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OK, so we weren't coerced, merely lured.

But PB has still defrauded us, right?

If fraud is still the word for taking money under false pretences, they did.

Mouth-watering detail is MIA, product that was "98%" ready is not available 3 years later, and PB are about as "hands off" as a kleptomaniac. That should be enough false pretences for anyone.

Rick again you of all people with your so called "legal expertise" know full well words mean things and technicalities will end things right quick if not accurate so you know what ypu can do with your "technicality"




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ct that i dont dispute.

Using improper terms especially with these clowns will only help them not the backers.

jaymz wrote:
Rick again you of all people with your so called "legal expertise" know full well words mean things and technicalities will end things right quick if not accurate so you know what ypu can do with your "technicality"

you keep saying that, but not once did I say I was approaching this from a legal aspect, as to technicalities you should know from your armchair lawyering it is all about reasonable doubt and what the jury believes, law has nothing to do with it, its all about the jury.

 Talizvar wrote:
Saw a person providing links to the PB Rifts cards on the Savage Worlds: Rifts KS.
I mentioned the RRT backer issues and to "try" not to send money directly to PB.
Usual comments to not "wreck people's fun" and "this KS has nothing to do with it", then I reminded them the items are NOT KS but PB's "me too!" product.
It boils down to views of "that is your problem, don't make it mine"... fair enough I guess.
Makes me hesitant to bother with the impending board game.
I suspect with miniatures involved it will launch in a similar fashion to RRT.

I think Palladium had found the perfect niche for their work ethic: fan-boys will ignore and do many things to get what they covet.
"It is like you want them to close their doors or something, then you would NEVER get your stuff."
That is the point if they cannot keep a consumer agreement: they DESERVE to be shut down for coercing money from me and keeping it without the agreed compensation.

I really don't want to see anyone else get taken for a ride, but these guys who say "not our problem" or "you should have known better" or any other phrase that basically means that they don't care that their favorite company ripped people off, I do hope they sign up for "Carmen's" ks.
Especially the guys that say we should be happy our money went to keeping PB in business and that is our reward.
Those guys should go all in on the ks, so they can fund our wave 2 and then sit for years waiting for their stuff.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Asterios wrote:

jaymz wrote:
Rick again you of all people with your so called "legal expertise" know full well words mean things and technicalities will end things right quick if not accurate so you know what ypu can do with your "technicality"

you keep saying that, but not once did I say I was approaching this from a legal aspect, as to technicalities you should know from your armchair lawyering it is all about reasonable doubt and what the jury believes, law has nothing to do with it, its all about the jury.

Rick, you should check one of these out. I think you will find them useful.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dictionary&oq=dictionary&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l15.2667j0j4&sourceid=silk&ie=UTF-8

 n815e wrote:
I really don't want to see anyone else get taken for a ride, but these guys who say "not our problem" or "you should have known better" or any other phrase that basically means that they don't care that their favorite company ripped people off, I do hope they sign up for "Carmen's" ks.
Especially the guys that say we should be happy our money went to keeping PB in business and that is our reward.
Those guys should go all in on the ks, so they can fund our wave 2 and then sit for years waiting for their stuff.

A really petty part of me is in total agreement with this.
It was rather hard to try to appeal to the more balanced people while having the selfish reply with drivel.
These would be the same people who would cry to all who would listen of being hard done by if it did not work out... selfish hypocrisy does not sit well with me.

While I am on the topic, I guess we wait till the weekly no information update from PB.
Many say wave2 will never happen, I have this sneaking suspicion wave 2 will come out in some five years or so.
Shipping costs however will be "updated" at an inflated amount to (no good word for this) blackmail? / coerce? / bilk... hey! "Bilk" is correct!!!... to BILK money from us one more time to get wave 2 one part models made of melted crayons.

And still ypu miss the point rick. It is highly unlikely this case would be by jury.

You want to clsim technicality go for it. You want to claim coersion to create doubt go for it. As soon as it is shown you chose to give them money the only doubt will be your caee having ligitimacy. PB doesnt deserve this kind of stupidly simple mistake to help them in any future court proceedings. Dont help them. Be correct and accurate in every single possible aspect with facts not "technicalities"

WRT other PB-related KS:

Basically it's the same situation as RRT was at the start: supposedly done by someone else, PB is approving party.

Same as the start: Do your research on the background of the company.

At that time, I was aware of PB's reputation for delays, but was misled to think ND would do the bulk of the work, since it laid mostly outside of PB's traditional domain. In mitigation, there wasn't AFAIK an earlier, similar KS.

For the Rifts boardgame, all I am willing to say to potential backers is that there is now a precedence for non-completion in RRT that they have to consider. At the end of the day, it's their money, I can only objectively state the facts as they happened for their considerations.

Heck I might even toss a dollar their way just to be able to have popcorn rights if things turn the RRT way.

jaymz wrote:
And still ypu miss the point rick. It is highly unlikely this case would be by jury.

You want to clsim technicality go for it. You want to claim coersion to create doubt go for it. As soon as it is shown you chose to give them money the only doubt will be your caee having ligitimacy. PB doesnt deserve this kind of stupidly simple mistake to help them in any future court proceedings. Dont help them. Be correct and accurate in every single possible aspect with facts not "technicalities"

oh if the case had gone to court I would not go for coercion, since there are so many avenues PB is guilty of, but I repeat where do you get taking this case to court? its all about being facetious, and the only way this case would not go to jury is if it is settled in arbitration.

I am just i trying to be accurate. Too many people will actually think coersion if talked about enougb. Thus technicality or not dont do it.

jaymz wrote:
I am just i trying to be accurate. Too many people will actually think coersion if talked about enougb. Thus technicality or not dont do it.

I don't think anyone was taking coercion seriously except for you, we were making fun, you just had to spoil it.

Take a better look to the past rick. There are many that very much wod take it at face value.

Keep things correct and accurate. Avoids ANY issue that may arise.

My only interest is if ob gets nailed that they dont get off on a "technicality"

I believe the technical term for what happened to us is "suckered"

jaymz wrote:
Take a better look to the past rick. There are many that very much wod take it at face value.

Keep things correct and accurate. Avoids ANY issue that may arise.

My only interest is if ob gets nailed that they dont get off on a "technicality"

and like I said I highly doubt anyone took it seriously except for you, if anything I would say PB is akin to a snake oil salesman.

 Conrad Turner wrote:
OK, so we weren't coerced, merely lured.

But PB has still defrauded us, right?

If fraud is still the word for taking money under false pretences, they did.

Mouth-watering detail is MIA, product that was "98%" ready is not available 3 years later, and PB are about as "hands off" as a kleptomaniac. That should be enough false pretences for anyone.

Blah blah blah. Clearly you aren't taking into account Kickstarter fairy dust.

*sigh*

"Coercion is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats or some other form of pressure or force."

The KS campaign explicitly was not 'a threat that it won't get made if we don't do it'. That level of negativity was never even glanced at, and it funded in 3 fething hours or so as I recall. Ninja Division's messaging was quite consistent through that month; it'll be great, looks good, plays well, models are coming along, oh look here's another teaser, ooooh we passed another stretch goal! WOOOOOOOO!'

Yeah, I'm fuzzy on things from 3 years ago too, but can we stop doubling down on this 'well technically...' twisting words and meanings into pretzels to avoid having to simply say 'okay, it wasn't literal coercion, but it was misdirection and a false representation of how far they were along' and we can all agree and high five on that.

PB has done plenty of shady, underhanded, stupid, questionable, and ridiculous things (as a starting point) without having to make things up, or (verbally) force square pegs into round holes. What next, do we declare they murdered a guy? Oh, maybe it wasn't murder murder, but like a murder... etc.

And I'm self aware enough to recognize that I'm in fact contributing to the problem, but for feth's sake can we (and by we I mean Rick) just admit to being wrong once in a while instead of arguing minutia?

It's not the end of the world to be wrong, mistaken, incorrect, etc. The apparent need to never be wrong is just toxic. It's up there with un-ironic hyperbolic statements for things that make discourse on this topic (and specifically on the KS comments and in this thread) unnecessarily frustrating at times.

 Forar wrote:
*sigh*

"Coercion is the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats or some other form of pressure or force."

The KS campaign explicitly was not 'a threat that it won't get made if we don't do it'. That level of negativity was never even glanced at, and it funded in 3 fething hours or so as I recall. Ninja Division's messaging was quite consistent through that month; it'll be great, looks good, plays well, models are coming along, oh look here's another teaser, ooooh we passed another stretch goal! WOOOOOOOO!'

Yeah, I'm fuzzy on things from 3 years ago too, but can we stop doubling down on this 'well technically...' twisting words and meanings into pretzels to avoid having to simply say 'okay, it wasn't literal coercion, but it was misdirection and a false representation of how far they were along' and we can all agree and high five on that.

PB has done plenty of shady, underhanded, stupid, questionable, and ridiculous things (as a starting point) without having to make things up, or (verbally) force square pegs into round holes. What next, do we declare they murdered a guy? Oh, maybe it wasn't murder murder, but like a murder... etc.

And I'm self aware enough to recognize that I'm in fact contributing to the problem, but for feth's sake can we (and by we I mean Rick) just admit to being wrong once in a while instead of arguing minutia?

It's not the end of the world to be wrong, mistaken, incorrect, etc. The apparent need to never be wrong is just toxic. It's up there with un-ironic hyperbolic statements for things that make discourse on this topic (and specifically on the KS comments and in this thread) unnecessarily frustrating at times.

well Technically PB did murder this game

I think a few brain cells were murdered in the last few hours here too.

Prepare to lose more, Mike, because the gamer goggles interview with master sleazeball Siembieda is up.




I'll be live blogging the pertinent parts as I watch.

1) The reason for the delay is reducing the piece count. The same rinse, lather, repeat excuse we've been given now for about 16 months or so since Adepticon 2015. Gamer Goggles response? "There are other silly things too."

2) Kevin really wants to get the project out in 2017. It's been "long enough" and he has to "make some sort of decision on wave 2". Kevin keeps alluding to a process that can significantly lower the piece count because quotes he got reducing parts from 24 to 18 per mecha weren't enough apparently despite two years since wave 1 was intended to premiere at gencon. Gamer Goggles response? "gamers don't realize" how long it takes and he goes on an apologist excuse on behalf of Kevin almost as long as Kevin's own excuse.

3) They don't want to show us progress because things may change. "People don't understand" according to Kevin. His 98% done quote was based on having a render and then *BAM* the chinese (his words) would just make the mould. "BOOM!" (sic) I'm awaiting a bada bing next. He's been talking with Robert from Dream Pod 9 about kickstarter problems... of course heavy gear is "only" almost a year late unlike almost 3 years for Robotech. Gamer Goggles response? "Knuckle up, people." @ the backers/viewers. Then he lies about the Heavy Gear Drake having 150+ pieces as justification for Robotech gamers having no reason to complain. Btw, here's the Drake's parts pic from the official store with by my quick count just over 40 pieces (about 6-8 of which you won't use since they're weapon options for three different mutually exclusive loadouts on a model roughly 3x the height of a destroid). I don't think Lemke can count.



4) Palladium will do their "darndest" to rebuild trust with the gaming community and to try and communicate more and to get more support material out. In other words, everything they promised and FAILED in their great restart of communication last year verbally copy pasted into this year's interview. Gamer Goggles response? Proceed to the next question.

5) Palladium doesn't communicate any details because they don't want people getting their hopes up (mission accomplished! hopes couldn't be any lower!) or upset (abort! abort!). Gamer Goggles response? It's a bad idea to talk about what might be. Yay... Nods heads... lets move to other games.

RRT part of the interview seems to end about the 14 minute mark.

6) Roach has been working on the scenario book according to Kevin for 6 months but according to roach for a year and a half. "We have been doing stuff!" says Kevin. They focused on RPG books earlier this year... that's the spin. The cold hard facts is that their "focus" on getting out over 6 rpg books in as many months resulted in a single book to show for 6 months worth of supposed effort.

7) Rifts Boardgame will supposedly be ready to go and be in the stores four months after funding because Carmen has learned from robotech fumbles. Lol, sound familiar? 98% done, ready to go into manufacturing in about 40 days.. yet here we are three years later and palladium still hasn't made a decision on half the stuff. Gamer Goggles respone? "You can hire me!" to Kevin.

And that seems to be an appropriate and suitable end to the fawning interview. Gotta say... called it about Gamer Goggles!

Wow, he really went out of his way to emphasise his man boobs.

why do I feel like it was "PB" that asked the questions he did?

Let's leave the physical commentary out. I'm sure more than one of the readers here in the thread has man boobs (looking down at my chest unfortuantely). There is plenty of commentary comedy gold in just the chummy attitude toward Kevin contrasted with the contempt for fellow backers.

"I think its been long enough..."

Ya think?!?

1, 2 or 3 months until the 'final determination' = not this year.

So...2017 isn't looking good.

All the stuff that 'is coming' has been 'coming' for a long, long time now.

So, no longer claiming "soon... (tm) (r) (c)"

I love how they are tweaking molds to reduce parts count......but DON'T have a MANUFACTURER chosen. Let that percolate for a bit......a little longer..........

How are you adjusting parts count, when you haven't even picked a manufacturer yet? Where is there any back and forth about parts count from a manufacturer, when you still haven't selected one? Who is adjusting the models when there isn't a company to cut the 3D renders into molds?

The chance of 2017 is out the window, they haven't picked a manufacturer, so there is no way the back and forth to reduce parts count is done.

I suppose if you're the optimistic sort then they've done a stellar job in reducing the parts count... to 1! via the paper game pieces for wave 2 to show for two years worth of "effort" and something that a fan could probably put together in a weekend. And if they were making that stuff on their own dime then it wouldn't be as big of an issue but they're not; we funded what would be wave 2 plastic minis for delivery in 2013, not coloring book paper cutouts consolation products for 2016.

Thank you for suffering so that others wouldn't have to, Warboss.

Truly that was the hard hitting journalism we'd expected.

No worries, Forar.. I can now unsuscribe from that channel again after dropping some thumbs down on various videos. The screen cap that youtube automatically generated seems to sum up the video for all anyways. Matt Lemke staring vapidly off in the distance while Kevin illustrates how he is has robotech backers by the balls and is squeezing them for all they're worth.

 warboss wrote:
No worries, Forar.. I can now unsuscribe from that channel again after dropping some thumbs down on various videos. The screen cap that youtube automatically generated seems to sum up the video for all anyways. Matt Lemke staring vapidly off in the distance while Kevin illustrates how he is has robotech backers by the balls and is squeezing them for all they're worth.

I didn't see that in the initial pass, but when I scrolled back up, yes, it's a great summation of the screencap.

I'll add to Forar's thanks for doing that. Because I'm not sure I could have got through it, given the "information" that was forthcoming.

Well, what we did learn from that video is that if successfully funded rifts boardgame backers will have their product in hand before we have wave 2 if the timeline sticks.

Really, "People don't understand" ?

No, because PB won't tell us what's (not) going on...