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Oh, that's easy.

44 weeks times 7 days per week times 26 hours per day = 8008.

Each.

@warboss - as it was told to me - cost over runs on shipping and overstocking retail.

The lack of funds is why they pushed so hard for the sales of the non exclusive "exclusives" and conventional. It was to try and garner funds to do wave two.,


@Noir - no I am most certainly not Kevin. Kevin is not at fault for "trusting" anyone. Kevin is at fault for willfully and knowingly allowing someone incompetent to continue to do the job after he knows the person is incompetent at said job.

It is bad enough I embarrassed them over 5 years ago fort their willful incompetence, to drag this out without being honest to the people that gave 1.44 million dollars is ludicrous and for him to continuously state "well we are working on it but we can;t tell you anything for "reasons"" while other companies are very detailed in where they are is flatly disgusting.

jaymz wrote:
@warboss - as it was told to me - cost over runs on shipping and overstocking retail.

The lack of funds is why they pushed so hard for the sales of the non exclusive "exclusives" and conventional. It was to try and garner funds to do wave two.,


@Noir - no I am most certainly not Kevin. Kevin is not at fault for "trusting" anyone. Kevin is at fault for willfully and knowingly allowing someone incompetent to continue to do the job after he knows the person is incompetent at said job.

It is bad enough I embarrassed them over 5 years ago fort their willful incompetence, to drag this out without being honest to the people that gave 1.44 million dollars is ludicrous and for him to continuously state "well we are working on it but we can;t tell you anything for "reasons"" while other companies are very detailed in where they are is flatly disgusting.

Ah, yes, thanks. I forgot about that option (overordering retail boxes with OUR money that was supposed to be earmarked for wave 2). As for 5 years ago, at the risk of incurring the wrath of "No repeat stories!" Mike, are you referring to Palladium saying it was too hard to make a facebook page for the company?

@warboss - yes. If you want to know more, and to keep from going into it here.

Jaymz LaFlamme on Facebook.

jaymz wrote:
@warboss - as it was told to me - cost over runs on shipping and overstocking retail.

It is bad enough I embarrassed them over 5 years ago fort their willful incompetence, to drag this out without being honest to the people that gave 1.44 million dollars is ludicrous and for him to continuously state "well we are working on it but we can;t tell you anything for "reasons"" while other companies are very detailed in where they are is flatly disgusting.

Well, sure, but a bunch of morons believe that. There's even another, overlapping group of morons, who consider it a character flaw to not believe it.

At what point did you hear there was no money left and why hold it back until now?
Why did one of Kevin's confidants tell you this information?
Why keep this person's name a secret?
Why does this person not come forward with the information since he doesn't seem to think it should be kept secret as he told you?

 n815e wrote:
At what point did you hear there was no money left and why hold it back until now?
Why did one of Kevin's confidants tell you this information?
Why keep this person's name a secret?
Why does this person not come forward with the information since he doesn't seem to think it should be kept secret as he told you?

Better yet, why is this person still working at Palladium if he knows that money is gone? The moment the company gets called on it, he'd be out of a job. If this were true and I were him/her, I'd be looking for another job before the shoe/hammer drops.

He could be looking for a job and still working at PB. As long as he still gets paid, I imagine it doesn't bother him that much

Sining wrote:
He could be looking for a job and still working at PB. As long as he still gets paid, I imagine it doesn't bother him that much

Well, if that person knew they would never be held accountable and were getting paid, why would they change anything?

 Mike1975 wrote:

Sining wrote:
He could be looking for a job and still working at PB. As long as he still gets paid, I imagine it doesn't bother him that much

Well, if that person knew they would never be held accountable and were getting paid, why would they change anything?

For real; with adherence like that to PB's core values of getting money for doing little to nothing, this supposed employee would be on the fast-track for a promotion!

 n815e wrote:
At what point did you hear there was no money left and why hold it back until now?
Why did one of Kevin's confidants tell you this information?
Why keep this person's name a secret?
Why does this person not come forward with the information since he doesn't seem to think it should be kept secret as he told you?

1 - I knew about this last summer. This is not the first time I have revealed this information privately or publicly. In fact I have said this more than once on the KS comments section, as well as on Facebook. Hell I think I may have even said it on Palladium's own forums. First time was back in early October. Prior to that I waited because the person who told me honestly believed there would be forward progress after Gencon and asked me to hold off a bit....by September's end I was fed up with Wayne and all the crap and said screw it and didn't wait anymore about that or a few other things.

2 - Because we have a good relationship and he values my opinion and input. He also wants people to know the truth from the inside without putting his own head on the block as it were. It is long known Palladium does not like me much in the first place so being a target of their ire isn't that hard. Oddly enough this the same person that had me put in charge of heading up the Fantasy project I mentioned. Last I heard was the project is at a dead stead still since I walked away.

3 - Frankly, it is no one's business who exactly this person is.

4 - Two words. Plausible deniability. I can say this person is damn near at the end of their own rope with Kevin and Palladium

Believe me or don't believe me. That is up to you. In the end I don't just speak empty words, I act. Others here will attest I am not working on RRT stuff now...nor am I part of that Fantasy project and I resigned as a Megaversal Ambassador all because of the garbage and crap involved in dealing with this pisspoor excuse for a company.


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 Stormonu wrote:

Better yet, why is this person still working at Palladium if he knows that money is gone? The moment the company gets called on it, he'd be out of a job. If this were true and I were him/her, I'd be looking for another job before the shoe/hammer drops.

The clarify I said this person works closely with Kevin not for Kevin. Or rather is not an employee.

It's Kevin isn't it? It's finally happened, he's finally found a way to shoulder the blame and blame someone else, it wasn't me, it was evil Kevin I tells ya!

Which basically means that there is no real way to get our $ back since PB doesn't have it and it's either lawsuit and hope to get something or move on.....


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Well a few could jump out their first and try a lawsuit, but the entire KS backer group is like SOL

 Alpharius wrote:
[..] Remember, this thread is the current reigning champion for Most Shamefully Negative Thread on Dakka Dakka.
(Though the various AoS ones are giving it a serious run for its money!)

FRAK ! - Heavy Gear (& DP9 et al) is never first in anything.

/rant [lol]

 Talizvar wrote:
This is not a huge company we are talking about here, 5 in-house staff and a handful of independent artists they dole out jobs to.
With the extremely low publication rate, I really wonder what they do to fill the day. [...]

It truly beggars belief that PB, KS, and associates continue to expect folks to believe at face value that they're ''working so hard'' all day, every day, on essentially nothing at all.

_
_

jaymz wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

Better yet, why is this person still working at Palladium if he knows that money is gone? The moment the company gets called on it, he'd be out of a job. If this were true and I were him/her, I'd be looking for another job before the shoe/hammer drops.

The clarify I said this person works closely with Kevin not for Kevin. Or rather is not an employee.

Well since your friend is basically describing embezzlement of the backers funds- you might want to point him to the FBI or FTC as they can allow whistle blowers to keep some of the money as a reward...

Joyboozer wrote:
It's Kevin isn't it? It's finally happened, he's finally found a way to shoulder the blame and blame someone else, it wasn't me, it was evil Kevin I tells ya!

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/the-menendez-trial/n10475

Hard to believe it's been 22 years since I saw this skit...

Joyboozer wrote:
It's Kevin isn't it? It's finally happened, he's finally found a way to shoulder the blame and blame someone else, it wasn't me, it was evil Kevin I tells ya!

Bwahahahahaha

Thanks. You made my day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThaneCawdor wrote:

jaymz wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

Better yet, why is this person still working at Palladium if he knows that money is gone? The moment the company gets called on it, he'd be out of a job. If this were true and I were him/her, I'd be looking for another job before the shoe/hammer drops.

The clarify I said this person works closely with Kevin not for Kevin. Or rather is not an employee.

Well since your friend is basically describing embezzlement of the backers funds- you might want to point him to the FBI or FTC as they can allow whistle blowers to keep some of the money as a reward...

No gak?

Edit; Heh. Thats quite a funny censor operating here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also found Wayne totally rude, obnoxious and ungrateful. Why word something tactfully when you can just be abusive and insultive instead?

With the rifter you'll find most of the contributors are happy just to see their name in print and arent concerned if they never get paid. Which is what at least one person at palladium seems to count on..

 ThaneCawdor wrote:

jaymz wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormonu wrote:

Better yet, why is this person still working at Palladium if he knows that money is gone? The moment the company gets called on it, he'd be out of a job. If this were true and I were him/her, I'd be looking for another job before the shoe/hammer drops.

The clarify I said this person works closely with Kevin not for Kevin. Or rather is not an employee.

Well since your friend is basically describing embezzlement of the backers funds- you might want to point him to the FBI or FTC as they can allow whistle blowers to keep some of the money as a reward...

Except for two things

1 - shipping cost overrun is not embezzlement
2 - overproduction of retail is not embezzlement

The point of the Kickstarter was to both reward backers and get the game to market. Manufacturing retail stock along with backer rewards was inferred.

What is is incompetent mismanagement all around resulting in the using up of all funds collected.

Using backer money to produce retail product may have been inferred, but that doesn't make it correct or legal - whether that retail production run had been bought or is still sitting in their warehouse is a moot point.

I paid a certain amount on the promise that I would get certain items for that money. Of my $140 'investment' (But no, it's not an investment as KS projects are not protected by the relevant investor legislation. It's not a 'pre-order' either because it's not protected by that legislation. So it seems to me to be a slush fund. At least that is how this project seems to have gone.) I have received a single decal sheet - for a scale and subject of model I have yet to see anything of.

A return of that scale should be seen by the courts as fraud. The backer funds should have been used to secure production of the items listed as "Rewards" in the campaign, not on extra items to be sold standard retail. Once those obligations had been cleared, further production would have cost cents on the dollar as all the development costs would have been paid for by the backers.

All we have done with that money is ensure that a half-hearted effort has been made, and that PB have been able to keep the lights on for another couple of years. I, for one, wish I could go back in time and cancel my pledge for the pleasure of seeing them go down years ago.

I paid a certain amount on the promise that I would get certain items for that money.

And this is where you are incorrect

You paid a certain amount on the promise that you would get certain items for that money AND to for them to try and get the game to market. It was stated clearly in the campaign that yes backers got rewards (And dammit I want my Super VFs and Rau's) but you also agreed to a portion of that money going towards retail manufacture.

That is the endgame of all kickstarters when they run a campaign. Reward those who gave us money and get the game to market. The goal is to not just take your money and make a game for backers and only backers then have no money left to continue afterwards.

Did they misuse funds by over manufacturing retail. You bet. That is incompetence not illegal or embezzlement.

As others here an attest (Forar, Cyber, Morgan Vening) I'll be the first to call out PB on any number of things but I won't call them out for things they haven't done.

Therein lies our overall problem...they haven't really broken the law unless fraud can actually be proven in court.

So unless a group of backers pools their funds and takes them to court, we are screwed regardless.

jaymz wrote:

That is the endgame of all kickstarters when they run a campaign. Reward those who gave us money and get the game to market. The goal is to not just take your money and make a game for backers and only backers then have no money left to continue afterwards.

Did they misuse funds by over manufacturing retail. You bet. That is incompetence not illegal or embezzlement.

As others here an attest (Forar, Cyber, Morgan Vening) I'll be the first to call out PB on any number of things but I won't call them out for things they haven't done.

Therein lies our overall problem...they haven't really broken the law unless fraud can actually be proven in court.

So unless a group of backers pools their funds and takes them to court, we are screwed regardless.

If their over-ordering of retail stock left them unable to fulfill backer rewards, then yes, they have acted illegally and potentially fraudulently. The kickstarter ToU (which forms the contract between backers and project creators) clearly states that project creators are required to fulfill all rewards promised for backers or refund backers. Not 'make a best effort at doing it', they absolutely HAVE to, according to the contract. The only reference to timescale for that is that a 'good faith attempt' (and that is a legal term, not a generalisation) must be made at fulfilling backers by the promised delivery date. I think we can safely say that two years late, with what amounts to a year of no forthcoming information at all does not constitute a good faith attempt at anything.

Thus, if they're doing bugger all because they can't afford to (likely in the extreme), then they have breached contract. Whether it amounts to criminal, deliberate fraud would be decided by a court examining the paperwork.

"Fraud" and "inability to complete due to incompetent use of funds" are not the same thing. Fraud is a knowing misuse of funds. THAT will be ridiculously difficult to prove in any court even if true as we do not have the information available to us to even take it to court and I guarantee their books likely hide anything that would prove it. However we do agree on the end result being the same. They are in breach of contract in getting rewards completed. THAT is the part that needs to be focused on. As they say, "ignorance (or in this case incompetence) is not protection from the law (in this case contract law)"

They need to come clean that they cannot finish and refund whatever is owed. Period. Full stop.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think you guys are basically arguing the same point.

I mean, yes, whether or not literal Fraud has occurred or not does influence what agencies might be interested, but let's not get too wrapped up in being Internet Legal Experts. If someone thinks fraud has occurred, then they should present their concerns and evidence to the proper authorities. Other than riling people up (and boy, has this thread seen more activity than usual), there's not much that Jaymz or Morgan or I are going to do whether they are committing Fraud or not.

If the case is there and they were prosecuted, it could shake things up considerably, but none of us are judges (far as I know) and only a few are even lawyers.

What they are or aren't guilty of isn't up to us, so arguing the point isn't even academic. Sure, it might also affect ones chances for successfully pursuing our own refund/lawsuit/whatever, but it's not on us to prove them guilty. Jaymz has presented what he has heard, if we're willing to believe him (I'm inclined to), it sounds like they really are sticking their heads in the sand, as we've noticed for the past year.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be shocked at all if there was a mix of incompetence and/or misappropriation going on, but a court isn't going to leap to charge them on my say so.

We are sort of arguing the same point...and that being the end result of Palladium's actions.

To me it is a matter of what should be focused on to get results. Breach of contract is, in my opinion, what needs to be the focus. That is all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mind you until/unless a significant group of backers actually get together to proceed as a group in a lawsuit, nothing will be done or happen.

fraud.

[frɔːd]

NOUN

1.wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain:

So IF [and yes, that is an IF] PB are out of money to complete the remaining rewards, they are not saying so. They are obviously not saying that the backers will not see wave 2, probably to stop claims for refunds that they can't pay.

Therefore they are deceiving us on the status of the campaign so that they can benefit financially. Textbook definition of fraud.

Also, if they'd told the truth that all I would see in over 2 years for my $140 would be an expensive $5 decal sheet, I wouldn't have invested. They lied and benefitted financially, also fraud. (OK, the last point wouldn't hold up as at the time it presumably wasn't a deception. Just the fact that at the time, they grossly underestimated their progress and ability to get this thing to market.)

evilsmurf wrote:

I also found Wayne totally rude, obnoxious and ungrateful. Why word something tactfully when you can just be abusive and insultive instead?

With the rifter you'll find most of the contributors are happy just to see their name in print and arent concerned if they never get paid. Which is what at least one person at palladium seems to count on..

That is also a fact. he will shoot his mouth off and then try to back pedal like no tomorrow when someone calls him on it or won't put up with it. It has happened a number of times on Facebook and with me it was one the reasons I finally had enough of him and Palladium.

As for the Rifter, technically they only have to pay if they use the material, and they are obligated to do play for material used. As for them keeping the material as their own, well if you sign that contract then that is on you and you have no right to bitch about it after the fact when your material does not get used. That is why i have never submitted anything to Palladium for anything (not because I don't want too but anything I do from now on will be put out as a net book etc). Sadly you are correct in that most of those that do in fact submit just to see their name published by the Great Almighty "Machine" Kevin Siembieda and do no care if they get paid.

Isn't a "machine" supposed to perform a function?

@Conrad - They also deceived in that they claimed ND was doing all the work, and that they were 98% ready to go to production.

So...yeah.

 Conrad Turner wrote:
fraud.

[frɔːd]

NOUN

1.wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain:

So IF [and yes, that is an IF] PB are out of money to complete the remaining rewards, they are not saying so. They are obviously not saying that the backers will not see wave 2, probably to stop claims for refunds that they can't pay.

Therefore they are deceiving us on the status of the campaign so that they can benefit financially. Textbook definition of fraud.

Also, if they'd told the truth that all I would see in over 2 years for my $140 would be an expensive $5 decal sheet, I wouldn't have invested. They lied and benefitted financially, also fraud. (OK, the last point wouldn't hold up as at the time it presumably wasn't a deception. Just the fact that at the time, they grossly underestimated their progress and ability to get this thing to market.)

Which is why I said above that all of the above would be ridiculously difficult to prove in court. You have to prove actual intent to deceive. You also have to prove they did indeed benefit financially by intention. (the large number of unsold core boxes tells me if anything they are not benefiting financially at all)That is why I say focus on breach of contract not fraud. If you can prove deception on their part to delay or avoid a lawsuit for breach of contract THEN you might be able to bring fraud to the table with a higher chance of success.

In the end this whole exercise is pointless unless a good number of people get together and take them to court. So far that does not seem to be the case or willingness of any significant number of people. Maybe if the AG or FTC get enough complaints they'll move forward but I doubt it.

The end result is Palladium is at fault and in breach by not delivering or being open with the process of what is going on at the very least. Put up or admit to the truth and refund everyone what is owed.


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Merijeek wrote:
Isn't a "machine" supposed to perform a function?

@Conrad - They also deceived in that they claimed ND was doing all the work, and that they were 98% ready to go to production.

So...yeah.

Sorry... I use "The Machine" and "Machine" for Kevin as a tongue in cheek since he wrote himself up as an NPC in a sourcebook a while back and called himself "The Machine" an Iron Man like character for Heroes Unlimited.

Yeah, I totally agree, it's the breach of contract that's blatant.

As for a mass class-action; can't see it happening - best bet I think is going to be a large volume of complaints through the FTC.

jaymz wrote:
They need to come clean that they cannot finish and refund whatever is owed. Period. Full stop.

That is all I am claiming against them.
To constantly say "we are working on it" to back up their "no refunds" policy is what is the issue.
If they have no means on fulfilling, they are lying to the consumer and I think a case can be argued for being contrary to law.

What few details have been released about this "informant" however would make them easily identifiable to PB so the efforts made to keep anonymity is rather confusing.

It is nice to see an attempt at keeping us informed however it may be motivated: thanks!