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However I'd like to see George Lucas against Matt Ward.

Can they take allies? Spielberg and Cruddacce for example?

What about going unbound? Disneys Crew VS Nottingham?

I just blew my own mind.......

Jedi, that is all.

Jedi how/Raiden?

 raiden wrote:
Jedi, that is all.

Yes, because a sensei who's traded his immortality for a power sword is a really good choice to take on an entire galaxy of uberpsykers who have traded control for power.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 raiden wrote:
Jedi, that is all.

Yes, because a sensei who's traded his immortality for a power sword is a really good choice to take on an entire galaxy of uberpsykers who have traded control for power.

Jedi aren't known for being all powerful they are balanced.

Unlike Pyskers who are technically balanced but their powers are more akin to magic than actual pyschic abilities.

Jedi solve everything obviously.

I don't know enough about SW to put much sway in so just made a funny.

I also feel like people are underestimating Jedi, even if they wouldn't make that much more of a difference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another note, Jedi>assassins imo

That depends.

Jedi are still, physically, just normal human(oids). Some can augment their physical capabilities with the Force, but its always been relatively limited.

Assassins on the other hand are super-human in their reflexes.

Given that Jedi are regularly trounced by non-force sensitive individuals who themselves are just above average in terms of physical abilities I think most Jedi and Sith would get shredded by assassins.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That depends.

Jedi are still, physically, just normal human(oids). Some can augment their physical capabilities with the Force, but its always been relatively limited.

Assassins on the other hand are super-human in their reflexes.

Given that Jedi are regularly trounced by non-force sensitive individuals who themselves are just above average in terms of physical abilities I think most Jedi and Sith would get shredded by assassins.

Now I am just imagining a Caldiux assassin vs the Emperor's Dark Troopers.... Ah man that is an image to savor.

 Grey Templar wrote:
That depends.

Jedi are still, physically, just normal human(oids). Some can augment their physical capabilities with the Force, but its always been relatively limited.

Assassins on the other hand are super-human in their reflexes.

Given that Jedi are regularly trounced by non-force sensitive individuals who themselves are just above average in terms of physical abilities I think most Jedi and Sith would get shredded by assassins.

Um. Reflexes that are able to reliably deflect blaster shots?

 raiden wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
That depends.

Jedi are still, physically, just normal human(oids). Some can augment their physical capabilities with the Force, but its always been relatively limited.

Assassins on the other hand are super-human in their reflexes.

Given that Jedi are regularly trounced by non-force sensitive individuals who themselves are just above average in terms of physical abilities I think most Jedi and Sith would get shredded by assassins.

Um. Reflexes that are able to reliably deflect blaster shots?

No, but fast enough to where you'll almost never get shot at in the first place.

Jedi reflection is also not totally reliable. They can't reflect every bolt, and they die to blaster fire all the time.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
That depends.

Jedi are still, physically, just normal human(oids). Some can augment their physical capabilities with the Force, but its always been relatively limited.

Assassins on the other hand are super-human in their reflexes.

Given that Jedi are regularly trounced by non-force sensitive individuals who themselves are just above average in terms of physical abilities I think most Jedi and Sith would get shredded by assassins.

Um. Reflexes that are able to reliably deflect blaster shots?

No, but fast enough to where you'll almost never get shot at in the first place.

Jedi reflection is also not totally reliable. They can't reflect every bolt, and they die to blaster fire all the time.

Only time I've seen them die to blaster fire was from overwhelming amounts. The ability to deflect (and regularly return to sender) blaster fire is an achievement most -normal- humans would never be able to do. Not to mention against trained shooters.

The point is, I'd wager assassins reflexes aren't better than a regular Jedi, much less a master. And Jedi can sense danger..

There's also 0 evidence the anti psyker assassin would effect Jedi in any way

Only time I've seen them die to blaster fire was from overwhelming amounts. The ability to deflect (and regularly return to sender) blaster fire is an achievement most -normal- humans would never be able to do. Not to mention against trained shooters.

The point is, I'd wager assassins reflexes aren't better than a regular Jedi, much less a master. And Jedi can sense danger..

There's also 0 evidence the anti psyker assassin would effect Jedi in any way

....

What?

Assassins are genetically modified in the 40k universe.

Example one:

For reasons still unknown, in 546.M32 Drakan would act against the High Lords of Terra. Deploying his elite assassins, the High Lords were slain to a man. A Space Marine strike force drawn from the Halo Brethren, Sable Swords, and Imperial Fists Chapters was scrambled to stop Vangorich. Storming the Assassinorum Temple on Terra, the force was assailed by a hundred Eversor Assassins. A sole Space Marine survived to reach Vangorich and slay the mad Grand Master with his Bolt Pistol. Afterwards, the Imperium descended into a period of anarchy

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Drakan_Vangorich

Example 2

This particular battle lasted for three hours. Hundreds of Marines fell to the overwhelming Ork forces. Sniper fire rained down from the mountain sides, relentlessly targeting the Apothecaries. It should be noted that the sniper fire was not Ork in origin. Imperial issued longlas laser sniper rifles were used, burning holes straight through the helmet and eye-lenses of Chapter officers. Finally, a small company was able to break through the Ork lines and fight their way back to the Hive. Only ninety-six Marines survived and, to make matters worse, the last Apothecary was shot in the head within hours of arriving at the Hive; he was found slumped against his Rhino transport with a las burn straight through his temple. Their gene-seed lies unharvested on the surface of Armageddon and the remaining brothers have sworn to die alongside their fallen brothers, fighting to the last.[3]

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Callidus_Temple
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Culexus_Temple
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Eversor_Temple
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Vindicare_Temple

All of these are highly trained individuals that have extended life spans and weapons that make lightsabers look like jokes.

A vindicare asassin would kill the enemy warleader with one shot. An Eversor Assassin would slaughter everything in sight. Including the jedi. We are talking about individuals who kill Astartes and even Xenos with ease.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Assassins are genetically modified in the 40k universe.

Example one:

Example 2

Those quotes don't say anything about genetic modification.

All of these are highly trained individuals that have extended life spans and weapons that make lightsabers look like jokes.

And until you quantify "highly trained" or give some evidence for those weapons "making lightsabers look like jokes" this is a meaningless statement.

A vindicare asassin would kill the enemy warleader with one shot.

No, because the enemy warleader is actually a Culture drone in disguise and the vindicare's shot is dumped into hyperspace. And then the knife missile that was hovering behind the vindicare takes a photo of the vindicare's horrified expression before teleporting an antimatter bomb into the vindicare's brain. See how much fun it is when we make unsupported claims about how things will automatically go a particular way?

An Eversor Assassin would slaughter everything in sight.

No, because within sight is a Culture drone that traps the eversor in a containment field and takes it back home to join the drone's collection of primitive artifacts.

We are talking about individuals who kill Astartes and even Xenos with ease.

So what? Killing space marines is nothing special, even the WWI-in-space DKoK can do that.

 raiden wrote:
Jedi solve everything obviously.

I don't know enough about SW to put much sway in so just made a funny.

I also feel like people are underestimating Jedi, even if they wouldn't make that much more of a difference.

That's the thing - 40k actually has a Jedi-equivalent.

The Sensei were, in addition to being the Emperor's children in one way or another, a kind of psyker who could draw on 'untainted warp energy, the power of living things in an emotionally balanced state'. However, due to their limited (if completely safe) power source, their abilities were also limited - they could only use their power to enhance themselves (strength, reflexes, battle precognition, persuasiveness) - if they attempted to use offensive powers (warp lightning, for example) they would draw on tainted warp energy to do so and thus invite daemons in the usual manner... sound familiar?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Assassins are genetically modified in the 40k universe.

Example one:

Example 2

Those quotes don't say anything about genetic modification.

All of these are highly trained individuals that have extended life spans and weapons that make lightsabers look like jokes.

And until you quantify "highly trained" or give some evidence for those weapons "making lightsabers look like jokes" this is a meaningless statement.

A vindicare asassin would kill the enemy warleader with one shot.

No, because the enemy warleader is actually a Culture drone in disguise and the vindicare's shot is dumped into hyperspace. And then the knife missile that was hovering behind the vindicare takes a photo of the vindicare's horrified expression before teleporting an antimatter bomb into the vindicare's brain. See how much fun it is when we make unsupported claims about how things will automatically go a particular way?

An Eversor Assassin would slaughter everything in sight.

No, because within sight is a Culture drone that traps the eversor in a containment field and takes it back home to join the drone's collection of primitive artifacts.

We are talking about individuals who kill Astartes and even Xenos with ease.

So what? Killing space marines is nothing special, even the WWI-in-space DKoK can do that.

What the hell does the culture have to do with this discussion?

also on the genetically modified

In addition, specialized use of genetics and human biology result in the Eversors' modification to be more efficient killers making them almost superhuman. Their bodies are modified to make them superb killing machines and include augmentations that strain the limits of their human physiology through the use of bionics and genetic alterations; the assassin is implanted with adrenal ducts, which speed up the brain's higher functions, allowing the Eversor to make complex calculations and tactical decisions in seconds. The adrenal ducts are also able to feed the brain, allowing the assassin to work briefly in a hard vacuum. In addition, a secondary heart is implanted in order to help the assassin's body cope with the various changes and to act as a fail-safe in case the primary heart is damaged in combat.

The Culexus Assassin is a creature that rivals the eldar in speed

 Asherian Command wrote:
What the hell does the culture have to do with this discussion?

It has about as much to do with the discussion as your "the assassin will automatically win because they're well trained" story.

The Culexus Assassin is a creature that rivals the eldar in speed

And? How does it compare to the speed of the enemies it will face in a fight against Star Wars armies?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
What the hell does the culture have to do with this discussion?

It has about as much to do with the discussion as your "the assassin will automatically win because they're well trained" story.

The Culexus Assassin is a creature that rivals the eldar in speed

And? How does it compare to the speed of the enemies it will face in a fight against Star Wars armies?

Because he normal races of star wars move at human speeds, they are not moving so quickly that they are literally blinding.

Assassins from 40k are meant to take out targets there is without a doubt that the jedi can kill them, but the assassins would of done their job.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Because he normal races of star wars move at human speeds.

Jedi don't, and the comparison was assassin vs. jedi.

Assassins from 40k are meant to take out targets there is without a doubt that the jedi can kill them, but the assassins would of done their job.

Do you have any evidence to support your assumption that the 40k assassin can take out their target? When you answer this question keep in mind the fact that Star Wars has things like security droids, weapon scanners, personal shields, etc and high-value targets are going to have that protection.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Because he normal races of star wars move at human speeds.

Jedi don't, and the comparison was assassin vs. jedi.

Assassins from 40k are meant to take out targets there is without a doubt that the jedi can kill them, but the assassins would of done their job.

Do you have any evidence to support your assumption that the 40k assassin can take out their target? When you answer this question keep in mind the fact that Star Wars has things like security droids, weapon scanners, personal shields, etc and high-value targets are going to have that protection.

Not to mention the thousands of assassin droids they could build..

We have evidence of Jedi not only reflecting blaster shots, (which move about as fast as a fired projectile }
But also being able to deflect them so as they hit the firer.

We also have evidence that Jedi can fight in the air/falling.

Light sabers can basically absorb electricity and or "magic"


We also have proof of Jedi being able to sense danger from another room, with something as small as a large centipede.

Also, another note, SW has the technology to basically REGROW a hand to fully functional and feeling capacity.

(All of this is from the movie series)

Now then.


Let me use your argument. A Jedi can single handedly whoop a captain, and half his company because he is a master.

Not regrow, IIRC, but a really life-like prosthetic. Unless I missed something.

Assassin vs Jedi. As emotionally uninvested as I am in this discussion, I'd have to say my money's on the Jedi. Reasons:

1) An assassin is a rarely skilled, highly trained human. A Jedi on the other hand possesses skills that exceed the normal parameters of their species.

2) Assassin may have super fast reflexes, but a Jedi one-ups him by having similar reflexes AND being able to psychically pre-empt attacks and counter them with ease. Hell (s)he'd probably sense the disturbance in the force as a Calidus assassin sets up his sniper rifle 2 blocks away....then mind trick him into shooting himself in the face.

3) Jedi have been seen throughout the films engaging dozens, sometimes hundreds of enemies simultaneously and come out victorious.Now just to be clear I'm not claiming an assassin can't do that, just that I haven't seen or read about it...

4) It's been stated that Jedi die to massed blaster fire. This isn't a testament to their inferiority, but their phenomenal resiliance -the situations in which they died they were hopelessly outnumbered., and even then slew many foes! It may be that hey are too few to form an effective army, but that doesn't count against their individual power.

FWIW, all but like 5 jedi were killed by order 66(?) so I'd say they are good, just not war god good. (Also, how the feth did they not sense the danger then? I mean aniken was supposed to be a prodigy, but still.)

 Asherian Command wrote:
{random anecdotes about 40k assassins vs. 40k targets

That's nice, but:

1) None of it is canon, so none of it matters.

2) You haven't quantified any of those claims. A modern army will beat a WWI army of equal size, but both of them lose to a Culture warship. You're doing the equivalent of listing all of the feats the modern army is capable of against WWI-level enemies and then trying to use it as evidence that the modern army beats the Culture ship. Whether or not an assassin can kill a 40k target is irrelevant, unless you can first establish that the 40k target is a tougher opponent than the Star Wars equivalent. And you haven't done that.

 raiden wrote:
Not to mention the thousands of assassin droids they could build..

We have evidence of Jedi not only reflecting blaster shots, (which move about as fast as a fired projectile }
But also being able to deflect them so as they hit the firer.

We also have evidence that Jedi can fight in the air/falling.

Light sabers can basically absorb electricity and or "magic"


We also have proof of Jedi being able to sense danger from another room, with something as small as a large centipede.

Also, another note, SW has the technology to basically REGROW a hand to fully functional and feeling capacity.

(All of this is from the movie series)

Now then.


Let me use your argument. A Jedi can single handedly whoop a captain, and half his company because he is a master.

And? What does that prove? An Assassin will just wait, An astartes is a super human, if they have difficulty killing them? How would a jedi fair? Not very well.

The Callidus assassins will just wait to the jedi are vulnerable slaughter them in the middle of the night. If a bunch of jedi are killed by an army of clones, what would happen if an army of Assassins just came in?


Well for one. Eversor Assassins would after death explode and kill everything in their vincity, we have seen their effectiveness by wiping out an entire planet to killing an entire host of spacemarines to a man. Sure you could bring out that jedi can fight against super humans, one yeah maybe a master could defeat a space marine, but a hundred? By themselves? A single normal jedi, outside of Anakin, Luke, Obiwan and Starkiller would not far well. As 200 jedi warriors attacked a genosian planet and less than three dozen survived. Against droids....
DROIDS

You know those machines that are held together by rusty bolts and are heavy reliant on their commanders. Its like as if jedi aren't good at massed battles. Its like as if their job is not to fight in wars as soldiers. The jedi would fair well against an assassin, that is. If an Assassin was dumb enough to tangle upfront with a jedi master. Likelihood is pretty low of a direct confrontation with the other Assassin Temples. The only ones that are upfront are Eversors.

And they are rarely deployed unless it is to terrify their opponents so most likely they would be deployed in areas that heavy resistance and are critical locations. (Such as the Kamino labs)

If a bunch of idiotic droids are able to kill jedi, what would a super human with extremely quick reflexes do to a jedi? Well the answer is pretty simple. The Jedi gets bolts slice all the way through them. Oh you cut the bolt in half, the weapon is still traveling at super sonic the fragments would get scattered and explode. Jedi do not do well against explosive rounds or anything explosive. You can't block an explosion unless your name is Yoda.

Assassin droids wouldn't do anything to an Imperium which hates robots with any sort of intelligence. How would an Assassin droid travel to holy terra or the Crusade Fleet high command? Somehow bypass the imperium's defenses and vast ships?

Assassin droids in the starwars universe do not have cloaking devices, or can shapeshift into their targets, they use brute force similar to the Eversor assassin. (As that has already been shown is more of a terror use, over the upfront and kill a single target.)

So what would the Assassin droid do? It would face, assassins that are human, and have one thing the droids lack. Creativity. Everything in the Imperium of man is human. Run by human brains. The Assassin droids can't hack the network like R2-D2 could.

Though I would pay to see an Assassin versus an Assassin War. The Star wars universe as vast and powerful as it is cannot fight against something that is under one banner. The Imperium is no stranger to alien races, or even human races that have more advanced weaponry. They have shown that their replicated arms and training of their troops is more valuable than pricy tech.

Also on terms of jedi blocking bolter shells (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/379869.page)
Have fun.

Granted a single jedi could kill a spacemarine, but it would depend on the jedi and the space marine. If it was say Rogal Dorn, then the jedi loses. If it was Ragnar Blackmane, the Jedi would lose, If it was a Pysker, the jedi would lose.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Also, how the feth did they not sense the danger then?

Act of plot. IIRC the clones were programmed to betray the jedi on a level that they weren't aware of until they received the order and opened fire, so their jedi targets had no hostile intent to notice until it was too late.

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Assassin vs Jedi. As emotionally uninvested as I am in this discussion, I'd have to say my money's on the Jedi. Reasons:

1) An assassin is a rarely skilled, highly trained human. A Jedi on the other hand possesses skills that exceed the normal parameters of their species.

2) Assassin may have super fast reflexes, but a Jedi one-ups him by having similar reflexes AND being able to psychically pre-empt attacks and counter them with ease. Hell (s)he'd probably sense the disturbance in the force as a Calidus assassin sets up his sniper rifle 2 blocks away....then mind trick him into shooting himself in the face.

3) Jedi have been seen throughout the films engaging dozens, sometimes hundreds of enemies simultaneously and come out victorious.Now just to be clear I'm not claiming an assassin can't do that, just that I haven't seen or read about it...

4) It's been stated that Jedi die to massed blaster fire. This isn't a testament to their inferiority, but their phenomenal resiliance -the situations in which they died they were hopelessly outnumbered., and even then slew many foes! It may be that hey are too few to form an effective army, but that doesn't count against their individual power.

Problem Callidius Assassins don't use sniper rifles.

Vindicare Assassins set up from miles upon miles away. Unless this jedi can sense a disturbance from I don't know. Thirty five miles away. I think the Vindicare Assassin would be fine.

Eversor wouldn't do well against jedi, neither would many others but the other assassins Culexus and Calldius would fair quite a bit. I mean can they sense that someone is shapeshifted? When even people who have heightened senses some how can't smell the different or tell the difference or someone who can predict the future somehow can't see that the assassin standing right behind them?

We are not talking about emano vs emano. We are talking about an Assassin who doesn't fight like that. That isn't their job in the imperium it is to go in and kill their target. The Eversors do that not the Calldius or Vindicare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Also, how the feth did they not sense the danger then?

Act of plot. IIRC the clones were programmed to betray the jedi on a level that they weren't aware of until they received the order and opened fire, so their jedi targets had no hostile intent to notice until it was too late.

And thats where we get into the territory of. "Well then thats a flaw."

I am pretty sure they would have difficulty finding out who is an Assassin and who is not.

 Asherian Command wrote:
An astartes is a super human, if they have difficulty killing them? How would a jedi fair? Not very well.

{Citation needed.}

Jedi are far above normal human levels.

The Callidus assassins will just wait to the jedi are vulnerable slaughter them in the middle of the night.

And the jedi will just wait until the callidus assassins are vulnerable and slaughter them in the middle of the night. See how much fun it is to make up unsupported claims about how things will go?

If a bunch of jedi are killed by an army of clones, what would happen if an army of Assassins just came in?

The jedi would sense the threat and fight back, since the assassins don't have the plot-device "we're loyal until our hidden 'stab you in the back' programming is activated" option to conceal their intent. And who knows if the assassins' disguises would even fool Star Wars security systems.

As 200 jedi warriors attacked a genosian planet and less than three dozen survived. Against droids....

Against huge numbers of droids. This is like saying that modern soldiers are less effective than medieval knights because the knights can win at 1000:1 odds.

Oh you cut the bolt in half, the weapon is still traveling at super sonic the fragments would get scattered and explode.

Alternatively, the bolt is incinerated by the lightsaber's blade and nothing is left to hit the jedi. Or the jedi uses the force to push the bullet away. You keep looking for all these gimmicks for 40k to win but you never make the same assumptions about the other side.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I mean can they sense that someone is shapeshifted?

I don't know. But since you're making the assumption that the jedi can't sense that someone is shapeshifted (or an assassin trying to kill them) I'm assuming you have some evidence to support your claim? Perhaps some canon examples of jedi failing to detect callidus assassins?

And thats where we get into the territory of. "Well then thats a flaw."

It's a flaw that only works if you have the plot device gimmick available, and 40k doesn't.

I am pretty sure they would have difficulty finding out who is an Assassin and who is not.

{citation needed}

 Peregrine wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
An astartes is a super human, if they have difficulty killing them? How would a jedi fair? Not very well.

{Citation needed.}

Jedi are far above normal human levels.

The Callidus assassins will just wait to the jedi are vulnerable slaughter them in the middle of the night.

And the jedi will just wait until the callidus assassins are vulnerable and slaughter them in the middle of the night. See how much fun it is to make up unsupported claims about how things will go?

If a bunch of jedi are killed by an army of clones, what would happen if an army of Assassins just came in?

The jedi would sense the threat and fight back, since the assassins don't have the plot-device "we're loyal until our hidden 'stab you in the back' programming is activated" option to conceal their intent. And who knows if the assassins' disguises would even fool Star Wars security systems.

As 200 jedi warriors attacked a genosian planet and less than three dozen survived. Against droids....

Against huge numbers of droids. This is like saying that modern soldiers are less effective than medieval knights because the knights can win at 1000:1 odds.

Oh you cut the bolt in half, the weapon is still traveling at super sonic the fragments would get scattered and explode.

Alternatively, the bolt is incinerated by the lightsaber's blade and nothing is left to hit the jedi. Or the jedi uses the force to push the bullet away. You keep looking for all these gimmicks for 40k to win but you never make the same assumptions about the other side.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
I mean can they sense that someone is shapeshifted?

I don't know. But since you're making the assumption that the jedi can't sense that someone is shapeshifted (or an assassin trying to kill them) I'm assuming you have some evidence to support your claim? Perhaps some canon examples of jedi failing to detect callidus assassins?

And thats where we get into the territory of. "Well then thats a flaw."

It's a flaw that only works if you have the plot device gimmick available, and 40k doesn't.

I am pretty sure they would have difficulty finding out who is an Assassin and who is not.

{citation needed}

Hello pot my name is kettle.

And this has turned into a SW vs Imperium debate, aren't we forgetting about all the other races? Even tau (the most peaceful race, that dislikes civilian causalities) have tech that supernovas stars (albeit, in their case, accidentally at first), and the warriors of all of the races (other than humans and tau) are super-humanly skilled/strong, tau have their tech and tactics, and the imperial guard has reserves ( ).

Now that being said, I don't think it would be one-sided, the SW universe unified would stand up pretty well, but would be brought down by the pure volume of troops the 40k universe can pump out if nothing else.