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 Ashiraya wrote:

Well to be fair, with Stealth, they don't really need absurd attack power. Let's say we price them at... 9 ppm? 8? 10? In that ballpark. That's much cheaper than Tactical Marines, so why should they have more firepower?

Because you still need a reason to bring them in the first place.

Yoyoyo wrote:
This is a horrible discussion. Guard firepower derives from artillery, tanks, and massed heavy weapons, not drop troops.

Yeah, how dare those Guard players want drop troops that actually function.

Yoyoyo wrote:

The whole point of a DS troop is to exploit position. They are a force multiplier, not the force.

Unless you're marines. But, I guess that's fine because... reasons.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Some people are trying to rework a finesse unit into a brute force unit. That's why they have inferior firepower and survivability. You're not supposed to brainlesssly smash them into your enemy, you're supposed to exploit assymetry.

Hey, kids - when you don't have a coherent argument, just spout a load of gibberish instead.

 Blacksails wrote:
Not if you're playing a drop troop regiment.

If you've noticed, they have special rules to help adjust to the different playstyle!

Tempestus guns fire at STR X or Rending, they have one Warlord trait reducing scatter/rerolling reserves, and another extending the range of static Hellguns.

Elysians have a boatload of special rules as well as a different force org.

These guys aren't an IG elite, though!

Vipoid here's a quote for you. "According to Sun Tzu, all warfare is asymmetric because the principle is to exploit an enemy's strength while attacking his weaknesses." Maybe that will help you understand such "gibberish" involved in a wargame.

I'm out of this garbage thread, good riddance.

Yoyoyo wrote:
If you've noticed, they have special rules to help adjust to the different playstyle!

If we're going to get snarky...

If you've noticed, the discussion has pointed out repeatedly that these rules are underwhelming and the units that have them doubly so.

Hence the discussion in the first place and the ideas to improve them.

Tempestus guns fire at STR X or Rending, they have one Warlord trait reducing scatter/rerolling reserves, and another extending them range of static Hellguns.

Which, if you've been reading the discussion, is considered to be universally underwhelming, if not outright bad. Also, are you seriously using a random 1/6 outcome as a benefit the army has?

Elysians have a boatload of special rules as well as a different force org.

And are also considered to be underwhelming at best, which, you know, is kind of what's being discussed here. Buffing them and such.

These guys aren't an IG elite, though!

They kind of are though. Stormies certainly are, and drop troop regiments are few and far between while also being smaller and more specialized, on top of generally stricter recruitment and higher standards of training.

Sounds elite to me.

Yoyoyo wrote:
This is a horrible discussion. Guard firepower derives from artillery, tanks, and massed heavy weapons, not drop troops.

And Space Marine firepower derives from tactical superiority, not throwing Drop Pods full of suicidal Sternguard at a target.
Yet...

The whole point of a DS troop is to exploit position. They are a force multiplier, not the force.

The whole point of a DS troop is to exploit position and to be able to have the firepower to exploit that position.

Some people are trying to rework a finesse unit into a brute force unit. That's why they have inferior firepower and survivability.

Er no. They have "inferior firepower" because the statline for their basic weapon has remained more or less untouched as long as I've been playing Guard. The only change it has seen is going from S3 AP5 in the Doctrines book to being dropped to S3 AP3 in Robin Cruddace's pants-on-head-ridiculous book that saw them go from 10 ppm to 16 ppm for simply including the AP3, the Deep Strike and the "Special Operations" rules(where you picked a mission and it granted a bonus to each Stormtrooper squad).

A finesse unit would reward you for utilizing it in a proper manner. There is nothing finesse about Scions as it stands. It basically is a case of load them up with special weapons and DS them into range, hoping they can take out something worth their points value before they die horribly.

You're not supposed to brainlesssly smash them into your enemy, you're supposed to exploit asymmetry.

If that were the case, they'd still retain Infiltrate. Stormtroopers/Scions were never meant to be simply "drop troops". They were troops that operated ahead of the main line, with no real support from the main infantry body.

Like I said, at this point we might as well just remove Deep Strike from them and try to cut away as much of the fat from the profile as possible.

If you have an issue, make them better at the latter -- not the former!!!

Simply put, "exploiting asymmetry" is not really something a tabletop wargame will be able to properly showcase. Not when we are talking about a unit which actually is on the battlefield--unless we bring back something like the Ranger Sabotage Table that Alaitoc had in the old Craftworlds supplement.


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Yoyoyo wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
[Not if you're playing a drop troop regiment.

If you've noticed, they have special rules to help adjust to the different playstyle!

Tempestus guns fire at STR X or Rending, they have one Warlord trait reducing scatter/rerolling reserves, and another extending them range of static Hellguns.

Oh goody, if I roll a 4 or a 5 for a Warlord trait, and use two separate Orders on two separate units, and I'm playing Tempestus from their $50 supplement I can have Hellguns that aren't totally awful!

By the by?
Drill Chief's "extending range of static Hellguns" has two caveats: It requires you to be within 12" of the Warlord and not have moved in the preceding Movement phase.
The Grav-Chute Commandos Warlord trait as well is hideously worded.

All friendly units chosen from Codex: Militarum Tempestus reroll failed Reserve Rolls if arriving by Deep Strike. Furthermore, all units in the same platoon as the Warlord only scatter D6" rather than 2D6".

I'll let that wording sink in for a bit.

Elysians have a boatload of special rules as well as a different force org.

These guys aren't an IG elite, though!

Yeah, they're better than an IG Elite choice in many cases.

 vipoid wrote:
Because you still need a reason to bring them in the first place.

The same reason you'd bring Vanguard instead of Assault Marines. Bloodbrides instead of Wyches.

They're an elite alternative.

 Blacksails wrote:
Hence the discussion in the first place and the ideas to improve them.

This discussion involves people who don't understand the Divination table, who want to put 600pts of free plasma on a 130pt drop unit, who will bemoan the Primaris T3 without mentioning his 5++, bro-fisting 4++ MinPriest buddy or slotless HQ status, who consider DS worthless. who will drown you in quote storms rather than admit a bad idea, who don't understand how 2000 year old principles of war relate to a wargame, and who worst of all lack a sense of humour.

Sorry dude -- it's my bad for getting snarky but I've had it with this thread. No offense meant to the more sensible members here.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Because you still need a reason to bring them in the first place.

The same reason you'd bring Vanguard instead of Assault Marines. Bloodbrides instead of Wyches.

They're an elite alternative.

I think Bloodbrides are a fitting example, because no one ever uses them either. Much like Scions, they're Elites in name only and have neither the stats nor the weapons to back that up in any meaningful way.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Because you still need a reason to bring them in the first place.

The same reason you'd bring Vanguard instead of Assault Marines.Bloodbrides instead of Wyches.

They're an elite alternative.

Not really. They're an overpriced "alternative" whose only (partially) redeeming feature is a S3 AP3 weapon and whose only competition for Elite slots, currently, are overpriced Ogryns, overpriced Ratlings, and Wyrdvane Psykers.

Hmm, I'd forgotten just how depressing our elite slot is.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Because you still need a reason to bring them in the first place.

The same reason you'd bring Vanguard instead of Assault Marines.Bloodbrides instead of Wyches.

They're an elite alternative.

Not really. They're an overpriced "alternative" whose only (partially) redeeming feature is a S3 AP3 weapon and whose only competition for Elite slots, currently, are overpriced Ogryns, overpriced Ratlings, and Wyrdvane Psykers.

Bloodbrides are in themselves too weak, but they still reflect my point. They have a job to do, even if they do not do it sufficiently well.

Look to the Vanguard, then, or Immortals.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
Hence the discussion in the first place and the ideas to improve them.

This discussion involves people who don't understand the Divination table,

Or people who don't bring Psykers. But sure.

who want to put 600pts of free plasma on a 130pt drop unit,

Speaking as the person whose idea that was, I also specifically stated that I want to remove the Deep Strike rule from Scions or tie it to a Valkyrie DT.

So please. Keep talking about people who "don't understand" things like the basic principles of reading.

who will bemoan the Primaris T3 without mentioning his 5++, bro-fisting 4++ MinPriest buddy or slotless HQ status,

who consider DS worthless.

For a T3 4+ save unit that costs how many points?
Yeah. DS is worthless in the Guard book.

who will drown you in quote storms rather than admit a bad idea,

Watson, I would suggest you read back a bit further. I put down that the best way to balance is to start with the patently ridiculous and go down from there.
Don't like the idea? Help refine it instead of just making snarky remarks like you did.

who don't understand how 2000 year old principles of war relate to a wargame,

Oooh, I love where this is going. An appeal to antiquity.

and who worst of all lack a sense of humour.

It's better to seem to have no sense of humor than it is to come blasting out of the gate with snark.

Sorry dude -- it's my bad for getting snarky but I've had it with this thread. No offense meant to the more sensible members here.

Yeah, no.
You came in with snark yesterday before any of this discussion really took off in the direction that yourself and Ashiraya, the resident Space Marine defender, have dragged it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
You came in with snark yesterday before any of this discussion really took off in the direction that yourself and Ashiraya, the resident Space Marine defender, have dragged it.

You come in with your S7 AP2 assault 4 hotshots and you label me as 'resident defender'?

When I see something broken, I will point out that it is, whether it is in an echo chamber or not.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Because you still need a reason to bring them in the first place.

The same reason you'd bring Vanguard instead of Assault Marines.Bloodbrides instead of Wyches.

They're an elite alternative.

Not really. They're an overpriced "alternative" whose only (partially) redeeming feature is a S3 AP3 weapon and whose only competition for Elite slots, currently, are overpriced Ogryns, overpriced Ratlings, and Wyrdvane Psykers.

Bloodbrides are in themselves too weak, but they still reflect my point. They have a job to do, even if they do not do it sufficiently well.

Look to the Vanguard, then, or Immortals.

Vanguard don't have to compete for Elite slots anymore. A First Company Task Force formation made up of purely Vanguard Squads can bring anywhere from 3 Vanguard Squads to 5 Vanguard Squads, all for the price of a single Auxiliary slot and the matching points(95 points per squad of 5 models without Jump Packs or any upgrades--110 pts per Jump Pack equipped squad of 5 models)

Those Vanguard gain Fear, Fearless, Preferred Enemy against a single nominated unit, and cause enemy units to subtract 2 points of Leadership while within 12" of at least three units from the Formation.
That, mind you, is in addition to any benefit that their Chapter Tactics would give them.

Additionally? Immortals are Troops choices for Necrons. They have been for two iterations of their Codex now. Not sure what context you're trying to really showcase them in, aside from them being a "better" option than Necron Warriors maybe?


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 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
You came in with snark yesterday before any of this discussion really took off in the direction that yourself and Ashiraya, the resident Space Marine defender, have dragged it.

You come in with your S7 AP2 assault 4 hotshots and you label me as 'resident defender'?

When I see something broken, I will point out that it is, whether it is in an echo chamber or not.

I've seen your posts time and time again about how hard the poor Bolter Marines have it in basically any context where someone has mentioned how underpowered the Lasgun is without once really making an acknowledgement that while yeah, Bolter Marines have a hard time? Their big brothers the Sternguard sure as hell don't have that hard time.
So yeah, I do label you as the "resident defender" of Space Marines.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
You came in with snark yesterday before any of this discussion really took off in the direction that yourself and Ashiraya, the resident Space Marine defender, have dragged it.

You come in with your S7 AP2 assault 4 hotshots and you label me as 'resident defender'?

When I see something broken, I will point out that it is, whether it is in an echo chamber or not.

on an elite unit that has paper thin armor. When at the same time the basic weapon of choice for marines are grav guns, for eldar melta guns, pseudo rending weapons and str6 multi shot weapons etc. a str 7 4 shot weapon on a unit that dies after the turn it shot, would not break the game.

The other aspect is, even if we did get that, 40 S7 AP2 shots would be considered pathetic after a month or two.

SITREP:

-We've had arguments for 40 Str 7 Ap 2 shots, which is silly.
-We've had arguments for making Stormies even more useless, by giving them Ap4 and a points drop. It may be balanced, but there'd be feth all reason to use them.
-We've had arguments that they are fin e as they are. Which can be mathematically proven wrong.
-We've had arguments that the IG don't do drop troops (wat).

-----------------------------

Stormtrooper:

*IG statline
*4+ Armour Save
*Army-wide +1 to cover on all infantry (not vehicles)
*Deepstrike
*Infiltrate
*Frag + Krak grenades
*May assault out of Deep Strike and Infiltrate

Hellgun:
Range 18" / Str 4 / Ap 3 / Assault 2

Options:
-Any Stoormtrooper may take:
.......Plasmagun (10 ppm)
.......Meltagun (5 ppm)
.......Assault Blade Which gives +1 strength, and +1 attack (?? ppm)

Hey there was a "Gets Hot" in that 40 S7 AP2 shots, thankyouverymuch.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Hey there was a "Gets Hot" in that 40 S7 AP2 shots, thankyouverymuch.

True, true

If it was a once-only firing mode that drained the ammunition of the hellguns, it'd probably be more balanced.

 Selym wrote:

Stormtrooper:

*IG statline
*4+ Cover Save
*Army-wide +1 to cover on all infantry (not vehicles)
*Deepstrike
*Infiltrate
*Frag + Krak grenades
*May assault out of Deep Strike and Infiltrate

Hellgun:
Range 18" / Str 4 / Ap 3 / Assault 2

Options:
-Any Stoormtrooper may take:
.......Plasmagun (10 ppm)
.......Meltagun (5 ppm)
.......Assault Blade Which gives +1 strength, and +1 attack (?? ppm)

I could get behind something like that.

My one suggestion though would be to replace 'may assaul out of deep strike' with 'may reroll the deep strike result'.

If any unit should be able to assault out of deep strike... it probably shouldn't be ours.

In contrast, rerolling the deep strike result seems reasonable for an elite unit which will often be packing short-range weapons. Especially when our army lacks stuff like Drop Pods.

 Selym wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Hey there was a "Gets Hot" in that 40 S7 AP2 shots, thankyouverymuch.

True, true

If it was a once-only firing mode that drained the ammunition of the hellguns, it'd probably be more balanced.

Even then, it would probably be a bit much. Maybe if it remained 18" Assault 2?

Whoopsie, I meant 4+ armour, not cover on the Stormie profile. Edited it out.

18" Assault 2 Str 7 Ap 2 once-only firing mode would be interesting.

Would it need to have Gets Hot as well, do you think?

My reasoning on the DS thing was that if any army should be re-rolling DS, it shouldn't be the IG. Hammer 'n all.
They're more common and supposedly less elite than Tactical Marines in fluff, minus equipment.

Assaulting out of it made some sense to me, as they're the Royal Marines in spehss.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Would it need to have Gets Hot as well, do you think?

yea, probably.

 Selym wrote:
My reasoning on the DS thing was that if any army should be re-rolling DS, it shouldn't be the IG. Hammer 'n all.

Does that still hold true for elite drop units though?

I mean, IIRC, they could do this in 5th.

 Selym wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Hey there was a "Gets Hot" in that 40 S7 AP2 shots, thankyouverymuch.

True, true

If it was a once-only firing mode that drained the ammunition of the hellguns, it'd probably be more balanced.

Like I said in the follow-on post with SDF Farsight?
I'm of the opinion that game design should start with the patently ridiculous and aim to tone it down gradually. Don't start weak, start strong and see what you can pare down until it gets to be weak.


The point of "draining the ammunition" is an interesting one and reminds me of an old FW Apocalypse book's scenario, wherein it's an army of Defenders(made as a normal army list) versus an army of Attackers consisting of 75% FMCs, GMCs, or MCs and 25% of a "standard" army...

The defender infantry units could fire all of their weapons twice if they stayed still, but if they rolled a 1 or a 2 on the second time they ran out of ammunition for the entirety of the game.

MAYBE we could get this rule for Guard, and a "Resupply Point" rule for Chimera APCs?
So, potentially, a Guard Platoon could be putting out a high amount of firepower but could run out if they do not get within a certain range of a Chimera APC--or something like they have to spend a turn rearming, so can't fire during their next turn?

THAT. Is a very interesting idea indeed.

@ Yoyoyo
Really, you feel that a 4 shot S 4 AP 3 weapon would be massively overpowered and that all we need to do is reduce the points cost and make them AP 4? Wow. Your logic astounds me. Right now I would second going for the most stupidly pants on head overpowered choice there is for our Storm Troops. It is about time the Guard where able to hold their own.

@ Ashiraya
You say that we in the Guard whine about nothing and yet you complain about how bad Bolter Marines are. May I remind you that point for point Bolter Marines are far better than Guardsmen, come with better equipment, have more survivability and superior firepower?

@ Vipoid
Wait, we have an Elites section?

 master of ordinance wrote:
@ Yoyoyo
Really, you feel that a 4 shot S 4 AP 3 weapon would be massively overpowered and that all we need to do is reduce the points cost and make them AP 4? Wow. Your logic astounds me. Right now I would second going for the most stupidly pants on head overpowered choice there is for our Storm Troops. It is about time the Guard where able to hold their own.

Tbh I think it should stay AP3.... Preferably S4, but all in all I think they "have" to be "24 max range. Main reason all the units they are designed to take on can kill them before they come into range. 24" S4 AP3 Assault 2 wouldn't be too unreasonable would it? Also let them keep frfsrf?

I would take S5 or S6 over AP3 every time. The ability for Stomies to hunt MCs is gold.

 master of ordinance wrote:

You say that we in the Guard whine about nothing a

It appears that it is now my turn to ask for a quote.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I would take S5 or S6 over AP3 every time. The ability for Stomies to hunt MCs is gold.

Tbh I've never view them as units that should really be hurting MC. Imo opinion they should simply be better at killing infantry, not larger targets.