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I didn't back that one. From what people have commented on in other threads, many complaints seem to have been about the quality of the minis/components? Without going into a four page history, is there an abridged version that kind of lays out the failings of that one? Late? Crappy? Bad rules? What went down?

 Forar wrote:
I would like to point out that "sell off what you have and be done with it" is a bit harder to do when competing with CoolStuffInc's sales, a niche of a niche of a niche fanbase/playerbase, and the fact that between outstanding wave 2 figures (battle cry and add ons) people may still be in for a solid chunk of change ($100+).

Just as an FYI, it took me several months to sell my RDF/UEDF stuff (the rules, templates, etc. from the starter, the UEDF minis, and an extra destroid squad) for half the price of the starter new on sprue. I suspect that is alot different than your experience when you sold stuff shortly after wave 1 arrived.



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 Forar wrote:
I didn't back that one. From what people have commented on in other threads, many complaints seem to have been about the quality of the minis/components? Without going into a four page history, is there an abridged version that kind of lays out the failings of that one? Late? Crappy? Bad rules? What went down?

All of the above. I didn't back but followed the thread closely (and it almost became the first KS I ever backer). Minis sucked due to PVC material with lots of difficult to remove flash and the minis were IIRC out of scale with each other. I don't recall if it was late but the rulebook got a second version within 6 months of the first KS copies going out (effectively making those copies outdated). There might have even been a third version before complete fulfillment but I'm not completely sure. There might have been issues with warped tiles as well. I get all the bad kickstarters confused now. Some folks expected CMON zombie game (can't recall the name) style skyrocketing secondary market values but instead the core box was selling online at half price within a year instead. There were some clear "invisible" minis that folks liked though and the bases got some praise.

 Forar wrote:
I didn't back that one.

Without going into a four page history, is there an abridged version that kind of lays out the failings of that one? Late? Crappy? Bad rules? What went down?

Bullet dodged! +1 Achivement.

Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. My take is here.

 Forar wrote:
I would like to point out that "sell off what you have and be done with it" is a bit harder to do when competing with CoolStuffInc's sales, a niche of a niche of a niche fanbase/playerbase, and the fact that between outstanding wave 2 figures (battle cry and add ons) people may still be in for a solid chunk of change ($100+).

Hell, the friends that I backed with are in for like $200+ in add ons alone, plus 8 battle cry tiers between us (however you cut it, a substantial amount of money).

Frankly, PB doesn't get off the hook that easily. If they don't want to pay out or deliver, they will get to deal with those 5k+ upset nerds. And while I and many others might not have legal avenues available, something like 4k'ish of the backer base are Americans, so... yeah, good luck with that.

My point with that comment is sell it off now while it's still worth something if that's what you are planning to do. From a legal standpoint, nobody is getting their money back. Period. Thinking that way is wishful thinking at best. Any and all costs to fight a legal battle will net the people that will sue...nothing other than the satisfaction of potentially ending the company...or ending it all together. Any money that will be left from Palladium will be to pay for legal fees, closing up shop, debt owed to banks/ creditors, etc. It's like those class action lawsuits...your cut after everything amounts to like $20 after the settlement pays for money to lawyers, and everything else..because backers are small fish. Frankly, going that route is a no win situation and at this point, anyone wanting to jump ship should do it now, sell their stuff for whatever they can get for it while time is on there side. If that's how they feel. Because if they wait...and if, in fact, a lawsuit vs. PB sticks...your models will have no dollar value. at. all. So what's it going to be? Hang on to them and hope? Or get as much of your money back now? I can totally understand the backers plight...but if they think they are getting their money back by lawsuits...that's wishful thinking...but I'm not going to discourage them from trying. Just don't expect you'll get refunded anything. If I was a backer that was dissatisfied I'd just simply sell it...and chalk it up to a bad experience. The money is gone and has been spent...I'll never get it all back regardless...and I can always make more money. :shrug: That's the realist in me. My gut tells me that Wave 2 will get done at some point. The timeline will just be longer than anyone has the stomach for unfortunately...and the game will be irrelevant by then because of PB not doing what I originally posted about. They are not supporting the game as a flagship game and never have. That was their most fatal mistake in all of this. I however, will still support any attempt to keep the game going as it deserves a chance to exist and I will still support any efforts (even crappy ones) to release additional stuff beyond Wave 2 by PB because it allows me to further enjoy the game. I'm loving the Female Power armor...and I'm glad I bought two full units worth of convention exclusive models to pull that off.


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Joyboozer wrote:
Captkruthors, I agree with everything you posted and think you should post it as a topic everywhere you can, maybe even submit it as an article at Beasts if War.

I've made posts like this in other forums as well...even on their own website forum. Nobody is really listening. As for writing an article...that requires good writing skills and time. Neither of which I have. If someone wants to take my bullet points and do their own article based on those bullet points and ideas...they can have at it. My focus is playing the game, enjoying the game, and getting others to follow suit. Like I said, I already got 4 new people playing beyond myself and my friend...so that's a start. The more people I can turn on to the game the better the Robotech community gets in my area.

As I've said before, if PB won't deliver, I see no reason they should exist. Simple as that.

As for the existing product, it will be liquidated for pennies on the dollar - same as today.

But we will at least have the satisfaction of seeing a fraud, a liar, a charlatan made destitute and bankrupt, as his final legacy.

And it's not like other Macross models won't be available.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As I've said before, if PB won't deliver, I see no reason they should exist. Simple as that.

As for the existing product, it will be liquidated for pennies on the dollar - same as today.

But we will at least have the satisfaction of seeing a fraud, a liar, a charlatan made destitute and bankrupt, as his final legacy.

And it's not like other Macross models won't be available.

Great. Meanwhile guys like me will see a game they enjoy end. Awesome. I'm not in it for just the models. I'm in it for the game itself. It's a good game...I'd even say it's a great game (despite some minor flaws). I like Robotech. A lot. I like the fact that there is now a game for Robotech that's a wargame..not an RPG or video game. If I wanted just models to build and look at...there are plenty of options out there from other model companies that produce better models for display. I don't need a lawsuit to get "revenge" or get "even" as a means of feeling better. Any and all misery will be brought on by PB and PB only. They don't need a lawsuit to doom them at this point...they are doing just fine doing that themselves it seems :shrug:

 warboss wrote:
Just as an FYI, it took me several months to sell my RDF/UEDF stuff (the rules, templates, etc. from the starter, the UEDF minis, and an extra destroid squad) for half the price of the starter new on sprue. I suspect that is alot different than your experience when you sold stuff shortly after wave 1 arrived.

An FYI to others, of course. I spent a couple of months selling my stuff off as well. Kept a bit less than 1 Battle Cry worth, sold the rest off on secondary markets. Made back a good portion of the money I spent, but the 3 BC's worth of Wave 2 and my add ons still amount for a considerable chunk of change.

Which I may or may not ever see, that I came to terms with long ago, before anyone bothers to point it out. That won't stop me from continuing to be a thorn in PB's side with little but the facts and history on my side. I'd rather they finish things off one way or another, but hey, as far as hobbies go, it entertains me enough to banter with ladies and gents around the internet about shared terrible service.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
My point with that comment is sell it off now while it's still worth something if that's what you are planning to do. From a legal standpoint, nobody is getting their money back. Period. Thinking that way is wishful thinking at best. Any and all costs to fight a legal battle will net the people that will sue...nothing other than the satisfaction of potentially ending the company...or ending it all together. Any money that will be left from Palladium will be to pay for legal fees, closing up shop, debt owed to banks/ creditors, etc. It's like those class action lawsuits...your cut after everything amounts to like $20 after the settlement pays for money to lawyers, and everything else..because backers are small fish. Frankly, going that route is a no win situation and at this point, anyone wanting to jump ship should do it now, sell their stuff for whatever they can get for it while time is on there side. If that's how they feel. Because if they wait...and if, in fact, a lawsuit vs. PB sticks...your models will have no dollar value. at. all. So what's it going to be? Hang on to them and hope? Or get as much of your money back now? I can totally understand the backers plight...but if they think they are getting their money back by lawsuits...that's wishful thinking...but I'm not going to discourage them from trying. Just don't expect you'll get refunded anything. If I was a backer that was dissatisfied I'd just simply sell it...and chalk it up to a bad experience. The money is gone and has been spent...I'll never get it all back regardless...and I can always make more money. :shrug: That's the realist in me. My gut tells me that Wave 2 will get done at some point. The timeline will just be longer than anyone has the stomach for unfortunately...and the game will be irrelevant by then because of PB not doing what I originally posted about. They are not supporting the game as a flagship game and never have. That was their most fatal mistake in all of this. I however, will still support any attempt to keep the game going as it deserves a chance to exist and I will still support any efforts (even crappy ones) to release additional stuff beyond Wave 2 by PB because it allows me to further enjoy the game. I'm loving the Female Power armor...and I'm glad I bought two full units worth of convention exclusive models to pull that off.

Despite what my flag is reporting, I am Canadian, not American (must be logging in through a VPN at work too often or something), so I'm not 'getting my money back' in a litigation sense either way. You also seem to be ascribing far more to my motives and actions than I've remotely stated. Kindly don't do that. Perhaps you might want to read through this thread and really get a sense of where things have gone over the last 5 months before Telling Us Like It Is, or perhaps even do that, AND the nearly 2 years worth of pages we generated in the original thread. This issue has been going on for a very long time, and there is a very interesting (and occasionally entertaining) sense of dawning and palpable horror. PB got plenty of benefit of the doubt back in 2013, and even some in 2014, but as the delays built, the model renders/prototypes showed, and the excuses/bus throwing grew, they lost a lot of that.

As I just said, I sold off most of my wave 1. My friends and I received over 500 figures worth of sprues, and of those over 200 were mine. I kept around 1/4 of them, and have built 12. My point about competing with a dwindling user base and CSI sales is that efforts to recoup costs may well be a ship that has sailed. I made back some funding undercutting even CSI, but I can't imagine it'd even be that easy nearly a year later, especially not with another round of Black Friday sales looming a mere 3 weeks away.

Also, if you've got the game you want, great, but if the fact that you had to drop $130'ish plus shipping just to field 6 FPA isn't a warning sign, I don't know what is. Going to plastic is supposed to be the cost effective option when done in bulk, if the only way they can feasibly do these figures in a timely fashion is by charging people $20 per figure (more than most X-Wing pre-built/pre-painted units, mind you), then clearly someone fethed up something bad here.

So hey, welcome to the party, but before you Drop Some Knowledge About Litigation, you might want to read up on the matter a bit more, because while that's an emphasis for some folks (and it's been going on long enough frankly we egg them on just to see them finally make a move), it's a larger matter than simply 'oh, another bunch of whiny backers'.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Great. Meanwhile guys like me will see a game they enjoy end. Awesome. I'm not in it for just the models. I'm in it for the game itself. It's a good game...I'd even say it's a great game (despite some minor flaws). I like Robotech. A lot. I like the fact that there is now a game for Robotech that's a wargame..not an RPG or video game. If I wanted just models to build and look at...there are plenty of options out there from other model companies that produce better models for display. I don't need a lawsuit to get "revenge" or get "even" as a means of feeling better. Any and all misery will be brought on by PB and PB only. They don't need a lawsuit to doom them at this point...they are doing just fine doing that themselves it seems :shrug:

PB being wiped from existence would have what effect on that? The minis will still be available, whether alternative manufacturers of Macross minis, or, quite likely, unopened packages on the secondary market for years to come.

PB will not produce anything more for this game - as you yourself said, the money is gone. Anything that happens for this game from this point forward will involve the hobbyists out there - whether it's Mike producing rules for existing miniatures or Rick actually going through the trouble of making his own Invid minis.

If they're never going to come out with wave two (admittedly not your position, Karuthors), what harm is there in suing them and just hastening the inevitable? In the end, Palladium doesn't come to your house to grab your minis back and you wouldn't have gotten wave 2 regardless. The only effect a lawsuit would have in this case is getting Palladium to admit in 2016 that they're officially screwing us over instead of waiting till 2019. In the meantime, you get to enjoy games with your existing minis and whatever fanmade stuff comes out that you get unaffected by the result.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
My point with that comment is sell it off now while it's still worth something if that's what you are planning to do. From a legal standpoint, nobody is getting their money back. Period. Thinking that way is wishful thinking at best. Any and all costs to fight a legal battle will net the people that will sue...nothing other than the satisfaction of potentially ending the company...or ending it all together. Any money that will be left from Palladium will be to pay for legal fees, closing up shop, debt owed to banks/ creditors, etc. It's like those class action lawsuits...your cut after everything amounts to like $20 after the settlement pays for money to lawyers, and everything else..because backers are small fish.

While that'd be true of a class action, early inidvidual suits, especially if handled personally or pro-bono by a friend/relation MAY see some return on their money. PM might settle, especially if it's in the average range ($260 or so). That'd probably end in a run on the company as people try to get theirs out before it goes bankrupt, but to say noone can possibly get a return, especially if there's a settlement with an NDA attached, rather than PB fighting to the desperate end. Is it selfish? Sure. But that's the way this kind of thing works.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
My gut tells me that Wave 2 will get done at some point. The timeline will just be longer than anyone has the stomach for unfortunately...and the game will be irrelevant by then because of PB not doing what I originally posted about.

If that's the case, then PB are probably better off NOT doing Wave 2. If the game's going to be irrelevant, and a commercial failure, then why bother continuing development? Kevin isn't going to change the way he operates, so your list of changes to make stuff isn't going to get applied. If the timeline is "longer than anyone has the stomach for", and PB's communication doesn't improve, and right quick, then someone's going to pull the trigger just from spite. Because I'd bet my house that the money to complete Wave 2 exceeds the money remaining from funding.

You mentioned in your post that the money's spent. But it's hard to take that, and then accept the premise that they should still support PB, when they've got nothing but promises that they'll get anything back. As the others before me have said, if the money's gone, and Wave 2 can't or won't eventuate, then PB don't deserve to survive. As much as you like the game, there doesn't seem to be much difference between the current status quo, and PB being dead. Fans doing work, and no new product.

Heck, if PB died, then it might actually speed things up. Mike would have had the Conventional Forces stuff out months ago. I believe the Blast Rules were sitting at PB for longer. Not having to go through the multi-stage approval process for every little thing might make it more efficient, and have the upside of Mike and Jaymz not get frustrated to the point of "feth it, I'm out". And they're not the only ones involved that have thrown in the towel because of the entrenched intransigence of Palladium.

And it's not as if company death is the end of a game. Sure, for some games, that's it. But off the top of my head, Epic and Bloodbowl, and have survived the death of their support. And other games, like Warzone, have seen the death of the company as well, and seen it reborn under a new management. Granted, none of these games are going gangbusters, but they're doing at least as well as RRT under PB management. Heck, I can find significant support for any of them online. Much more than I can for RRT. Heck, I see more people playing Silent Death at any single GenCon in the last ten years, than has been reported of all RRT tournaments to date. So, maybe moving on is the best thing for the game itself.

You have to remember to that, despite WRRDs insitence there were others interested in doing a robotech miniatures game, just not with Palladium involved.
Him taking it to Palladium and them once again squatting on the license killed that off completey.
These were people with years of experience in manufacture and logistics.Palladium have zero interest in doing anymore than what they were doing, they dont want to grow, that just means more work ad being open to more criticism.
They couldn't care less if this game succeeds, they just want to move the stock they have on hand.

Morgan Vening wrote:
Heck, if PB died, then it might actually speed things up.

And it's not as if company death is the end of a game.

If PB died, someone would buy the RRT molds and IP, just like D&D survived TSR. By many measures WotC / Hasbro is turning out to be a better steward of D&D than TSR ever was.

Of course, in that case PB would have to disclose to the world which resources they had actually managed to produce and the state of the things that hadn't been...

Merijeek wrote:
Of course, in that case PB would have to disclose to the world which resources they had actually managed to produce and the state of the things that hadn't been...

Don't worry.

Wayne will get them that info soon.

While we're on that note, let's see what the board says!

Days since the last update: 30
Days since Wayne said he'd give us a full breakdown on the status of all the pieces: **119**
Days since the last substantial Wave 2 info: 250

Days until the end of Q2 2016: 238 (current target)
Days until Gencon 2016: 271
Days until the end of 2016: 422

They have been silent on the status of Wave 2 for longer than they have left to produce wave 2. That remains highly amusing to me.

Despite what my flag is reporting, I am Canadian, not American (must be logging in through a VPN at work too often or something), so I'm not 'getting my money back' in a litigation sense either way.

I'm well aware that you are canadian. I've seen your posts on several forums. This isn't the only forum I frequent.

You also seem to be ascribing far more to my motives and actions than I've remotely stated. Kindly don't do that.

If you think that's what I'm doing then you are barking up the wrong tree. I don't care what you are doing either via a lawsuit..supporting a lawsuit, or even your posts on how many days have passed by (which by the way is interesting to see how much time palladium is wasting on not getting this done). Basically, carry on with what you are doing. I don't care.

Perhaps you might want to read through this thread and really get a sense of where things have gone over the last 5 months before Telling Us Like It Is, or perhaps even do that, AND the nearly 2 years worth of pages we generated in the original thread. This issue has been going on for a very long time, and there is a very interesting (and occasionally entertaining) sense of dawning and palpable horror. PB got plenty of benefit of the doubt back in 2013, and even some in 2014, but as the delays built, the model renders/prototypes showed, and the excuses/bus throwing grew, they lost a lot of that.

Um...I don't need to because I've already have done it. I've been following everything regarding this game since it was announced and the KS campaign started. I'm well aware of the goings on since then. You seem to think that suddenly I've come across this thread midway through or something. That isn't the case. I've lurked and contributed to many threads on this subject. The problem is that the amount of negativity about the game isn't helping. By now, we all get it. PB sucks, the whole situation sucks, they screwed over backers, they screwed over people like Mike who were willing to contribute to the game, etc. While it gives us a sense of catharticism..it really isn't helping to build a solid community to play the game.

As I just said, I sold off most of my wave 1. My friends and I received over 500 figures worth of sprues, and of those over 200 were mine. I kept around 1/4 of them, and have built 12. My point about competing with a dwindling user base and CSI sales is that efforts to recoup costs may well be a ship that has sailed. I made back some funding undercutting even CSI, but I can't imagine it'd even be that easy nearly a year later, especially not with another round of Black Friday sales looming a mere 3 weeks away.

I'm glad you were able to get some of your money back. That to me is the best solution for people that have given up and want to get out of the game and dealings with PB.

Also, if you've got the game you want, great, but if the fact that you had to drop $130'ish plus shipping just to field 6 FPA isn't a warning sign, I don't know what is.

If it costs me $132 to field two units of 3 female power armor, I don't care. I'll pay it to get the units I want/ need to play this game and have some unit diversity in my zentraedi army. I'm not interested in using paper proxies. I want the game pieces. Hell, $132 is cheap compared to the amount of stuff I've bought for 40k. Overall, this game is far more economical...regardless of the $22 price tag for the Con Exclusives...LOL.

Going to plastic is supposed to be the cost effective option when done in bulk, if the only way they can feasibly do these figures in a timely fashion is by charging people $20 per figure (more than most X-Wing pre-built/pre-painted units, mind you), then clearly someone fethed up something bad here.

Going to do this entire game in plastic was a dumb idea from the start. Doing the core units in plastic makes sense. For the other stuff that's primarily in Wave 2? Not at all. Maybe if there was some demand in the future...then sure...but the units in Wave 2 aren't used in large enough numbers in the game to justify spending the capital to make them all in plastic. Hell Eldar aspect warriors have been around since 1994 and GW hasn't deemed it necessary to make them in plastic other than Dire Avengers. It isn't a priority when the units aren't fielded in great numbers. It's not realistic for a small company like PB to do it all in plastic. That was their first biggest mistake. Most people play the game at 300pts. that means...most people are only going to have one..maybe two units of elite core choices...and that's it. The MAC 2? Maybe only one will ever be fielded...in a 300pt game. So the amount they'd sell is far to small for a plastic production run where the MOQs would be too costly. They should have made all or most of wave 2 in Resin or Pewter from the beginning...even stating as such during the actual KS campaign. That way, people would have known what they were in for. Unfortunately, PB has no idea on how to develop a war-game..and Ninja Division certainly didn't help in talking them into alternatives..at least that we know of.

So hey, welcome to the party, but before you Drop Some Knowledge About Litigation, you might want to read up on the matter a bit more, because while that's an emphasis for some folks (and it's been going on long enough frankly we egg them on just to see them finally make a move), it's a larger matter than simply 'oh, another bunch of whiny backers'.

I don't need to read up on anything. I've read every thread about legal matters regarding this Wave 2 debacle....and most lawyer friends I know have said that the backers aren't going to get a dime...OR if they are going to get any money at all...it will be not for the amount in which they paid in...in fact...it will be much, much less. So at that point, why bother? Just sell your stuff now and recoup as much money as you can. Otherwise, you can wait out a lawsuit..and roll the dice to see if you get any money back at all. For me, if I was in the backers shoes...I'd take what money I could get for what I'd sell. It's far more likely I'll get money in that gamble than I would going the route of a lawsuit.



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If PB died, someone would buy the RRT molds and IP, just like D&D survived TSR. By many measures WotC / Hasbro is turning out to be a better steward of D&D than TSR ever was.

Harmony Gold is too uptight about their Robotech IP. I don't think WotC or Hasbro would waste their time with it.

Someone made the lander seen in mospead in 1/285 scale. Looks good.


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Or is it southern cross? If it's not macross I really don't pay attention.

Mospaeda. Looks good, too. So do the Alphas and Betas next to it. Wouldn't mind seeing them close up.


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 CaptKaruthors wrote:
. I've read every thread about legal matters regarding this Wave 2 debacle....and most lawyer friends I know have said that the backers aren't going to get a dime...OR if they are going to get any money at all...it will be not for the amount in which they paid in...in fact...it will be much, much less. So at that point, why bother?

Because when a business accepts money for a product, they have three choices.

First, they can provide the paid for product.

Second, they can provide a refund.

Third, they can suffer the legal consequences of neither doing the first or the second.

Just because you'll happily throw money at them, whether or not they'll provide a product, doesn't mean the rest of the world should let them live consequence-free. Why you see it as a character flaw that people feel a business should stop existing when it is no longer producing (prepaid) products...I have no idea.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

Wrong I would rather see PB burn then continue to wait for them, they are a very disfunctional game company that does not deserve to continue to exist.

As to getting new pieces I'm already doing that myself I have been punching out new units left and right and Mike and Jaymz have been punching out Cards and rules, everyone is putting out new stuff for this game but PB, the ones who should be doing it.

and it is because of that, PB does not deserve this game nor any respect or support from anyone.

Also the reason PB did not produce the Comanchero is because it would have cost them much more money to make the molds and such, unlike the other units which GHQ had molds made of already.

Thank you for your insight.

GHQ made the convention exclusives...they could have made a comanchero and a cat's eye...at the same time and sold to the general public.

If you are making models of these units...care to share them then with the community? I know I'd like some Gnerls...

PS: find me a small game company that isn't disfunctional on some level

GHQ already had molds made of the other units so they cost them nothing, as to the comanchero it is a unique HG unit that they cannot sell.

as to the Gnerl already have a design but trying to figure out how to reduce its cost since it is a decent sized full model which makes it about $7-8 for one of them.

as to sharing my units? don't think so, the minute I sell, give, trade any of them PB will be able to shut me down not only on sales but also on my pending legal action against them.

Also who said I want to do anything that would help PB? the only thing I want to help them do is shut down so they can no longer screw people over like this.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

 Forar wrote:
I would like to point out that "sell off what you have and be done with it" is a bit harder to do when competing with CoolStuffInc's sales, a niche of a niche of a niche fanbase/playerbase, and the fact that between outstanding wave 2 figures (battle cry and add ons) people may still be in for a solid chunk of change ($100+).

Hell, the friends that I backed with are in for like $200+ in add ons alone, plus 8 battle cry tiers between us (however you cut it, a substantial amount of money).

Frankly, PB doesn't get off the hook that easily. If they don't want to pay out or deliver, they will get to deal with those 5k+ upset nerds. And while I and many others might not have legal avenues available, something like 4k'ish of the backer base are Americans, so... yeah, good luck with that.

My point with that comment is sell it off now while it's still worth something if that's what you are planning to do. From a legal standpoint, nobody is getting their money back. Period. Thinking that way is wishful thinking at best. Any and all costs to fight a legal battle will net the people that will sue...nothing other than the satisfaction of potentially ending the company...or ending it all together. Any money that will be left from Palladium will be to pay for legal fees, closing up shop, debt owed to banks/ creditors, etc. It's like those class action lawsuits...your cut after everything amounts to like $20 after the settlement pays for money to lawyers, and everything else..because backers are small fish. Frankly, going that route is a no win situation and at this point, anyone wanting to jump ship should do it now, sell their stuff for whatever they can get for it while time is on there side. If that's how they feel. Because if they wait...and if, in fact, a lawsuit vs. PB sticks...your models will have no dollar value. at. all. So what's it going to be? Hang on to them and hope? Or get as much of your money back now? I can totally understand the backers plight...but if they think they are getting their money back by lawsuits...that's wishful thinking...but I'm not going to discourage them from trying. Just don't expect you'll get refunded anything. If I was a backer that was dissatisfied I'd just simply sell it...and chalk it up to a bad experience. The money is gone and has been spent...I'll never get it all back regardless...and I can always make more money. :shrug: That's the realist in me. My gut tells me that Wave 2 will get done at some point. The timeline will just be longer than anyone has the stomach for unfortunately...and the game will be irrelevant by then because of PB not doing what I originally posted about. They are not supporting the game as a flagship game and never have. That was their most fatal mistake in all of this. I however, will still support any attempt to keep the game going as it deserves a chance to exist and I will still support any efforts (even crappy ones) to release additional stuff beyond Wave 2 by PB because it allows me to further enjoy the game. I'm loving the Female Power armor...and I'm glad I bought two full units worth of convention exclusive models to pull that off.


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Joyboozer wrote:
Captkruthors, I agree with everything you posted and think you should post it as a topic everywhere you can, maybe even submit it as an article at Beasts if War.

I've made posts like this in other forums as well...even on their own website forum. Nobody is really listening. As for writing an article...that requires good writing skills and time. Neither of which I have. If someone wants to take my bullet points and do their own article based on those bullet points and ideas...they can have at it. My focus is playing the game, enjoying the game, and getting others to follow suit. Like I said, I already got 4 new people playing beyond myself and my friend...so that's a start. The more people I can turn on to the game the better the Robotech community gets in my area.

Are you a lawyer? I thought not, I do have an attorney who has spelled it out to me the least amount I will get and the most amount I will get, the least is a full refund, the most a full refund plus up to $1,500, my lawyer gets paid seperate from what i'm getting since he'll be sticking PB with his bill.

also as to my pending legal action, it is not revenge but a public service, since it is obvious PB will never learn and refuse to learn they must be removed from the equation as a hazard.

Because when a business accepts money for a product, they have three choices.

First, they can provide the paid for product.

Second, they can provide a refund.

Third, they can suffer the legal consequences of neither doing the first or the second.

Just because you'll happily throw money at them, whether or not they'll provide a product, doesn't mean the rest of the world should let them live consequence-free. Why you see it as a character flaw that people feel a business should stop existing when it is no longer producing (prepaid) products...I have no idea.

If people want to sue them or pursue legal reparations that's their choice. I'm not going to stop them..but I'm not going to encourage them because quite frankly...whether they are right or not...the money is gone. So if you or anyone else wants to lead a personal crusade to get your money go right ahead. You have my blessing. Just don't be disappointed when it doesn't get you the results you want. That's all I'm saying. Better to sell what you have, get as much money you can back..and move on and chalk it up to a bad experience. That scenario is grounded in more reality than the hopes of a positive lawsuit result. And whether I want to throw money at a product is irrelevant. I told you, I like the game. I'll buy things to play said game. Sorry if my enjoyment of the game somehow annoys you because I would like the game to endure and be relevant. I don't care about how dumb PB is being...they've been that way since forever. This isn't the first PB product I've bought and paid for. I have many of their RPGs and used to play it. I'm fully aware of how bad they do things. The point is: I don't care. I like the game. I want the models to play said game. This game is far cheaper than many other wargames I've played and continue to play. As to seeing as a character flaw that people feel a business should stop existing because they aren't producing...I don't see it as a flaw. I don't care if you want them to close. That's your right to feel that way. The difference is...you're trying to convince everybody else to feel that way. I'm not trying to stop anyone from pursuing legal action...in fact, I think I've said before that if someone wants to do that go right ahead.

Consumer law is pretty clear. Whether PB is "judgement proof" or not.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

Because when a business accepts money for a product, they have three choices.

First, they can provide the paid for product.

Second, they can provide a refund.

Third, they can suffer the legal consequences of neither doing the first or the second.

Just because you'll happily throw money at them, whether or not they'll provide a product, doesn't mean the rest of the world should let them live consequence-free. Why you see it as a character flaw that people feel a business should stop existing when it is no longer producing (prepaid) products...I have no idea.

If people want to sue them or pursue legal reparations that's their choice. I'm not going to stop them..but I'm not going to encourage them because quite frankly...whether they are right or not...the money is gone. So if you or anyone else wants to lead a personal crusade to get your money go right ahead. You have my blessing. Just don't be disappointed when it doesn't get you the results you want. That's all I'm saying. Better to sell what you have, get as much money you can back..and move on and chalk it up to a bad experience. That scenario is grounded in more reality than the hopes of a positive lawsuit result. And whether I want to throw money at a product is irrelevant. I told you, I like the game. I'll buy things to play said game. Sorry if my enjoyment of the game somehow annoys you because I would like the game to endure and be relevant. I don't care about how dumb PB is being...they've been that way since forever. This isn't the first PB product I've bought and paid for. I have many of their RPGs and used to play it. I'm fully aware of how bad they do things. The point is: I don't care. I like the game. I want the models to play said game. This game is far cheaper than many other wargames I've played and continue to play. As to seeing as a character flaw that people feel a business should stop existing because they aren't producing...I don't see it as a flaw. I don't care if you want them to close. That's your right to feel that way. The difference is...you're trying to convince everybody else to feel that way. I'm not trying to stop anyone from pursuing legal action...in fact, I think I've said before that if someone wants to do that go right ahead.

I don't need to convince "everyone". It just takes a few of the right people to be convinced.

Fortunately, your opinion is completely unimportant in the matter.

GHQ already had molds made of the other units so they cost them nothing, as to the comanchero it is a unique HG unit that they cannot sell.

How could they not make a comanchero? I thought I saw preorders being taken for it to gauge interest? Why bother with that? Just make the damn thing. If the rules are solid, people will buy them. The rules mike posted for them..they seem like a unit worth fielding. HG could make it happen if they wanted.

as to the Gnerl already have a design but trying to figure out how to reduce its cost since it is a decent sized full model which makes it about $7-8 for one of them.

as to sharing my units? don't think so, the minute I sell, give, trade any of them PB will be able to shut me down not only on sales but also on my pending legal action against them.

Cool. I'm glad you have the means to make your own models. But what good does it do for the rest of us? What's the point of making them when you would be the only one to have them and use them?

Also who said I want to do anything that would help PB? the only thing I want to help them do is shut down so they can no longer screw people over like this.

My point is you aren't doing anyone any favors. It may seem like it to you. But others don't necessarily share your opinion. PB actions/inaction is doing more than enough to put them to the path of oblivion. They are taking care of that themselves at this point.

Are you a lawyer? I thought not, I do have an attorney who has spelled it out to me the least amount I will get and the most amount I will get, the least is a full refund, the most a full refund plus up to $1,500, my lawyer gets paid seperate from what i'm getting since he'll be sticking PB with his bill.

I never claimed I was. However, I know quite a few that have looked into this and none of them would touch it..as it's chance at a successful result in your favor is a very low percentage. If you can somehow recoup even half of your money...I'll be impressed. I don't think that's likely though. Remember they too have lawyers and PB has been in legal scrapes before. They have experience on their side. I'd rather cut my losses and sell what I have. Better chance at getting some amount of money back.

also as to my pending legal action, it is not revenge but a public service, since it is obvious PB will never learn and refuse to learn they must be removed from the equation as a hazard.

Public service? To whom? You? Not for me. I'm in full agreement that PB sucks at how they run their business, but unlike you...I don't need someone to shut them down to save me from myself. I know what PB is...how they operate. I've dealt with it since 1988 when I first bought TMNT and Other Strangeness. However, for all of their stupid decisions, past and present, etc...I like Robotech and want it to thrive...and yes grow. They are the makers of this game...and most likely will be the ONLY makers of this game. So I'm not too keen on having them close their doors. I'm also interested in several of their RPG titles...closed doors means no more books. I also know several artists that work on those books. Closed doors means they lose work. So no, you are not doing me a public service. Sorry. But if you want to pursue them legally, go right ahead. I'm not going to stop you or anyone else from doing so. That is your right.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

GHQ already had molds made of the other units so they cost them nothing, as to the comanchero it is a unique HG unit that they cannot sell.

How could they not make a comanchero? I thought I saw preorders being taken for it to gauge interest? Why bother with that? Just make the damn thing. If the rules are solid, people will buy them. The rules mike posted for them..they seem like a unit worth fielding. HG could make it happen if they wanted.

Because making a new mold would have cost PB lots of money which is one thing they do not want to spend, unless they were guaranteed to make their money back to which the preorders showed that was not the case.

as to the Gnerl already have a design but trying to figure out how to reduce its cost since it is a decent sized full model which makes it about $7-8 for one of them.

as to sharing my units? don't think so, the minute I sell, give, trade any of them PB will be able to shut me down not only on sales but also on my pending legal action against them.

Cool. I'm glad you have the means to make your own models. But what good does it do for the rest of us? What's the point of making them when you would be the only one to have them and use them?

it means I will have my models instead of waiting and thinking PB will make them when they will not. unlike you.

Also who said I want to do anything that would help PB? the only thing I want to help them do is shut down so they can no longer screw people over like this.

My point is you aren't doing anyone any favors. It may seem like it to you. But others don't necessarily share your opinion. PB actions/inaction is doing more than enough to put them to the path of oblivion. They are taking care of that themselves at this point.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

GHQ already had molds made of the other units so they cost them nothing, as to the comanchero it is a unique HG unit that they cannot sell.

How could they not make a comanchero? I thought I saw preorders being taken for it to gauge interest? Why bother with that? Just make the damn thing. If the rules are solid, people will buy them. The rules mike posted for them..they seem like a unit worth fielding.

They seem to be taking no risks. The comanchero would be a robotech custom made specific design and cost them likely as a company as it doesn't sound like they've gotten GHQ to foot the bill. The other stuff consisted of existing models so the only cost was the robotech specific packaging. That of course doesn't excuse them from not publishing the rules they got for free from fanfriends like Mike since all they had to do was format it robotech style. They've instead chosen to do nothing on all fronts practically except for the KS/convention "exclusives" that have been as ubiquitous as you can get recently.

I don't need to convince "everyone". It just takes a few of the right people to be convinced.

Why? Let people make their own choices on whether or not they will buy into the game or not...or whether or not they'll support PBs efforts. That's their own business. It's like all the donkey caves that try to constantly tell people to stop playing GW games or tell new people that are interested in playing them to stay away. Let them find out for themselves.

Fortunately, your opinion is completely unimportant in the matter.

And so is yours. Are you even involved in playing this game on a regular basis? Are your friends invested as heavily into the game as you? Have you recruited new players? No? I am, so are my friends and the new players i've recruited...and I want to continue the growth of a player base. You trying to convince people to shut down PB runs contrary to my efforts. Hypothetical: What happens if a lawsuit miraculously goes to court and rules in PBs favor? Then what?

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

I don't need to convince "everyone". It just takes a few of the right people to be convinced.

Why? Let people make their own choices on whether or not they will buy into the game or not...or whether or not they'll support PBs efforts. That's their own business. It's like all the donkey caves that try to constantly tell people to stop playing GW games or tell new people that are interested in playing them to stay away. Let them find out for themselves.

Fortunately, your opinion is completely unimportant in the matter.

And so is yours. Are you even involved in playing this game on a regular basis? Are your friends invested as heavily into the game as you? Have you recruited new players? No? I am, so are my friends and the new players i've recruited...and I want to continue the growth of a player base. You trying to convince people to shut down PB runs contrary to my efforts. Hypothetical: What happens if a lawsuit miraculously goes to court and rules in PBs favor? Then what?

so let me get this right if your parents got an e-mail from a Nigerian prince asking for money so they can get a larger chunk of money you would say nothing as they sent the money? I rest my case.

it means I will have my models instead of waiting and thinking PB will make them when they will not. unlike you.

Awesome. So why would I want to play against a person who could field units I could not?

well then all PB has to do is refund me my $120 for items not received, its not too hard and very simple and very cost effective, if you feel the way you do you should tell PB to refund me.

I've already stated here or elsewhere, I don't remember which forum I posted that in..that PB should do exactly what you suggest. Truth be told, that would save them a ton of headaches. But if they aren't they probably have good reasons not to. From their end they say they are working on wave 2...and until there is irrefutable proof to the contrary..they won't refund anyone's money.

and thats where I call you a liar, since any attorney would take this case to court its a simple cut and dry violation of the CPA, now getting a lawyer to do the case with no pay until case is resolved is another matter, as to PB having lawyers, don't hold your breath on that one, after the responses the BBB and several state AG's got no lawyers at the helm there.

Lolz. I'm a liar? Ok. You just gave one of the very reasons why a lawyer wouldn't take the case...LOL. I guess I'm lying then. Look, this case is small peanuts..and isn't worth the investment of a good lawyers time...that is unless it was something that he himself had a personal stake in..or saw it as some moral crusade to pursue. Look at how long the Chapterhouse case took...and that was a far bigger case with a bigger player. As to PB not having lawyers? Think again buddy. They have at least a lawyer. That I'm certain of. They wouldn't be able to make the licensing deals without one...nor would this be their first legal battle. How long have you been aware of PBs existance...and how in tune with their history are you? Feel free to continue your legal pursuits. I will be the first one to admit I'm wrong if things all work out in your favor in this legal matter. In fact, I'll sing your praises.

but on the other hand its fans like you who do a disservice to the public by condoning what PB does and saying its alright, they do it all the time, your probably the kind of person if you saw someone stealing from a store would say nothing even though they steal from the same store everyday. or better yet seeing a little old lay trying to drag a bag of groceries up her steps everyday and do nothing. that is being a pathetic disgrace of a human being.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Spare me the liberal appeal to emotion. I'm not condoning anything they are doing. Their bad decision making will ultimately make their business fail or it won't. Until that time, I will buy the products I like from them. I don't need you or anyone else to "save me" from PB books. I've repeatedly said PB has handled this Robotech thing like a bunch of schmucks. However, they will fail on their own. They don't need YOU or ME to help them with it. I like the game. I plan on buying things for the game I like. If it reaches a point where I no longer have faith in their product...I spend my dollars elsewhere. I vote with my wallet. Somehow you think that you have the moral authority to tell people how bad PB is and that we should all listen and if we don't we are horrible people. That's ridiculous...and your examples of casting me as some sort of hater of old people or supporter of thieves makes you look silly. Hypothetical: What happens if Wave 2 is released in Q2 of 2016? Will you withdraw your legal case and admit you were wrong?




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so let me get this right if your parents got an e-mail from a Nigerian prince asking for money so they can get a larger chunk of money you would say nothing as they sent the money? I rest my case.

First of all, this is stupid. Secondly, my parents can do what they want. It's none of my business.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Lolz. I'm a liar? Ok. You just gave one of the very reasons why a lawyer wouldn't take the case...LOL. I guess I'm lying then. Look, this case is small peanuts..and isn't worth the investment of a good lawyers time...that is unless it was something that he himself had a personal stake in..or saw it as some moral crusade to pursue. Look at how long the Chapterhouse case took...and that was a far bigger case with a bigger player. As to PB not having lawyers? Think again buddy. They have at least a lawyer. That I'm certain of. They wouldn't be able to make the licensing deals without one...nor would this be their first legal battle. How long have you been aware of PBs existance...and how in tune with their history are you? Feel free to continue your legal pursuits. I will be the first one to admit I'm wrong if things all work out in your favor in this legal matter. In fact, I'll sing your praises.

you didn't read any of those responses of Kevin's to the BBB or the AG did you? cause if Kevvy boy had a lawyer he would have not said half the stuff he did he essentially crucified himself with his responses, and faced with those responses any lawyer he can find will charge him an arm and a leg and tell him to settle, Kevin screwed himself in his responses.

as to wave 2, any evidence that it will come out other then Kevin saying it will? didn't think so, yet much more proof it will not.

you didn't read any of those responses of Kevin's to the BBB or the AG did you? cause if Kevvy boy had a lawyer he would have not said half the stuff he did he essentially crucified himself with his responses, and faced with those responses any lawyer he can find will charge him an arm and a leg and tell him to settle, Kevin screwed himself in his responses.

Yes I read his BBB responses and the follow up to the AG. While he sounded like a buffoon there isn't anything in there that implicates him in any sort of fraudulent activity. It's still speculative at best. This isn't their first legal battle that they've waged. Rest assured they will have a lawyer at the ready...obviously you haven't learned that PB will lawyer up any chance they can. LOL. Hell, just look at their draconian writer/ artist submission forms...

as to wave 2, any evidence that it will come out other then Kevin saying it will? didn't think so, yet much more proof it will not.

No I'm actually talking about if Wave 2 actually is released. i.e. when we actually see it arriving to these shores. What happens if that becomes a reality? Will you admit you were wrong? Nobody thought Rifts: Lemuria would see the light of day...and low and behold...it was made.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

you didn't read any of those responses of Kevin's to the BBB or the AG did you? cause if Kevvy boy had a lawyer he would have not said half the stuff he did he essentially crucified himself with his responses, and faced with those responses any lawyer he can find will charge him an arm and a leg and tell him to settle, Kevin screwed himself in his responses.

Yes I read his BBB responses and the follow up to the AG. While he sounded like a buffoon there isn't anything in there that implicates him in any sort of fraudulent activity. It's still speculative at best. This isn't their first legal battle that they've waged. Rest assured they will have a lawyer at the ready...obviously you haven't learned that PB will lawyer up any chance they can. LOL. Hell, just look at their draconian writer/ artist submission forms...

as to wave 2, any evidence that it will come out other then Kevin saying it will? didn't think so, yet much more proof it will not.

No I'm actually talking about if Wave 2 actually is released. i.e. when we actually see it arriving to these shores. What happens if that becomes a reality? Will you admit you were wrong? Nobody thought Rifts: Lemuria would see the light of day...and low and behold...it was made.

if Wave 2 does not show up by the end of this year it will not show up at all, reason being PB will cease as a company and no amount of lawyers will save them, end of story.