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Still an incredibly fragile, expensive unit with mediocre shooting and a situational at best first charge.

They'd be useful for killing MEQ and maybe hunting some of the weaker 3+ MCs, but, what in the codex doesn't already excel at doing that.

Plus, if someone sneezes in their general direction, they'll suffer significant casualties, which would several hamper their ability to even get a charge off or do anything once their in combat.

The ability to charge from reserves helps, but I wouldn't exactly be worried that my opponent spent 11PPM units for a single situationally dependent charge.

I posted way back in this thread what RR need. In short, durability, hitting power (shooting and/or assault), staying power, and a role that either isn't covered, or does it better than any other unit at the expense of being more specialized. But above all, they need value. 11PPM is an obscene cost for a guardsmen that goes fast.

The base cost for a rough rider with no extra wargear (flak and pistol or gun) should be around 7ppm. With appropriate rules and/or wargear, you shouldn't breach 10ppm, and that should include infinite use hunting lance with hit and run and some durability/staying power buffs so they can hit hard, and continue to do damage over a few rounds.

You know, if you wanted them to be for assault only.

I'd much prefer them to be more akin to 'Bike Guard', in the way that many codices have a base troop unit, and then a base troop unit on a bike. RR platoons, tooled as either a mobile shooting platform, or assault unit.

Bring back the praetorian and give them exotic mounts. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Praetorian_Guard
Although I think that would be really cool if they did do that I really have nothing to complain about currently.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Here are my suggestions for how to change rough riders.

Rough Riders…..55
Rough Rider Ws-4, Bs-4, S-3, T-3, W-1, I-3, A-1, Ld-7, Sv-5+
Rough Rider Sergeant Ws-4, Bs-4, S-3, T-3, W-1, I-3, A-2, Ld-8, Sv-5+
Unit Type: Calvary. Rough Rider Sergeant is Cavalry (character).

Unit Composition: 4 rough riders, 1 Rough Rider sergeant.

Wargear: Flak armor, Laspistol, Close combat weapon, Hunting lance, Frag grenades, Krak grenades.

Special Rules:
Cavalry charge: when charging the unit gains +2 to its initiative and +2 to its strength for the first round of combat. This bonus applies in addition to those given by hunting lances. The bonus to initiative cannot be applied to weapons that have the unwieldy special rule.
Here comes the Calvary: The unit may charge the same turn it comes in from reserves.
Scout
Outflank
Relentless

Options:
May include up to five additional Rough Riders…..11/model
The entire squad may replace its hunting lances with power swords…..20
The Rough Rider sergeant may take melta bombs….5
Up to two rough riders may replace their hunting lance with one item from the special weapons list.

I'd still never take them.

Rough Riders could be riding Warlord Titans and I'd still ignore them.

 Blacksails wrote:
I posted way back in this thread what RR need. In short, durability, hitting power (shooting and/or assault), staying power, and a role that either isn't covered, or does it better than any other unit at the expense of being more specialized. But above all, they need value. 11PPM is an obscene cost for a guardsmen that goes fast.

The base cost for a rough rider with no extra wargear (flak and pistol or gun) should be around 7ppm. With appropriate rules and/or wargear, you shouldn't breach 10ppm, and that should include infinite use hunting lance with hit and run and some durability/staying power buffs so they can hit hard, and continue to do damage over a few rounds

Agreed, although I have a tough time with RRs at 10 pts. If RR cost exactly the same as a regular Guardsmen, or maybe +1 pt for Cavalry, they'd be OK as-is.

I like RR at a 7-8 pts cost - not unlike Veterans, but Cavalry instead of BS4.

In my head, if I was paying 10pts for a RR, it'd have some combination of 2W/T4/5++ or 6++/Carapace armour, plus a few useful special rules like hit and run, and the ability to bring in mounted characters like mounted commissars and priests for buffs.

But a mostly naked RR at 7ppm seems like a good baseline.

I'd like and expect to see formations like the Eldar craftworld one and the Decurion, i.e. a core base of standard AM with lots of choice of add ons with some nice freebie thrown in.

 Blacksails wrote:
In my head, if I was paying 10pts for a RR, it'd have some combination of 2W/T4/5++ or 6++/Carapace armour, plus a few useful special rules like hit and run, and the ability to bring in mounted characters like mounted commissars and priests for buffs.

But a mostly naked RR at 7ppm seems like a good baseline.

For a whopping 10 points per RR model, I had better get WS4 T4 W2 H&R *and* reusable Lances.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


For a whopping 10 points per RR model, I had better get WS4 T4 W2 H&R *and* reusable Lances.

...That's what I'm saying?

The details are debatable, but I don't think anyone will scream 'CHEESE!' with RR were more durable and had reusable lances, in conjunction with H&R and attached priests and gak.

I wasn't sure how many of the above you needed to justify a 10ppm price.

I'm lukewarm on attaching Priests and such - RR cavalry models are tricky enough as it is, and if they have to pay to add models, that's not really helping.

I'd rather a 10-pt model with the "good" statline (WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld8 Sv 5+; still worse than a SM Scout, marginally competitive with an Ork) than to be forced to justify the unit by adding more expensive chromey models.

Make RR troops.

Everyone else get biker troops nowadays anyway, and what's fluffier:

20 Vets covering for 7-10 tanks
20 Cavalry covering the Tank's flanks, and making counter-charges?

Cavs would be able to keep up and be useful in fluff.

Sure, RR can be Troops, though technically, they really ought to be Auxiliaries like Ogryn, Ratling, Psyker and Stormes.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
So with the next codex release rumored to come out after Tau & possibly Chaos dex's what is the likelihood that any of these concerns will actually be addressed? Alot of what is being discussed here are things IG players have been asking for....for years. Its kind of breaks my heart because there is so many passion for this army in the community & the feedback we give is just ignored codex release after codex release. Even the most simply things that are common sense.

Tbh seeing the current Guard dex was made with 7th in mind, I bet we'll be the very last faction to receive a 7th edition codex... if we get one at all.

Ahahahahahaha...... Wait, you where joking right?
This heap of trash is most certainly not a 7th level codex. It is just plain bad. Hell, it feels almost like a nerf from the previous one.

Never said it was a "good" attempt to write a 6th edition codex with 7th in mind I think we can all agree it was a very bad attempt, but you can't really deny they tried to make a 7th dex before it hit with very mediocre/bad results.

Playing my first few 7th battles of over the last few weeks I noticed a few things. Ordnance is far too unreliable for guard, most my kills have came from infantry and orders. Also while I enjoyed my rate of fire increase via FRFSRF, the tau had a similar ability, which with their S5 and AP5 weapons with extra range made firefights reliant on A) Staying out of their line of sight and B)Jumping around corners within 12" with FRFSRF to get an initial advantage. Also it is incredibly hard for us to knock down enemies hull points, and seeing the lack of reliability of Ordnance actually hitting targets, most indirect weapons are much less useful than those (once again Tau) used by other factions.

I think it's quite easy to say, we need possibly FRFSRF buffed in some manner and an increase in effectiveness for out Barrage and Ordnance weapons. I'm thinking maybe expand tank orders to normal commanders with a slight point hike (maybe make it optional?). Ability to issue special orders to artillery units if you have a Master of Ordnance advisor? We also noticed, if the enemy targeted my Company Command Squad fairly early on, while potentially not shooting a more juicy target, like a russ, it was incredibly easy to cripple my heavy support teams.

Putting it rather bluntly, anyone trying to say that this book was "6th written with 7th in mind" is full of it.

It was 6th written with 6th in mind. It just didn't get released until shortly before 7th launched.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
Make RR troops.

Everyone else get biker troops nowadays anyway, and what's fluffier:

20 Vets covering for 7-10 tanks
20 Cavalry covering the Tank's flanks, and making counter-charges?

Cavs would be able to keep up and be useful in fluff.

You know what else "would be able to keep up and be useful in fluff"?

Sentinels. Which are already part of Armored Companies to begin with...

Seriously, Rough Riders are a holdover from Rogue Trader.
We're actually starting to see an advancement in some of the aesthetic/design concepts now for much older armies(Space Marines with Centurions for example) and I for one would rather see Rough Riders get axed than have to keep carrying their dead weight in my codex when I could have rules for something else in their place.

Something I like to see but i'm not holding my breath for is a rework of sergeants. It just isn't right that veteran or a stormtrooper has the same ld as a common guardsmen, so raise them ot ld8, but keep sergeants ld8 as well. for ordinary guardsmen squad it is logical that the sergeant task is to maintain order among the men but I can't see that hardend veterans or indoctrinated stormtroopers will have as much issue with that, rather I would like to see veteran/stormtrooper sergeants get squad-orders or combat drills that acts as mini buffs.

Sergeants being able to issue Orders, as they stand now, would require a significant rework of the Order system.

The biggest change I want for Sergeants is for them to get their damn rifles back. We're not Marines, we don't want to be in CC.

Pistols+CCWs are for suckers and thugs--and my Cadians are neither.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Sentinels.

Oh yeah.

I keep forgetting these guys exist.

Neglect'll do that to a gamer.

Fast Attack:

Sentinel Squadron:

(1-3 Sentinels @ 35 ppm)

Ws 3 / Bs 3 / S 5 / Front 10 / Side 10 / Rear 10 / I 3 / A 1 / HP 2

Wargear:
-Multilaser
-Searchlight
-Sensory Array (Any enemy units within 12" of a sentinel suffers a -1 to its cover save, and loses and becomes unaffected by: Shrouded, Stealth, Invisibility, Infiltrate, Scout)

Special Rules:
-Move Through Cover
-Scout

Options:
-May take from the AM vehicle Equipment List
-May swap the Multilaser for:
Heavy Flamer (0 pts)
Autocannon (5 pts)
Missile Launcher (5 pts)
Plasmacannon (10 pts)
Lascannon (10 pts)
-May upgrade the unit to Armoured Sentinels (5 ppm)

Armored Sentinels are a Chimera, but without Transport or the 2nd gun.

If a Chimera is worth 35-40 pts, then
- Armored Sentinel is worth at most 30-35 pts.
- Scout Sentinel is worth 25-30 pts.

35 pts is too high for a Scout Sentinel. Especially if it isn't ObSec Scoring.

Also, 1-3 is too small. Try 1-5 models per Squadron.


Finally, add this kicker: A Scout Sentinel Squadron consisting of a single Scout Sentinel may take a Valkyrie as a Dedicated Transport, and deploy via Grav Chute.

If you'd have taken a Valk anyways, why not spend the additional 25pts for a Scout Sentinel, and not compete for the FOC slot?

Give sentinels the option to upgrade with a chainsaw giving an extra attack and ap4.

Unless they allow a sentinel to take a second, permanent (not one-shot) weapon, then they should just be killed off out of the codex. They are walking gun platforms, who can't take more than one gun.

Just make it a chainfist. A deep strike option could be interesting for a scout . 35pts deep strike with a heavy flamer

 Briancj wrote:
Unless they allow a sentinel to take a second, permanent (not one-shot) weapon, then they should just be killed off out of the codex. They are walking gun platforms, who can't take more than one gun.

Alternatively, give them a special rule where they get to fire their weapon twice.

I'm glad sentinels were brought up because yes, their point cost is outrageous. If GW has no plans to buff their statline or rules, then scouts sentinels should be 20-25 pts at most, armored sentinels 30 pts.

Personally I'd like to see them get more survivability or firepower while maintaining their current post cost but hell will probably freeze over before that happens.

 Ignatius wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Cadian shock troopers. Trained from birth to be a soldier. Only hits 50% of the time and has a roughly 30% chance of failing to understand their orders.

That's only 125,000 times more accurate than the actual U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://jonathanturley.org/2011/01/10/gao-u-s-has-fired-250000-rounds-for-every-insurgent-killed/

As for orders, turns out that war is loud, scary, and confusing. The radio man has to hear the command over the din of war, the sergeant has to hear the radio man over the gun fire, and the squad has to hear the sergeant. It's not a matter of them failing 30% of the time. The issue is do they receive and act on the order in a timely way, are they under threat from another target, etc.

Surely the tabletop is not a literal translation of the events playing out?

While that's a funny statistic, it's mostly meaningless. Most engagements occur at an average distance of 300+m. Entire squads of Platoons are equipped with the sole purpose of suppressive fire with M240's, which fire thousands of rounds combined per minute. Then add in that 95% of all U.S. Army infantry qualify with an M16 and 20% of them qualify expert (36/40) hits.

Still funny though.

That's my point.

 Robbert Ambrose wrote:
Something I like to see but i'm not holding my breath for is a rework of sergeants.

For a reworked MT codex, I raised LD to 8. The Sgt is now free. For +10pts you can buy a LD9 Vet Sgt with the following choices, that buff the squad they're leading:

- Drop Sgt (Rerolls DS scatter & mishaps)
- Drill Sgt (Rerolls wounds with Hotshot weapons in shooting attacks)
- Assault Sgt (WS4/I4, Counterattack, Stubborn)
- Vehicle Sgt (+1BS to Taurox Prime)

I haven't expanded much on the idea but that's the the concept.

Useable Rough Riders really do stand out as being the thing foot guard need.

I mean those geezers in the Light Brigade did not run away at the first sign of enemy gunfire when they charged the Russian positions in the Crimea.

If priests could have a mount, that would make things interesting.

Oh god yes. The Light Brigade.

Somebody recreate WW1 cavalry pl0x.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
In 6th it may have been an okay codex. Back then without all this Decurion level gak it would not have been a bad one.

But this is not 6th. It is 7th and the Imperial Guard codex might as well be titled "Codex Marine Fodder"

IG is a very tough fight for SW and BA.

Ahahahaha, you are joking right? Space Wolves can outflank us and just tear up our castle (yes, I know its a formation) and Blood Angles have this wonderful ability to move damn fast and get to us very very quickly, something that we can not counter. And our shooting is rarely, if ever, able to kill anything worth a damn before they hit us.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
In 6th it may have been an okay codex. Back then without all this Decurion level gak it would not have been a bad one.

But this is not 6th. It is 7th and the Imperial Guard codex might as well be titled "Codex Marine Fodder"

IG is a very tough fight for SW and BA.

Ahahahaha, you are joking right? Space Wolves can outflank us and just tear up our castle (yes, I know its a formation) and Blood Angles have this wonderful ability to move damn fast and get to us very very quickly, something that we can not counter. And our shooting is rarely, if ever, able to kill anything worth a damn before they hit us.

Having spent the last two years playing IG against C:SM (and recently joining C:SM), I can safely say that, compared to IG, C:SM has:

-Better Shooting
-Better Assaulting
-Better Mobility
-Higher Toughness Per Point
-Waaay More Freebies
-More Vehicles
-More Reliable Vehicles
-Better Solutions To Tactical Situations
-Better Deployment Options
-More Efficient Troops
-More Viable Units

 Selym wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
In 6th it may have been an okay codex. Back then without all this Decurion level gak it would not have been a bad one.

But this is not 6th. It is 7th and the Imperial Guard codex might as well be titled "Codex Marine Fodder"

IG is a very tough fight for SW and BA.

Ahahahaha, you are joking right? Space Wolves can outflank us and just tear up our castle (yes, I know its a formation) and Blood Angles have this wonderful ability to move damn fast and get to us very very quickly, something that we can not counter. And our shooting is rarely, if ever, able to kill anything worth a damn before they hit us.

Having spent the last two years playing IG against C:SM (and recently joining C:SM), I can safely say that, compared to IG, C:SM has:

-Better Shooting
-Better Assaulting
-Better Mobility
-Higher Toughness Per Point
-Waaay More Freebies
-More Vehicles
-More Reliable Vehicles
-Better Solutions To Tactical Situations
-Better Deployment Options
-More Efficient Troops
-More Viable Units

But wait, CSM are supposed to be by far the worst MEQ uni-MEQ. Ah. Yes, I see.