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we need a way to cope with all the crazy stuff that's going on at the moment...

We need something comparable to the Tau overwatch rule how about - Whenever a unit of guardsmen fire overwatch all wyverns, thud guns and mortars etc can also fire at the charging unit?

Vehicle squadron rules similar to the SM ones a points drop across the board for most things and then DOCTRINES!!! fluffy and fun, they would make our infantry shine!

Yoyoyo wrote:
@John. The idea of tanks is that they can operate to the front. If not, you get into the issue of duplicate roles with pure fire support like artillery.

That's the reasoning behind the AV11 change, and it's probably GW's logic as well with the Demolisher and Punisher.

Tanks and SPGs can be exposed to enemy fire. Artillery is indirect or camoflagued.

Most tanks are relatively vulnerable to being swarmed by infantry, hence combined arms in modern doctrine. I prefer that basic, ranged Russes stay 14/13/10 because it forces combined arms and forces a vulnerability on pure armor. Heck, I would suggest the Vanquisher go back to 14/12/10 in exchange for a firepower upgrade to further distinguish roles. And the Demolisher can bump to 14/13/12 or 14/14/11 to justify its points cost.

You don't consider AV11 vulnerable to "being swarmed by infantry"?

Most basic troop types can glance AV11 to death. Examples:
- Any Imperium unit w/ Krak Grenades
- Orks with Furious Charge
- Daemonettes w/ Rending
- Tau with Pulse Rifles
- Necrons w/ Gauss

I also think there's value in a universal chassis (very easy to understand), and not penalizing any tank for acting in close support. Once a Vanquisher finishes busting all it's priority targets, why can't it help the troops assault an objective with the hull/pintle/sponson weapons? All that said -- AV10 versus AV11 is a pretty minor point.

I am going to dig through the thread for notes on the Hellhound variants, before finally getting into artillery.

Yoyoyo wrote:

- Orks with Furious Charge

They won't. They are just S4 with Furious Charge.

That's what Big Choppas and Power Klaws are for.

 vipoid wrote:
That's what Big Choppas and Power Klaws are for.

Uhm... but they hurt AV11 even without the Furious Charge bonus. So something is still wrong in the statement .

 AtoMaki wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
That's what Big Choppas and Power Klaws are for.

Uhm... but they hurt AV11 even without the Furious Charge bonus. So something is still wrong in the statement .

That was kinda the point. I was saying Orks don't usually rely on the FC bonus to hurt vehicles.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
@John. The idea of tanks is that they can operate to the front. If not, you get into the issue of duplicate roles with pure fire support like artillery.

That's the reasoning behind the AV11 change, and it's probably GW's logic as well with the Demolisher and Punisher.

Tanks and SPGs can be exposed to enemy fire. Artillery is indirect or camoflagued.

Most tanks are relatively vulnerable to being swarmed by infantry, hence combined arms in modern doctrine. I prefer that basic, ranged Russes stay 14/13/10 because it forces combined arms and forces a vulnerability on pure armor. Heck, I would suggest the Vanquisher go back to 14/12/10 in exchange for a firepower upgrade to further distinguish roles. And the Demolisher can bump to 14/13/12 or 14/14/11 to justify its points cost.

I cannot recall Leman Russ variants ever being less than AV 14/13/10. That said I do have a kind of selective memory with that kind of thing.

Yoyoyo wrote:
You don't consider AV11 vulnerable to "being swarmed by infantry"?

Most basic troop types can glance AV11 to death. Examples:
- Any Imperium unit w/ Krak Grenades
- Orks with Furious Charge
- Daemonettes w/ Rending
- Tau with Pulse Rifles
- Necrons w/ Gauss

I also think there's value in a universal chassis (very easy to understand), and not penalizing any tank for acting in close support. Once a Vanquisher finishes busting all it's priority targets, why can't it help the troops assault an objective with the hull/pintle/sponson weapons? All that said -- AV10 versus AV11 is a pretty minor point.

I am going to dig through the thread for notes on the Hellhound variants, before finally getting into artillery.

In that case, we might as well drop Russes to 14/10//9 and call it a day...

There is a huge functional difference between 10 and 11, and pretending that it doesn't exist is ludicrous.

And the shooty options for Tau Pulse Rifles, where they can only Glance vs Pen? Or Gauss which is special?

But your examples only illustrate why 11 is meaningful over 10, and reinforce my point.

 AtoMaki wrote:
They won't. They are just S4 with Furious Charge.

Yeah, I was thinking they were S4 base, sorry.

Bloodletters of Khorne qualify. Boyz are going to need a Boss Nob (S4) who will probably be rocking a Big Choppa or PK anyway.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
You don't consider AV11 vulnerable to "being swarmed by infantry"?

Most basic troop types can glance AV11 to death. Examples:
- Any Imperium unit w/ Krak Grenades
- Orks with Furious Charge
- Daemonettes w/ Rending
- Tau with Pulse Rifles
- Necrons w/ Gauss

I also think there's value in a universal chassis (very easy to understand), and not penalizing any tank for acting in close support. Once a Vanquisher finishes busting all it's priority targets, why can't it help the troops assault an objective with the hull/pintle/sponson weapons? All that said -- AV10 versus AV11 is a pretty minor point.

I am going to dig through the thread for notes on the Hellhound variants, before finally getting into artillery.

In that case, we might as well drop Russes to 14/10//9 and call it a day...

There is a huge functional difference between 10 and 11, and pretending that it doesn't exist is ludicrous.

And the shooty options for Tau Pulse Rifles, where they can only Glance vs Pen? Or Gauss which is special?

But your examples only illustrate why 11 is meaningful over 10, and reinforce my point.

Please, Rear Armour 11 would be amazing for my poor Leman Russ, and 12 on the Demolishions variants would be amazing too.
Right now they get murdered by anything that gets close.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Most tanks are relatively vulnerable to being swarmed by infantry, hence combined arms in modern doctrine. I prefer that basic, ranged Russes stay 14/13/10 because it forces combined arms and forces a vulnerability on pure armor. Heck, I would suggest the Vanquisher go back to 14/12/10 in exchange for a firepower upgrade to further distinguish roles. And the Demolisher can bump to 14/13/12 or 14/14/11 to justify its points cost.

I cannot recall Leman Russ variants ever being less than AV 14/13/10. That said I do have a kind of selective memory with that kind of thing.

Kids, today. The basic Russ was 14/12/10 from 40k3 through 2 Codices, until the 2008 Codex bumped them to 14/13/10. The last "Imperial Guard" Codex would be something of a recent high point for the Russ, gaining AV13 on the side with Lumbering Behemoth. The name change drops LB for no good reason.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Most tanks are relatively vulnerable to being swarmed by infantry, hence combined arms in modern doctrine. I prefer that basic, ranged Russes stay 14/13/10 because it forces combined arms and forces a vulnerability on pure armor. Heck, I would suggest the Vanquisher go back to 14/12/10 in exchange for a firepower upgrade to further distinguish roles. And the Demolisher can bump to 14/13/12 or 14/14/11 to justify its points cost.

I cannot recall Leman Russ variants ever being less than AV 14/13/10. That said I do have a kind of selective memory with that kind of thing.

Kids, today. The basic Russ was 14/12/10 from 40k3 through 2 Codices, until the 2008 Codex bumped them to 14/13/10. The last "Imperial Guard" Codex would be something of a recent high point for the Russ, gaining AV13 on the side with Lumbering Behemoth. The name change drops LB for no good reason.

Great, now you have me reminiscing on my 3rd/4th edition stuff. There was a reason I forgot that.

Er. The desired effect is that all LR variants are encouraged to be used in close support as your spearhead, while being vulnerable to infantry who can target the weaker rear armour. Aren't we all in agreement here?

That's what I mean by minor point. I don't care about AV10 or AV11. I care about the desired effect, as well as the design pros of having a universal chassis. We can usually definitively answer finer details like this using scenarios and statistics.

At AV10, the rear armour can simply be glanced to death by the most common weapons in the game. That's not exactly an incentive to tanks operating forward, shocking infantry off objectives or out of cover, or scoring Line Breaker and forcing a response. Meanwhile infantry can stop charges but how do they stop shooting? These are issues I'm trying to resolve with an AV11 bump.

No need to facepalm man. I think you may not have understood me, which happens a lot on the net. Address these points and I'm obviously going to listen.

Yup, sadly the Leman Russ can be killed by a section of Marines shooting its ass, something that GW have failed as of yet to fix.
At least it dosnt have to worry about most basic Infantry shooting its side like the Chimera and Taurox do....

Honestly I'd be ok with Russes going to 14/12/11. Thirteen side armor is sweet but that 10 rear armor is awful when an unstoppable marine drop pod just drops out a squad that glances it to death.

Marines have the same chances of glancing that Russ as they have for killing another marine (1/9).

Just had an idea (why is it that so many good ideas come from sitting on the toilet?)

How about an Ambush! order?
If issued then the unit may choose to fire at any point within your opponents moving phase.

This means that you can hold your ground and wait for your opponent to move within range/LOS of your big nasty shooting units whilst not having to worry about them charging forward and tearing you a new one before they even get a chance to fire.

 master of ordinance wrote:
How about an Ambush! order?
If issued then the unit may choose to fire at any point within your opponents moving phase.

This means that you can hold your ground and wait for your opponent to move within range/LOS of your big nasty shooting units whilst not having to worry about them charging forward and tearing you a new one before they even get a chance to fire.

So basically like a mega-buffed Interceptor? The problem is it encourages castling and doesn't reward your opponent for slick manuevers. Scions actually need something like this to compensate for their 18" weapons and 24" Salvo Volleygun. The theme fits them as elite forces, but your idea would be infuriating to play against on something like an Autocannon blob.

Can you imagine "Ignore Cover" and "Ambush" at the same time, on an army like Dark Eldar? Poor guys! There may be potential but you need to figure out how to avoid the negative effects, as above.

Going back to the LR discussion (I'm almost done, I swear) I'm going to get into the weapons. First we fix up the Ordnance issues.

LR Main Gun rule: The turret (main gun) may target independently, is not counted as firing while at combat speed, and applies special effects (like Ordnance or Gets Hot) to the vehicle in the order of which the LR's weapons are fired.

So the idea is toning down some of the penalties derived from the main guns, while making hull and sponson weapons which mismatch the main gun profile much more viable. The LR main weapons themselves are generally decent but I'd tweak two things.

Vanquisher - Instant Death and Ordnance. The Vanquisher Cannon is a big gun, we want catastrophic effects on the target and the associated fluffy drawbacks (though technically, Ordnance is a straight buff after a rules tweak).

Exterminator - Autocannons aren't very exciting, but like Depeche Mode sang, "everything counts in large amounts". So why not make it something like Heavy 6? We can basically turn it into an upgunned Punisher.

In terms of LR survivability, we discussed rear armour without getting a consensus, but I'd also like to see the Enginseer get some love. I'm rolling around an idea Enginseers can buff a LR tank to 4HP ("Overrepair") with repair, the first test coming during deployment. Though to be honest this idea is still very rough and I haven't critiqued its drawbacks.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Er. The desired effect is that all LR variants are encouraged to be used in close support as your spearhead, while being vulnerable to infantry who can target the weaker rear armour. Aren't we all in agreement here?

Not really. I'd spearhead with my Thunderers (count-as Demolishers) as close support and linebreakers, and often do. For these, 14/13/11 makes a big difference over 14/13/10.

My Destroyer-style basic Russes are more fire support, and could easily play as Vanquishers (or actual Destroyers) on the back line. 14/12/10 would be acceptable, and 14/13/10 is ace. The 72" guns can play differently from 24" guns.

If I had Exterminators, 14/13/10 is fine for the 48" gun. I'm OK with Punishers and Executioners using the Demolisher 14/13/11 profile, but, as above, I wouldn't be upset to have the 24" Demolisher and Punisher at 14/13/12.

I understand your logic, no worries. I like a unified AV11 as it's simple and god knows 40k is complicated enough as is.

But like I said, I'm more concerned about how the army would operate as a whole at this point.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
How about an Ambush! order?
If issued then the unit may choose to fire at any point within your opponents moving phase.

This means that you can hold your ground and wait for your opponent to move within range/LOS of your big nasty shooting units whilst not having to worry about them charging forward and tearing you a new one before they even get a chance to fire.

So basically like a mega-buffed Interceptor? The problem is it encourages castling and doesn't reward your opponent for slick manuevers. Scions actually need something like this to compensate for their 18" weapons and 24" Salvo Volleygun. The theme fits them as elite forces, but your idea would be infuriating to play against on something like an Autocannon blob.

Can you imagine "Ignore Cover" and "Ambush" at the same time, on an army like Dark Eldar? Poor guys! There may be potential but you need to figure out how to avoid the negative effects, as above.

As you can only issue one order to a section per turn there is no chance of that happening

Besides, castling is the one thing that we do really well at the moment. It also gives units like the Heavy Weapons and shorter ranged Specialist teams teams the chance to fire at enemy forces whom spring from cover, or chance to pop that tank that presents its flank as it drives by. And it really hurts the Skyhammer if you manage to get it off in time...
Besides, very few opponents bother with slick moves against the Guard these days. They dont need to usually.

You know, I'm not hot on the "Ambush" idea when presented as an Order but it definitely has merit as a Formation to match 40k's power creep.

Maybe a Formation like 3x Vet squads w/Forward Observers, who gain Stealth, Ambush and Infiltrate but deploy without a Chimera? They lose Stealth + Ambush once they open fire or are fired upon. This also means you can get cheap troops onto your objectives quickly and reliably for Maelstrom!

Beyond that, what does IG have for Interception? Why they hell aren't Hydras blowing up Drop Pods as they're coming in? Seems thematic as a meta counter and this is a unit that could use a little extra utility.

Yoyoyo wrote:
You know, I'm not hot on the "Ambush" idea when presented as an Order but it definitely has merit as a Formation to match 40k's power creep.

Maybe a Formation like 3x Vet squads w/Forward Observers, who gain Stealth, Ambush and Infiltrate but deploy without a Chimera? They lose Stealth + Ambush once they open fire or are fired upon. This also means you can get cheap troops onto your objectives quickly and reliably for Maelstrom!

Beyond that, what does IG have for Interception? Why they hell aren't Hydras blowing up Drop Pods as they're coming in? Seems thematic as a meta counter and this is a unit that could use a little extra utility.

Because we are not Space Marines and thus we do not get nice things.

I quite fancy a "Company" formation similar to the Marine Demi-Company. Bonuses depend on company type.
Take 1 CCS, 3 platoons plus some extra stuff as tax (HWS/SWS/Commies etc).
Extra bonuses based on type chosen.

Something like free Chimeras for armoured fist, free carapace armour for heavy infantry, free fortifications for shield company...

Alternatively/additionally some bonus special rules...

I'd buy that for a dollar.

stripeydave wrote:
I quite fancy a "Company" formation similar to the Marine Demi-Company. Bonuses depend on company type.
Take 1 CCS, 3 platoons plus some extra stuff as tax (HWS/SWS/Commies etc).
Extra bonuses based on type chosen.

Something like free Chimeras for armoured fist, free carapace armour for heavy infantry, free fortifications for shield company...

Alternatively/additionally some bonus special rules...

I'd buy that for a dollar.

Free tanks for all, or free upgrades to all vehicles *drools*

Just for fun I did up that idea last night. Here's an example of an 1850pt list with all the isual OP 7th edition special rules.

Astra Militarum Battle Group
Core is Infantry Company, free Chimeras and Vox for troops choices.

Infantry Company
1x LC, 1x CCS and 2x Infantry Platoon, automatically passes all orders and may add all regimental advisors to CCS free of charge.
Reconnaissance Platoon
3x Veteran sections with Camo, Snare Mines, Infiltrate, Vox, and "Ambush" special rule. Cannot take Dedicated Transport.
Armoured Platoon
3x LR tank, 1x Enginseer w/2x Servitors, squadron starts at 4HP and Enginseer automatically passes repair rolls.
Artillery Battery
2x Basilisk, may add 1x Deathstrike or Manticore. Rolls Scatter as normal for Indirect Fire.
Air Defense Squadron
2x Hydra, may add 1x Hydra. Gains Interceptor.
Tactical Aviation Detachment
2x Vendetta. No transport capacity but gains free wing bolters. Gains Strafing Run and Tank Hunters. May reroll when entering from reserves.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Just for fun I did up that idea last night. Here's an example of an 1850pt list with all the isual OP 7th edition special rules.

Astra Militarum Battle Group
Core is Infantry Company, free Chimeras and Vox for troops choices.

Infantry Company
1x LC, 1x CCS and 2x Infantry Platoon, automatically passes all orders and may add all regimental advisors to CCS free of charge.
Reconnaissance Platoon
3x Veteran sections with Camo, Snare Mines, Infiltrate, Vox, and "Ambush" special rule. Cannot take Dedicated Transport.
Armoured Platoon
3x LR tank, 1x Enginseer w/2x Servitors, squadron starts at 4HP and Enginseer automatically passes repair rolls.
Artillery Battery
2x Basilisk, may add 1x Deathstrike or Manticore. Rolls Scatter as normal for Indirect Fire.
Air Defense Squadron
2x Hydra, may add 1x Hydra. Gains Interceptor.
Tactical Aviation Detachment
2x Vendetta. No transport capacity but gains free wing bolters. Gains Strafing Run and Tank Hunters. May reroll when entering from reserves.

Oh boy, pleasepleasepleaseplease make this something.

Yeeeeeeeah...no. Don't just look at Codex: Space Marines.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Yeeeeeeeah...no. Don't just look at Codex: Space Marines.

Why not, they keep looking at us and wanting what we have.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Yeeeeeeeah...no. Don't just look at Codex: Space Marines.

Why not, they keep looking at us and wanting what we have.

And not just us - they're stealing stuff from SoB, too...