Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Selym wrote:
Huh.

I haven't seen anyone win with Orks since that one time in early 6th, when someone tailored.

Orks are cheap and fast - they can get in there pretty quick, and do a lot of damage. 40k rules about not shooting into CC really hamper the IG.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Especially if the IG player is feeding you 50 pt squads they don't care about.

Everything has a counter. MSU included.

That's true, but the counter is NOT assault units in LRs. LRs kill your model count.

"Sheesh Martel, what do you run?"

It doesn't matter what I run. That's the point. There's nothing in C:BA that any list in the game truly fears. I'd say the same is true for SW, minus TWC, because TWC fits the paradigm of 7th ed assault units. In 7th ed, assault units must be fast, not use transports, and be extremely durable. Any failure to meet one of those criteria disqualifies a unit as a truly effective assault unit in 7th ed.

In the specific match up of IG vs BA, IG has a few ways they can go depending on the list. BA suck at disabling vehicles at range, so guardsmen with specials can hide in Chimeras safely until it is time to jump out and wipe out a crippling amount of BA in a single turn of shooting. Pure infantry lists can rely on the fact that blast weapons are really out of vogue for BA and drown the advancing BA units in shots. And as I mentioned, you only need a couple good battle cannon hits against meqs to eviscerate a typical BA list.

SW are much like BA except that you have to find a way to neutralize the TWC. Getting shots on their 3+ armor units as opposed to the guy with 2+ leading the unit is pretty important for this. This is a harder task for IG, which is why SW are considered a superior codex than BA, who have no effective means to survive the wall of fire coming from a list like IG or Tau. SW can rely upon TWC to either a) get to assault guaranteed or b) soak and inordinate amount of fire.

Note that against both lists, IG players must be proficient at defending pod alpha strikes, but this is actually quite easy since neither list has access to skyhammer.

So again, the problem with the IG is very similar to that of BA. Neither can field or defend against death stars efficiently. Neither have effective formations. BA are better in assault, but I give the advantage to IG in firepower, which is why I think IG is a better 7th ed codex, such that they both are. But these similarities have nothing to do with specific stats of infantry or special rules of marines or any number of things that people point out as being significant differences between guard and meqs in general. The gulf between BA and C:SM show that meqs themselves are victims just like guardsmen in 7th ed. It's all about the access to power units/formations. Either you have them or you don't.

And near guarantee assaults against IG.

Take out the IG meltas, and you're set.

A LR Crusader or Redeemer will happily solve the infantry issue, too. Roll up, disembark, take out the intervening troops. then charge the vehicles. Since many IG players rely on squadroning their vehicles, it is very easy to take out 200-400 points of armour in a single phase, and then just roflstomp the remaining infantry.

Wait Martel, why are you trying to outrange the Guard? Its one of the few things we are actually semi decent at. What you want to be doing is using your superior speed and manoeuvrability to close the gap really, really fast and get in to close combat. The only things you should be shooting from a distant are the Melta vets.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wait Martel, why are you trying to outrange the Guard? Its one of the few things we are actually semi decent at. What you want to be doing is using your superior speed and manoeuvrability to close the gap really, really fast and get in to close combat. The only things you should be shooting from a distant are the Melta vets.

No, but I can't assault a unit that's in a Chimera. That poses a problem for your plan. Sadly,the game is far from over once CC contact is made due to being unable to consolidate into a new CC. Savvy guard players can still murder BA even after that point.

Also note that lists like SW can do what you describe with far superior units (TWC) and vanilla marines can just teleport into CC after only suffering overwatch. DA can come after you with crazy jink saves. BA are by far the least competent of meq matchups for IG.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wait Martel, why are you trying to outrange the Guard? Its one of the few things we are actually semi decent at. What you want to be doing is using your superior speed and manoeuvrability to close the gap really, really fast and get in to close combat. The only things you should be shooting from a distant are the Melta vets.

No, but I can't assault a unit that's in a Chimera. That poses a problem for your plan. Sadly,the game is far from over once CC contact is made due to being unable to consolidate into a new CC. Savvy guard players can still murder BA even after that point.

In fact, BA is the best to counter Chimera-borne squads in melee as they can surround the tank and choose to wreck it rather than cause an explosion, trapping the transported unit inside and killing it too as the guardsmen can't disembark.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Wait Martel, why are you trying to outrange the Guard? Its one of the few things we are actually semi decent at. What you want to be doing is using your superior speed and manoeuvrability to close the gap really, really fast and get in to close combat. The only things you should be shooting from a distant are the Melta vets.

No, but I can't assault a unit that's in a Chimera. That poses a problem for your plan. Sadly,the game is far from over once CC contact is made due to being unable to consolidate into a new CC. Savvy guard players can still murder BA even after that point.

In fact, BA is the best to counter Chimera-borne squads in melee as they can surround the tank and choose to wreck it rather than cause an explosion, trapping the transported unit inside and killing it too as the guardsmen can't disembark.

While possible, in practice, you rarely enough models left in a squad to execute that maneuver.

The best way to "fix" the Guard is to make the entire codex into formations. You pick formations, which give options, etc. No FOC, just formations.

So, You could take a tank formation, and an infantry formation, and a command formation. The infantry formation could get the special rules, a 'firepower' doctrine which determines weapons carried (and would tie back into the original 'armies' of the IG) and ObjSec. And so on down the line.

Or what-have-you.

 Briancj wrote:
The best way to "fix" the Guard is to make the entire codex into formations. You pick formations, which give options, etc. No FOC, just formations.

So, You could take a tank formation, and an infantry formation, and a command formation. The infantry formation could get the special rules, a 'firepower' doctrine which determines weapons carried (and would tie back into the original 'armies' of the IG) and ObjSec. And so on down the line.

Or what-have-you.

That's one possible fix. Just bringing back lumbering behemoth would help tremendously.

 Briancj wrote:
The best way to "fix" the Guard is to make the entire codex into formations. You pick formations, which give options, etc. No FOC, just formations.

So, You could take a tank formation, and an infantry formation, and a command formation. The infantry formation could get the special rules, a 'firepower' doctrine which determines weapons carried (and would tie back into the original 'armies' of the IG) and ObjSec. And so on down the line.

Or what-have-you.

Eh, I don't think it'd be the best way. Plus, you'd still have to fix the units themselves.

Honestly, formations aren't a bad idea, but the way they're implemented isn't great. If they costed points in addition to the units in the formation, then I'd be happier.

 Briancj wrote:
The best way to "fix" the Guard is to make the entire codex into formations. You pick formations, which give options, etc. No FOC, just formations.

So, You could take a tank formation, and an infantry formation, and a command formation. The infantry formation could get the special rules, a 'firepower' doctrine which determines weapons carried (and would tie back into the original 'armies' of the IG) and ObjSec. And so on down the line.

Or what-have-you.

It'd be flufflier, but there would need to be an option for a Combined Arms formation, for those who like to mix & match.

 Selym wrote:
It'd be flufflier

No it wouldn't. It would about as fluffy as it currently is.

there would need to be an option for a Combined Arms formation, for those who like to mix & match.

Kind of like...the FoC?

 Blacksails wrote:

 Selym wrote:
It'd be flufflier

No it wouldn't. It would about as fluffy as it currently is.

there would need to be an option for a Combined Arms formation, for those who like to mix & match.

Kind of like...the FoC?

More like a CAD.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Selym wrote:
It'd be flufflier

No it wouldn't. It would about as fluffy as it currently is.

there would need to be an option for a Combined Arms formation, for those who like to mix & match.

Kind of like...the FoC?

More like a CAD.

More like:

1 Command Block
2 Infantry Blocks
1 Artillery Block
...

Designed to fit under 2,000 pts, preferably.

I say fluffier, because the IG operates in monotype blocks - tank groups, infantry groups, artillery groups etc. Then they get partially merged with eachother to create balanced detachments.
Like in Epic Armageddon, where you get Pure Russ battlegroups, Pure Infantry battlegroups, etc. Each battlegroup can attach a small number of units that would normally have their own battlegroup.

 Selym wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Selym wrote:
It'd be flufflier

No it wouldn't. It would about as fluffy as it currently is.

there would need to be an option for a Combined Arms formation, for those who like to mix & match.

Kind of like...the FoC?

More like a CAD.

More like:

1 Command Block
2 Infantry Blocks
1 Artillery Block
...

Designed to fit under 2,000 pts, preferably.

I say fluffier, because the IG operates in monotype blocks - tank groups, infantry groups, artillery groups etc. Then they get partially merged with eachother to create balanced detachments.
Like in Epic Armageddon, where you get Pure Russ battlegroups, Pure Infantry battlegroups, etc. Each battlegroup can attach a small number of units that would normally have their own battlegroup.

So a Decurion-style mega-detachment? Well, if something, the IG is going to receive one of these, that's for sure. Or, if your gaming group is OK with some rulebending, then you can do it even now with the not-so-Apocalypse Formations from the various Warzone books.

Eh, probably.

But knowing our luck all we will get from it will be a once per game reroll of all 1's to hit and a free Infantry Section

 master of ordinance wrote:
But knowing our luck all we will get from it will be a once per game reroll of all 1's to hit and a free Infantry Section

If we're really unlucky, we'll get something akin to the DE formation.

I'd say that with the current rules and meta, they could halve the cost of everything expect the vendettas and valkyries, and it would still be tough to beat many armies.

The least we could get is a "buy 2 get 3rd for free".

That being said, I think giving the officers non-random rules, not dependent on dice, would be a good start.

 triplegrim wrote:
I'd say that with the current rules and meta, they could halve the cost of everything expect the vendettas and valkyries, and it would still be tough to beat many armies.

The least we could get is a "buy 2 get 3rd for free".

That being said, I think giving the officers non-random rules, not dependent on dice, would be a good start.

The effectiveness of the Vendetta is vastly over-estimated and thusly over-costed.
I use around 2 vendettas every game I play, and I can tell you that they are not as versatile as people make them out to be. 6 transportation capacity makes them essentially unusable for transportation. Company command squads and specialist squads are the only truly viable options. When factoring in the opportunity cost of putting those units into the vendetta, the situation becomes even more undesirable as they can be completely wiped out by scattering, are unable to issue orders, and cannot come in until at least turn 2.

Within the current meta, 3 twin linked lascannons do much less damage than most people will admit or realize. Monstrous creatures have more wounds and are not really affected by the strength of the lascannon, as volume of fire is more important in taking them down. AV 14 is increasingly a problem for the IG to deal with as it becomes more ubiquitous. Monoliths, and Land Raiders require 5s to glance and 6s to pen. In order to get an explodes result you would need to hit, then pen with a 6, and then roll an explodes result on the damage table (another 6). The chances of that are much higher than 1 in 36 and are an unreliable way of taking out an enemy vehicle. Take into account that this vehicle can only come on after the 1st turn, and its utility is reduced even more. Its area of expertise is ironically better suited to shooting down other vehicle flyers. All in all I would take an Avenger over a vendetta 1000 times.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:
I'd say that with the current rules and meta, they could halve the cost of everything expect the vendettas and valkyries, and it would still be tough to beat many armies.

The least we could get is a "buy 2 get 3rd for free".

That being said, I think giving the officers non-random rules, not dependent on dice, would be a good start.

The effectiveness of the Vendetta is vastly over-estimated and thusly over-costed.
I use around 2 vendettas every game I play, and I can tell you that they are not as versatile as people make them out to be. 6 transportation capacity makes them essentially unusable for transportation. Company command squads and specialist squads are the only truly viable options. When factoring in the opportunity cost of putting those units into the vendetta, the situation becomes even more undesirable as they can be completely wiped out by scattering, are unable to issue orders, and cannot come in until at least turn 2.

Within the current meta, 3 twin linked lascannons do much less damage than most people will admit or realize. Monstrous creatures have more wounds and are not really affected by the strength of the lascannon, as volume of fire is more important in taking them down. AV 14 is increasingly a problem for the IG to deal with as it becomes more ubiquitous. Monoliths, and Land Raiders require 5s to glance and 6s to pen. In order to get an explodes result you would need to hit, then pen with a 6, and then roll an explodes result on the damage table (another 6). The chances of that are much higher than 1 in 36 and are an unreliable way of taking out an enemy vehicle. Take into account that this vehicle can only come on after the 1st turn, and its utility is reduced even more. Its area of expertise is ironically better suited to shooting down other vehicle flyers. All in all I would take an Avenger over a vendetta 1000 times.

Pretty much. I was advised to get some Vendettas for my army after my last game saw me stomped by a Grey Knights player whom used the Nemesis formation in a 1.5K game and dropped a Stormraven, 2 5 man Paladin squads, a chaptermaster (or whatever he is called), a inquisitor and some power armoured dudes on my flank and a Dreadknight on my other. After he had stomped me another player commented that I may just need to get some flyers.
Whilst I agreed with him the prospect of a stupidly pricey unit with only 3 TL Lascannons and BS 3 does not really appeal to me, although the chassis is at least survivable owing to it being a flyer.

But look at it:
You are paying through your nose to get what is essentially a lightly armoured flyer with rubbish ballistics skill and only three highly dubious weapons to show for itself. Not what I would call a useful vehicle.

Out of interest, how do you think the vendetta compares to a Ravager with 3 Dark Lances?

They're both fast (sort of) vehicles and both pack 3 anti-vehicle guns with similar profiles.

The vendetta costs 45pts more, and gets you:
- +1 AV on front and sides
- Slightly better weapons
- Better hit rate (both normally and when snapshotting)
- Can target both ground units and fliers at full BS
- Most ground units can only snapshot at you
- Can move more than 6" and still fire all weapons
- 6 transport capacity (yey...)

You lose out on:
- Can't fire on first game turn
- Reliant on reserve rolls
- Night Vision
- Can't claim cover from buildings and such.
- Worse against AV14
- Might struggle to get into position when not hovering

Thoughts?

 vipoid wrote:
Out of interest, how do you think the vendetta compares to a Ravager with 3 Dark Lances?

They're both fast (sort of) vehicles and both pack 3 anti-vehicle guns with similar profiles.

The vendetta costs 45pts more, and gets you:
- +1 AV on front and sides
- Slightly better weapons
- Better hit rate (both normally and when snapshotting)
- Can target both ground units and fliers at full BS
- Most ground units can only snapshot at you
- Can move more than 6" and still fire all weapons
- 6 transport capacity (yey...)

You lose out on:
- Can't fire on first game turn
- Reliant on reserve rolls
- Night Vision
- Can't claim cover from buildings and such.
- Worse against AV14
- Might struggle to get into position when not hovering

Thoughts?

The Vendetta is still terrible for what it is and what it costs but the Dark Eldar unit is even worse :/

 vipoid wrote:
Out of interest, how do you think the vendetta compares to a Ravager with 3 Dark Lances?

They're both fast (sort of) vehicles and both pack 3 anti-vehicle guns with similar profiles.

The vendetta costs 45pts more, and gets you:
- +1 AV on front and sides
- Slightly better weapons
- Better hit rate (both normally and when snapshotting)
- Can target both ground units and fliers at full BS
- Most ground units can only snapshot at you
- Can move more than 6" and still fire all weapons
- 6 transport capacity (yey...)

You lose out on:
- Can't fire on first game turn
- Reliant on reserve rolls
- Night Vision
- Can't claim cover from buildings and such.
- Worse against AV14
- Might struggle to get into position when not hovering

Thoughts?

The fact that the Vendetta isn't in on the first turn, and possibly not until turn 4, is what keeps me from typically fielding them, and when I do, keeps me from fielding anything less than 3 (and usually not in friendly games). That is such a huge downside for a unit like that in the IG army that, no matter how otherwise powerful it might be, will always make you think twice about taking it. At least from my perspective.

 Selym wrote:
Huh.

I haven't seen anyone win with Orks since that one time in early 6th, when someone tailored.

Orks have plenty of tournament lists. Doing so well as to get 9th at LVO and even win a tournament fairly recently

 Vaktathi wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Out of interest, how do you think the vendetta compares to a Ravager with 3 Dark Lances?

They're both fast (sort of) vehicles and both pack 3 anti-vehicle guns with similar profiles.

The vendetta costs 45pts more, and gets you:
- +1 AV on front and sides
- Slightly better weapons
- Better hit rate (both normally and when snapshotting)
- Can target both ground units and fliers at full BS
- Most ground units can only snapshot at you
- Can move more than 6" and still fire all weapons
- 6 transport capacity (yey...)

You lose out on:
- Can't fire on first game turn
- Reliant on reserve rolls
- Night Vision
- Can't claim cover from buildings and such.
- Worse against AV14
- Might struggle to get into position when not hovering

Thoughts?

The fact that the Vendetta isn't in on the first turn, and possibly not until turn 4, is what keeps me from typically fielding them, and when I do, keeps me from fielding anything less than 3 (and usually not in friendly games). That is such a huge downside for a unit like that in the IG army that, no matter how otherwise powerful it might be, will always make you think twice about taking it. At least from my perspective.

Adding in a Master of the Fleet gets you a +1 on the roll but at the cost of not forcing a -1 on your opponent.

And it's extremely unreliable

And dies far to easily

I've recently been playing Space Wolves and my is it refreshing after playing IG. I can actually win games without the need for ally shenanigans or sheer luck of the dice rolls...

I may have to shelve the guard for a while until they see their new codex (whenever the hell that may be).

Nothing wrong with shelving an army, or parts of an army - that's the luxury of having more stuff.