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OK, that was kinda buried, so I missed what that earlier.

I thought the complaint was in reference to the the custom Bioroids and such that people were making.

Roger. Roger. You can always find my tutorials at my blog XD
I'll not post anything related or how to be done about cloning.

Maybe just some pics of the results if everything goes alright?

@Albertorius, I will be waiting for those pictures!!

 Forar wrote:

Asterios wrote:
people can talk, they just can't show how to do it, so I say talk all they want about what they are doing, does not violate Dakka's rules I think ?

Articles/forum threads that serve as a means to promote and/or help normalize the concept of unauthorized recasting will be locked or deleted. This is a difficult guideline to precisely define, and its enforcement is handled on a case-by-base basis, rather than a strict set of rules to follow. Generally, it is permissible to talk about the concept of unauthorized recasting and even voice your opinion on whether you think it is morally wrong or right. However, the moment the conversation/article turns into a vehicle to promote unauthorized recasting, it becomes inappropriate

Example snipped because it's not relevant here.

Plus, y'know, Alpharius just said to knock it off.

But if you want to pick a fight with the Admin and Mod staff of Dakka over it, be my guest.

but we are not promoting unauthorized recasting, we are settling for its the only way to get our stuff (in regards to the miriya model and the grell model), other then that me and a few others are desiging our own stuff, since there is not much options out there and PB will never deliver.

*deep breaths*

I just went over this with Johnny, but I see where this went off the rails.

Tal and Nesbet discussed "cloning" on the last page.

Warboss suggested people take the talk about "copying minis to PMs".

You jumped in assuming he meant your stuff.

I built on Warboss's statements noting that Dakka frowns on Recasting Existing Models, which you (Rick) are not doing, but that others were discussing.

Your response of "people can talk, they just can't show how to do it, so I say talk all they want about what they are doing, does not violate Dakka's rules I think?" is factually incorrect in regards to cloning/recasting. Which I quoted, and you're not doing, again.

So, are we all on the same page now, or do I need to go over this again in crayon?

It was two conversations that seem to have gotten muddled in the middle. 3D print a billion bioroids, I don't care. Recasting existing models, and talking about doing so on Dakka, is not permitted.

So can we stop arguing this stupid point that I never made?

 Forar wrote:
I'm not talking about your fething 3D prints, I was talking about Nesbit and Tal discussing "cloning" (aka Recasting) Limited Edition models.

Go ahead and 3D print a billion bioroids, I don't care.

Perhaps I should have @'d those two in particular, but it was a common courtesy reminder that had nothing to do with you.

Maybe I'm being a bit short here, but I *just* went over this with Johnny in the last few posts.

I know what you are talking about Forar and if I had one of those miriyas and grell power armor I would probably be cloning them, why? hate metal minis and would be much cheaper then $20 or so for one mini.

that and don't have my 3D program subscription anymore (had to make some sacrifices) so can't design my own.

Asterios wrote:
I know what you are talking about Forar and if I had one of those miriyas and grell power armor I would probably be cloning them, why? hate metal minis and would be much cheaper then $20 or so for one mini.

that and don't have my 3D program subscription anymore (had to make some sacrifices) so can't design my own.

*facepalm*

Cool story bro. Clone/Recast to your hearts content. Apparently you do understand the topic, you just don't understand that the admins and mods have a rule about this very topic that was being broken.

I'm done with this, if you want to recast in the privacy of your own home, awesome. Now we can drop this topic here because it is verboten, and getting this thread locked/deleted for being home to unwanted talk is not going to do any of us any good.

Edit: Sorry Alph, that period of love and levity didn't last very long.

 Talizvar wrote:
A long time ago I setup this thread to catalogue what I could.
There is a ton of new stuff that keeps popping up.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/531655.page#5703520
Hope that helps.
There is a fair bit of 6mm stuff on Shapeways as well, since they mainly charge by volume 6mm stuff is economical.

Cool, I'll take a look, thanks!

Changing the subject to more joyful topics...

Let's go again to zentraedi infatry proxies. What do you/would you use?
I calculated yesterday that the zent infantry miniature should be aprox 40mm tall, because of the fluff saying that zent warriors are 12m (40 feet) tall.
[1/285 scale means than in average, a humane measures 6mm~1.71m ]

I was looking at Dream Forge Games range... the Eisenhorn rage would look ok (IMHO, just changing and modifying the heads to match the zentraedi infantry style) but a bit too short, 33~37mm, calculated just with the pics online, considering that the bases are 30mm wide.

Does anyone of you have these minis? Or Concord C3 shock/drop troops? That's another range I'm looking to use to proxie the zent infantry, but I can't figure how tall the minis are.
Any other ideas?

Regarding zentran/meltran sizes, this could be useful:

http://macross2.net/m3/macrosstechman/tech-zentradiheight.html

I have both C3 troopers and DFG stormtroopers, so I'll add that to the pic list. Both ranges are designed to be human people on a 28-32mm scale, so... that said, if you go for a more canonical sizing, they would be more or less correct.

Thanks Albertorius. That would be helpful.
And no, I don't care SO much about heights, but looking at the Breetai miniature makes me find a more apropiate zentraedi infantry xD
That guy is colossal, lol

And the 3D renders of the PB RRT Zentraedi warriors look like ~40mm too.

35mm would be ok for me I think, specially considering that the warriors should fit inside the Regults, Glaugs and other mecha

EDIT: and thanks for the link, I haven't seen this sketch before!

 Forar wrote:

Asterios wrote:
I know what you are talking about Forar and if I had one of those miriyas and grell power armor I would probably be cloning them, why? hate metal minis and would be much cheaper then $20 or so for one mini.

that and don't have my 3D program subscription anymore (had to make some sacrifices) so can't design my own.

*facepalm*

Cool story bro. Clone/Recast to your hearts content. Apparently you do understand the topic, you just don't understand that the admins and mods have a rule about this very topic that was being broken.

I'm done with this, if you want to recast in the privacy of your own home, awesome. Now we can drop this topic here because it is verboten, and getting this thread locked/deleted for being home to unwanted talk is not going to do any of us any good.

Edit: Sorry Alph, that period of love and levity didn't last very long.

Well, we tried. I'm confident we can get back there.

And seriously - the recasting/casting policy here is pretty clear - DO talk about/show casting your own stuff. DO NOT talk about/show casting stuff that is the IP of someone else. Additionally, DO NOT link to people who sell recasts.

That's it.

If someone is still confused about it, just send me a PM.

 Nesbet wrote:
Thanks Albertorius. That would be helpful.
And no, I don't care SO much about heights, but looking at the Breetai miniature makes me find a more apropiate zentraedi infantry xD
That guy is colossal, lol

And the 3D renders of the PB RRT Zentraedi warriors look like ~40mm too.

35mm would be ok for me I think, specially considering that the warriors should fit inside the Regults, Glaugs and other mecha

EDIT: and thanks for the link, I haven't seen this sketch before!

well according to that one page Albertorious linked to the Zentraedi in our scale would be about 60mm ? and yet this guy in this pic is 32mm:

 Alpharius wrote:

And seriously - the recasting/casting policy here is pretty clear - DO talk about/show casting your own stuff. DO NOT talk about/show casting stuff that is the IP of someone else. Additionally, DO NOT link to people who sell recasts.

That's it.

If someone is still confused about it, just send me a PM.[/color]

well then I couldn't show off my stuff or even talk about my stuff I'm making because Robotech is the IP of HG/BigWest, etc. etc. i'm very confused ?

Nope. Female zentraedi are around 8~10 meters high and male ones 9~11 with exceptions, like Breetai being almost 14.

If we agree that the zentraedi warriors are in average 10m, that would be exactly 35mm in a miniature. (Remembering that 1mm equals to real 28.5cm, so, 10m would be 35.08mm in a miniature)

32mm would be 9.12m still ok for average.
30~40mm miniatures at least seems to fit inside the Regults/Glaug cockpits.

Asterios, that white soldier... where did it come from? Can't remember at the moment.

 Nesbet wrote:
Nope. Female zentraedi are around 8~10 meters high and male ones 9~11 with exceptions, like Breetai being almost 14.

If we agree that the zentraedi warriors are in average 10m, that would be exactly 35mm in a miniature. (Remembering that 1mm equals to real 28.5cm, so, 10m would be 35.08mm in a miniature)

32mm would be 9.12m still ok for average.
30~40mm miniatures at least seems to fit inside the Regults/Glaug cockpits.

Asterios, that white soldier... where did it come from? Can't remember at the moment.

I always thought in 6mm scale 1mm = 1 foot, so a guy who stands 6' tall would be 6mm to be at 6mm/1:285/300 scale

oh thats one of my guys I printed up using Shapeways.

1/300 scale, 6mm represents 1.80m or 6 feets
1/285 scale, 6mm represents 1.71m or 5,7 feets

small difference.

Your 9m high zentraedi soldier looks quite nice if I imagine it going inside the regult

Asterios wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

And seriously - the recasting/casting policy here is pretty clear - DO talk about/show casting your own stuff. DO NOT talk about/show casting stuff that is the IP of someone else. Additionally, DO NOT link to people who sell recasts.

That's it.

If someone is still confused about it, just send me a PM.[/color]

well then I couldn't show off my stuff or even talk about my stuff I'm making because Robotech is the IP of HG/BigWest, etc. etc. i'm very confused ?

I know I shouldn't...

By my understanding of US law, creating figures based on another person's IP for personal use isn't illegal (something involving Fair Use, perhaps?), or at the very least it's grey/expensive enough most companies won't bother pursuing it. The grey can end when people start to *sell* those items or otherwise make profit off them. So while making personal 3D printed/sculpted figures might be (I don't know, I Am Not A Lawyer) IP infringement, I don't believe it's forbidden here on the forum.

"Re-casting" in the form of taking *an existing model, crafted by someone else, and making copies of it without their permission* is forbidden here.

You 3D printing figures is not unwelcome here.

You recasting some of your 3D printed figures to save time/money is not unwelcome here.

Recasting GHQ/PB/GW/Other Company's figures IS verboten here. Will PB send attack lawyers after Tal or Nesbet? Probably not. Dakka doesn't care, they don't want or need the heat, they have set a line in the sand and made their policy clear.

Recasting is IP infringement, IP Infringement isn't necessarily Recasting. We're specifically talking about making copies of someone else's existing figures, not simply mocking up our own Cyclones and Shapeways'ing our way to a personal Wave 3.

I suppose it could get iffy again if you scanned one of PB's LE figures and 3D printed a replica of it, but far as I'm aware nobody is doing that.

 Forar wrote:

Asterios wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

And seriously - the recasting/casting policy here is pretty clear - DO talk about/show casting your own stuff. DO NOT talk about/show casting stuff that is the IP of someone else. Additionally, DO NOT link to people who sell recasts.

That's it.

If someone is still confused about it, just send me a PM.[/color]

well then I couldn't show off my stuff or even talk about my stuff I'm making because Robotech is the IP of HG/BigWest, etc. etc. i'm very confused ?

I know I shouldn't...

By my understanding of US law, creating figures based on another person's IP for personal use isn't illegal (something involving Fair Use, perhaps?), or at the very least it's grey/expensive enough most companies won't bother pursuing it. The grey can end when people start to *sell* those items or otherwise make profit off them. So while making personal 3D printed/sculpted figures might be (I don't know, I Am Not A Lawyer) IP infringement, I don't believe it's forbidden here on the forum.

"Re-casting" in the form of taking *an existing model, crafted by someone else, and making copies of it without their permission* is forbidden here.

You 3D printing figures is not unwelcome here.

You recasting some of your 3D printed figures to save time/money is not unwelcome here.

Recasting GHQ/PB/GW/Other Company's figures IS verboten here. Will PB send attack lawyers after Tal or Nesbet? Probably not. Dakka doesn't care, they don't want or need the heat, they have set a line in the sand and made their policy clear.

Recasting is IP infringement, IP Infringement isn't necessarily Recasting. We're specifically talking about making copies of someone else's existing figures, not simply mocking up our own Cyclones and Shapeways'ing our way to a personal Wave 3.

I suppose it could get iffy again if you scanned one of PB's LE figures and 3D printed a replica of it, but far as I'm aware nobody is doing that.

Actually recasting for your own personal use is not illegal it is on par with designing your own items based on someone elses IP, there is no difference, if you are making both for yourself that is legal, if you are making both to resell that is illegal, there is no difference between the two, why you or DakkaDakka thinks there is, is beyond me. they are both the same acts, no difference.

Asterios wrote:
Actually recasting for your own personal use is not illegal it is on par with designing your own items based on someone elses IP, there is no difference, if you are making both for yourself that is legal, if you are making both to resell that is illegal, there is no difference between the two, why you or DakkaDakka thinks there is, is beyond me. they are both the same acts, no difference.

Please read what I wrote again.

Slowly.

I never said it was illegal.

I said it was unwelcome/forbidden *here*.

Yakface (and through him, Dakkadakka) does not have to give a feth whether or not it's legally defensible. They set a line in the sand. It's a private forum, they can make talking about the band Journey or referencing the wrong Hitman game a bannable offense (both rules on one forum I frequent, should the admin catch you).

The rules I linked even note that recasting personally made items is entirely permitted! If someone wants to make their own greenstuff sculpted FPA and recast it, they can totally do that.

You know you shouldn't have. And you did it anyways.

Could we please not go any further about this?

Seriously. Please.

 Nesbet wrote:
and thanks for the link, I haven't seen this sketch before!

Sheesh. That IS big!

But it does bring up the question "If Breetai is about 14m tall, and a male Zentraedi is only 10m tall, how did a battloid VT [shown in the picture as almost as tall as Breetai.] get into a Zentraedi soldier's overcoat and not rip it to bits? Surely one of the soldiers would have realised it wasn't Breetai, so no points for saying it was his, and that wasn't shown either.

Edit:

It also seems somewhat wrong to say it, but you can tell the difference between the male and female alright - even if you've never seen the show. The FPA has pointy, high-heeled shoes, and shapely legs. Of course it's for a female. The males have somewhat satyr-like legs and a BIG GUN. 'Nuff said!

 Forar wrote:

Asterios wrote:
Actually recasting for your own personal use is not illegal it is on par with designing your own items based on someone elses IP, there is no difference, if you are making both for yourself that is legal, if you are making both to resell that is illegal, there is no difference between the two, why you or DakkaDakka thinks there is, is beyond me. they are both the same acts, no difference.

Please read what I wrote again.

Slowly.

I never said it was illegal.

I said it was unwelcome/forbidden *here*.

Yakface (and through him, Dakkadakka) does not have to give a feth whether or not it's legally defensible. They set a line in the sand. It's a private forum, they can make talking about the band Journey or referencing the wrong Hitman game a bannable offense (both rules on one forum I frequent, should the admin catch you).

The rules I linked even note that recasting personally made items is entirely permitted! If someone wants to make their own greenstuff sculpted FPA and recast it, they can totally do that.

and you missed my point, what the mod said would also include my personally designed sculpts based on the Robotech IP. my question is why draw a line that ignores the line?

 Conrad Turner wrote:

 Nesbet wrote:
and thanks for the link, I haven't seen this sketch before!

Sheesh. That IS big!

But it does bring up the question "If Breetai is about 14m tall, and a male Zentraedi is only 10m tall, how did a battloid VT [shown in the picture as almost as tall as Breetai.] get into a Zentraedi soldier's overcoat and not rip it to bits? Surely one of the soldiers would have realised it wasn't Breetai, so no points for saying it was his, and that wasn't shown either.

also the coat was big on Max's fighter too.

Okay, please stop the talk on... you know... that word.

I will probably replace many elements or create a better master that is more flexible: I strongly think it will largely be a new work by me.
It is a bit up in the air as I study what I have.
I typically only cast stuff that I made when the miniature I want does not exist (yet, sometimes).
I strongly believe a company should be compensated for their works... yes, even PB,
I would much rather they have a "proper" product to buy rather than these "character" models.
I just want the Wave 2 stuff and I will find whatever means I can "proxy" until PB gets some proper models out (yeah, I know... if ever).

This is all so I can game RRT "properly" that others will see and hopefully will be a greater net benefit to RRT.

That image is from the "Do you remember love" movie, I believe. In the TV series I seem to remember the VT's being as tall as the regular Zhent soldiers (I think I even remember in one of the episodes them showing a VT-zhent size comparison diagram - I want to say it's in the episode Claudia is talking about how she met Roy)

 Stormonu wrote:
That image is from the "Do you remember love" movie, I believe. In the TV series I seem to remember the VT's being as tall as the regular Zhent soldiers (I think I even remember in one of the episodes them showing a VT-zhent size comparison diagram - I want to say it's in the episode Claudia is talking about how she met Roy)

While I'm sure the sizes widely vary depending on which dirt cheap animator they used for that scene that particular day in the early 1980's (see the Breetai pic below when he is normally depicted as much taller than other zents), there is plenty of precedent for making zent infantry the same size as veritechs.







Please note (any always ready to pounce nitpickers and contrarians in this thread) that this isn't an all inclusive list but rather just what popped up on page one of a single image search. For instance, there is also the scene in the last few episodes where the RDF fake a zentraedi rebellion transmission to lure Kyron in and there is a zent soldier/actor next to a veritech that he was just fighting... and the veritech lights up his cigarette with his GU-11. I didn't find that scene for instance but my foggy memory tells me that they were roughly the same size as in the pics above.


And, yes, I do find it funny that the only comparison pics I've found make the zentraedi infantry look like they're always either spooning or 7th grade slow dancing with veritechs.

The key to "personal use" comes down to what you do with it the copies. US law allows to make as many copies as you want FOR YOURSELF, however once you start making them for OTHERS even if it's done for free it becomes manufacture for distribution. Unless you specifically created and designed the 3d file yourself you are using the product of somebody work so it's not protected under fair use. If you make a dozen copies and give them away to a friend you are technically violating what's allowed under fair use, will big mean PB come after you? It's highly unlikely given the numbers involved, but they could.

In that case if the court finds in their favor it would likely issue a binding order to cease production. If they managed to prove that there were grounds for damages to be awarded you could be socked with a fee that upwards to a maximum of $50k per item that was made and they could also hit you with additional fines to cover the costs of their lawyers taking you to court, the judges are supposed to base damage awards on the severity of the infringement so a large award over fairly inexpensive models would be very unlikely but legal fees add up insanely quick and even the cost of defending oneself can be crippling, even if you win. It's highly unlikely they'd actually go through the expense and hassle of a court trial over a couple of minis you made or sold, but they could if they opted to. There is no requirement that profit be made on an item before it violates fair use, you violate it as soon as you distribute; ie as soon as it leaves your personal possession.

Using shapeways prints when somebody else designed the 3d model isn't protected under the rights for fair use, it's "allowed" due to apathy and the legal costs of going after the infringement, which is this case would require tens of thousands of dollars to go after maybe a couple of hundred dollars worth of models and profits. Just don't kid yourself into thinking it's" legally ok" because you've shared the 3d files with people or paid somebody to make a file for you.

That said, they allow pictures of models to be posted on dakka so long as the source is not disclosed, as it falls under hearsay. Nobody can prove what you did or didn't make yourself based solely on the picture, but when you are a dim bulb and start posting about how "person x made it" or "I got it made it here" you are acknowledging that it was created by a third party and you are openly admitting to violating the law (US law anyways) which is why discussion of the source is against forums rules.

I'm not a lawyer but I spent a metric crap ton of time and money dealing with IP specialist lawyers on the subject back when I was sued by GW. A lot of people have a pretty fuzzy understanding of what fair use allows them to do yet they talk about it like they are an expert because they might have read an unverified wiki article that one time. The lawyers I dealt with for about a year and half are employed at a huge multimillion dollar lawfirm that specializes in IP cases and they successfully handled GW in court so I'd place my bet with them vs some random article or blog online, but hey that's just me.

I personally don't care if people recast stuff, if they have friends help them make it, or buy armies worth on shapeways but how you or I personally feel doesn't determine how the law gets applied.



The Zentraedi, Invid, and Bioroids weren't personally sculpted by you. You may have paid somebody to make the files but they aren't your personal creation, so don't talk about the source.

The picture just makes it barely believable a "Micronian" can fit in the palm of Breetia's hand.
I like how the scale looks, it seems to work.
Mind-you a Zent. warrior certainly looks physically outmatched by a VT.

 Talizvar wrote:
The picture just makes it barely believable a "Micronian" can fit in the palm of Breetia's hand.
I like how the scale looks, it seems to work.
Mind-you a Zent. warrior certainly looks physically outmatched by a VT.

There's a bit of scale optical illusion going on in that Breetai pic.



My take home view though would be even if he was the same size as a veritech, a human female fits in a veritech hand (rick's VT-1D holding Minmei in episode 2ish) so therefore a humale female fits in a zentraedi hand too. YMMV.

Early in the show they cite everything being scaled to giant sized based on the size of the enemy, so all the giant doors weren't built with the mecha in mind but were based on the original size of the crashed Zentraedi SDF. On top of numerous scenes where foot soldiers and VT stand face to face there's also a scene where Rick(?) escapes using their VT to somehow climb inside and drive a Z pod.

The soldier size is fairly consistent as being VT height, the main scale disconnect comes from how the scale of the pods seems to vary sometimes the pods are really giant and lots of times they are almost the same height as the veritechs depending on what they want to show off for the scene. The officers pod also varies a lot in it's size there are episodes where it's clearly much larger than a standard pod then other times it's shorter than the VT that it's actively engaged in punching.








The B&W scale shot posted above is from the Do You Remember Love? movie which is a different set of designs from the original series. They rescaled the Zentraedi based on their caste/rank. Both the female and male power armor are different (in addition to being rescaled) HG/PB also can't use the design for the Strike Veritech's cannons as it only appeared in the DYRL movie and not the original series, so they don't have the rights to that one.

This was the scale chart for the original series, and Khyron is definitely undersized compared to what we see later in the series when he's on foot fighting VT's by hand as he's the same height as a VT. The pods are also much bigger than most of the toys and models represent.






Pretty significant size difference in the scale chart vs this:

 warboss wrote:


There's a bit of scale optical illusion going on in that Breetai pic.

Yes, but it's taken from in front and low to the ground - from Breetai's perspective at least. That means that for the VT to look as big as Breetai, it would have to be bigger as it is behind him. If the VT is bigger than Breetai, he must be SHORT for a zent, which would explain his apparent desire for conquest in what we humans call a "Napoleon Complex" [Despite the fact that Napoleon WASN'T particularly short compared to his contemporaries.]

So where does that leave us? I'm confuddled!

Edit: @ Paulson. That picture looks more like what I had imagined, but means that no normal Zentraedi would have a coat big enough to cover a VT. How would any VT be able to be covert on a Zentraedi ship?

 Conrad Turner wrote:
Edit: @ Paulson. That picture looks more like what I had imagined, but means that no normal Zentraedi would have a coat big enough to cover a VT. How would any VT be able to be covert on a Zentraedi ship?

Plot scaling? Sorta like plot armor, but instead things fit based upon their need for the scene. It's one of those things about the series, it was done to tell a story not stand up to adult logic 30 years later.


More dancing with the stars







Kicking a VT in the crotch? seriously?