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Of course they deleted, factual information has no place on FOTM.

Guys...everytime there is a new book about to drop we generally get one or two staffers who seem to unexpectedly and "surprisingly" to Kevin, go into Kevin's office to specifically tell him how awesome his writing is and specifically HIS writing even though most of the book has been written by someone else entirely in most cases.

This time it is Alex. Last time I think it was Chuck and Wayne. Before that Julius. Wash rinse repeat.

jaymz wrote:
Guys...everytime there is a new book about to drop we generally get one or two staffers who seem to unexpectedly and "surprisingly" to Kevin, go into Kevin's office to specifically tell him how awesome his writing is and specifically HIS writing even though most of the book has been written by someone else entirely in most cases.

This time it is Alex. Last time I think it was Chuck and Wayne. Before that Julius. Wash rinse repeat.

Exactly.

It's always his best werk EVAR! Especially when it was written by someone else.

So... here's a question.

If Paladium suddenly delivered resin models instead of plastic could they then say done? I think so since other companies have changed casting mediums before delivery.

Well, what if they send out printed cards for Wave 2? Or just point to the free cards online? Can they then say done?

It's not like they have any good will to lose and if it got this off the table...

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So... here's a question.

If Paladium suddenly delivered resin models instead of plastic could they then say done? I think so since other companies have changed casting mediums before delivery.

Well, what if they send out printed cards for Wave 2? Or just point to the free cards online? Can they then say done?

It's not like they have any good will to lose and if it got this off the table...

Because it was explicitly stated as ABS plastic, I don't think they could make that change without offering a refund for those backers who do not wish the material change. It might be a sketchier argument if it was a slightly different plastic, but resin/metal/origami cardboard would be a "material" breach (I made a funny!) IMO. This was a specifically defined thing, and a unilateral change without offering people an out, would be problematic. Resin is especially a difficult thing, due to it's inherent potential for health risks. This probably wouldn't apply to people who bought resin components, but would to those that didn't, specifically because of the health risks.

That doesn't take into account how resin isn't particularly useful for a project of this size. Anything in a BattleCry, they're going to need approximately 7K of, for character models. and 15K+ of anything else. Labor (it takes longer per), and production costs (resin molds degrade much faster, so redo) likely wouldn't be commercially viable (vs plastics) at that scale. Depending on if PB do manufacturing locally (ie, within the US), the inherent increased labor costs will probably mitigate the increased shipping costs (resin being heavier, and needing better protection). If it's international, shipping costs would be absurd.

The PDF cards MIGHT have withstood scrutiny, except in consistent PB fashion, they screwed themselves here in Update #49.

All game cards, across the entire game, will be upgraded to laminate cards. Use your dry erase markers to track damage and ammo. No sleeves required!

Highlighted section indicates the problem.

Basically, PB are in a huge pickle with regards promises made. Minor infractions might have been able to be ignored, if they hadn't dicked people around for the better part of three years (and counting). People's intolerance for change, general desire for a refund, and vitriol for the company, are at all time highs. A smartly run, communicative campaign can and has gotten away with changes. Not all backers are happy (Shadows of Brimstone, and Heavy Gear, for example have had changes), but that's usually countered by a large number of the backerbase who are supportive. With RRT, there are very few backers publicly supportive of Palladium, and most of those are heavily caveated. Kevin's basically up poop creek without a paddle, and that's the reason they're playing the long game.

That's not to say PB offering resin alts might not work. It's quite possible that a number of backers would take them up on it. If demand is significant enough, and if it looked like retail might have an impact, refunding those who don't want it, might be a minor inconvenience. After all, Kevin claims there's only a couple dozen backers who are unhappy. Of course, if that were true, they could have refunded those backers with relative simplicity, and avoided the last three years of people yelling and mocking them on the Kickstarter. So I don't think it's likely. Or even unlikely. But it's possible.

Really, I would not care. Doesn't matter to me (personal opinion) if PB decides to bring us wave 2 in resin, soft plastic, Reaper Bones plastic, chunks of metal, white metal or ABS. Even that cheap zvesda plastic would work for me. Anything would be better than empty promises...
Now, regarding options, I think the most "good/cheap" alternative would be Bones. Details in resin could be fantastic, but as stated before, is expensive, requires a lot of work to cast them, transport them, send them, etc... Almost the same with metallic miniatures. And soft plastic break too much, bones can be bent, but does not break

On other topic... Wayne uploaded the final card remaining today: Sulreen-Tehr. Just one. The last one.
Any thoughts about what's happening next?

I am not part of the industry but what I think.....

It would really depend on what the format original drawings or sculptures are in. I remember originally the files they had was the wrong type for the manufacturer; so all
the files had to be redone. So if the files (if there is any) could be 3D printed out,assembled, then maybe they could do resin casts of that...So Yes. But with that being said..
The big thing I would worry about is quality.. Palladium games have no clue how to do resin molds and Uncle Kevin would be the over seer of it. If you look at
their current rift miniatures, most look awful; It looks like they try to do everything in house or use someone that has little to no experience for the cheapest way possible.
Maybe this is the delay all along.. the original models were already designed by Ninja Division and now they need to hire someone to sculpt the remaining models and
Uncle Kev don't want to pay the right people to do the job correctly..

I think we should feel lucky the current models turned out as good as they did.. I would hope Harmony Gold had something to do with that to make sure it didn't damage
their licence..

Morgan Vening wrote:

Resin is especially a difficult thing, due to it's inherent potential for health risks. This probably wouldn't apply to people who bought resin components, but would to those that didn't, specifically because of the health risks.

Sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine. It's resin, not liquid cast death. If you have chemical sensitivities, you're likely less affected by contact with most resin than with the cya glue used to assemble models. If you're sanding it, it's generallly only an issue with prolonged aggressive sanding of large models (not applicable here)... And simple abrasive particulate precautions like ventilation and a 50 cent mask solve that. Hobby knives likely cause more injuries every year than all of forgeworld's resin ever used will. While I agree that a change in materials would be a significant breach of the kickstarter contract given the emphasis palladium themselves put on the material, it's not a public health hazard if they did so.

Well, looks like we are still wrestling with the 3D model stage of wave 2.
They may not be usable as they are.
They would need hacking up based on the molding process used.
Until a process and company can be settled-on it is a "which came first: the chicken or the egg?" scenario.
If they can at least figure out a generic parts breakdown they could go with something like GHQ but with a polyurethane plastic (resin) instead of pewter.
Production time would be incredibly slow 15-30 minutes, hence why injection molding or pewter is so good: seconds to a couple minutes to demold.
That is why resin casting usually you want a bunch of model parts in one mold to be worth your while.
I have used materials like this: https://www.polytek.com/wp-content/uploads/EasyFloSeries_TechnicalBulletin_Polytek.pdf
It may be an option if they do not want to play with metal molds anymore.

It would be nice for PB to get off the pot and figure out where they go from here and escape this farcical "analysis paralysis" stage.
They got wave 1 out so they really have no excuse since they demonstrated they could do something.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So... here's a question.

If Paladium suddenly delivered resin models instead of plastic could they then say done? I think so since other companies have changed casting mediums before delivery.

Well, what if they send out printed cards for Wave 2? Or just point to the free cards online? Can they then say done?

It's not like they have any good will to lose and if it got this off the table...

Resin costs much more then the planned material they are using, in fact they are going the cheapest route now so doubt they are changing material and if they did then they will be in breach of contract since we the backers signed up for a specific material if they said resin or metal I would have not been involved, so no they can dream all they want but they cannot say done till promised product is delivered, or in their case never and they continue the death stall till they are forced to file bankruptcy. which seems to be their plan.

 Genoside07 wrote:
the original models were already designed by Ninja Division and now they need to hire someone to sculpt the remaining models and

Actually all model designs were done back in 2014 or even as early as 2013, Kevin and co. just don't want to pay to have them printed up and they are still in search of that elusive molder who will do it for product or stake in the company.

Just stumbled upon this whole topic and all I can say is...
Really, PB?
Really?

Yes, PB has been around for years, but so has herpes.

I just really can't believe Kevin & Co. tried to take on another project when they can't even keep up with the projects they are already supposed to be working on.

I just hope all of this doesn't affect their partnership with Pinnacle Entertainment (Savage Worlds: Rifts). But I also hope Pinnacle takes this as a warning to maybe start wrapping up any, and all, projects with PB before they find a reason to turn on them.

Asterios wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So... here's a question.

If Paladium suddenly delivered resin models instead of plastic could they then say done? I think so since other companies have changed casting mediums before delivery.

Well, what if they send out printed cards for Wave 2? Or just point to the free cards online? Can they then say done?

It's not like they have any good will to lose and if it got this off the table...

Resin costs much more then the planned material they are using, in fact they are going the cheapest route now so doubt they are changing material and if they did then they will be in breach of contract since we the backers signed up for a specific material if they said resin or metal I would have not been involved, so no they can dream all they want but they cannot say done till promised product is delivered, or in their case never and they continue the death stall till they are forced to file bankruptcy. which seems to be their plan.

 Genoside07 wrote:
the original models were already designed by Ninja Division and now they need to hire someone to sculpt the remaining models and

Actually all model designs were done back in 2014 or even as early as 2013, Kevin and co. just don't want to pay to have them printed up and they are still in search of that elusive molder who will do it for product or stake in the company.

Assuming all the 3D models are good to go that is.........

Well, we've seen that at least one of the metal Con RRT models had its mold done from a 3D print (I think it was the female power armor; ask Nesbit about it ), so they know someone who *could* do it.

Personally, I wouldn't mind these figures in plastic or bones. I'm skeptical about PB and resin results, but metal would be right out. I've literally taken an oath I will not work with metal minis any more.

But we all know PB has long passed the point of Wave 2 being made of anthing more tha ice sculptures left out in the blazing sun.

 warboss wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:

Resin is especially a difficult thing, due to it's inherent potential for health risks. This probably wouldn't apply to people who bought resin components, but would to those that didn't, specifically because of the health risks.

Sorry but this is a pet peeve of mine. It's resin, not liquid cast death. If you have chemical sensitivities, you're likely less affected by contact with most resin than with the cya glue used to assemble models. If you're sanding it, it's generallly only an issue with prolonged aggressive sanding of large models (not applicable here)... And simple abrasive particulate precautions like ventilation and a 50 cent mask solve that. Hobby knives likely cause more injuries every year than all of forgeworld's resin ever used will. While I agree that a change in materials would be a significant breach of the kickstarter contract given the emphasis palladium themselves put on the material, it's not a public health hazard if they did so.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment (resin doesn't bother me that much, other than the brittle nature of it), I should have probably tacked on a couple of "alleged"s in there. I do know some people claim to have a sensitivity to the material, but whether that's a physical sensitivity or a psychological isn't really all that important. Much like some GMO's or the like, some people have a specific aversion to it on philosophical grounds. For PB to go "Tough noogies, you'll take these objectionable items, we're done here!", wouldn't go over well. Especially as it wasn't what was promised.

And your point regarding precautions is good advice. But given PB's competency, do you trust them to properly inform backers about the appropriate safety precautions that should be taken? Sure, dedicated hobbyists know at least a little about dealing with resin. But as we've seen during the campaign, not all backers are hobbyists. And not all backers read the commentary. If even one backer gets a complication as a result, because of PB negligence, especially if someone raised that fear and were denied a refund, that's one too many. I didn't mean to overstate the risk, but it is one that some people do hold to.

I definitely don't think the risk of issue from resin comes close to the approximately 30 backers that statistically have died based on actuarial tables (approx one every 35 days) since the campaign was late. Obviously, the longer this campaign drags out, the more backers PB doesn't have to deal with. Eventually, there'll be noone to complain.

Asterios wrote:


Resin costs much more then the planned material they are using, in fact they are going the cheapest route now so doubt they are changing material and if they did then they will be in breach of contract since we the backers signed up for a specific material if they said resin or metal I would have not been involved, so no they can dream all they want but they cannot say done till promised product is delivered, or in their case never and they continue the death stall till they are forced to file bankruptcy. which seems to be their plan..

Resin material costs are indeed higher than the cost of Polystyrene pellets. However, moulds are cheaper by a long way. This is why I've said from the start that for low numbers of runs such as the promised KS & con 'exclusives', resin was the obvious choice of material. Lets face it, tool steel moulds cost a lot of money and are generally used for millions of shots, rubber moulds - depending on the complexity, flexibility, and durability required [and don't forget, you can only choose 2!] can last for hundreds of shots or more. The problem I have always seen was one of scale. IF PB always wanted to keep their word about certain models being exclusive, it just didn't make any sense for them to make tool steel moulds - the cost of the mould outweighs the saving in material costs. Polystyrene also has conversion costs associated with it. You have to heat the material up to get it to flow, then cool it down again to 'freeze' the plastic in the desired shape. There are many RTV resins on the market that don't have to go through that process. Small runs, even 5K+, can be cheaper than plastic, if you have people who know what they are doing [which I don't believe PB does] and you plan properly for the demand and production requirements [which I don't believe PB CAN].

I just hope that they are doing this correctly. Deciding to change the material BEFORE you cut the moulds is generally a good thing, changing material AFTER is a serious mistake as you have just had moulds made that you can no longer use, and have wasted significant money. Polystyrene has a liner coefficient of thermal expansion of 70, unfilled resin is between 60 and 80, but we are talking about filled resin, so would be lower. This means that if you tried to put the sort of resin I would expect PB to be using IF they went to resin, it would shrink less on cooling than a PS component. This could mean simply a larger model comes out than was expected, or it could break or stick in the mould.

In plastic, the pieces are already fragile enough. In resin they would snap at the slightest touch.

Bones is the cheapest junk material and it shows.

I will gladly use metal.

@Morgan: No worries and thanks. It's just a pet peeve of mine as I said and I see it alot here on dakka (every few months or so). Yes, there are risks to your health associated with resin but with the vast majority of folks in the vast majority of situations the lifetime risk approaches zero even *without* simple common sense precautions. It's like gasoline... it's toxic and even a carcinogen... but that doesn't mean if you spill a few drops on your hand every month while filling up the lawn mower that you strip naked and start screaming at your neighbors to call for a mobile EPA decon unit while you quickly write out your last will and testament before the cancer disseminates. You simply try not to spill it and wash your hands if you do. The same sensible care and precaution applies with resin.

Perhaps what would be the best compromise is what they're using for the new Battletech unseen models - I think it's a firm plastic but for the most part the models are one piece. I just really think PB's bajillion piece models at this scale is ridiculous.

 Stormonu wrote:
Perhaps what would be the best compromise is what they're using for the new Battletech unseen models - I think it's a firm plastic but for the most part the models are one piece. I just really think PB's bajillion piece models at this scale is ridiculous.

CBT plastics are indeed hard plastic and mostly one piece. Kevin has went on and on about reducing part counts, but if he had spent as much time on actually reducing the part count as oppose to talking about it, we'd be done by now.

 Lynx7725 wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Perhaps what would be the best compromise is what they're using for the new Battletech unseen models - I think it's a firm plastic but for the most part the models are one piece. I just really think PB's bajillion piece models at this scale is ridiculous.

CBT plastics are indeed hard plastic and mostly one piece. Kevin has went on and on about reducing part counts, but if he had spent as much time on actually reducing the part count as oppose to talking about it, we'd be done by now.

Well... I suppose all but one of the remaining wave two models (iirc the SDF) are currently at a combined zero parts count so massive success much fun! from Palladium's point of view. Remember, they don't owe us since most of us (minus I pledged and only got some decals dakkite) got more than our pledge's retail value already according to one attorney general response by Palladium..

One part plastics are not what I signed up for. Perhaps something is better than nothing, but imagine one part VF battloids all in the lifted leg pose...

Yeah, I can imagine a unit of 4 super valks in the same soldier pose, but I can also imagine you converting them. It's a bit hard to imagine getting them done by yourself though. As you said, would be better than nothing. :(

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
If Paladium suddenly delivered resin models instead of plastic could they then say done? I think so since other companies have changed casting mediums before delivery.

Yes. I'd accept a resin MAC-II in scale with the Wave 1 stuff.

 Conrad Turner wrote:

Asterios wrote:


Resin costs much more then the planned material they are using, in fact they are going the cheapest route now so doubt they are changing material and if they did then they will be in breach of contract since we the backers signed up for a specific material if they said resin or metal I would have not been involved, so no they can dream all they want but they cannot say done till promised product is delivered, or in their case never and they continue the death stall till they are forced to file bankruptcy. which seems to be their plan..

Resin material costs are indeed higher than the cost of Polystyrene pellets. However, moulds are cheaper by a long way. This is why I've said from the start that for low numbers of runs such as the promised KS & con 'exclusives', resin was the obvious choice of material. Lets face it, tool steel moulds cost a lot of money and are generally used for millions of shots, rubber moulds - depending on the complexity, flexibility, and durability required [and don't forget, you can only choose 2!] can last for hundreds of shots or more. The problem I have always seen was one of scale. IF PB always wanted to keep their word about certain models being exclusive, it just didn't make any sense for them to make tool steel moulds - the cost of the mould outweighs the saving in material costs. Polystyrene also has conversion costs associated with it. You have to heat the material up to get it to flow, then cool it down again to 'freeze' the plastic in the desired shape. There are many RTV resins on the market that don't have to go through that process. Small runs, even 5K+, can be cheaper than plastic, if you have people who know what they are doing [which I don't believe PB does] and you plan properly for the demand and production requirements [which I don't believe PB CAN].

I just hope that they are doing this correctly. Deciding to change the material BEFORE you cut the moulds is generally a good thing, changing material AFTER is a serious mistake as you have just had moulds made that you can no longer use, and have wasted significant money. Polystyrene has a liner coefficient of thermal expansion of 70, unfilled resin is between 60 and 80, but we are talking about filled resin, so would be lower. This means that if you tried to put the sort of resin I would expect PB to be using IF they went to resin, it would shrink less on cooling than a PS component. This could mean simply a larger model comes out than was expected, or it could break or stick in the mould.

problem is PB will not make anything they will not make money on, especially if they have to shell out money to do it, so resin is not an option, furthermore you get more pressings with an ABS mold overall then you would with a resin mold. so the cost is lost on having to make more resin molds, but this is pointless PB has realized they will not make money on RRT so they are figuring why throw good money after bad money so will not be doing wave 2, instead they will drag it out till they are not responsible to supply by law. (when the statue of limitations runs out here real soon)

If not literally one piece, then 2 or 3 or 5 pieces, something easier to work with for us non-modelers, but with enough variety available to keep the more skilled hobbyists happy (or with a little modification, we already see that with the existing models).

There are shades of gray between "1 piece" and "24+ pieces", as we've noted hundreds of times.

Standard Bones isn't a great material, agreed. I backed for a few add ons in the Bones 2 campaign, and while I'm happy with what I got for the price I paid, I wouldn't call them necessarily high quality stuff (not that I'm an expert judge either). But with Bones 3 they introduced a Harder/rigid Bones (lawl) formulation that I'm hoping works out well for the weapons packs I bought to kit out some of my Shadows of Brimstone figures.

Not that I'm saying it's something they should go with, just noting that Reaper is branching out to different materials aside from the usual rubbery stuff.

 warboss wrote:
@Morgan: No worries and thanks. It's just a pet peeve of mine as I said and I see it alot here on dakka (every few months or so). Yes, there are risks to your health associated with resin but with the vast majority of folks in the vast majority of situations the lifetime risk approaches zero even *without* simple common sense precautions. It's like gasoline... it's toxic and even a carcinogen... but that doesn't mean if you spill a few drops on your hand every month while filling up the lawn mower that you strip naked and start screaming at your neighbors to call for a mobile EPA decon unit while you quickly write out your last will and testament before the cancer disseminates. You simply try not to spill it and wash your hands if you do. The same sensible care and precaution applies with resin.

I work in the plastic packaging industry and know about the same... Over the years I tried to warn people buying from Chinese recasters that the material they were using COULD be toxic...
Everyone acted like I was trying to ruin a good thing.. All I was saying if they are willing to break copyright what makes you sure they won't use cheaper materials that could be hazardous..

But when I originally backed RRT I was very hopeful that Ninja Division was going to do all the heavy lifting.. and I wanted to have battles with Hover Tanks, Robotech masters and invid..
But Palladium Games can't even get out items like the Rick and Roy Veritech that was to be in the original main box set.. Three years later

In KevCo's defense, they did get out the long-delayed Northern Gun book(s) for RIFTS shortly after the Robotech Kickstarter funds were collected...

Now it would be improper to accuse them of illegal conversion (which would also be an illegal breach of contract), but it's hard to imagine any other explanation that provides a reasonable doubt.

Aside from gross incompetence. Which isn't really that much better.

"Okay, we have all this money now, what do we do with it?"

"Put $100k into printing NG1, we'll make that back and then some."

*fast forward a few months*

"So how much did we make over our investment on NG-1?"

"We lost $75k. We're using crates of spare copies to make blanket forts in the warehouse."

"Feth. Okay, look, put an extra half mil on core boxes and other wave one stuff, we'll turn that into another million easily, especially stuffing grab bags with 'em and off all the sweet full MSRP sales we'll be doing."

*fast forward a few month*

"So, how close are we to that million in the bank again?"

"We're not. Tank is running dry. The warehouse has a truly epic rampart/battlements thing going on. The fan friends who swing by are forming teams and launching daring raids in live action Capture The Flag matches."

"FETH!"

Actually, I think that would end with:

"Awesome! That gives me an idea for a Rifts book. I'll need some personal time to whack this out - I mean, belt it out."

"Okay, which one of us do you want to come in afterwards to tell you how great it is?"

"Hmm....let me get back to you on that."

"Okay, which one of us do you want to come in afterwards to tell you how great it is?"

"Hmm....let me get back to you on that."

Actually more like...


"Okay, which one of us do you want to come in afterwards to tell you how great it is?"

"Just read this weeks update to find out which of you acknowledged my brilliance"

"Great idea Kevin"