Robotech® RPG Tactics™-License lost, the end is near!

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**JohnHwangDD**

Forar wrote:
This gets a lot messier when it comes to the items actually ordered from the pledge manager, granted. I doubt many (if any) backers would be willing to trade the MAC-II they've wanted for years for, I dunno, a pair of VTs more than the collection they already have.

I paid an extra $40 for that MAC-II. Give me my MAC-II or give me my money back.

ETA - if I'm going to take it in trade, Kevin or NMI can give me a 15 minutes in a MMA ring. I may not be as fast as I used to be, but I'll be bringing a lot of adrenaline. And considering the sheer number of people who'd want in on it, I wouldn't even care if my job was just to soften the them up for the next guy. Just watching the subsequent beatdown would be reward enough.

**Forar**

Asterios wrote:
big problem with that option is cost of S&H lets face it I highly doubt PB could even afford to pay the Shipping costs to send out substitutes to even a small portion of the backers (say 10-20%) so even that is not an option. a refund might still be the cheaper option overall.

There is that as well. Which becomes a question of whether it's worth paying like $20 in shipping to fire off a core or two to a backer versus just refunding that backer $30 or $40. Within the US I think it might at least be possible to sort the math on that. Internationally I assume it'd fall apart without asking for more in shipping from backers, and yeah, it goes without saying that "paying them more for more stuff I don't really even want in the first place" holds even less appeal.

The idea is obviously predicated on turning stale product into reduced obligations, but the size and mass of that product and the realities of shipping make that less viable, certainly.

Unless they could find a shipping solution that would accept core boxes in payment...

And yeah, what John said. That's definitely a sticking point. When my friends and I paid in extra in the PM for Armored Battloids and MAC-II's (3 of them!) and Booster Sled Officer's Pods and whatnot, we definitely weren't looking to change that into more VT's and Pods (we've got 8 Battle Cry tiers between us, believe me, we're good for 'random chaff we don't use').

It's surely an unwieldy hypothetical. The shipping costs would probably tank it, at least for non-Americans, and it'd probably require admitting failure/fault more than they've ever shown the capacity to.

But even as an unlikely pipe dream, it'd still show more of a semblance of movement than they've managed in the last 2 years. Why not spice things up and embrace one impossible fantasy (compensation with more wave one!) over another (wave 2 ever existing!)? :-P

**Talizvar**

I would have let this KS go if I had not been stupid and bought a bunch of the wave 2 vaporware on the backerkit.

I just HAD to go for MOAR shiny stuff.
I was kicking myself for not getting the Monster... not so much now but still.

In regards to those "hard hitting interviews" that is astoundingly bad.
Some notes, a bit of prep time... really guy.
I had meant to get around to seeing a few of his videos... nevermind.

I am pretty impressed how the "fans" continue to keep PB "relevant" at Gencon.
Oh well, they will be so exhausted we will probably not see anything for two weeks.

**Albertorius**

warboss wrote:
Some of the Gamer Goggles gencon videos are coming up on their channel over the past few days. As an example of the hard hitting type of journalism we should expect in the interview with the nefarious Kevin Siembieda, the video opens with "I forgot what I was going to ask you" and follows up with the poignant question of "You ran into a couple of delays that turned out to be blessings in disguise?"... on a kickstarter where the company watched the canadian dollar tank in value roughly 20% while they were delayed due to inappropriate digital sculpting/mould manufacturing issues but kept their money in CAD despite needing to pay the manufacturer in the US in (no shock) USD... and had to cut two different stretch goals that were funded with no replacement of those models in metal/resin despite their pre-funding promise to do exactly that in that situation. They spin in that they "added" extra bits but they didn't enlarge any sprues so the decision to cut two whole sprues/models from the rewards had no relation to how they organized the bits on the other sprues. So, yeah, a blessing in disguise with that delay. Don't get me wrong... the HG kickstarter even with the above (and the rougly one year delay) is set to deliver 90% of what they set out to a bit less than a year late and they were relatively open about the issues unlike this Robotech gak show... but it was certainly NOT a "blessing in disguise" to retract two funded stretch goals despite the leading softball question asked by the Matt. If you watch the other videos, you'll see the same softball unprepared "interview" style as well.

I'd expect given the pace that the Robotech interview will be up later today or tomorrow.

Given everything, I suspect the only "blessing in disguise" they had was having the company start production near Gen Con so that they were able to divert said production to sell it at the con instead of shipping it first to backers as they said they would:

Heavy Gear KS FAQ wrote:These rewards will be for the models and components selected only. Final packaging and casting for retail will be completed only after the rewards due to our backers have been cast. This is to keep the total time to completion as short as possible

Turns out... not so much.

**Talizvar**

Okay, I think I figured out the bans and comment deletions at Kickstarter:
Basically any comments against Kickstarter gets those handed out.
I had made a comment that Kickstarter is organized in such a way it is incredibly hard to organize a legal action as backers: that post got deleted.
One other fellow claimed "Kickstarter is the new way to rip off people." and a smattering of deletions followed that trail.
It seems it is perfectly fine to direct your ire at the creator but not KS.
I should really not sound so surprised.

**Merijeek**

Ah, so that would be why my post about the RRT KS being a great success (because Kevin got $1.44M and delivered a fraction of what was promised and can continue to hold the money forever as long as he's "working on it") but I can refer to NMI as giving a Ruiz and it's fine?

Interesting.

**warboss**

So they don't tolerate any criticism of their platform on their platform? No wonder they get along so swimmingly with Palladium!

**Nesbet**

LOL

Seriously guys... refunds? Kevin sending you moar wave 1 boxes? Even considering paying shipping for moar starter sets you do not want? lolmao...

The only thing I would accept as a possible compensation is to get all the 3D models of the wave 2 miniatures, to print them by myself and erase PB from my life, once and for all.

**n815e**

warboss wrote:
Some of the Gamer Goggles gencon videos are coming up on their channel over the past few days. As an example of the hard hitting type of journalism we should expect in the interview with the nefarious Kevin Siembieda, the video opens with "I forgot what I was going to ask you" and follows up with the poignant question of "You ran into a couple of delays that turned out to be blessings in disguise?"... on a kickstarter where the company watched the canadian dollar tank in value roughly 20% while they were delayed due to inappropriate digital sculpting/mould manufacturing issues but kept their money in CAD despite needing to pay the manufacturer in the US in (no shock) USD... and had to cut two different stretch goals that were funded with no replacement of those models in metal/resin despite their pre-funding promise to do exactly that in that situation. They spin in that they "added" extra bits but they didn't enlarge any sprues so the decision to cut two whole sprues/models from the rewards had no relation to how they organized the bits on the other sprues. So, yeah, a blessing in disguise with that delay. Don't get me wrong... the HG kickstarter even with the above (and the rougly one year delay) is set to deliver 90% of what they set out to a bit less than a year late and they were relatively open about the issues unlike this Robotech gak show... but it was certainly NOT a "blessing in disguise" to retract two funded stretch goals despite the leading softball question asked by the Matt. If you watch the other videos, you'll see the same softball unprepared "interview" style as well.

I'd expect given the pace that the Robotech interview will be up later today or tomorrow.

He was actually asking for people to donate funds to pay for him to go to Gencon to produce these interviews.

**warboss**

n815e wrote:

He was actually asking for people to donate funds to pay for him to go to Gencon to produce these interviews.

Well, he did succeed at doing so in the past once so why not try again? If others are willing to fund your vacation with one game slots worth of work per day, why not take them up on the offer? He deserves any and all flak for his piss poor interview skills and general lack of preparation beyond packing a mic and camera...but I do admit he increased the sheer volume of interviews this year. Maybe paying patrons had specific requests about who to awkwardly stand next to in silence after asking 1-2 basic ubiquitous questions?

**Asterios**

n815e wrote:
warboss wrote:
Some of the Gamer Goggles gencon videos are coming up on their channel over the past few days. As an example of the hard hitting type of journalism we should expect in the interview with the nefarious Kevin Siembieda, the video opens with "I forgot what I was going to ask you" and follows up with the poignant question of "You ran into a couple of delays that turned out to be blessings in disguise?"... on a kickstarter where the company watched the canadian dollar tank in value roughly 20% while they were delayed due to inappropriate digital sculpting/mould manufacturing issues but kept their money in CAD despite needing to pay the manufacturer in the US in (no shock) USD... and had to cut two different stretch goals that were funded with no replacement of those models in metal/resin despite their pre-funding promise to do exactly that in that situation. They spin in that they "added" extra bits but they didn't enlarge any sprues so the decision to cut two whole sprues/models from the rewards had no relation to how they organized the bits on the other sprues. So, yeah, a blessing in disguise with that delay. Don't get me wrong... the HG kickstarter even with the above (and the rougly one year delay) is set to deliver 90% of what they set out to a bit less than a year late and they were relatively open about the issues unlike this Robotech gak show... but it was certainly NOT a "blessing in disguise" to retract two funded stretch goals despite the leading softball question asked by the Matt. If you watch the other videos, you'll see the same softball unprepared "interview" style as well.

I'd expect given the pace that the Robotech interview will be up later today or tomorrow.

He was actually asking for people to donate funds to pay for him to go to Gencon to produce these interviews.

think i would stand a better chance of getting donations to go confront Kevin about the lack of wave 2, provided it was filmed.

**Albertorius**

warboss wrote:
So they don't tolerate any criticism of their platform on their platform? No wonder they get along so swimmingly with Palladium!

Yeah, that surely fills me with confidence.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nesbet wrote:
LOL

Seriously guys... refunds? Kevin sending you moar wave 1 boxes? Even considering paying shipping for moar starter sets you do not want? lolmao...

The only thing I would accept as a possible compensation is to get all the 3D models of the wave 2 miniatures, to print them by myself and erase PB from my life, once and for all.

Right now, that would work for me. Well, that or a meteor striking PB's wharehouse or something.

**Conrad Turner**

As to the recent flurry of "Refund" posts.

Not going to happen. If PB had the money for refunds, they'd have the money to produce wave 2(, 3, and 4.).

Not going to accept a core box for what I pledged for, It doesn't have anything in it that I wanted in the first place. I wanted the character models, SDF-1, and YF-4. Had that gone well, I'd have bought a MAC-II by now retail. But as I can't, I won't.

So far as I'm concerned, I am not impressed by them sending me the decal sheet I added in through the PM and not getting even my base pledge so far. They can <censored> send me what I <Bleep> pledged for, or they can refund me in full. If I have to send the decal sheet back, I will do - it's no <censored> good to me without the models to put them on.

**Morgan Vening**

Conrad Turner wrote:
As to the recent flurry of "Refund" posts.

Not going to happen. If PB had the money for refunds, they'd have the money to produce wave 2(, 3, and 4.).

That's not really an accurate assessment. They could conceivably have the money. And they're just too lazy/disorganized (This is so much work! And I don't wanna!), too stupid (We don't know what we're doing! What if we made them out of tapioca?), or too greedy (I want to keep most of the moneys! Must make it cheaper!), or a combination of the three, to finish it out.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they have the money. But it's arguably possible. Given the progress they make on their RPG's (1/8 for first half 2016), the lazy/disorganized part wouldn't be a stretch.

Conrad Turner wrote:
Not going to accept a core box for what I pledged for, It doesn't have anything in it that I wanted in the first place. I wanted the character models, SDF-1, and YF-4. Had that gone well, I'd have bought a MAC-II by now retail. But as I can't, I won't.

So far as I'm concerned, I am not impressed by them sending me the decal sheet I added in through the PM and not getting even my base pledge so far. They can <censored> send me what I <Bleep> pledged for, or they can refund me in full. If I have to send the decal sheet back, I will do - it's no <censored> good to me without the models to put them on.

Yeah, I can understand not wanting retail stock in exchange, especially after having seen what it actually looks like.

And while you're not the most financially put out (several people are owed thousands), you're definitely the backer that at least percentage wise, has been screwed the most (at least that we know of). "Lookit what I got for backing RRT for $100!" *waves decal sheet*. I wonder how Kevin would argue you've already gotten your money's worth (as he did to those BBB requests).

**Albertorius**

They might still have part of the money. But they still want to keep the lights on... and stringing backers instead of fulfilling a KS sure is cheaper.

**Conrad Turner**

Thanks for that Morgan. Best laugh I've had all week! [It's been a low week, it's true, but still, the best laugh]

I was only trying to state that:

Money for refunds = Money for production.

It is, as you say, entirely possible that they have not run out of money, but of enthusiasm and they just CBA on the rest of it.

But if I have a choice, I'd still rather have what I pledged for than a refund. I'd take either over years more wait, and if all else fails, I'd put up with local backers dancing on the ashes of PB's business.

I may just have to make a T-shirt slogan out of what you said in that last paragraph though.

**jaymz**

@warboss - never noticed the pm until today. Responded.

**n815e**

I guess it is indicative of where things are that NMI has begun buying models on Shapeways for the Wave 2 stuff.

**Talizvar**

n815e wrote:
I guess it is indicative of where things are that NMI has begun buying models on Shapeways for the Wave 2 stuff.

How do you know this?
I would figure him of all people would hide that fact, unless some of the models shown at Gencon are his?
It may explain also how many of those creators have not seen a takedown request.

**warboss**

Talizvar wrote:
n815e wrote:
I guess it is indicative of where things are that NMI has begun buying models on Shapeways for the Wave 2 stuff.
How do you know this?
I would figure him of all people would hide that fact, unless some of the models shown at Gencon are his?
It may explain also how many of those creators have not seen a takedown request yet until he gets his supposed orders.

I fixed that for you.

**megatrons2nd**

It's PB's master plan, buy all the Shapeways stuff, send it to a printing company, and have them cut it into parts to send out to us. No Sculpting fees, and you can't sue them because they are the license holder, and the shapeways stuff is not produced with legal permissions.

**Talizvar**

Thanks guys.
Can always count on you lot to crank my paranoia up to 100.
This is something my friends would do, don't be going all sentimental on me now.

Quick! A rush on Shapeways!!!

**Conrad Turner**

Ah! That's why wave 2 is taking so long.

1/ PB don't want to tip their hand, so are only buying a few at a time. [so that once they have finished all the 'wave 2' pledges, they can sue and make a load of money back which will then allow them to produce more of wave 2 .... I mean 3, or is it 5?]

2/ Cutting up those models so we can glue them together is 'HARD' work, guys! [they must be making tons of mistakes and then having to wait another week to order more!]

**n815e**

Talizvar wrote:
n815e wrote:
I guess it is indicative of where things are that NMI has begun buying models on Shapeways for the Wave 2 stuff.
How do you know this?
I would figure him of all people would hide that fact, unless some of the models shown at Gencon are his?
It may explain also how many of those creators have not seen a takedown request.

He posted on Mike's group that he bought some of those Gnerls.

**warboss**

You should take a screengrab of that, you know, for posterity... or when he cracks down on others doing the exact same thing like when he trolled the Ninja Division facebook page constantly by posting where's robotech questions on every post they made while at the same time cracking down on any dissent on Palladium's forums including asking the exact same question of Palladium.

**Talizvar**

n815e wrote:
He posted on Mike's group that he bought some of those Gnerls.

Ah! My main weakness: I do not like Facebook.
I think it officially makes me an old guy... maybe even a luddite.
Thanks for the info... I am rather surprised by his admitting that.

**Asterios**

warboss wrote:
So they don't tolerate any criticism of their platform on their platform? No wonder they get along so swimmingly with Palladium!

well here is the problem, KickStarter has just put their big ole foot in their mouth, and its all because they wan't to give the illusion of control, yet do nothing, problem is they offer no other avenue of contact between backers and with several backers trying to organize a lawsuit against PB and with the KS forums being the only means of contact offered by KS, by banning such people KS is doing what is called Tortious interference (very loosely but still applicable) which is against the law, so KS has essentially made a boo boo, one that will require them to do one of two things, unban people or those imply such violations, or offer another avenue for backers to contact each other.

**warboss**

The guy I bought some old scale Heavy Gear minis from a few months back put it best... it isn't a message board but rather a splat board. No organization, just stream of consciousness that is very hard to follow with people throwing stuff at it to see what sticks. Add in that the OG internet nerd in me (the guy who used to carry around the netscape beta program on a 3.5" floppy) doesn't like the closed off real name website that facebook represents.

**Talizvar**

Asterios wrote:
... problem is they offer no other avenue of contact between backers and with several backers trying to organize a lawsuit against PB and with the KS forums being the only means of contact offered by KS, by banning such people KS is doing what is called Tortious interference (very loosely but still applicable) which is against the law, so KS has essentially made a boo boo, one that will require them to do one of two things, unban people or those imply such violations, or offer another avenue for backers to contact each other.

That day I got banned I thought I had a eureka moment when I realized that to contact the people within a given KS project was near impossible except through the forums and it was rather "cleverly" done.
As soon as I said anything around that line it was erase and ban.
So that seems to have hit a nerve over there.
If it as illegal thing to do... that is more interesting.
I figured Kickstarter really did not care but now I have experience a more active censoring which has cast serious doubt on me continuing with Kickstarter.
If the creator has his act together and means well, you would have no issues.
If there are problems and you are to try to take matters up with the creator: KS only wants you to do it individually not as a class action suit.

Weird. Ignorance is bliss until you find out a group is more "evil" than you thought.

**n815e**

warboss wrote:
You should take a screengrab of that, you know, for posterity... or when he cracks down on others doing the exact same thing like when he trolled the Ninja Division facebook page constantly by posting where's robotech questions on every post they made while at the same time cracking down on any dissent on Palladium's forums including asking the exact same question of Palladium.

My first account on PB's forums got deleted for questioning NMI's behavior on the ND FB pages.