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Relaunch isn't going to work without Wave 2.
People might pick up interest again if they saw the remainder of what is due come out.

You are right that the game's reputation isn't bad, outside of its association with PB.

 n815e wrote:
Relaunch isn't going to work without Wave 2.
People might pick up interest again if they saw the remainder of what is due come out.

You are right that the game's reputation isn't bad, outside of its association with PB.

My thoughts are.

RE-launch is not what they should be calling it. I can't remember anything much of an impression they had already 'launched' a game. The KS came to an end. Time went by. Technology improved, PB's communications about what was actually happening went down the drain. What has happened so far reminds me of an early rocket test - got inches off the ground then exploded spectacularly. That mess cannot be salvaged and 're-launched', you end up throwing scrap in the air and watching it land on your own head. You have to build another one, changing things you have found to be wrong, and launch the second version.

I still believe you had a few too many words in your first sentence. In my mind, you should have said "Relaunch [2nd launch] isn't going to work." as I doubt it will work with or without Wave 2.

As I have never played, I cannot comment on the game's reputation, but I do believe that there is more than it's association [PB's new slogan? "Putting the Ass in ASS-ociation"?] with PB that is holding the game's reputation back. I would go so far as to say that it's something like 50% won't buy it because ... PB, 25% because it's so late and they don't have the models for fielding what they want unless they know about other ways to get them, and 25% because the models there are, are too fiddly to build for a lot of people, so that takes us back to other means of procurement again

The game is okay but it does have some serious flaws that need to be addressed. Basing it off the RPG stats was the worst decision ever.

From a business perspective, I think the whole 'relaunch' is simply them grasping at the nearest thing to hide behind. It was a flop and continues to be little more than a footnote in gaming terms, at least from everything I've seen.

Beyond being a resource for some 'unseen' mechs (in or out of general Battletech scale), and with Kevin's well known concerns regarding IP and litigation (both their own penchant for throwing around C&D's, and fears of treading onto thin ice), I think that it's less about seriously thinking that the game will launch or relaunch or super duper relaunch, but "this is another piece of plausible deniability that keeps the wolves at bay".

I think that's just part of the game for them; claim a relaunch is coming, sputter something vague about the parts count, proclaim that wave 2 is totes happening in 20__, for realz.

Whether or not it did anything but become a source of scorn and derision (and the campaign unarguably (to me) had a much larger impact on the gaming community than the actual game itself ever will) is tangential to what the statements represent. Taking them at face value for anything but laughs is to assume good faith on their behalf. I think we can pretty safely ignore them doing or saying anything in good faith.

Did it launch? Did it relaunch? Will it relaunch? These are the wrong questions. Why do they keep talking about it? Well, that has a fairly obvious answer to me, as I've stated above.

I sometimes really do wonder how much of an audience at this time Palladium Books has.
You know, for things like being "a laughing stock" to have relevance.
There is the 5000+ backers with probably at least 2/3rds uninvolved or having forgotten they made this pledge.
Some of the SW:R kickstarter backers could be an overlap but if I was an RPG player that would be my opportunity to move-on and not look back.
Sometimes I think we few, we happy few, we band of brothers are all the audience they have and the various hangers on of long time fan friends.

Well, I guess the main question is how long they can go and keep what few lights they have on.

...and the beneficent Carmen was going to do that for you people. But nooooooooo

Merijeek wrote:
...and the beneficent Carmen was going to do that for you people. But nooooooooo

A scary example of not being in your happy place.
Angry backers to one side, freaky IP holder on the other, stuck in the middle.
Beg, threaten, bribe, coerce... dealing with Palladium only brings out the best in people speaking for myself as well.
Well, I should soon have a "Monster" together, so I can add one more checkmark to me caring less what PB does.

 Swabby wrote:
The game is okay but it does have some serious flaws that need to be addressed. Basing it off the RPG stats was the worst decision ever.

That was a business/legal limitation forced on them to have the game "based" on the RPG and avoid other licensing problems, especially with the minis.

And, apart from "Kevin said so" why do you believe that and how can you know that?

Is there some other Robotech tabletop game license holder that would go and object to HG?

No, but HG might not have authorized a product not tied into the RPG.

At least not without a major renegotiation.

Merijeek wrote:
And, apart from "Kevin said so" why do you believe that and how can you know that?

Is there some other Robotech tabletop game license holder that would go and object to HG?

Because that does jive with what we do know of the settlement of the Macross IP case.

HG keeps whatever it had at the point, but cannot issue any more new licenses; PB has (only) the Robotech RPG licenses, and HG preferred ND to work with its existing license holder. So they had to bash around the problem until a workable solution pops. Given that PB would be unlikely to rework the RPG stats because that would require a full range rewrite, possibly extending into the core system itself, this is why we have the working Frankenstein that we do.

There is no, and will not be any, non-Japanese Robotech Tabletop Game license holder because HG is legally barred from issuing any, as far as I am aware. At least involving the First Generation (which is the big nostalgia draw). This also explains why HG keep wanting to push Robotech beyond the Sentinels era -- they need to create a separate IP that they can exploit fully.

 Lynx7725 wrote:

Merijeek wrote:
And, apart from "Kevin said so" why do you believe that and how can you know that?

Is there some other Robotech tabletop game license holder that would go and object to HG?

Because that does jive with what we do know of the settlement of the Macross IP case.

HG keeps whatever it had at the point, but cannot issue any more new licenses; PB has (only) the Robotech RPG licenses, and HG preferred ND to work with its existing license holder. So they had to bash around the problem until a workable solution pops. Given that PB would be unlikely to rework the RPG stats because that would require a full range rewrite, possibly extending into the core system itself, this is why we have the working Frankenstein that we do.

There is no, and will not be any, non-Japanese Robotech Tabletop Game license holder because HG is legally barred from issuing any, as far as I am aware. At least involving the First Generation (which is the big nostalgia draw). This also explains why HG keep wanting to push Robotech beyond the Sentinels era -- they need to create a separate IP that they can exploit fully.

Correct.

Also any time we wanted to deviate from the RPG there was a very strong and emphatic NO involved. Thankfully my shapeways order arrived so the only thing I have left that I'm lacking are a few Battloids and the Inorganics.

That may be true, but are you certain that it is licensing, or did they just tell you no?

If I had a bunch of non employees telling me to change things I would be telling them no as well.

 Swabby wrote:
That may be true, but are you certain that it is licensing, or did they just tell you no?

If I had a bunch of non employees telling me to change things I would be telling them no as well.

1. The changes were not huge
2. There were not many changes asked for
3. Some changes were just point cost related
4. A lot of people involved and not a part of PB were also telling me the same thing.
5. The rewrite of the ND rules was also done to bring things closer to the RPG
6. The entire we can't do a Monster originally was based on making a figure that would be over X inches tall and hence could be considered a model

Lots of other things. It was not just one or two comments a couple times. I had participated on a large number of conference calls with PB and conversations with others.

So, right or wrong, that was the impression that the entire team had or was led to, however you wish to see it yourselves.

At this point I'm focused on NW:S

 Swabby wrote:
That may be true, but are you certain that it is licensing, or did they just tell you no?

If I had a bunch of non employees telling me to change things I would be telling them no as well.

There's no reason to suspect PB isn't just god awfully lazy either. It's not an OR situation, it's an AND situation. PB was way out of their depths tinkering with a miniature game, even one disguised as a RPG supplement. They are also not bothered to learn about the industry. Won't have worked out really.

The crux of this is that RRT didn't have much of a legal chance to be a miniature board game in the West thanks to the ruling, as far as I know, and tabletop gaming is not a big thing in Japan. ND rolled the dice asking HG and got PB, and PB wasn't interested in bending the rules ("RPG Supplement" *wink* *wink* *nod* *nod*) in the sense that we would have liked. We got what we got because of that.

I personally do not put much merit in anything we cannot get hard data on. Speculating on why is just that, speculation.

The facts we have are scant and we will probably never know the full story due to legalities.

 Swabby wrote:
I personally do not put much merit in anything we cannot get hard data on. Speculating on why is just that, speculation.
The facts we have are scant and we will probably never know the full story due to legalities.

I found it awfully funny how PB would point out much of what we had to say was speculation and not facts.
Easy to say when they are the ones sitting on what actually has happened and are unwilling to tell: they deserve all the speculation we can throw at them until they get in the mood to clear the air.
Their plans on how to finish wav2 OR refund our money OR delay us forever OR close their doors forever are the answers I am looking for, what happened in the past is not having much relevance.
I am rather surprised with myself how much their amazing future plans for releases for RRT like a scenario book mean almost nothing to me.
I may have been pretty excited two or three years back.

BTW the snark is aimed at PB not you, I am glad you can maintain your interest to the level you do.

Talizvar,

Couldn't agree more. Robotech was something I really enjoyed. But PB have killed all that.

IF RRT was to have been the golden goose they wanted, they should have removed their hands from around it's neck. I just find their current efforts to pretend it's not dead by keeping their hands on it's neck and wiggling it's lifeless head as they drag it's feet through the dirt to be depressing.
Whether they pony up on Wave 2 [and just about everything they owe me], continue to put the telescope to their blind eye (that they are masters at turning when anyone asks a pertinent, polite, question on when they are going to deliver) and basically say "We see no ships.", or whether they stop trading for whatever reason, it's all the same to me.

I no longer have any desire to have the character models, I have already bought a bigger and better SDF-1, and the YF models were more to have a model of the model that the child was seen playing with, rather than any love for the actual craft.

It's like they say, don't bet what you can't afford to lose. I didn't, and that's why I'm walking away today.

Removing my subscription to this thread, we are precisely 0% further on than we were in the beginning. No information as PB keeps up with the "We're really working on it folks.", no sign of change, KS refusing to do anything about it as long as PB keep telling them "We're really working on it, this is super hard for a RPG company you know!" whilst all the time PB are annoyed about the speculation going about.

That's worse than not being able to get online, calling the supplier and telling them, only to be told that they can't deal with that sort of problem over the phone - you have to use the website! [how can I, I can't get online!]

Anyway, I feel like I have made some friends in this thread, and the previous one, but it's time for me to bow out. I no longer give a rodent's rectum what happens to PB from here on out, whatever they do, they'll do it without me. Enough of their customers doo the same, the rest have no chance of getting what we wanted in the beginning, but I don't think any of us stand a snowball's of reaching that state anyway.

@Conrad - I'm sorry to see you go. I know those fethers at PB are lying through their teeth, and they deserve to be gakked upon at every opportunity. But I do get how it can't be healthy to hold onto this. Take care.

Sorry to see you go. I have no love for PB at all at this point but if you still love Robotech know that an alternative still exists that will be supported.

 Mike1975 wrote:
Sorry to see you go. I have no love for PB at all at this point but if you still love Robotech know that an alternative still exists that will be supported.

Yes it is called Alphastrike! You are unrelenting!

@Conrad: Good luck, I fully understand the reason for cutting loose an irritant in your life, much like Mike will do with me if I keep poking him...

 Talizvar wrote:

 Mike1975 wrote:
Sorry to see you go. I have no love for PB at all at this point but if you still love Robotech know that an alternative still exists that will be supported.

Yes it is called Alphastrike! You are unrelenting!

@Conrad: Good luck, I fully understand the reason for cutting loose an irritant in your life, much like Mike will do with me if I keep poking him...

LOL, yeah, played BT for many years and also have the rules for Alpha Strike and the expansion for it and it just does not have the anime feel that I prefer. The rules are good, and I have just about all the stat cards for it, I just don't like the feel.

Latest PBWU is up.

And... we're back to getting bugger all again.

UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and other books

Nothing new to report this week. Everything continues to move forward with Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and other products. When we have details, we will share them.

Contradictory bugger all, even. Things are moving forward, but nothing to report. What. Ever. At least they're not pretending.

In the GenCon news, the title specifically mentions RRT Tourneys, but then says nothing about them.

gRifts gets significantly more text, but it's more about how a friend of his loves what they've seen, and is full of effusive praise, than anything of note too. There's a link to the Rogue Heroes FB page, one that hasn't been updated in almost three weeks. Similarly, the gRifts section of the Palladium Forums hasn't had a single post in over two weeks. And if Wiley/Roadrunner hadn't posted his version of a PBWU report, neither would the RRT section. Things are hopping when it comes to Palladium miniatures, that's for sure!

On the book front, they're still promising three books by June (and two more by Summer), but Dark Designs, the book that jumped to the head of the queue so they could sell the preview copies, has shifted from June/July to Summer.

His Closing Thoughts has a line that is one of total contradiction.
"I think we are all in production frenzy as we work on numerous projects. Our focus is product. New books, Rifts®, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and Carmen’s Rifts® Board Game. We have so much good stuff in the pipeline. Now it is all about getting it into your hands".
You're trying to complete at least 6 books, assist on gRifts, "work;" on RRT W2+Relaunch, and have GenCon in just over 4 months. If there's one thing you don't have, Mr Carnival Barker, it's focus.

Morgan Vening wrote:
His Closing Thoughts has a line that is one of total contradiction.
"I think we are all in production frenzy as we work on numerous projects. Our focus is product. New books, Rifts®, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and Carmen’s Rifts® Board Game. We have so much good stuff in the pipeline. Now it is all about getting it into your hands".
You're trying to complete at least 6 books, assist on gRifts, "work;" on RRT W2+Relaunch, and have GenCon in just over 4 months. If there's one thing you don't have, Mr Carnival Barker, it's focus.

So... are they working on it and it's a PB's game, or is it Carmen's and they aren't? Can't seem to get the story straight between updates.

 Mike1975 wrote:
LOL, yeah, played BT for many years and also have the rules for Alpha Strike and the expansion for it and it just does not have the anime feel that I prefer. The rules are good, and I have just about all the stat cards for it, I just don't like the feel.

Understood, the hyper missile ballet John Woo action with robots is a whole lot to like and prefer.
I have some appreciation for the slow lumbering land battleships that is Battletech.
It is old school like shambling zombies (rather than sprinting), vampires that catch fire in the daylight (rather than sparkle) and anime that has love triangles (oh yeah, that has not changed).
Heavy gear was a nice try for trying to get speed into the stomping Mech end of things but there is something really entertaining about a robot that can sprint with jet/rocket assisted super leaps (scary springs to mind, much like the sprinting zombies).
Right about now I need to tell kids to get off my lawn.

 Albertorius wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
His Closing Thoughts has a line that is one of total contradiction.
"I think we are all in production frenzy as we work on numerous projects. Our focus is product. New books, Rifts®, Robotech® RPG Tactics™ and Carmen’s Rifts® Board Game. We have so much good stuff in the pipeline. Now it is all about getting it into your hands".
You're trying to complete at least 6 books, assist on gRifts, "work;" on RRT W2+Relaunch, and have GenCon in just over 4 months. If there's one thing you don't have, Mr Carnival Barker, it's focus.

So... are they working on it and it's a PB's game, or is it Carmen's and they aren't? Can't seem to get the story straight between updates.

Actually, they do tend to mostly be on the same page publicly. It's nearly all "approval and feedback". Didn't explain what they did at Adepticon though. But who knows.

Oh, and for those interested in numbers/dates, in less than two weeks, (Thursday after next), it'll be 4 years since RRT funded. Having the gRifts Kickstarter launch on, or about, the anniversary, especially with nothing to report on RRT, is going to be "interesting".

And when looking for that date, I noticed that someone at PB has logged in to the Kickstarter account today. Not expecting an Update (given the PBWU), so it's either for other purposes, or they're looking at feedback.

In other dates, we're now well past the initial timeframe of completion based on W1, for W2 to happen this year (PPP's in early January, delivery in early October). But did anyone here REALLY think 2017 was ever going to happen? Am curious what their talking points will be at GenCon when W2 still doesn't have a quarter/half year release date. Watching them kick the can down the road is weirdly intriguing.

Just remember guys, there is absolutely no connection between Palladium Books and Rogue Heros llc. None, zero.

 Swabby wrote:
Just remember guys, there is absolutely no connection between Palladium Books and Rogue Heros llc. None, zero.

Wink;Wink;Nod;Nod

But honestly, the images for the rifts game is rather lacking a professional look being a company that is being back by a veteran of making games.

When Cool Mini or Not was first breaking into making games with zombicide and others.. they put their best foot forward..

The Rifts game I get a feel of "good enough" I have no plans to back it.. may give it a look if it ever makes it to retail... but that is a rather large if...

I use to like Rifts. Even sent them a submission for character ideas. They did get used, in part, but never wanted recognition for them. Now, I just hope the company burns.

I believe that this is exactly what Kevin is after, as regards RTT, he wants to project his own apathy about the project onto us all and hopes we will simply give up and go away, leaving him (and his acolytes) to play in their little fantasy rpg arena.

That is why I am so reluctant to throw the towel in, here on the KS forums and even ploughing a lone furrow over on their own Palladium boards.

We know at least one staffer (Jeffar) calls in here now and again and good old NMI crops up to sing his bosses praises . So I cannot believe PB are ignorant of the bad feeling out here, but like the three mokeys they pretend to be blind, deaf and dumb, while managing the atatomical feat of keeping theur collective thumbs up their backsides.

More than ever, I am looking forward to the launch of gRifts - yes the first mapboards look "unfinished and the gameplay looks plagarised (Imperial Assualt anyone) - if only to see if it does turn nasty, If ir does I know Kevin will spend more verbiage going after us. his customers than he has spent telling us what is (not) happenning ove rthe last three years