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We have rules in game for just what precognition does.
What's so wrong about that?
Honestly, they just don't feel so alien to 40k.
They aren't precogs though. They can't predict the future they may have prophecies but never ever is it sshown that jedi can see into the far future, and predict events to such a degree that it parrells what will happen. They have visions yes but they are hazy and filled with smoke it is not to the degree of an Alien race that has been doing it for centuries.
As I said "if it were true to their abilities as depicted in the films." I'm not suggesting a 2+ on a 100 sided dice would be practical for application in 40k, just that that is a more accurate representation of their abilities. They don't deflect 50% of incoming shots ( which woud constitute a 4+ save), its more like 99.5%. and that's just the regular Jedi. So ummmm. Yes!
The only time I've seen them die to blaster blaster fire is a) when they have so many shots coming at them at once that it's impossible to block b) when they're unaware of the danger, or otherwise distracted, which is a rare thing. They are however vulnerable to explosive munitions, and waves of energy like the Geonisians sonic guns seen in episode 2,
In summary they should have an amazing base save and a worse invulnerable, the represent them being able to deflect massed small arms fire.
You are talking about their heroes right? Because yes their heroes and maincharacters always will do better than their expendable red shirt it is a writing trope.
Regular jedi?
You mean these jedi:
Or these jedi?
Notice how easily they are defeated? Notice how the master in the first one was able to not handle his own against a robotic foe? And how that even a master struggles against a foe that is more trained and better in combat. They were defeated in the first one. That was a full on retreat against the droids and super droids. The Imperium has had that happened once and that was 10k years ago. Called the drop site massacre.
SO yes I do find it dumb that you all believe that somehow beings that have lived for thousands of years are worse than beings that have studied for less than 10!
Harliquens and Autarchs are beings that have studied for centuries and have been in war after war. That is another thing. 40k is constantly at war. While Star wars is not. The Astartes, Eldar, every race of 40k has more combat experiencce and war experience than the jedi could ever hope to have. If a bunch of veterans from various wars fought together against all people who rarely seen any type of war what do you think would happen? The veterans would win by a large margin. As seen during the Roman times when Caesar brought his army over and all of his troops having constantly fought in battles fighting against the Prateor guard who had rarely fought any battle.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/22 13:09:54
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Re-read my post Asherian, particularly point (b). Your second video depicts an exact example of what I discussed there...
Grevous has had Jedi training (from Dooku I believe) -those knights are up against another force wielding individual -so that fight says as much for Jedi abilities as it does against them. Grevous was the better combatant, whether from raw skill, additional cybernetics or having 6 arms I do not know...
In any case -you found a few videos in which Jedi are shown to be underwhelming. Here's an even worse one that I laugh at from time to time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MTvtKptWRw I've seen glaciers move faster than those 3 jedi masters! Now if you If you were to formulate the stats of Jedi from this scene, they'd be absolutely pathetic .But one badly choreographed fight scene is hardly a decisive thing is it? I could likewise post videos of Jedi smashing their way through hundreds of droids, stormtroopers and Geonosians. Or some very underwhelming depictions of space marines (the Dawn of War 2 intro where a pair of terminators die like chumps, or the entire Ultramarines film are 2 examples that spring to mind). My point being: you should take the measure of the abilities of Jedi, space marines and everything else in sci-fi from what is consistently depicted across all media in which they feature, not from one or 2 overly good or bad examples. You know what I mean?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/22 13:41:38
Grevous has had Jedi training (from Dooku I believe) -those knights are up against another force wielding individual -so that fight says as much for Jedi abilities as it does against them. Grevous was the better combatant, whether from raw skill, additional cybernetics or having 6 arms I do not know...
In any case -you found a few videos in which Jedi are shown to be underwhelming. Here's an even worse one that I laugh at from time to time! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MTvtKptWRw I've seen glaciers move faster than those 3 jedi masters! Now if you If you were to formulate the stats of Jedi from this scene, they'd be absolutely pathetic .But one badly choreographed fight scene is hardly a decisive thing is it? I could likewise post videos of Jedi smashing their way through hundreds of droids, stormtroopers and Geonosians. Or some very underwhelming depictions of space marines (the Dawn of War 2 intro where a pair of terminators die like chumps, or the entire Ultramarines film are 2 examples that spring to mind). My point being: you should take the measure of the abilities of Jedi, space marines and everything else in sci-fi from what is consistently depicted across all media in which they feature, not from one or 2 overly good or bad examples. You know what I mean?
Grevious wasn't a force user though. He never used the force. Ever.
I am pointing out that you are giving the stats of super humans to beings that are not super humans. They may wield the force but that doesn't mean they would be greater in power or in strength. It may aid them but it doesn't mean their stats are increased by ten fold it is increased from normal but compared to an Astartes or an Eldar that is nothing.
They maybe great warriors but they are not stronger than a being that is constructed for war. Jedi are trained but their training does not circumvent any who are super humans. AS normal beings in the starwars universe have been shown to kill jedi. (IE Jango Fett and Boba Fett) JEdi are not greater than individuals who have fought for years and have seen war and are genetically modified and given armor that is heat resistant. and blast resistant.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/22 13:52:03
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
A laughably small force, with the element of surprise, killed he majority of the Jedi in the entire galaxy, almost simultaneously.
If other Imperial forces could force the few remaining Jedi into hiding, and said Imperial forces are so laughably outmatched by a fraction of the IoM, then how could Jedi threaten the IoM substantially?
A laughably small force, with the element of surprise, killed he majority of the Jedi in the entire galaxy, almost simultaneously.
If other Imperial forces could force the few remaining Jedi into hiding, and said Imperial forces are so laughably outmatched by a fraction of the IoM, then how could Jedi threaten the IoM substantially?
WEll not with the stats you guys gave them XD
Those are stats of Harliquens who have been living for centuries and are so deadly they make Assassins of the Imperium look laughably bad.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
There are at least some places in the Star Wars EU where the Jedi combat training is suggested to be ridiculously effective. There's one instance I recall, in the Clone Wars novel 'The Cestus Deception', Obi Wan shows a Clone Trooper the very basics of Jedi training. The result is that, later on in the story, this Clone Trooper has little issue overwhelming his bretheren in hand-ti-hand combat.
So you have a bunch of super elite troopers, born and bred to fight, trained from birth in a programme designed by one of the most lethal fighters in the galaxy and a Jedi teaching one of them some moves is enough to drastically improve his skills.
In the end, I think Jedi abilities in the fluff vary about as much as marine abilities.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
Grevious wasn't a force user though. He never used the force. Ever.
I often wondered about that,. Just looked it up and seems you're correct on that count.
Asherian Command wrote: I am pointing out that you are giving the stats of super humans to beings that are not super humans. They may wield the force but that doesn't mean they would be greater in power or in strength. It may aid them but it doesn't mean their stats are increased by ten fold it is increased from normal but compared to an Astartes.
We're not in disagreement on that: The only stat I was advocating was that their save should be far better than 4+ (vs small arms shoots anyway) as they certainly deflect a hell of a lot more than 50% of what's fired at them. Though now that you mention it, I believe a high WS and Initiative would be appropriate too.
Asherian Command wrote: As normal beings in the starwars universe have been shown to kill jedi. (IE Jango Fett and Boba Fett) JEdi are not greater than individuals who have fought for years and have seen war and are genetically modified and given armor that is heat resistant. and blast resistant.
There are excpeptional individuals who could go toe to toe with a Jedi but they're far and few between. As you'll probably agree Jango and Boba aren't average veteran soldiers, in fact they're (arguably)the best non-Jedi human warriors of their times.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/22 14:23:21
Grevious wasn't a force user though. He never used the force. Ever.
I often wondered about that,. Just looked it up and seems you're correct on that count.
Asherian Command wrote: I am pointing out that you are giving the stats of super humans to beings that are not super humans. They may wield the force but that doesn't mean they would be greater in power or in strength. It may aid them but it doesn't mean their stats are increased by ten fold it is increased from normal but compared to an Astartes.
We're not in disagreement on that: The only stat I was advocating was that their save should be far better than 4+ (vs small arms shoots anyway) as they certainly deflect a hell of a lot more than 50% of what's fired at them. Though now that you mention it, I believe a high WS and Initiative would be appropriate too.
Asherian Command wrote: As normal beings in the starwars universe have been shown to kill jedi. (IE Jango Fett and Boba Fett) JEdi are not greater than individuals who have fought for years and have seen war and are genetically modified and given armor that is heat resistant. and blast resistant.
There are excpeptional individuals who could go toe to toe with a Jedi but they're far and few between. As you'll probably agree Jango and Boba aren't average veteran soldiers, in fact they're (arguably)the best non-Jedi human warriors of their times.
But WS 9 and Ws7?
thats a bit extreme.
Ws5 and WS6 Maybe. But WS9? Thats asinine.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
I say WS 5 for regular Jedi. Ws6 for generic Masters and Ws7 for named characters of note( such as obiwan and Vader)
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
But WS 9 and Ws7?
thats a bit extreme.
Ws5 and WS6 Maybe. But WS9? Thats asinine.
It depends on how you look at it: I'd personally say WS5 and WS6 is a little underwhelming. An assassin has 8 and as both they and experienced Jedi Knight have a lifetime of devotion to blade training, then I wouldn't think 8 is unbefitting a Jedi Knight. Then again I consider the whole WS / hit chart to be somewhat a load of bo**ox to begin with -a defending model needing more than 2x the WS of an attacker to gain any bonus whatsoever to avoid being struck always struck me as questionable. But I won't go on that tangent... Jedi are pretty much the most skilled blade fighters in their universe so I believe a high WS is befitting them.
I'd say a Jedi Master -between his finesse with a blade, augmented by his attunement to the force- has more skill in close combat than a marine captain. The captain has the advantage of much greater resliience and strength. Speed is debatable as I'm unsure for whether the force actually increases a Jedi's reactions past the humanly capable, or whether it's it all just incredible bu still human precision and reaction allowed by Then of course there's their gear and how it stands up. Does a lightsabre cleave through power armour (I imagine it does as it's at least the equivalent of a power sword). Would the sabre brean a power weapon or does the power field stop it dead? I imagine a force weapon would. But screwed if I know for sure! Guess that's where our own imagination and forging a narrative comes in handy...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/22 18:16:31
Well weapon skill is determinant of how well skilled they are in combat not just with a blade. You can be the best swordsmen, but someone like lucius who was perfect with the blade has ws of 7. And I highly doubt that a jedi would be able to defeat lucius in a sword fight.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Lucius isn't perfect with a sword, lol. He spends far too much time grandstanding and admiring his reflection in the blade.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Furyou Miko wrote: Lucius isn't perfect with a sword, lol. He spends far too much time grandstanding and admiring his reflection in the blade.
He was considered the greatest swordsmen of his time and now he is a demon. He is rarely defeated and he can't be killed.
Actually that is an interesting thing, what would a jedi do in front of a demon? Would they flee? I know the masters would fight but a regular jedi would probably lose their mind as they aren't trained to deal with the warp. Or warp suggestion.
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
They are trained to master their own emotions, however, so they'd probably be OK.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
They are trained to resist dark side corruption and basically everything that the warp is, but I could see an apprentice losing his mind and rushing forward blindly(or running from) the daemon in question. As seen in the same SW cartoon above when Grievous attacks.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
Furyou Miko wrote: They are trained to master their own emotions, however, so they'd probably be OK.
Demons are suggestors of things that even jedi would find tempting. They often lead the best intentioned down the path of damnation.
I mean they are free thinkers and that is will probably the death of their kind is their free thinking.
I am pretty sure they will not be okay. The Masters will be but regular knights. I think will have extremely difficult. Padawans will fall pretty easily.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoomShakaLaka wrote: They are trained to resist dark side corruption and basically everything that the warp is, but I could see an apprentice losing his mind and rushing forward blindly(or running from) the daemon in question. As seen in the same SW cartoon above when Grievous attacks.
Not exactly as the demons don't use normal methods that say the dark side uses they cover your mind and make you dothings they possess people easily they will do anything to weaken their enemies.
A normal Astartes has psychic conditioning before becoming an Astartes, and very few survive. And most are scarred after fighting demons.
Demons of Khorne they are easy. But demons of tzeench, demons of nurgle, and slannesh? These are pretty encompassing emotions they gain power from. I don't think they will because they are not the zealots that 40k are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/22 18:59:49
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Furyou Miko wrote: Black Library books are just licensed fanfiction anyway. Kind of like Todd McCaffrey's pern novels.
Do you have any backup for this at all?
Black Library is a division of Games Workshop.
This is at the bottom of their website.
Yes. The Black Library tag means its licensed. The fact it was written by people other than the original author of the setting makes it fanfiction, especially given that all black library authors are fans of the setting.
This isn't a value debate. It's a linguistic one. The Black Library publish fiction written by fans of the setting. It is fan fiction.
Sometimes, they even edit it for cohesion with the rest of the published works.
The closest thing Black Library has to an "official author" is C.Z. Dunn, and that's because he happens to be on GW's bankroll as something other than a writer.
Its not a linguistic fight, we are not talking about things are pronounced or where their language comes from.
This a debate between 40k and starwars.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
raiden wrote: I'd rate storm trooper armor at 4+ like the more elite of the imperium.
If forced to put into TT stats...
Jedi- ws7, BS 5, str4, T4, W3, A4, I7 sv6+ LD 9
Ofc their lightsaber is ap2 fleshbane/armor bane
4++
3++ in close combat.
(No +6)
Master Jedi- WS 9 BS 5, str4, T4-5, W4, A6, I8, sv6+ LD10
3++ rerolling in close combat. (++3? Okay that is ridicilious no.
+5)
Unfortunately, there are very very few true Jedi Master..
For storm.troopers...
WS3, BS4 S3 T3 W1 A2 I3 sv4+ ld8
Imperial army trooper-
WS2 BS2 S3 T3 W1 A1 I3 sv5+ LD7 (8 for vet Sgts )
Umm ws9 is impossible for a mortal being.
Also
It would mean their weapon skill is greater than a being that is over several thousand years old. WS of 9 is pretty fething high.
A4? No. A2 for a normal jedi Ballistic skill is skill with a rifle or long range. Most jedi do not use guns. How the helk would they be better than men who have trained for years in combat service?
Toughness 4 means that they have a hardened shell around them. No that doesn't mean that at all. T3, they are not super humans with higher bone density and exoskeletons.
Good stats, except the lightsaber save. If it were true to the films It'd be more like 2++ on D100 for even a novice jedi. A master would be more like 2++ on D1000. Somewhat "unfun" for a tabletop game I know!
What. a ++2 save? so a Harliquen and an Autarch of the Eldar are worse than a jedi master? umm. No.
Jedi are the super beings of the SW universe, so yes master Jedi would indeed have weapon skill of 8-9, their movements are arguably more fluid and precise than an autarchs.
Jedi(not masters) are shown to down 3-4 droids in a second or with one strike in the MOVIES. So easily 3-4 attacks base.
T4, Luke had his hand sliced off and was still able to function/think
Anakin survived being sliced to bits by obi-wan AND being burned Alive from the heat of lava
Yoda falls several Stories and doesn't break ANYTHING. He gets up and walks off.
T4, YES.
We have evidence from the MOVIES with Jedi being proficient with blasters/other ranged weapons. I'd hear an argument for BS3-4 though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The invulnerable save is fine and the other idea was a tad ridiculous. Considering droids probably have ws1/2
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/22 19:02:37
Aherian, a trained knight would only have issues with corruption of the warp if they were already being corrupted by the dark side. Its the same people who would eventually leave and become Sith. EDIT or grey Jedi
Also many sith( such as Vader) would not accept chaos as he does not want to simply replace his master with another but to be his own master and rule the galaxy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/22 19:07:09
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
As for the Jedi vs Daemon, all I mean is that they probably won't panic or turn to gibbering wrecks upon witnessing them.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Furyou Miko wrote: They are trained to master their own emotions, however, so they'd probably be OK.
Demons are suggestors of things that even jedi would find tempting. They often lead the best intentioned down the path of damnation.
I mean they are free thinkers and that is will probably the death of their kind is their free thinking.
I am pretty sure they will not be okay. The Masters will be but regular knights. I think will have extremely difficult. Padawans will fall pretty easily.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoomShakaLaka wrote: They are trained to resist dark side corruption and basically everything that the warp is, but I could see an apprentice losing his mind and rushing forward blindly(or running from) the daemon in question. As seen in the same SW cartoon above when Grievous attacks.
Not exactly as the demons don't use normal methods that say the dark side uses they cover your mind and make you dothings they possess people easily they will do anything to weaken their enemies.
A normal Astartes has psychic conditioning before becoming an Astartes, and very few survive. And most are scarred after fighting demons.
Demons of Khorne they are easy. But demons of tzeench, demons of nurgle, and slannesh? These are pretty encompassing emotions they gain power from. I don't think they will because they are not the zealots that 40k are.
I agree on some points, masters would have none of it though,
Knights would likely resist,
Why?
There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
(There is no chaos, there is harmony.)(*)
There is no death, there is the Force.
—The Jedi Code (Based on the meditations of Odan-Urr)
Padawans would be targets, but would quickly be put under closer scrutiny,
Jedi are free thinkers in that they are very libral, except towards ideas that cause chaos/disharmony/war/etc.
Senators would be more likely targets of chaos.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/22 19:12:15
Sith recognize that they are slaves to anyone they aren't strong enough to overthrow.
They may not want a new master, but they will recognize those stronger than them.
As for weapon skill, WS5/6 *IS* superhuman.
As for being faster than an Autarch, what are you basing that on? Fanboyism? Autarchs aren't just "pinnicle of humanity". They aren't even human. They are well beyond Human in such measures.
Again, what makes a Jedi more skilled than Jain Zar or Asurmen?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the Jedi have spent their lives hardening themselves against the primal corruption's of the Dark Side. As sinister as it is, it is still unfocused, unplanning. The Warp equivalent is now driven by some of the most devious, calculating entities known to either galaxy. Most will stay strong, but such an abrupt context shift will cause many to break.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/22 19:15:13
Bharring wrote: Sith recognize that they are slaves to anyone they aren't strong enough to overthrow.
They may not want a new master, but they will recognize those stronger than them.
As for weapon skill, WS5/6 *IS* superhuman.
As for being faster than an Autarch, what are you basing that on? Fanboyism? Autarchs aren't just "pinnicle of humanity". They aren't even human. They are well beyond Human in such measures.
Again, what makes a Jedi more skilled than Jain Zar or Asurmen?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the Jedi have spent their lives hardening themselves against the primal corruption's of the Dark Side. As sinister as it is, it is still unfocused, unplanning. The Warp equivalent is now driven by some of the most devious, calculating entities known to either galaxy. Most will stay strong, but such an abrupt context shift will cause many to break.
To tackle the argument on chaos
Korne/nurgle/slaanesh would likely corrupt none, save the young ones.
Tzeetnch... Is dangerous. Because Jedi -do- seek knowledge, I beleive tzeetnch would be able to corrupt a few of the non masters, and even tempt some masters, however, once the threat is discovered, they would implement counter measures.
One of the biggest things Jedi have to fight corruption is the force, and the fact they pretty much know what the force is. (No chaos claiming force is their power)
As for asurman and other pheonix lords, I am quite content to agree they should have a higher WS. So point taken.
So, masters having WS7/8 I suppose would be better. Just the fact that they can deflect several blaster fire rounds at once and hit the ones that shot at them is crazy.
Sith would be... A strange child. Many would bend a knee if shown the other is stronger, however, they always will be seeking to take out their master in devious ways.
To sith, betrayal, plots, plans, plans within plans is also power. +tzeetnch play ground here)
As for the Jedi vs Daemon, all I mean is that they probably won't panic or turn to gibbering wrecks upon witnessing them.
I don't think they would fair well though. Chaos corruption happens everywhere even the beings that are sworn to hunt them down.
Also I read this :
Jedi are the super beings of the SW universe, so yes master Jedi would indeed have weapon skill of 8-9, their movements are arguably more fluid and precise than an autarchs.
What. You do realize an Autarch has traveled several paths before he/she became an Autarch right? Autarch are what Chapter masters are to Imperial Guardsmen. They are literal gods on the battlefield. These guys are such good commanders that people like Yriel are counted among their number, they are sometime princes of the old eldar, the path of the leader for Eldar is one that is won through sheer skill and grace. AS such is the eldar race.
WS7 is equalvent to an Eldar Exarch. Who are centuries of years old.
They are held with high esteem by both Seers and warriors alike with each Autarch having mastered many paths across their centuries-long lifespans. This includes one or more facets of the Warrior Paths and at some point in their lives, they begin to show a passion for the intricacies of command as well as strategy. They do not believe in victory being achieved by simple martial excellence in the heat of the battlefield but that the true path lies in holding a wider vision whilst directing a warhost in achieving the most lethal as well as efficient manner. Thus, they walk the Path of Command which leads to a burning obsession where they see each mission and battle being part of a much grander battle plan. Inspiration and guidance comes to them from the mythical leaders of the ancient Houses such as Eldanesh, Ulthanash and Bierellian.[1a] The insight of an Autarch provides them with unparalleled strategic capability as they know of each specialty of the Eldar way of war to such an extent that even an Exarch cannot match them. This is because an Exarch is obsessed with only one facet of a conflict and thus forever bound to it, which prevents them from ever hoping to achieve the heights of an Autarch. Under their guidance, an Eldar warhost can turn out to be a well-honed machine where each component works in perfect synchornisity with its other parts. Though serving as generals, Autarchs are not relegated to simple command and when the bloodlust calls to them, they are quite capable of entering into the battlefield in order to spearhead assaults, duel with enemy leaders or destroy the war machines of their foes with contemptuous ease. In such times, winged Autarchs soar at the head of their forces where they swoop down into the battlefield in order to change the course of the battlefield with a well-placed strike.[1a] This makes them different from Seers who act as a Craftworld's guides and counselors; Autarchs are looked to during the times when the Eldar seek powerful leaders as well as masters. They are sought when the Seers deem the Eldar's fate being led to war and Autarchs are called upon for to their wartime leadership. Their skill, cunning and experience are unrivalled and they lead their fellows into battle where they impart to them every lesson of war. They are great leaders on the field of battle, which is the only place where they lead the Eldar as they have nothing but fire coursing through their veins. This means that Autarchs do not permanently retain their rank; when the time for was has passed, they return to their traditional rank of Exarch, and their traditional place as leaders of their Aspect shrines. Autarchs only ever assume power when they believe their path calls them towards war. It is only through sheer exertion of their will that they assume the Autarchy and gather warriors about them to follow this path. Among most Eldar, the Autarchy is considered a horrifying and dangerous concept as any of their kind can be entirely consumed by it. Thus, at best, an Autarch is guided by the Seers and at worst, they are guided only by the Path of War.[3a]
Read that again... Many paths of the Warrior. Think Of Jedi training and make that ten fold more effective.
These guys have been doing it for centuries get rid of that fanboyism as all eldar are pyskers, meaning think of jedi but with more powers and more control. The Eldar are a very powerful race. Nor should they be messed with. Jedi Masters would be slaughtered by an Exarch leveled Eldar. The Knights would have their hands full with a normal eldar warrior of any shrine, but an Autarch would lead from the front and would be terrifying for any foe to face.
Heaven forbid if the Harlequins get involved.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/22 20:20:55
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
Bharring wrote: Again, what makes a Jedi more skilled than Jain Zar or Asurmen?
Before you ask that question you have to quantify just what exactly Jain Zar and Asurmen are capable of. And I mean quantify in specific terms, not just "they're really awesome".
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Autarchs have practiced many paths of war, but not devoted themselves to mastering any of them.
An Autarch isn't a combat monster, he's a leader/tactical type who happens to know eight or nine martial arts to a proficient degree, so a Jedi Guardian (combat specialist) might have a chance of taking him in a straight up fight on the condition that the Jedi's battle precognition, which is based on reading the disturbances caused by their opponent's intentions colouring their force signature, works on the Autarch.
Since the Autarch has no Force Presence (having no midichlorians and thus being the star wars equivalent to a psychic blank), its highly likely that the Jedi's battle precognition won't work, meaning that all the Jedi's force power combat trickery won't help him defend himself or get past the Autarch's defences either.
So really, it depends how much the Jedi in question has practiced their pure sword forms, as opposed to their Jedi martial arts. An Echani adept might have a better chance against an Autarch than any Jedi, since they're more pure martial artists.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Furyou Miko wrote: Autarchs have practiced many paths of war, but not devoted themselves to mastering any of them.
An Autarch isn't a combat monster, he's a leader/tactical type who happens to know eight or nine martial arts to a proficient degree, so a Jedi Guardian (combat specialist) might have a chance of taking him in a straight up fight on the condition that the Jedi's battle precognition, which is based on reading the disturbances caused by their opponent's intentions colouring their force signature, works on the Autarch.
Since the Autarch has no Force Presence (having no midichlorians and thus being the star wars equivalent to a psychic blank), its highly likely that the Jedi's battle precognition won't work, meaning that all the Jedi's force power combat trickery won't help him defend himself or get past the Autarch's defences either.
So really, it depends how much the Jedi in question has practiced their pure sword forms, as opposed to their Jedi martial arts. An Echani adept might have a better chance against an Autarch than any Jedi, since they're more pure martial artists.
There is also sometimes to suggest that they are sometimes Exarchs as well. As they are known to return to their shrines. As detailed in the codex quite often. As they 'ascend' to the duty of leadership. There is no shrine to the Autarchs they are just a leadership position that is ascended to.
Plus the eldar in combat are devoid of emotion according to some sources. But eldar are never traveling by themselves and most likely this would be an ambush on a very important leader of the Jedi. As the eldar would strike at the heart of their enemy or any who might have a chance at harming their manipulation game they are playing.
Before you ask that question you have to quantify just what exactly Jain Zar and Asurmen are capable of. And I mean quantify in specific terms, not just "they're really awesome".
They are phoenix Lords.
Literal Demigods who are just reborn after they die.
The Phoenix Lords are immortal, after a fashion. When a Phoenix Lord is slain in battle, his place is taken by another Eldar who assumes his costume and identity. In this way the Phoenix Lord is reborn into a fresh cycle of existence. His suit includes a spirit stone which contains the spirits of all the Eldar who have become that Phoenix Lord. Yet, no matter how many different individuals a Phoenix Lord may have been, his mind is forever the same, driven by the dominant personality of the first and greatest warrior to wear the suit.
The Eldar sourcees by the way are quite trustworthy compared to imperial ones. As there is no propganda from the Eldar apart from their legends which are just legends.
The Eldar Phoenix Lords are the greatest warriors of their shrines, Dire Avenger, Banshees, and Scorpions. These are the greatest powers of the Eldar race. That are still living.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/22 20:26:18
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
I don'T buy that, Eldars could very well try to strike fear into the mind of ''lesser being'' or there could be tales of scared civies and defeated guardsmen and marines.
Bobthehero wrote: I don'T buy that, Eldars could very well try to strike fear into the mind of ''lesser being'' or there could be tales of scared civies and defeated guardsmen and marines.
They are alot more trustworthy because most of the records of the eldar are assumed penned by the Ordo Xenos and Inqusitiors (hence why there are many quotes to Inqusitiors of the Ordo Xenos)
I mean I highly doubt a xenophobic Guardsmen would know anything other than what a space marine is. Remember in the imperium space marines are a rare site, hell most don't even know what an inqusitior is. They maybe familar with the Ordo Xenos, but the other ordos they know nothing about.
They are certainly more trustworthy than space marine or imperial guard sources. As most don't live on to write about their encounters with other xenos. Some chapters do have records of other xenos.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/22 20:24:21
From whom are unforgiven we bring the mercy of war.
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