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mercury14 wrote:
By the way, this codex made BA, SW, CSM, and IG look like complete garbage. They're obsolete now. Going back to the OP, yes the codex is too much because of that reason.

Anyone disagree?

I would argue that CSM's are on a level of 'well below even garbage', especially compared to BA's & SW's.
We still don't even have a deathstar crutch to lean on that doesn't require allying in a metric tonne of Daemons.

As a Dark Eldar player, it appears neigh-impossible to beat Space Marines that can now do MSU much better than we can. :/

I also play Eldar but.... How are the Dark Kin supposed to compete when it's 1850 of fragile elves vs 2400 of tough SM and 30 free obsec hull points?

The company formation is powerful, several hundred free points always are. It just looks like more of the same though. SMs win tournaments primarily through msu spam. Every turn you trade your opponent a rhino, drop pod or 5 man squad for 1 to 2 VPs. You will never do serious damage to their army. If you can continue this pace for 5 to 6 turns you win. Trading pieces of your army a few units at a time for a couple of measly points a turn is IG work (no offense intended grunts).

These new formations by & large seem like a continuation of that. I wanted, & I know many other SM players desired a SM army that kicked butt. I wanted dev squads as shooty powerful as Dark Reapers and Assault Terminators as nasty as Wraiths. We'd all gladly have payed for the appropriate points increase too. Instead we are now able to continue the trade of underpowered, lack luster units for victory points. Please continue to enjoy xenos players, because win, lose or draw you will devistate all SM armys before you.

 Red Marine wrote:
The company formation is powerful, several hundred free points always are. It just looks like more of the same though. SMs win tournaments primarily through msu spam. Every turn you trade your opponent a rhino, drop pod or 5 man squad for 1 to 2 VPs. You will never do serious damage to their army. If you can continue this pace for 5 to 6 turns you win. Trading pieces of your army a few units at a time for a couple of measly points a turn is IG work (no offense intended grunts).

These new formations by & large seem like a continuation of that. I wanted, & I know many other SM players desired a SM army that kicked butt. I wanted dev squads as shooty powerful as Dark Reapers and Assault Terminators as nasty as Wraiths. We'd all gladly have been for the appropriate points increase too. Instead we are now able to continue the trade of underpowered, lack luster units for victory points. Please continue to enjoy xenos players, because win, lose or draw you will devistate all SM armys before you.

SM are supposed to be elite. GW published rules in deep opposition to their fluff, making them the best tank spam army.

Sorry IG, you've been beaten at your own game because you pay points for your tanks. Suckers.

 Red Marine wrote:
The company formation is powerful, several hundred free points always are. It just looks like more of the same though. SMs win tournaments primarily through msu spam. Every turn you trade your opponent a rhino, drop pod or 5 man squad for 1 to 2 VPs. You will never do serious damage to their army. If you can continue this pace for 5 to 6 turns you win. Trading pieces of your army a few units at a time for a couple of measly points a turn is IG work (no offense intended grunts).

These new formations by & large seem like a continuation of that. I wanted, & I know many other SM players desired a SM army that kicked butt. I wanted dev squads as shooty powerful as Dark Reapers and Assault Terminators as nasty as Wraiths. We'd all gladly have payed for the appropriate points increase too. Instead we are now able to continue the trade of underpowered, lack luster units for victory points. Please continue to enjoy xenos players, because win, lose or draw you will devistate all SM armys before you.

Yeah, this is my concern. I like the idea that Space Marines are elite warriors with top-notch gear and are ready to rapidly deploy or redeploy. While the idea of getting free transports is good for that, it translates in gameplay to more of the same plus ObSec spam. It's the definition of "win because you showed up" (the actual games are more complicated than that - it's just an overall description of the fundamental strategy of such armies).

Personally, I was hoping something like "after seeing your opponent's army list, but before choosing the mission, you may swap any wargear in this detachment for another piece of wargear with an equal or lower points cost", allowing Marines to always be equipped with "the best" items - at the cost where most players will always just buy the most expensive items for their squads.

Epic Multi-Quote!

mercury14 wrote:By the way, this codex made BA, SW, CSM, and IG look like complete garbage. They're obsolete now. Going back to the OP, yes the codex is too much because of that reason.

Anyone disagree?

Yes. I disagree. I won't deny that the new Marine codex has eclipsed those codexes you mentioned in terms of power, alone with most of the other remaining 6th edition codexes (barring Tau).

However, I would argue that this is a problem with external balance and the need to bring the top codexes down somewhat in power, along with giving the lower-tier codexes a boost. But, as I and others have pointed out, the new formation is neither broken nor unbeatable.

CT GAMER wrote:With the current state of the game as a whole "on 11" and rising, who cares?

When they fix Eldar maybe I'll start to feel guilty...

This era of 40k is about cheese, broken combos, power gaming and min/maxing.

Wish it wasn't, but the formation and ally rules ( to name a few things) have given cheesmongers a green light to do what they do.

So don't sweat it, just roll with it.

Next edition maybe they (GW) will come to their senses.

Maybe not...

Somebody gets it. Warhammer 40k has always been a fundamentally unbalanced game, with it being the players' responsibility (for better or worse) to impose some sort of balance between the various armies and factions.

I wouldn't bet on things improving, though. This is GW we're talking about...

Red Marine wrote: The company formation is powerful, several hundred free points always are. It just looks like more of the same though. SMs win tournaments primarily through msu spam. Every turn you trade your opponent a rhino, drop pod or 5 man squad for 1 to 2 VPs. You will never do serious damage to their army. If you can continue this pace for 5 to 6 turns you win. Trading pieces of your army a few units at a time for a couple of measly points a turn is IG work (no offense intended grunts).

These new formations by & large seem like a continuation of that. I wanted, & I know many other SM players desired a SM army that kicked butt. I wanted dev squads as shooty powerful as Dark Reapers and Assault Terminators as nasty as Wraiths. We'd all gladly have payed for the appropriate points increase too. Instead we are now able to continue the trade of underpowered, lack luster units for victory points. Please continue to enjoy xenos players, because win, lose or draw you will devistate all SM armys before you.

That's the trade-off with MSU. You're giving up survivability for taking objectives. And hey, it wins tournaments.

I do apologize that Space Marines are neither the invulnerable gods of the Black Library novels nor the Mary Sue movie marines. However, anyone who looks at the new codex and thinks that the new Space Marines are underpowered is either blind or illiterate.

mercury14 wrote:As a Dark Eldar player, it appears neigh-impossible to beat Space Marines that can now do MSU much better than we can. :/

I also play Eldar but.... How are the Dark Kin supposed to compete when it's 1850 of fragile elves vs 2400 of tough SM and 30 free obsec hull points?

Simple. Crack open their METAL BOXES/soda cans with Darklight weapons. Drown the pathetic loyalist dogs in poison. Assault whatever remains. And when in doubt, spread the objectives out.

Free transport sound like an excuse to sale more models...
Running away from the fantasy,it feels,every day more,as profit is poisoning the whole fluff/game design compartment...
What a shame...

Bar the list being Illegal (As pointed out, you have to take 1 Aux per Demi-Company), it's just bloody tactical marines.

What are you going to do if you roll Kill Points?

Hell, why should Eldar or Necrons care about your ObSec? Tabling an army of 5 man tact squads isn't exactly hard. Especially when you have NO anti-flier, anti-Super Heavy or anti-MC ANYWHERE (Woo a few meltas and grav in 5 man tact squads? Scaryyyy....)

I've said this in pretty much an Identical thread a day or so ago:

Unless your gibbets have ObSec, No one is worried about the double demi-company.

Izural wrote:
Bar the list being Illegal (As pointed out, you have to take 1 Aux per Demi-Company), it's just bloody tactical marines.

What are you going to do if you roll Kill Points?

Hell, why should Eldar or Necrons care about your ObSec? Tabling an army of 5 man tact squads isn't exactly hard. Especially when you have NO anti-flier, anti-Super Heavy or anti-MC ANYWHERE (Woo a few meltas and grav in 5 man tact squads? Scaryyyy....)

I've said this in pretty much an Identical thread a day or so ago:

Unless your gibbets have ObSec, No one is worried about the double demi-company.

This. It seems like every other week there is a "tac marines suck hard and you should uninstall life.exe if you use them". And other than drop pods, people say the same about the sm transports. Now it's those things in mass, and people lose their minds. Still just a ton of tacs and their thin metal boxes. Can it be solid, competetive, and even decently powerful? Yes. Is it ott op broken cheese? Not even close.

Wait a few months and it will be back to "cent star and grav bikes or gtfu and l2p newb"

Holy Jesus fething hell.

I can't wait to see what we Tau get.

Watch us get a formation that lets us deploy off the board and shoot from 30 meters away if we take 6 XV-88. And then get free marker drones for every broadside taken. The broadsides can be taken in squads of 6 for half the point cost if in this formation.

Keep in mind this formation isn't a CAD... So they don't have objective secured.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Keep in mind this formation isn't a CAD... So they don't have objective secured.

Keep in mind that the demi company (the formation everyone is talking about) grants OS to all units in it.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Simple. Crack open their METAL BOXES/soda cans with Darklight weapons. Drown the pathetic loyalist dogs in poison. Assault whatever remains. And when in doubt, spread the objectives out.

I'm trying to figure out the "simple" part of this. It takes an average of 7 dark lance shots to wreck a rhino. That's 300 points of ravagers or 350 points of raiders to destroy a 35 point vehicle.

As a Space Marine player I'd be jubilent seeing you waste that much firepower.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Simple. Crack open their METAL BOXES/soda cans with Darklight weapons. Drown the pathetic loyalist dogs in poison. Assault whatever remains. And when in doubt, spread the objectives out.

I'm trying to figure out the "simple" part of this. It takes an average of 7 dark lance shots to wreck a rhino. That's 300 points of ravagers or 350 points of raiders to destroy a 35 point vehicle.

As a Space Marine player I'd be jubilent seeing you waste that much firepower.

Be responsible and crack them with grotesques...

Same situation, you're spending several magnitudes more in points and opportunity to kill one 35 point transport a turn, and there's ten transports.

And that's just rhinos. Grots can't even hurt pods.

 Gamgee wrote:
Holy Jesus fething hell.

I can't wait to see what we Tau get.

Watch us get a formation that lets us deploy off the board and shoot from 30 meters away if we take 6 XV-88. And then get free marker drones for every broadside taken. The broadsides can be taken in squads of 6 for half the point cost if in this formation.

Well, they aren't Eldar or Space Marines so a buff is not a sure thing (sadly, I'm saying that seriously). Just pray you don't get the Dark Eldar treatment. At least, you have almost no named HQs to remove

 Talys wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Holy Jesus fething hell.

I can't wait to see what we Tau get.

Watch us get a formation that lets us deploy off the board and shoot from 30 meters away if we take 6 XV-88. And then get free marker drones for every broadside taken. The broadsides can be taken in squads of 6 for half the point cost if in this formation.

Well, they aren't Eldar or Space Marines so a buff is not a sure thing (sadly, I'm saying that seriously). Just pray you don't get the Dark Eldar treatment. At least, you have almost no named HQs to remove

Tau got pretty solid treatment last time around, as they came out well above anything Chaos Marines or Dark Angels could put up. Plus the army is highly popular with all the mech suits and eastern influences.

And let's be honest here, we know that it's Dark Angels and Chaos Marines especially who GW love to nerf into oblivion for no reason at all!
I'd wager good money that DA's will be on a level slightly under the new Vanillas & Tau (whenever their book comes), while Chaos Marines will somehow manage to earns across the board nerfs and pts hikes, because we all know that Chaos can't have nice toys after the 3.5 debacle!

New tau codex? ::shiver:: Pulse rifles glance out rhino quick enough now, imagine formation buffs on top of marker lights. They'll eat transport & msu 10 at a time, from across the board.

Dunno...i managed to steamroll 2 marines player yesterday with my KDK.

Now none of us had expressly Competitive lists, it was a White Scars list, with lots of Bikes, Korssaro a WW, a Stormraven and a Thunderfire.

I had a Blood Host with Slaugthercult, Lord on Jugger and Axe of Khorne/Goredriker combo, Gorepack with 2 msu bikes with 2 meltas and 3 Hounds units, 2 maulers, 1 Soul crusher and a second CAD with SKulltaker 2 Cultists msu and a LR.

Start of second turn he was down to the WW, Thunderfire cannon, 5 bikes scattered across the board and the SR still in reserve, while i had only lost a SOulgrinder, a rhino, 3 bikes and like 5 hounds.

Second game Vs a UM with Gladius strike force, so 7 Combat doctrines in total( i officialy dub the Marines codex "Reroll Marines").

His Chapy in a Assault Centurions squad in a LR crusader, 4 TAC squad splitted, 2 LR, a Hunter and Stalker( he though that i would play a Heldrake as usual, but i did go with a double maulerfiend instead so yeah).

Start of turn 3, he was reduced to 1 LR crusader, 8 marines a immobilzed and weapon less Stalker tank.

WHile i did loose a Summoned skull cannon, 10hounds, 5 posseseds, one of the Maulers, 4 Zerkers and 3 bikes.

All of those in 2200pts games.

All in all what has changed for Marines are tanks squadrons, but if a guy as only 1 or 2 preds, nothings guarantee that he is willing to buy a third.

The formations and the rerolls, and yeah a lot more units has acces to grav guns, for the rest either units din't change that much, or they got a points drop, but their key wargear has a point increase, (TH/SS termies).

But they still have all the weakness of Marines like they used to.

So in my 1850 FLGS tournament last weekend two SM players took the battle company, going undefeated other than one of them losing to the other one. There was a 2 hour time limit where you finish the current turn after that.

The issue was that with so much extra volume of army on the map, the turns went far too slowly. One of them was even summoning on top of it. Their matches were only 3-4 turns... So they simply flooded objectives with obsec pods and Razorbacks and easily won where their opponents had no mechanism to counter it in a short match. Even if the matches were 2.5 hours @1850 I dont think it would be that much better. It's just so much *stuff*.

What do people think of this?

play 1500 or less points, and put a turn time limit per player?

The Battle Company is great at winning the objective missions, but if it is called upon to beat an opposing army it will have a hard time. It doesn't have the power to do it. That plus the time it takes and the effort to transport it. I figure it will be a flash in the pan, six months out you won't see them at tournaments anymore.

mercury14 wrote:
So in my 1850 FLGS tournament last weekend two SM players took the battle company, going undefeated other than one of them losing to the other one. There was a 2 hour time limit where you finish the current turn after that.

The issue was that with so much extra volume of army on the map, the turns went far too slowly. One of them was even summoning on top of it. Their matches were only 3-4 turns... So they simply flooded objectives with obsec pods and Razorbacks and easily won where their opponents had no mechanism to counter it in a short match. Even if the matches were 2.5 hours @1850 I dont think it would be that much better. It's just so much *stuff*.

What do people think of this?

This. I never finished a game at wargames con, even going as fast as I could. It was especially bad against a defensive-minded necron decurion. I'd spend 20 minutes moving and resolving my 30+ units worth of shots. He'd roll saves, then RP's, then rerolls, and pick up like 3 models total in the turn. He'd spend 20 minutes moving blobs of warriors and firing back, not killing much... It was a nightmare to try and play that game in a time limit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
The Battle Company is great at winning the objective missions, but if it is called upon to beat an opposing army it will have a hard time. It doesn't have the power to do it. That plus the time it takes and the effort to transport it. I figure it will be a flash in the pan, six months out you won't see them at tournaments anymore.

That's the long and short of it. I think I may still be playing mine in ITC events in 6 months though. The missions are set up really well for a play the mission army. Purge the alien comes early, so you have decent odds of still playing someone who didn't bring a hardcore top tables list. You just have to get past that hiccup round where you're essentially guaranteed to only win 7-4 at best, and then you're back into objectives for the rest of the event.

 Crazyterran wrote:
The cheapest is 3 Scout Squads in the 10th Company formation for 165. The Suppression force requires to Whirlwinds, so is 175.

Personally I'd look at the anti-air formation instead of either of these, as the OP is missing it. Probably ballparked at about 180-200

I've worked out double demi - it is not viable outside of 2500 points plus. The choices are sub-optimal and razors are also sub optimal - podding tacticals are sub optimal (devs are much better than tacs now due to doctrines), chaplains are a huge waste. Under 2000 points the formation essentially gives you a free chaplain and single 5 man tac squad for the cost of taking a bunch of crap units. ( this is hardly game-breaking)

Since most games occur well under this point limit. Gladius is basically only useful in single demi company formations that don't give you free razors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The cheapest is 3 Scout Squads in the 10th Company formation for 165. The Suppression force requires to Whirlwinds, so is 175.

Personally I'd look at the anti-air formation instead of either of these, as the OP is missing it. Probably ballparked at about 180-200

the proper way to run it is 3WW and a single LS.
65x3 +45.
Thats 240.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I've worked out double demi - it is not viable outside of 2500 points plus. The choices are sub-optimal and razors are also sub optimal - podding tacticals are sub optimal (devs are much better than tacs now due to doctrines), chaplains are a huge waste. Under 2000 points the formation essentially gives you a free chaplain and single 5 man tac squad for the cost of taking a bunch of crap units. ( this is hardly game-breaking)

Since most games occur well under this point limit. Gladius is basically only useful in single demi company formations that don't give you free razors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
The cheapest is 3 Scout Squads in the 10th Company formation for 165. The Suppression force requires to Whirlwinds, so is 175.

Personally I'd look at the anti-air formation instead of either of these, as the OP is missing it. Probably ballparked at about 180-200

the proper way to run it is 3WW and a single LS.
65x3 +45.
Thats 240.

Ok I had a friendly gave set up for Sunday figured it was something fluffy went you know I'll play sister's with the new libby sm formation have some fun with it. So i found out I'm playing an Eldar list.
Went well friendly went bye bye and lets bust out the good stuff. So i made the double Demi company Gladius. Got everything kitted out went ok now the transports 7 razor backs 3 pods for free. gives me 490 free points of ob sec armor I can roll around in. Yes slightly broken o ya i upgraded 80 pionts on the razors so 2 have lt las and 1 has lt plasma las. 3 storm bolters 2 hunter stalkers and 3 drop pods so my list comes out to 10 free ob sec transports all with guns, Chapter tactics yes a little over powered that is 500 points at 1500 my list is 2k if you add the transports.

From the looks of the SM dex im crossing my fingers for a good and fun CSM dex!!!

having looked at the SM 'dex it seems solid to me, honestly it's a codex where I'd be tempted depending on what I'm playing to not bother with formations and just use the standard CAD anyway.

the detachment set up is great if you wanna play a very typical codex force. but people wanting a white scars bike army, a black templar army etc, are proably gonna prefer to just CAD it (although I'd personally be fine if a BT player wanted to sub crusader squads for tatical squads in a demi-company formation)

aronthomas17 wrote:
From the looks of the SM dex im crossing my fingers for a good and fun CSM dex!!!

I would love to see that. Dark Angels got a hefty boost (at least the RW did), CSM should as well. The Daemonkin books don't seem to be an adequate substitution for C:CSM. None of the special characters are there. Kharn should have been in Daemonkin. A strong, non-gimmicky C:CSM is needed.

People makes such a fuss about it.

Played 3 SM with the new codex, nothing to write home about, apart from the near constant rerolls, wich is the reason we call this codex "reroll marines", outside this, they are still Space MArines, with their old tricks and weaknesses.

Yup there is some nifty formations, none of our players are really into formations, because they like to tailor their lists has they wish, while formations restrict you in some ways.

So no, not all the SM players are making vehicles squadrons or have 3 VIndis on hand, or are interested in buying the extra Vindis.

Not all of them have the neccesary models to make those, and they are not really whilling to invest in new models.

Sure there are formations that can be easier to achieve then others, still hasn't seen them though, and i will greet them the same way i did for the last 17years, with a Chain axe to the face.