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 John Prins wrote:

Morgan Vening wrote:
Actually, I know at least one backer did (Azazelx?). The reason why more people weren't able to, wasn't because the risks were there, it was because of the timeframes involved. Most credit cards have a limit that is easily surpassed by Kickstarter timelines. I remember when it all went pear shaped for RRT, and most cards were found to have a 90 or 180 day policy. So it's not about risk, as much as it's about the bureaucracy of the banking industry.

That's actually very interesting. It almost might be worth getting a credit card with long-term policies just for Kickstarter backing. When Ninja Division "pulled out" of the RTT, that would have been the ideal time to bail, though we didn't really know how badly Palladium would bungle it.

Actually, I almost wonder if a CC company could make a viable model of "insuring" your crowdfunding pledges so long as a balance equal to the pledge amount is kept on the card and the project is past their estimated delivery date and evidence of non-delivery is provided. A mildly higher interest rate combined with the long windows of most crowdfunding campaigns have would likely rack up a decent amount of income, and then if they had some mechanism with KS to transfer ownership of the pledge/standing that would give the CC larger and larger dollar amounts to go after a bad creator if it was warranted. Few backers would go to the mat for a few hundred dollars, but a CC company could almost write off legal fees as advertising for the card and its "protections" while KS acquires a sort-of enforcement arm without having to do anything (their preferred model); I imagine a fair few RTT would love such a card to get their outstanding funds back AND watch PB twist in court.

I doubt it'd catch on, but it does make you wonder.

EDIT: Look Ma! I'm the top of page 300! And people said I'd never accomplish anything...

Credit Card companies do clawbacks all the time - they have the merchants by the nuts, and it's really a question of what poison you want to drink.

WOW!! I have been BANNED FROM PB FACEBOOK @Palladium Books. I believe you'll find there is still plenty of criticism here that wasn't removed. I banned a handful of people who said nasty things, and/or made it clear they were only here to say nasty things about us. Not exactly unreasonable for a company to want such things off their Facebook page. If we were attempting to silence all criticism, there would be a lot fewer comments on here.

We are certainly open to constructive criticism, and even just complaints. Unfounded accusations, insults, and blatant attacks are not welcome, and will be removed. -Wayne
2 · May 8 at 12:57pm


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well I think they want to clear everything for the Rifts GB KS but I don't think it work. Man I' m very tame compare to others RTT backers. Oh well

Is there anything they don't do badly?

And why is Wayne doing that? Was Ruiz busy Ruizing?

Now that the totally-not-PB project has face planted, are they going to get back to RRT two months early?

Er NMI does not have the banhammer over on Facebook, so it was all down to WAyne, purging the deplorables who do not buy into PB's everything is wobderful eyhos.

I was surprised to be banned myself, but then again their page their rules and if you just want to stick yur fingers in your ears , fair enough.

Wonder what happens next, especially in refards to RTT, the failure of gRifts BG seems to leave them with virtually no ecuses left for not doing something about RTT , if they were serious.

However, I would be surprised if we even get an update - unless it is to tell us all off for being so negatice. Surely even Kevinmust realise that he has to do something concrete and accountable for RTT, otherwise he is poisoning the well for any other PB projects - by them or other and the film talk is as always just Kev;s vapourware speak.

If ever there was a wake up call the gFifts fiasco was it, but it will be a shock if Kevin does anything

Yes, I just don't understand why Ruiz doesn't have it. I mean, the FoTM run exactly the way they'd like Facebook to.

So, seems odd that they don't just let him be a fascist over there too.

DEZOAT wrote:
WOW!! I have been BANNED FROM PB FACEBOOK @Palladium Books.

Oh noes! How terrible. [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

It isn't a wake up call to them. I am sure, in their minds, RRT backers are just so mean they will ruin all that is good and it has nothing to do with their behavior.

If failing sales aren't a wake up call, if not being able to keep the lights on isn't a wake up call....

I mean, in all seriousness, they told us that they went to a gaming convention and, despite 30 years in the biz, nobody knew who they were. There's your wake up call right there, but not to them.

Palladium's reputation is now 99% failed kickstarter and 1% outdated game that is Rifts. Pretty much the definition of Palladium is an outdated failure and the precious Rifts IP is now in trans of Savage Worlds so no one needs Unca Kevster anymore. Palladium couldn't even raise $100k in faithful money so that's a clear indication no one trusts them anymore. It wasn't Robotech backers running people off, it was Carmen taking EVERYTHING from Kevin's kickstarter advice. Make sure you can sell at conventions first! Make sure you can go to retailers first! Make sure you say the backers have nothing to say about anything once you have the sweet sweet monies.
Basically it proved Kavvin learned nothing. We learned that giving Palladium 1.44 million dollars makes us insufferable people that Kevin wishes would basically die. Appy$1.44 million isn't enough to bring Palladium's dream to life.

 TwoGunBob wrote:
Palladium's reputation is now 99% failed kickstarter and 1% outdated game that is Rifts. Pretty much the definition of Palladium is an outdated failure and the precious Rifts IP is now in trans of Savage Worlds so no one needs Unca Kevster anymore. Palladium couldn't even raise $100k in faithful money so that's a clear indication no one trusts them anymore. It wasn't Robotech backers running people off, it was Carmen taking EVERYTHING from Kevin's kickstarter advice. Make sure you can sell at conventions first! Make sure you can go to retailers first! Make sure you say the backers have nothing to say about anything once you have the sweet sweet monies.
Basically it proved Kavvin learned nothing. We learned that giving Palladium 1.44 million dollars makes us insufferable people that Kevin wishes would basically die. Appy$1.44 million isn't enough to bring Palladium's dream to life.

I agree 100% with your post. Now poor Kev is sick right now. Well let see what come of it. Oh by the way its Mother Day so everyone give MOM a Big Hug.

 n815e wrote:


I mean, in all seriousness, they told us that they went to a gaming convention and, despite 30 years in the biz, nobody knew who they were. There's your wake up call right there, but not to them.

Where was this posted?!?

 TwoGunBob wrote:
Palladium's reputation is now 99% failed kickstarter and 1% outdated game that is Rifts. Pretty much the definition of Palladium is an outdated failure and the precious Rifts IP is now in trans of Savage Worlds so no one needs Unca Kevster anymore.

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one to reach this conclusion. Savage Worlds Rifts being popular/well received doesn't necessarily translate into sales of old Rifts stuff. Folks can/will wait for Savage Worlds to do the conversions rather than spend hundreds of dollars on obsolete, bloated rules with poor production values.

DEZOAT wrote:
WOW!! I have been BANNED FROM PB FACEBOOK @Palladium Books. I believe you'll find there is still plenty of criticism here that wasn't removed. I banned a handful of people who said nasty things, and/or made it clear they were only here to say nasty things about us. Not exactly unreasonable for a company to want such things off their Facebook page. If we were attempting to silence all criticism, there would be a lot fewer comments on here.

We are certainly open to constructive criticism, and even just complaints. Unfounded accusations, insults, and blatant attacks are not welcome, and will be removed. -Wayne
2 · May 8 at 12:57pm

They go on banning sprees every so often. I got nabbed a year or two ago (can't even recall when at this point), but never said anything 'nasty'. I pointedly made sure I kept my critique factual, but when you're floundering as hard as they have been for as long as they've been, the saying "the truth hurts" takes on new meaning.

My favourite part of his comment though, is the tacit admission that they get more negative attention than anything.

" If we were attempting to silence all criticism, there would be a lot fewer comments on here."

Yes, Wayne. Yes there would. Why don't you think on that for a bit. Ask yourself why that might be.

 Forar wrote:

DEZOAT wrote:
WOW!! I have been BANNED FROM PB FACEBOOK @Palladium Books. I believe you'll find there is still plenty of criticism here that wasn't removed. I banned a handful of people who said nasty things, and/or made it clear they were only here to say nasty things about us. Not exactly unreasonable for a company to want such things off their Facebook page. If we were attempting to silence all criticism, there would be a lot fewer comments on here.

We are certainly open to constructive criticism, and even just complaints. Unfounded accusations, insults, and blatant attacks are not welcome, and will be removed. -Wayne
2 · May 8 at 12:57pm

They go on banning sprees every so often. I got nabbed a year or two ago (can't even recall when at this point), but never said anything 'nasty'. I pointedly made sure I kept my critique factual, but when you're floundering as hard as they have been for as long as they've been, the saying "the truth hurts" takes on new meaning.

My favourite part of his comment though, is the tacit admission that they get more negative attention than anything.

" If we were attempting to silence all criticism, there would be a lot fewer comments on here."

Yes, Wayne. Yes there would. Why don't you think on that for a bit. Ask yourself why that might be.

You know I think I know why I was banned from PB Facebook. I may fun of Ken Cooke when he went on a rant of the RTT Backer for Uncle Kev. I made fun of a family member that why I was banned. Most of my post was how Rifts was getting all the love then Robotech. The other was I better see 7000 backer and 2 mil after the RBG KS. I don't think I was that mean and like I posted I' m tame.

 Alpharius wrote:

 n815e wrote:


I mean, in all seriousness, they told us that they went to a gaming convention and, despite 30 years in the biz, nobody knew who they were. There's your wake up call right there, but not to them.

Where was this posted?!?

A couple of years ago, I think, in a weekly update. It was after the RRT kickstarter, since I wasn't paying attention to them before then. Kevin asked people to spread the word about the company as a response, instead of investing in advertising, engaging new customers, supporting their "ambassadors", having a positive on line presence, or improving their business practices...

 n815e wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 n815e wrote:


I mean, in all seriousness, they told us that they went to a gaming convention and, despite 30 years in the biz, nobody knew who they were. There's your wake up call right there, but not to them.

Where was this posted?!?

A couple of years ago, I think, in a weekly update. It was after the RRT kickstarter, since I wasn't paying attention to them before then. Kevin asked people to spread the word about the company as a response, instead of investing in advertising, engaging new customers, supporting their "ambassadors", having a positive on line presence, or improving their business practices...

problem is word is being spread about PB, problem is none of it is good.

Kevvy is sick? Can I get bleeding ulcer for $500, Alex?

Well, the GenCon Event List is live, and we can see what's available for competitive play. I told Forar to post it up (couldn't do it from work), but he's being a temperamental lazy zergling, and didn't want to.

A search for Robotech lists 16 events.

Of those, it breaks down as follows.
7 RPG events (so, not what we're talking about here)
7 non-tourney, no/little experience, material provided, essentially extended demo events (important, but again, not the topic of discussion)
2 events listed as a tournament.

Both events seem to be separate, but otherwise identical, just being run on different days (Friday 1pm, Saturday 1pm).

Here's the direct links, but the general info is as follows.

Description - Gen Con's 1st tournament! Bring your assembled 200 point force to the table to throw down against UEDF & Zentraedi from all across the galaxy! Prizes for the top 3 players & best paint!
Players - 4 to 12.
Duration - 5hrs.

So, firstly glad they're keeping the numbers manageable. Sure, it's less than I'd want at the first official tournament in over two years (May 2015 Open House was the last I saw reported), it's definitely not something you'ld want to overestimate too heavily on. A small tourney is better for perspective than a big tourney that only gets a handful of players. And as neither prior event (Adepticon 2015 or the 2015 POH) was more than this (I believe 9 and 11 respectively?), I think this is a reasonable number that they can hope to build on.

Second, I'm kind of disappointed that the "standard" game size (300pts) is being undercut. Again, I can understand it, as the Zentradi options are incredibly limited for army build, due to the absence of Wave 2, but it does mean that getting more than 2 formations a side really pushes things. Making the whole alternative action thing more IGOUGO. But again, I can understant it, for reasons.

Third, and this is where clarity needs to exist. Each tourney is listed as 5 hours long. To get a singular winner (assuming ties are impossible) if the event has full participation, will require 4 rounds. Meaning everything from orientation to deployments to packing up all have to be subsumed into the 1hr 15m timeframe. I haven't played yet, so an honest question, will that be sufficient? According to the POH, they had 250pts in originally 2hrs, but reduced it to 1 1/2 before the event, though I don't recall hearing in a post-review if that was sufficient. Of course, if my next interpretation is wrong, there'll be plenty of time.

Some other points needing clarification, is whether the two events are fully independent or not. My interpretation is that they are, and each is fully independent. HOWEVER, both list in the description as being "GenCon's 1st tournament". Now, it doesn't matter which interpretation is true, as long as it's clear. People showing up expecting a two day tournament might be miffed if it's two single day ones. And people expecting it to be a one day tourney might get miffed that only playing that one day will probably remove any chance of prizes. I'm EXPECTING it to be two separate tournaments, but clarification would be good, even if the time constraint I mentioned above then becomes an issue.

Final point is another of clarification, and speaks to the issue in my second point, above. And that is the matter of proxies. Which is almost assuredly going to annoy someone. Palladium have released several items as character model Exclusives* (MPA, FPA, SValk) that could theoretically be purchased in numbers to make relevant squads. But as the pricing is significant, you get into the old CCG argument of Mr Suitcase. Which is the concept that a player with more money or access than another player has a significant advantage. So if you allow proxies, you annoy the people who aren't able to afford $66+ per squad, or in the case of FPA, are no longer available. But if you don't, you annoy the people who did. There's also the question of where you draw the line if you do. Can you provide alternate appropriately sized miniatures to allow Light/Heavy Infantry so you can field the Breetai? What about people who custom build their own models? Or use accurate samples from either the pre-existing models or Battletech as long as they're appropriately based? There's no option that isn't going to annoy a small part of your tournament fanbase, but a line does need to be drawn, and drawn early, so as for people to make an informed decision.

* The term Exclusive doesn't really have any meaning anymore, but it's still the term PB use.

But otherwise, I think it's actually a reasonable start for the tournament organizer in terms of keeping everything manageable. Hope he gets the numbers he needs to make it a fun time for everyone.

So now that the board game distraction is done can we assume they'll be focused laser like on Wave 2?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
So now that the board game distraction is done can we assume they'll be focused laser like on Wave 2?

As close as they'll get:

Morgan Vening wrote:
Well, the GenCon Event List is live, and we can see what's available for competitive play. I told Forar to post it up (couldn't do it from work), but he's being a temperamental lazy zergling, and didn't want to.

A search for Robotech lists 16 events.

Of those, it breaks down as follows.
7 RPG events (so, not what we're talking about here)
7 non-tourney, no/little experience, material provided, essentially extended demo events (important, but again, not the topic of discussion)
2 events listed as a tournament.

Both events seem to be separate, but otherwise identical, just being run on different days (Friday 1pm, Saturday 1pm).

Here's the direct links, but the general info is as follows.

Description - Gen Con's 1st tournament! Bring your assembled 200 point force to the table to throw down against UEDF & Zentraedi from all across the galaxy! Prizes for the top 3 players & best paint!
Players - 4 to 12.
Duration - 5hrs.

So, firstly glad they're keeping the numbers manageable. Sure, it's less than I'd want at the first official tournament in over two years (May 2015 Open House was the last I saw reported), it's definitely not something you'ld want to overestimate too heavily on. A small tourney is better for perspective than a big tourney that only gets a handful of players. And as neither prior event (Adepticon 2015 or the 2015 POH) was more than this (I believe 9 and 11 respectively?), I think this is a reasonable number that they can hope to build on.

Second, I'm kind of disappointed that the "standard" game size (300pts) is being undercut. Again, I can understand it, as the Zentradi options are incredibly limited for army build, due to the absence of Wave 2, but it does mean that getting more than 2 formations a side really pushes things. Making the whole alternative action thing more IGOUGO. But again, I can understant it, for reasons.

Third, and this is where clarity needs to exist. Each tourney is listed as 5 hours long. To get a singular winner (assuming ties are impossible) if the event has full participation, will require 4 rounds. Meaning everything from orientation to deployments to packing up all have to be subsumed into the 1hr 15m timeframe. I haven't played yet, so an honest question, will that be sufficient? According to the POH, they had 250pts in originally 2hrs, but reduced it to 1 1/2 before the event, though I don't recall hearing in a post-review if that was sufficient. Of course, if my next interpretation is wrong, there'll be plenty of time.

Some other points needing clarification, is whether the two events are fully independent or not. My interpretation is that they are, and each is fully independent. HOWEVER, both list in the description as being "GenCon's 1st tournament". Now, it doesn't matter which interpretation is true, as long as it's clear. People showing up expecting a two day tournament might be miffed if it's two single day ones. And people expecting it to be a one day tourney might get miffed that only playing that one day will probably remove any chance of prizes. I'm EXPECTING it to be two separate tournaments, but clarification would be good, even if the time constraint I mentioned above then becomes an issue.

Final point is another of clarification, and speaks to the issue in my second point, above. And that is the matter of proxies. Which is almost assuredly going to annoy someone. Palladium have released several items as character model Exclusives* (MPA, FPA, SValk) that could theoretically be purchased in numbers to make relevant squads. But as the pricing is significant, you get into the old CCG argument of Mr Suitcase. Which is the concept that a player with more money or access than another player has a significant advantage. So if you allow proxies, you annoy the people who aren't able to afford $66+ per squad, or in the case of FPA, are no longer available. But if you don't, you annoy the people who did. There's also the question of where you draw the line if you do. Can you provide alternate appropriately sized miniatures to allow Light/Heavy Infantry so you can field the Breetai? What about people who custom build their own models? Or use accurate samples from either the pre-existing models or Battletech as long as they're appropriately based? There's no option that isn't going to annoy a small part of your tournament fanbase, but a line does need to be drawn, and drawn early, so as for people to make an informed decision.

* The term Exclusive doesn't really have any meaning anymore, but it's still the term PB use.

But otherwise, I think it's actually a reasonable start for the tournament organizer in terms of keeping everything manageable. Hope he gets the numbers he needs to make it a fun time for everyone.

Well they might be hard pressed for time unless they cut the rolls in half and remove half the dodging, swerving or jinking or whatever save items they have, but then if they only allow those items they have made, then it will make for a very poor game with UEDF crushing the Zents every time, question is who will be playing Zents? or will it be UEDF vs. UEDF? but then that brings in if they even have enough players, sorry but the time slot is bad, you want either an early morning or later afternoon slot, not around lunch time slot, when most of the other goodies are going too.

PLEASE don't quote huge posts to only add a few sentences without spoiler tagging them...

I've won with Zents multiple times against uedf. If you are getting crushed using zents you aren't playing them right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no I wasn't using any wave two items.

 jaymz wrote:
I've won with Zents multiple times against uedf. If you are getting crushed using zents you aren't playing them right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no I wasn't using any wave two items.

I suppose you could say the same for the reverse: If you aren't crushing Zents, you aren't using UEDF correctly.

I will have to look again at both sides , but I seem to remember that low points games tended to favour the Zents rather than the UEDF, inso much they get more models on table and potentially can swamp the rock hard UEDF.

Almost, makes me want to dust down a few models and have a game

Point was wave one is actually balanced if you build your forces right. Building "right" is just a little more difficult and costs more more money for zents beyond the core box than it does for uedf

Well, since this thread would be dead otherwise, that brings up a couple of interesting questions (I admit to not having played the game yet)

1) What's the best builds for each side with the core box?

2) How about with the add-ons the backers got?

3) What units shine best in the game?

I see the RRT Commentary is currently having a small unofficial poll over whether on not people would be willing to re-pay for shipping Wave 2 if it meant getting their stuff. Several have volunteered to, and several have said nopes.

My question is, would those people who are willing to pay be fine paying if others weren't? Because shipping in some cases is going to be excessive, especially international backers, exacerbated if VAT etc is included. And as it is unfair to volunteer not just yourself, but all backers, to require shipping to deliver on the outstanding contract, what you would essentially be doing is donating money to Palladium.

I'm just not sure if those offering to pay for shipping would balk at the idea, if others didn't. I've noticed an intrinsic issue people have with things being fair. One campaign that's late, offered everyone a free reward for being late. Completely free, no extra cost. But the people who pledged the most, got comparatively less (people paying less than $70 got +$40 value, people paying $70+ got +$30 value). And people got angry. Another campaign offered an expansion of the core components of several expansions totaling ~$90 for a flat $50. But some people already paid for some of those as an option, and so those that paid in advance would have paid $90, and those who did this add-on several years later got the same product for $50.

So, I'm curious if any of the people willing to pay shipping for Wave 2 (several who post here), would be willing to do so if it'd essentially be a donation, when others wouldn't.

I paid a little extra shipping to get my Kingdom Death stuff, and I groused a little bit. In the case of Palladium, my willingness to pay shipping depends in large part on what, exactly, Wave 2 is going to be like.

If Wave 2 is going to match Wave 1, such that everything matches in scale, material and detail (specifically the MAC-II Monster that I paid extra for), then I'd be willing to pay $10-ish to get it.

If Wave 2 is going to be gakky lo-rez, lo-fi PVC, then no fething way. PB should pay for that.

I won't pay extra for shipping.