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Is this your way of backing out from your impending legal doom of Palladium? If you start backpedaling any faster from your hundreds of legal proclamations, you'll end up in Neverland Ranch.

 warboss wrote:
Is this your way of backing out from your impending legal doom of Palladium? If you start backpedaling any faster from your hundreds of legal proclamations, you'll end up in Neverland Ranch.

oh no, only way PB can stop that is if they refund my money then I have no choice.

or show actual physical proof of something being done but its going to have to be something amazing.

Honestly speaking, they probably should nix the rest of the plastics and just do the Wave 2 stuff in resin/metal. That way they woudn't need to cut the units quite so much and it would be cheaper (yes, materials are costlier... but I don't think even they can fool themselves into thinking they're going to sell enough of the Wave 2 stuff to justify doing it in plastics).

Also, doing the Super Valkyries as resin additional parts and plastic sprues would probably work, and they have already half the stuff done ^_^

TBH, that's the only way I see Wave 2 actually happening.

The MAC-II monster can probably work in plastic, because it's a lot of resin to cast, and it's a showcase model that would sell reasonably well. Also the Supers, because it's a just small upgrade sprue of the Super / Strike bits.

But small, ugly stuff like the Jotun? Yeah, resin.

Metal where applicable seems prudent. While there was critique about the resulting figures, GHQ's entries to the line seem to have been generally well received and were produced in a timely fashion. If they were willing to work on the others, that could help.

Of course, there's also humour in the idea of PB adding *yet another company* to the mix if they went in search of a Resin partner for some reason. Nope, no way that could go wrong at all!

That said, shipping weight could also become an issue. 27 figures per battle cry in metal (especially with 3 MPA and 3 FPA in there) could start adding up, not to mention multiple BC orders and all the add ons.

 Albertorius wrote:
Honestly speaking, they probably should nix the rest of the plastics and just do the Wave 2 stuff in resin/metal. That way they woudn't need to cut the units quite so much and it would be cheaper (yes, materials are costlier... but I don't think even they can fool themselves into thinking they're going to sell enough of the Wave 2 stuff to justify doing it in plastics).

Also, doing the Super Valkyries as resin additional parts and plastic sprues would probably work, and they have already half the stuff done ^_^

TBH, that's the only way I see Wave 2 actually happening.

You're probably right but that would fly in the face of Palladium's long standing motto... "By Siembieda's Hammer, never give up! Never refund! Never surrender!"

"You guys love the pewter LE figures, right? Now imagine if ALL of them were like the LE figures? Super excited!? YAH!"

... okay to be honest, the mixed materials in the product line making some people's OCD kick in does make me giggle a little.

And yes, I'm aware some people hate working with metal and/or resin.

Sorry but I backed for ABS plastic, and ABS plastic better be what I get or a refund.

 Forar wrote:
Metal where applicable seems prudent. While there was critique about the resulting figures, GHQ's entries to the line seem to have been generally well received and were produced in a timely fashion. If they were willing to work on the others, that could help.

Of course, there's also humour in the idea of PB adding *yet another company* to the mix if they went in search of a Resin partner for some reason. Nope, no way that could go wrong at all!

That said, shipping weight could also become an issue. 27 figures per battle cry in metal (especially with 3 MPA and 3 FPA in there) could start adding up, not to mention multiple BC orders and all the add ons.

Except of course for the fact that resin was stated in the KS for certain items (SDF-1, anyone?)

So they will need a resin caster anyway, 'cause who the frak wants a metal SDF-1 that'll fall to bits any time you look at it funny and could be classed as an offensive weapon. They already need to look at "another company", so there is no benefit to looking at working it all in metal - except that possible they are already working with one rather than all running round like headless chickens clucking "We've had sooooo much trouble working in plastic, we don't want to go through all that again in resin, let's run all the resin stuff we promised in metal as we are already in bed with someone that does it!"

Look, obviously I'm not white knight'ing these guys, but my understanding is that the KS TOU lays out that the creators need to make a good faith effort to deliver their product. What's more important, that people get Super VT's, or that the Super VT's are in plastic?

This isn't even bending the intent of KS, by my reading; "sorry guys, we tried for literally years and couldn't make it happen in a timely or cost effective manner, so we're going to have to send you the rest of your stuff in resin/metal" would be infinitely more reasonable than "we're totes going to work on this gak for another 5 years and still fail to deliver".

Hell, having figures in a reasonable part count alone would be an improvement.

And let's be real; we just went over this, plastic is sensible when you're going to move enough units to justify the heightened mold costs. If Wave One is selling shabbily enough (as people keep assuming), doing wave two in plastic isn't financially prudent, hell it might even be financial suicide. "Oh, so we're going to spend $10,000 on mold, materials, and shipping, in order to sell off $5k-10k in figures"? I'm sure someone's done the math, they know (or can find out) what the order numbers on wave one, and more importantly, the restock demand.

Annoyed as I am, I'm not expecting PB to actively point the gun at their own heads (god knows they point it at their own foot often enough).

If they said "hey guys, the good news is you'll have your stuff in the next 4-6 months, GHQ is already doing the first run of figures as we speak", I don't think I'd be put off enough to care. Compared to "sorry guys, nothing to show after half a year", I'll take "less than ideal" over "nothing".

 warboss wrote:

You're probably right but that would fly in the face of Palladium's long standing motto... "By Siembieda's Hammer, never give up! Never refund! Never surrender!"

Never accept responsibility! Never admit culpability!

I would accept an all resin or all metal wave 2 collection sent to me IF AND ONLY IF palladium were never making a plastic version. I wouldn't accept a version that I fell is less preferable just to have them bring the version I want to market later.

And I'm all for RESIN. I have said that the character models and exclusives SHOULD be resin in preference to plastic.

I just believe that as resin was always part of the KS, any change of material should be to resin first and only to metal as a last resort as I can't see any significant savings over metal.

The savings resin gives over plastic for limited run items can be more than significant, certainly more than people are paying per model in a BC.

I have no real preference and wouldn't mind Resin any more or less than Metal.

And while GHQ seems to have done acceptable work (in general, wasp waisted MPA noted), as noted, PB does need to do some bits (objectives, bases, SDF-1, possibly others) in resin, so they do need a company that works in resin at some point.

If that company can deliver a quality product in a timely fashion, go nuts! My connection to metal was mostly that GHQ actually managed to deliver.

But yeah, either would be fine by me as well.

My main point is that of all the bullgak that has gone on, change of material (again, while less than ideal) wouldn't remotely be their biggest offense in this gakshow of a campaign, and may even be well within KS standards (and I'm sure someone will say their lawyer will disagree, and they can rail against my hypothetical compromise all they want).

ok PB can not do metal or resin for the bulk of wave 2, it is not cost effective and would cost more then plastic (plastic has a high front end cost, but gets cheaper after awhile) Metal/Resin has a straight cost throughout.

My understanding is that plastic is only cheaper as economy of scale kicks in; the molds are suuuuper expensive, but the materials costs are peanuts, so once you kick out X,000 or XY,000 sprues, the cost per unit drops dramatically.

If they can't expect to sell more than half of that sum, there's no financial advantage. It'd literally just be pissing away money.

Resin and metal are supposedly better for smaller runs of figures, and as someone who has claimed many times that wave one isn't selling well, surely you can't argue that wave two will see such massive demand as to need to be done that way?

So if they could do resin and/or metal faster and/or more cheaply (in aggregate, with higher materials costs but lower mold costs, while accounting for more frequent mold replacements, changes to shipping costs based on weight changes, etc, etc, etc), I'm not seeing a downside.

 warboss wrote:
I would accept an all resin or all metal wave 2 collection sent to me IF AND ONLY IF palladium were never making a plastic version. I wouldn't accept a version that I fell is less preferable just to have them bring the version I want to market later.

The pricing would be the killer. I'm sure there's some proprietary markup on the Consclusives (ie, you pay more, cause hey, "limited" run). But if they went to metal, it'd likely be just to close out the Kickstarter. It'd likely be the end of RRT.

Because even if you halved the price of the Super Valk Guardian for retail (and I don't think there's that much "limited" markup in there), you're looking at $66 for a pair of Super Valks at retail (plus increased shipping costs due to weight). Even the PB jack up 25% that they applied to the Wave 1 boxes only puts the plastic Super Valks at $43.75. And then it becomes a circling the drain thing. While backers get theirs, the price is too significant to make it a retail success. And without some success there, plastics become less likely, as the market need to have sufficient growth to justify the milling and initial production run.

That's of course, assuming they have the funds to do it. Even if you assume the cost to PB is $3* per model in aggregate (including sculpting/casting/casting material/print material/shipping from GHQ to PB), you're looking at what, 6500 BC's x 23 missing models** x $3, you're already at $450K. That's not counting the third of funding that went in addons, or the significantly increased shipping costs involved.

* And I think that's likely a woefully undercosted value.
** Assuming they just give stock plastic versions of the Guardians/Fighters for Rick/Roy as is rumoured.

While the idea of finishing out the Kickstarter in metal seems like a noble idea, I just don't see it as even close to economically viable for Palladium. I think they're literally past the point of no return. It's "Plastic or bust" at this point, I think. And that's assuming a material change of this magnitude isn't a breach of some kind. Else, why not make them out of some kind of paper standees, if material changes aren't an issue?

 Forar wrote:
My understanding is that plastic is only cheaper as economy of scale kicks in; the molds are suuuuper expensive, but the materials costs are peanuts, so once you kick out X,000 or XY,000 sprues, the cost per unit drops dramatically.

If they can't expect to sell more than half of that sum, there's no financial advantage. It'd literally just be pissing away money.

Resin and metal are supposedly better for smaller runs of figures, and as someone who has claimed many times that wave one isn't selling well, surely you can't argue that wave two will see such massive demand as to need to be done that way?

So if they could do resin and/or metal faster and/or more cheaply (in aggregate, with higher materials costs but lower mold costs, while accounting for more frequent mold replacements, changes to shipping costs based on weight changes, etc, etc, etc), I'm not seeing a downside.

thats where your wrong, if they are going to do a lower point run then they can go with a cheaper mold for plastics which would be about the same cost as a metal one, and then produce the models for less the amount, but the issue is on certain minis I can see doing resin and/or metal since costs will be low (SDF-1 people ) but doing base units like MPA's and FPAs, super valks and so on will not be cheaper in the long run.

I'm not so sure there is a 'long run' though.

 Forar wrote:

So if they could do resin and/or metal faster and/or more cheaply (in aggregate, with higher materials costs but lower mold costs, while accounting for more frequent mold replacements, changes to shipping costs based on weight changes, etc, etc, etc), I'm not seeing a downside.

Palladium would have to spend the rest of the money that they're currently holding onto for a rainy day (for the impending RickFury's legal defense fund). I don't believe they have any real progress or potential to get out wave 2 in its entirety at this point and are just stalling. That is the impression I get.


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Asterios wrote:

thats where your wrong, if they are going to do a lower point run then they can go with a cheaper mold for plastics which would be about the same cost as a metal one, and then produce the models for less the amount, but the issue is on certain minis I can see doing resin and/or metal since costs will be low (SDF-1 people ) but doing base units like MPA's and FPAs, super valks and so on will not be cheaper in the long run.

A mold for resin or metal minis would likely cost them a few hundred dollars... but they'd probably need a half dozen or more for each mini to do the entire KS print run as they wear out quickly. The other benefit though would be that it wouldn't have to be done in China though so that would save them time/money on shipping as well. Do we know that they haven't already gone with cheaper moulds? I don't recall if the wave one moulds were steel or aluminum or if they even specified it.

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm not so sure there is a 'long run' though.

My point exactly. If they're expecting to run hundreds of thousands of these things, it makes sense. If they expect to just fulfill wave 2 to backers and perhaps have some left over on the web store (with the potential to do another round of molds if the demand spikes), that makes less sense.

Plastic, by my understanding, is the 'long run' option; you spend a ton up front and then recoup it by making a gakload of sprues off it. If there is no long run though, it's just paying a gakload up front to... do one print run and call it a day on the hopes whatever goes to retail makes back the money. That's not a winning proposition.

I mean, while we're spitballing alternative options, I sure hope someone has at least napkin-math'd out the costs of a refund, like we've sorted out, at least for context against the costs of others (proceeding with plastic, risking dealing with litigation, going to metal and/or resin, etc). If it all shakes out that they can't do wave two in any means for less than 500k-1m, and reasonable refunds (say full add ons, 1/4 BC tier cost) came to only 300k-400k, that could be a path to follow.

Yes yes yes yes yes, I too doubt they're sitting comfy on half a mil either way.

But the point stands; evaluating every option at hand would be the smart thing to do, even if some (or hell, all) of those options are currently unrealistic.

Morgan Vening wrote:

While the idea of finishing out the Kickstarter in metal seems like a noble idea, I just don't see it as even close to economically viable for Palladium. I think they're literally past the point of no return. It's "Plastic or bust" at this point, I think. And that's assuming a material change of this magnitude isn't a breach of some kind. Else, why not make them out of some kind of paper standees, if material changes aren't an issue?

Let's not get absurd. Metal and resin and plastic are generally (but not universally) acceptable mediums for miniatures and to a limited degree (depending on the sculpt, cost, and consumer) interchangeable. Paper is not. You might as well make it out of cow dung as that would be an equally absurd counterpoint. I'm sorry that this is a bit snippy but your suggestion of "why not just make it out of paper?" is just ridiculous. We're trying to discuss at least potentially viable alternatives.

Is the change of materials a breach of contract? Sure... but it is one that might result in us actually getting something physical for our money instead of just the runaround and aggravation. As forar said, a potential change of materials would only be the latest in the string of unilateral Darth Vader-esque breaches on the part of Palladium and the only one that might actually benefit us, the valued backers for whom this project wouldn't be possible without. If they can't afford to make the full run in ANY available acceptable material, they need to cut back on the unlocks and sculpts until they can. First, get rid of the special characters. They're just resculpts of other minis. If that isn't enough, start cutting back on the last unlocks until they get to a point that is viable. I'd much rather have a MAC, super valks, VEF/VT-D, FPA/MPA, zent infantry, gnerls, and armored valks in ANY material in hand and "miss out" on lancers and ghosts and experimental who the feth cares sometime next year than have nothing forever. I see those as the only two realistic options going forward and it's obvious that palladium prefers the latter given their 8 month lack of discernable progress and contempt for backers.

 Forar wrote:
Hell, having figures in a reasonable part count alone would be an improvement.

FFS, part count, again?

Having figures AT ALL would be an improvement.

If the average part count grows by 30% per model, that would be fine AS LONG AS I GET MY MODELS.

feth, I only build the things once. They could double the parts count on the Monster to capture every detail, and I'd be satisfied. It's a fething showcase model. IDGAF if it's a zillion pieces. It's not like I haven't built fully-posable, fully-transformable Robotech Super Veritech models before...

But I sure as feth can't build what I don't have.





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 warboss wrote:
I would accept an all resin or all metal wave 2 collection sent to me IF AND ONLY IF palladium were never making a plastic version.

If Palladium makes the kit(s) in resin or metal, they will never make them in plastic. The KS is a defined, large preorder that would actually justify the production efficiency. Having to resculpt and recut molds for mass production after this fustercluck? Never gonna happen. They won't have the volume, or the revenue.

J, dude, I specifically said getting figures is better than not getting figures like 3 times.

And then pointed out a small side benefit.

Seriously, ffs right back atcha.

Heaven forbid someone see a silver lining in a hypothetical that probably won't happen, just keep gakking on that parade bro!

The point is first things first.
1. Deliver the stuff!
2. Make the stuff "better"

The first isn't happening, and the second is just an attempt to divert attention from the truth about the first.

 warboss wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

While the idea of finishing out the Kickstarter in metal seems like a noble idea, I just don't see it as even close to economically viable for Palladium. I think they're literally past the point of no return. It's "Plastic or bust" at this point, I think. And that's assuming a material change of this magnitude isn't a breach of some kind. Else, why not make them out of some kind of paper standees, if material changes aren't an issue?

Let's not get absurd. Metal and resin and plastic are generally (but not universally) acceptable mediums for miniatures and to a limited degree (depending on the sculpt, cost, and consumer) interchangeable. Paper is not. You might as well make it out of cow dung as that would be an equally absurd counterpoint. I'm sorry that this is a bit snippy but your suggestion of "why not just make it out of paper?" is just ridiculous. We're trying to discuss at least potentially viable alternatives.

I admit, I was just going to the absurd with the paper thing. But that doesn't mean it's not at the far end of that particular scale. They could save money by going away from ABS. There are several inferior grades (from a modelling standpoint) of plastic. PVC, Restic, a whole bunch others. At some point, there's a point of unacceptability. I just went to the most absurd "realistic" version. I could have said sculpted mashed potatoes (Close Encounters was on the TV as I was writing the post). I went with paper because of the mention on KS Comments that the paper cutouts were up on Drivethru (which ironically, is down for maintenance as I write this).

 warboss wrote:
Is the change of materials a breach of contract? Sure... but it is one that might result in us actually getting something physical for our money instead of just the runaround and aggravation. As forar said, a potential change of materials would only be the latest in the string of unilateral Darth Vader-esque breaches on the part of Palladium and the only one that might actually benefit us, the valued backers for whom this project wouldn't be possible without. If they can't afford to make the full run in ANY available acceptable material, they need to cut back on the unlocks and sculpts until they can. First, get rid of the special characters. They're just resculpts of other minis. If that isn't enough, start cutting back on the last unlocks until they get to a point that is viable. I'd much rather have a MAC, super valks, VEF/VT-D, FPA/MPA, zent infantry, gnerls, and armored valks in ANY material in hand and "miss out" on lancers and ghosts and experimental who the feth cares sometime next year than have nothing forever. I see those as the only two realistic options going forward and it's obvious that palladium prefers the latter given their 8 month lack of discernable progress and contempt for backers.

Agreed on most everything you've said. I disagree with cutting back on sculpts, not because I don't think it's a good idea, but because I think it's as likely to end in refund demands as not. Now, the proportionality might help them there (ie, a couple of percent of a refund, rather than 25-40%), but it could be tricky is a significant number of backers aren't willing to accept it. Because it is a sliding scale, between complete fulfillment, and what you've already got. For example, subtract the Gnerls from your list. Still happy to take that? Subtract the Super Valks? Still happy? At some point, likely before it gets to nothing, you won't. And some people will have a much higher initial threshold. Not getting the MPA experimentals? Fine. But losing the Ghosts or Lancers (or both) would be a dealbreaker). There's 5000+ backers. I'm sure at every possible removal there'd be some for who it'd be a step too far.

And that's not discounting either that PB could consider that a failure (and they won't accept that), or they literally have nothing left. What if all they have is funds for two models to be completed? Or, what happens if they can do what you listed (give or take), you get those, and then they go retail with the rest? Personally, the idea of PB making any profit on RRT after backers took a content cut, would be pretty distasteful. Heck, they make enough on retail to do an additional model? Then what happens? Cause once the KS has been declared "paid out", I'm pretty sure backers are hosed.

Yeah, most of what I've said is hypothetical, at best. But they're in a hole, and I honestly don't think they can or would accept a half-measure out. That's why I said "Plastics or bust". I just don't see them accepting any other option.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The point is first things first.
1. Deliver the stuff!
2. Make the stuff "better"

It's part and parcel; if they went metal or resin, that's a side benefit.

Like... they're intrinsically linked. We've seen GHQ's metal figures, it's not like they'd be casting the heads in 3 pieces and the arms in 4 if using metal.

Morgan Vening wrote:

Agreed on most everything you've said. I disagree with cutting back on sculpts, not because I don't think it's a good idea, but because I think it's as likely to end in refund demands as not. *snip* For example, subtract the Gnerls from your list. Still happy to take that? Subtract the Super Valks? Still happy? At some point, likely before it gets to nothing, you won't. And some people will have a much higher initial threshold. Not getting the MPA experimentals? Fine. But losing the Ghosts or Lancers (or both) would be a dealbreaker). There's 5000+ backers. I'm sure at every possible removal there'd be some for who it'd be a step too far.

It's obvious that there would be unhappy folks no matter which ones you cut but you can't please everyone all the time. There is a wide range though between that and displeasing everyone all the time (except for a dozen employess, freelancers, and wannabe's who are just megaversal ambassadors currently on the forums). That's why I suggested going back on the unlocks in order instead of just cherry picking the ones I don't like. It's open and impartial as you can get.

And that's not discounting either that PB could consider that a failure (and they won't accept that), or they literally have nothing left. What if all they have is funds for two models to be completed?

Then it would be obvious that they misused the money in a criminal fashion and NOTHING we suggest here would work including your paper minis. Also, on a side note, if they made the minis out of mashed potatoes with gravy decals then we'd finally have mouth watering minis after all these years!

Or, what happens if they can do what you listed (give or take), you get those, and then they go retail with the rest? Personally, the idea of PB making any profit on RRT after backers took a content cut, would be pretty distasteful. Heck, they make enough on retail to do an additional model? Then what happens? Cause once the KS has been declared "paid out", I'm pretty sure backers are hosed.

In my little scenario, they wouldn't be able to go to retail with the rest of the skipped minis unless they gave those to backers free as well. What I'm presenting is a one and done solution where whatever they make they make and they go to retail with only that. They'd basically be washing their hands of us and the robotech license except for selling what they've already designed and produced. They don't get to screw over backers AND then offer the products they screwed them out of for sale.

 warboss wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

Agreed on most everything you've said. I disagree with cutting back on sculpts, not because I don't think it's a good idea, but because I think it's as likely to end in refund demands as not. *snip* For example, subtract the Gnerls from your list. Still happy to take that? Subtract the Super Valks? Still happy? At some point, likely before it gets to nothing, you won't. And some people will have a much higher initial threshold. Not getting the MPA experimentals? Fine. But losing the Ghosts or Lancers (or both) would be a dealbreaker). There's 5000+ backers. I'm sure at every possible removal there'd be some for who it'd be a step too far.

It's obvious that there would be unhappy folks no matter which ones you cut but you can't please everyone all the time. There is a wide range though between that and displeasing everyone all the time (except for a dozen employess, freelancers, and wannabe's who are just megaversal ambassadors currently on the forums). That's why I suggested going back on the unlocks in order instead of just cherry picking the ones I don't like. It's open and impartial as you can get.

It is open, and impartial, but it's also not really responsible. While I know it's a piece that provokes emotion, the Monster is likely going to be three if not more sprues. For an item I'd be surprised went to more than a quarter of backers. Whereas the Ghosts/Lancers, there's 13,000 of each owed, and they could concievably be a single sprue if they're not focusing so much on retail. Similarly, 19500 Gnerls and MPA's are owed, again, potentially handled by a single mold. And I doubt most backers would prefer Zentradi Heavy Infantry over FPA or Armored Valks, but the ZHI was unlocked earlier. I'm just pointing out there's no simple solution, and even an impartial one is going to have some people flipping tables.

 warboss wrote:

And that's not discounting either that PB could consider that a failure (and they won't accept that), or they literally have nothing left. What if all they have is funds for two models to be completed?

Then it would be obvious that they misused the money in a criminal fashion and NOTHING we suggest here would work including your paper minis. Also, on a side note, if they made the minis out of mashed potatoes with gravy decals then we'd finally have mouth watering minis after all these years!

BWA! Though I'm not sure international backers would want to eat them, given the 6 monthish timeframe Wave 1 took to deliver.

 warboss wrote:

Or, what happens if they can do what you listed (give or take), you get those, and then they go retail with the rest? Personally, the idea of PB making any profit on RRT after backers took a content cut, would be pretty distasteful. Heck, they make enough on retail to do an additional model? Then what happens? Cause once the KS has been declared "paid out", I'm pretty sure backers are hosed.

In my little scenario, they wouldn't be able to go to retail with the rest of the skipped minis unless they gave those to backers free as well. What I'm presenting is a one and done solution where whatever they make they make and they go to retail with only that. They'd basically be washing their hands of us and the robotech license except for selling what they've already designed and produced. They don't get to screw over backers AND then offer the products they screwed them out of for sale.

It'd be kind of a hard thing to enforce though. Once the Kickstarter is done, and I doubt PB would do it if there was a lien on future earnings, as per the KSFAQ, "Project creators keep 100% ownership of their work.". If the game was to end up successful (a monumental task), I don't see what'd stop them from being able to do more in the future. I mean, it's not like PB care considerably about how they're perceived, or that they haven't gone back on their word to backers multiple times in the past. Would you really trust them if they said they wouldn't do any more going forward? Or that yes, all backers would get, for free, anything owed they eventually produced?