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I can see them trying to go back and releasing the conventional and advanced rules stuff that they have as if it was something cool and new. Most likely using the earlier version of the Conventional rules that Carmen has "adopted" from what I had done that was just way unbalanced and present them as cool "new" ideas.

It's possible. I could see them spending six months making sure their (c)(r) and (TM) were in place.

I don't see them releasing the conventional rules because there is no money in it for them and Jaymz already released them into the wild.

 n815e wrote:
I don't see them releasing the conventional rules because there is no money in it for them and Jaymz already released them into the wild.

Rehashing the same rules that folks already have hasn't stopped palladium in the past. See every RPG after 1988 they've made. The real 99% of fans will buy it in their eyes... just not us gaming 1%ers.

Yep. And dammit I'd do it again.

 Talizvar wrote:

Ah well, hindsight is 20:20.

And so is the year Wave 2 might actually get released.

jaymz wrote:
Yep. And dammit I'd do it again.

You'll buy every rehashed rpg ruleset they put out in the future? I'm not sure if you were responding to me. If so, why?

 warboss wrote:

jaymz wrote:
Yep. And dammit I'd do it again.

You'll buy every rehashed rpg ruleset they put out in the future? I'm not sure if you were responding to me. If so, why?

Sorry I was on my phone. I would release the conventional rules again if had it to do over. Wayne is an ass who whines and cries how busy he is and when called on his bs back pedals more than Bill Clinton after it came out that he did in fact had sexual relations with that woman. LOL

Looks like theres a bit of a clean out going on at the PB forums. Not just in the robotech section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding whether people get paid for the rifter, see here; http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=128203

Something I just thought back on the discussion of PB's funds, to add to PB's woes.

Taxes. Federal taxes for corporate earnings over $335,000 is at 35% (and I suspect PB has no clout/mind for garnering tax breaks). That's about $400K of the money PB garnered for the KS. Amazon/KS gets what, 10% - amounting to $140K. State of MI corporate tax is 6%, another $84K. That's $624,000 out of the KS before the money is even spent.

If my figures from a few pages back are anywhere close to accurate, just providing Wave 1 ate all the KS funds and ran over into whatever they collected through the backerkit for funds. If, as I've heard Forar recount, what the backer kit collected was about 10% of the KS ($140K), they are some $60K in the hole BEYOND all the funds collected for the entire KS.

and also freelancers, see the post by phalanx; http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?516154-Why-the-Palladium-Hate/page18

 Stormonu wrote:
Something I just thought back on the discussion of PB's funds, to add to PB's woes.

Taxes. Federal taxes for corporate earnings over $335,000 is at 35% (and I suspect PB has no clout/mind for garnering tax breaks). That's about $400K of the money PB garnered for the KS. Amazon/KS gets what, 10% - amounting to $140K. State of MI corporate tax is 6%, another $84K. That's $624,000 out of the KS before the money is even spent.

If my figures from a few pages back are anywhere close to accurate, just providing Wave 1 ate all the KS funds and ran over into whatever they collected through the backerkit for funds. If, as I've heard Forar recount, what the backer kit collected was about 10% of the KS ($140K), they are some $60K in the hole BEYOND all the funds collected for the entire KS.

Does the kickstarter money count as "earnings"? I wonder what kind of money they made selling the box set to retailers? Probably not much.

 Stormonu wrote:
Something I just thought back on the discussion of PB's funds, to add to PB's woes.

Taxes. Federal taxes for corporate earnings

Earnings implies a profit. If you aren't making money, you don't pay taxes.

Of course, if Palladium was so stupid as to not treat and segregate KS funds as "deferred (unearned) revenue", they deserve to go bankrupt.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Earnings implies a profit. If you aren't making money, you don't pay taxes.

What a nice country you live in >_>

Sure. OTOH, in your country, you only pay taxes if you add value. <.<

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Sure. OTOH, in your country, you only pay taxes if you add value. <.<

Or if you want to park. Or have public healthcare. Or throw garbage. Or collect solar energy (why yes, my country has put a tax on the sun). Or breathe...

And we have taxes on taxes!

We pay 'Duty' to HMRC on our fuel, and pay VAT on top of that - so we're getting taxed twice on the same thing.

 Conrad Turner wrote:
And we have taxes on taxes!

We pay 'Duty' to HMRC on our fuel, and pay VAT on top of that - so we're getting taxed twice on the same thing.

Cars are funny that way, yeah xDD. You pay a yearly "transit tax" and a yearly compulsory technical inspection, but you also need to pay double tax for gas (VAT plus all the previous fees paid by the provider that kindly reverts to you) and a parking tax every time you do park outside your home (and/or a yearly parking fee if you do park inside your home)

Good fun, all in all ^_^

Yeah, the tax thing isn't likely to be a big deal in the short-term; one of the random articles I was reading about KS in general mentioned that taxes owed on funds like from a KS that are given for a future product, and not an immediate exchange of goods/services, can be deferred until the product is delivered. I'm not sure if there is a cap on the amount of time it can be deferred, but one would imagine it exists somewhere. However, such things are obviously recommended for KS projects, especially ones that will be delivering retail products.

Now, that could be an excellent "strategic" reason to not produce Wave 2 at this point. If they produce and deliver Wave 2, they incur their tax liability. Unlike their contributors, the IRS and state tax agencies are unlikely to take payment in the form of extra Rifters and empty promises. They also can't ignore that bill like they can the KS backers, because the IRS can and will start legal proceedings quickly and easily. In that circumstance, the tap show they're putting on would be plausibly explained.

Pure speculation though; just as likely they foolishly paid the tax bill directly and that's why the money has gone the way of the rum. Or that ND actually made sure they got paid and Kevin, unused to actually paying outside contractors, had figured that money into the budget and now they're short. Or as Forar thought up that one time he did way too much peyote, that PB is just secretly developing everything and will drop a surprise update in March showing containers full of Wave 2 product leaving port.

Forar's supplier is good is what you can take away from that.

Wait, I did?

Man, I'm not doing peyote again...

Clearly I was talking *crazy*.

And just going through the PBWU again, I spot the phrase "For strategic and business reasons we cannot share with you everything we have been exploring, considering and working on, but we will share everything with you as we move forward and get things finalized."

EVERYTHING! I don't NEED them to share EVERYTHING. I want them to share ANYTHING! Just ONE little thing that they can back up with pictures, just ONE, and they haven't been able to do that in I don't know how long.

It does seem there is a fair bit of claims/conjecture and putting 2 and 2 together from our pooled information that PB is out of money.
So the incessant delays help them how?
Other than of course, why take your lumps now when you can take them later with interest.
Well, the renewed vigor into their RPG's may help keep them distracted for a bit.

Ah, I was about to go back into the usual... it is even boring me.
Heck, I was even figuring out worst case scenarios and trying to figure out how to help PB get better and still produce our stuff.
Any other option would have me demand their closure just on the principle of the thing.

The Aliens vs Predator kickstarter is pretty much the same scenario we are staring down except at least those guys were open about their messing up.
So yeah, all is fair in making our toys, multi-step retail sales first, failing that, their demise... take no prisoners damn the torpedoes.

I am still not buying a darn thing from them till they come clean.

 Conrad Turner wrote:
And just going through the PBWU again, I spot the phrase "For strategic and business reasons we cannot share with you everything we have been exploring, considering and working on, but we will share everything with you as we move forward and get things finalized."

EVERYTHING! I don't NEED them to share EVERYTHING. I want them to share ANYTHING! Just ONE little thing that they can back up with pictures, just ONE, and they haven't been able to do that in I don't know how long.

Yup. Palladium's view of the world is as color blind as it is myopic with some hallucinations thrown in to mix things up. You're either part of the 99% of fans who are "happy" or you're one of the 1%ers that aren't their customers. They can't share everything with you so they'll share NOTHING. Black and White with no shades of grey. Then throw in that they view themselves today as their 1980's and early 1990's selves...industry leading trendsetters that the rest of the world watches to gauge which way the various hobbies will flow instead of the has been brunt of jokes that the community actually sees them as. I personally don't think anyone else in the industry (except for people that directly work for them) or wider fanbase cares at all what they do or have done for the past 20 years but they still think others do.

 warboss wrote:
Then throw in that they view themselves today as their 1980's and early 1990's selves...industry leading trendsetters that the rest of the world watches to gauge which way the various hobbies will flow instead of the has been brunt of jokes that the community actually sees them as. I personally don't think anyone else in the industry (except for people that directly work for them) or wider fanbase cares at all what they do or have done for the past 20 years but they still think others do.

Sadly you are bang on here as Kevin has in the past few years tossed out things about how they were "leading edge blah blah blah" to which people like us usually point laugh and say "have you even LOOKED at your competition over the last 20 years?"

don't forget how they said miniature wargaming is a new market and people are still feeling their way around the game.

Rick, that was actually true at the time but you don't get to play the "I'm new!" get out of jail free card over and over for years.

 warboss wrote:
Rick, that was actually true at the time but you don't get to play the "I'm new!" get out of jail free card over and over for years.

warboss they said that about this project and not in reference to themselves but to gaming in general.

I suppose from Palladium's stuck in 1989 point of view that it might be how they see it. Either way, I don't recall them commenting on the industry in general but I wouldn't put it past them.

I dimly recall the quote, but I think it wasn't miniature wargaming in general so much as crowd-funded miniature wargaming projects. Looking at the list of "Tabletop Games" in the list of KS projects, it's hard to call them outright liars, especially when you look at that the actual timing this campaign finished; Reaper's Bones 1 was not yet completed with shipping! Could be wrong, but at the time I recall that being the overall tone that the market hadn't quite settled into norms with KS money floating about.

Even today, the idea of brand-new companies without a lot of experience starting into full products is pretty novel, and are usually associated with massive delays and overruns. A lot of the products I see on the Tabletop Gaming feed on KS are by companies already in the market, and while PB can be said to be in the gaming market, they are absolutely newbies in the miniature wargaming niche of it. As warboss says though, at some point you lose the ability to claim freshman feth-ups because even if a company had no clue to start with, they will have had plenty of time to learn and adapt.

Oh dear, there's that "adapt" word...welp, so much for that idea.

Hmm... If PB didn't have to pay taxes on reciept of funds, surely they had to pay on backer rewards distributed after distributing Wave 1 (not to metion what went to retail) - I'd find it hard to imagine they'd be allowed to defer paying until after Wave 2 is shipped.

And am I understanding correct that taxes would be Net - costs? If so, I need to talk to the government about lowering my income taxes to account for mortage, utilities and car costs...