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 raiden wrote:
Autarchs are warriors that have travelled almost every path of the warrior. BUT they "mastered it" without losing themselves to it. Autarchs are NOT selected from exarchs, (see path of the warrior)

Phoenix lords die alot, kharandras lost to a space marine dreadnaught. His rebirth was only done by absorbing the souls/life force of the striking scorpions exarch(S).



I know plenty of eldar fluff, one of my top 3 fav. Factions in 40k.

However, just as imperial propaganda uplifts people, myths and legend about the Phoenix lords do the same.

(Hell even star wars has licensed books with a sith lord literally sucking the life out of an entire planet, turning -everything- with life force into dust, to become immortal), and the Jedi masters have the ability to live on after death with at least interaction on a communication level.(episode 6)



As for.points made about love-

No, Jedi do not love, only the grey Jedi love, the Jedi order prohibits marriage or love. Their teachings SAY it can lead down dark paths. So no, sorry chaos.

Chaos is about feeding the person, it takes their desires and leads them breadcrumb down the path of no return, Jedi are, oddly enough, much like buddist monks. They won't take the bait 99/100 times. (Not saying none would fall, just very few... And I'd wager no true Jedi Master would fall)

Given I though pheonix lords based on melee were WS8... I'll lower the Jedi Master to 7, Jedi knight 6.

All Jedi love. The entire idea of the Light Side of the Force is based on love. It's what drives them to protect the meek from factions such as Sith, indeed it is only the TOR Jedi that refuse to take mates... which in the end blew up completely in their face and led to the order being slaughtered. The Jedi Order set up by the Skywalkers meanwhile suffered no such issues, and snipped in the bud any chance of characters like Anakin Skywalker popping up and leading the near extinction of the Jedi again.

But I really have to laugh if you think Jedi don't feel any love at all, in which case means their entire ideology just blew over your head. They're warrior monks. They hold no possessions so that nothing may ail them with self interests. That doesn't stop them from feeling the emotion, and it certainly doesn't stop them from having flings. Even Obi-Wan Kenobi, posterboy perfect Jedi, had several romantic flings throughout his life.

Also just to highlight the inconsistency in WS stats, a human assassin with presumably a few decades of experience has superior WS than the aforementioned centuries-old Phoenix Lords.

What am I ranting about?

This:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Since the Autarch has no Force Presence (having no midichlorians and thus being the star wars equivalent to a psychic blank), its highly likely that the Jedi's battle precognition won't work, meaning that all the Jedi's force power combat trickery won't help him defend himself or get past the Autarch's defences either.

And this:

 Asherian Command wrote:
.
Warp prescene happens to all souls. If you lack a soul you are a pariah or a black pariah. But Jedi are not this, they are just jedi, they have souls. They have a presence in the warp no matter where they are, what universe you are in if 40k invades your universe.

And many other posts like it. People are just positing ideas they have as facts and then dismissing everything else.

Also me mentioning that midichlorians are not necessarily the cause of force sensitivity is to combat the claims that Tyranids just need to munch on a few Jedi and then be jedi-nids because reasons.

Hundreds of centuries old.

Yes, hundreds of centuries. Asurmen himself was a champion of the Eldar people before the Fall even.

But yes, that always pissed me off.

Keep in mind Chaos only cares about the material universe because the Emperor screwed them over.

Even then the Chaos Gods only give a fraction of their attention to the material universe and even then it's basically a past time for them.

Therefore I suspect Chaos will gain little in the way of a foothold in the SW universe since they might not even notice it.

I doubt the Imperium will send SM to the SW universe since they pose very little actual threat to them compared to the other 40k factions (same with assassins, too little payoff).

Tau would try diplomacy but little else.

Orks would wreck vast portions of the star wars universe, especially since they would quickly co opt hyper space technology and just throw themselves all over the place.

Necrons have presumably no tomb worlds in SW, so I imagine they won't care either.

Most factions would be severely inhibited by possible lack of warp travel, especially Tyranids.

Imperial Guard are a much bigger threat though. There are so many IG they don't even bother counting them, so the Imperium won't think twice about sending a few dozen regiments and naval support at them. 40K ships munitions are larger than most SW craft, so barring large fleets that won't be a problem.

Even a Feral world regiment would quickly drown most SW planets with bodies, artillery and orbital strikes. And I doubt a Jedi can handle swarms of fanatical IG and artillery.

I don't think either universe could beat the other but a few regiments of IG would certainly carve a path through them.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

What am I ranting about?

This:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Since the Autarch has no Force Presence (having no midichlorians and thus being the star wars equivalent to a psychic blank), its highly likely that the Jedi's battle precognition won't work, meaning that all the Jedi's force power combat trickery won't help him defend himself or get past the Autarch's defences either.

And this:

 Asherian Command wrote:
.
Warp prescene happens to all souls. If you lack a soul you are a pariah or a black pariah. But Jedi are not this, they are just jedi, they have souls. They have a presence in the warp no matter where they are, what universe you are in if 40k invades your universe.

And many other posts like it. People are just positing ideas they have as facts and then dismissing everything else.

Also me mentioning that midichlorians are not necessarily the cause of force sensitivity is to combat the claims that Tyranids just need to munch on a few Jedi and then be jedi-nids because reasons.

Oh, that is bs. Not only does everything have a presence in the force (unless you forcibly remove it), even Clones being able to manifest slight force abilities under some advice from Yoda. Especially when Droids were fought by Jedi all the time, lack an organic connection to it, and often got their asses kicked.

Well, unless those droids were HK-47, IG-88, an IG-100, or other various assassin models.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 raiden wrote:
Autarchs are warriors that have travelled almost every path of the warrior. BUT they "mastered it" without losing themselves to it. Autarchs are NOT selected from exarchs, (see path of the warrior)

Phoenix lords die alot, kharandras lost to a space marine dreadnaught. His rebirth was only done by absorbing the souls/life force of the striking scorpions exarch(S).



I know plenty of eldar fluff, one of my top 3 fav. Factions in 40k.

However, just as imperial propaganda uplifts people, myths and legend about the Phoenix lords do the same.

(Hell even star wars has licensed books with a sith lord literally sucking the life out of an entire planet, turning -everything- with life force into dust, to become immortal), and the Jedi masters have the ability to live on after death with at least interaction on a communication level.(episode 6)



As for.points made about love-

No, Jedi do not love, only the grey Jedi love, the Jedi order prohibits marriage or love. Their teachings SAY it can lead down dark paths. So no, sorry chaos.

Chaos is about feeding the person, it takes their desires and leads them breadcrumb down the path of no return, Jedi are, oddly enough, much like buddist monks. They won't take the bait 99/100 times. (Not saying none would fall, just very few... And I'd wager no true Jedi Master would fall)

Given I though pheonix lords based on melee were WS8... I'll lower the Jedi Master to 7, Jedi knight 6.

All Jedi love. The entire idea of the Light Side of the Force is based on love. It's what drives them to protect the meek from factions such as Sith, indeed it is only the TOR Jedi that refuse to take mates... which in the end blew up completely in their face and led to the order being slaughtered. The Jedi Order set up by the Skywalkers meanwhile suffered no such issues, and snipped in the bud any chance of characters like Anakin Skywalker popping up and leading the near extinction of the Jedi again.

But I really have to laugh if you think Jedi don't feel any love at all, in which case means their entire ideology just blew over your head. They're warrior monks. They hold no possessions so that nothing may ail them with self interests. That doesn't stop them from feeling the emotion, and it certainly doesn't stop them from having flings. Even Obi-Wan Kenobi, posterboy perfect Jedi, had several romantic flings throughout his life.

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
—The Jedi Code (Based on the meditations of Odan-Urr)

I'll just repost this. Jedi don't love, they care about others, brotherly love, etc. Friendship/kinship. They don't "love". Or at the least, the masters don't, and their code says they arent supposed to, so please, make sure you understand my statement before assuming things, and make sure you understand the Jedi code before stating what it is.

However, I've read little on what Skywalker set up after the empire collapsed... So if he changed things I'll withdraw my statement about not being supposed to " love".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thegreatchimp wrote:
Also just to highlight the inconsistency in WS stats, a human assassin with presumably a few decades of experience has superior WS than the aforementioned centuries-old Phoenix Lords.

This is another reason I gave Jedi masters WS8 and with that, I'll hold that Jedi Masters WS would be either 7/8.

 raiden wrote:


There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
—The Jedi Code (Based on the meditations of Odan-Urr)

I'll just repost this. Jedi don't love, they care about others, brotherly love, etc. Friendship/kinship. They don't "love". Or at the least, the masters don't, and their code says they arent supposed to, so please, make sure you understand my statement before assuming things, and make sure you understand the Jedi code before stating what it is.

However, I've read little on what Skywalker set up after the empire collapsed... So if he changed things I'll withdraw my statement about not being supposed to " love".

Ya see, there's a difference between what one says... and what one does

 raiden wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 raiden wrote:
Autarchs are warriors that have travelled almost every path of the warrior. BUT they "mastered it" without losing themselves to it. Autarchs are NOT selected from exarchs, (see path of the warrior)

Phoenix lords die alot, kharandras lost to a space marine dreadnaught. His rebirth was only done by absorbing the souls/life force of the striking scorpions exarch(S).



I know plenty of eldar fluff, one of my top 3 fav. Factions in 40k.

However, just as imperial propaganda uplifts people, myths and legend about the Phoenix lords do the same.

(Hell even star wars has licensed books with a sith lord literally sucking the life out of an entire planet, turning -everything- with life force into dust, to become immortal), and the Jedi masters have the ability to live on after death with at least interaction on a communication level.(episode 6)



As for.points made about love-

No, Jedi do not love, only the grey Jedi love, the Jedi order prohibits marriage or love. Their teachings SAY it can lead down dark paths. So no, sorry chaos.

Chaos is about feeding the person, it takes their desires and leads them breadcrumb down the path of no return, Jedi are, oddly enough, much like buddist monks. They won't take the bait 99/100 times. (Not saying none would fall, just very few... And I'd wager no true Jedi Master would fall)

Given I though pheonix lords based on melee were WS8... I'll lower the Jedi Master to 7, Jedi knight 6.

All Jedi love. The entire idea of the Light Side of the Force is based on love. It's what drives them to protect the meek from factions such as Sith, indeed it is only the TOR Jedi that refuse to take mates... which in the end blew up completely in their face and led to the order being slaughtered. The Jedi Order set up by the Skywalkers meanwhile suffered no such issues, and snipped in the bud any chance of characters like Anakin Skywalker popping up and leading the near extinction of the Jedi again.

But I really have to laugh if you think Jedi don't feel any love at all, in which case means their entire ideology just blew over your head. They're warrior monks. They hold no possessions so that nothing may ail them with self interests. That doesn't stop them from feeling the emotion, and it certainly doesn't stop them from having flings. Even Obi-Wan Kenobi, posterboy perfect Jedi, had several romantic flings throughout his life.

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force.
—The Jedi Code (Based on the meditations of Odan-Urr)

I'll just repost this. Jedi don't love, they care about others, brotherly love, etc. Friendship/kinship. They don't "love". Or at the least, the masters don't, and their code says they arent supposed to, so please, make sure you understand my statement before assuming things, and make sure you understand the Jedi code before stating what it is.

However, I've read little on what Skywalker set up after the empire collapsed... So if he changed things I'll withdraw my statement about not being supposed to " love".

Emotion, yet peace.
Ignorance, yet knowledge.
Passion, yet serenity.
Chaos, yet harmony.
Death, yet the Force.

Those weren't the original words. Also, the Skywalker Order only imploded thanks to a gigantic invasion of Sith Lords with a full army the likes of hadn't been seen since around a thousand years. And even then Cade Skywalker still annihilated the One Sith and shot Krayt into a star.

Bharring wrote:
Hundreds of centuries old.

Yes, hundreds of centuries. Asurmen himself was a champion of the Eldar people before the Fall even.

But yes, that always pissed me off.

Hence why game mechanics are never great quantifiers or representation of the lore.

Similar to how in dark souls you can kill a god like being with a single strike of the thunder lance. it is there to be apart of the game mechanics everything has to fit that. If it doesn't then it is unplayable and is just apart of the background.

Would shatter point work against a daemon? Do they retain old wounds and the like from former battles?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also the Jedi could flow walk ( i think thats the name) and learn the history/tactics of the 40k universe by witnessing it firsthand. Not really game changing but nifty nonetheless

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Would shatter point work against a daemon? Do they retain old wounds and the like from former battles?

No. They aren't corporeal and only Luke was able to use that ability if I remember correctly. Their wounds heal pretty quickly. And pain is something they are used to. They don't feel true pain till a pysker gets near or a pariah.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Would shatter point work against a daemon? Do they retain old wounds and the like from former battles?

No. They aren't corporeal and only Luke was able to use that ability if I remember correctly. Their wounds heal pretty quickly. And pain is something they are used to. They don't feel true pain till a pysker gets near or a pariah.

* waves hand* " this isn't the universe you're looking for"

 raiden wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Would shatter point work against a daemon? Do they retain old wounds and the like from former battles?

No. They aren't corporeal and only Luke was able to use that ability if I remember correctly. Their wounds heal pretty quickly. And pain is something they are used to. They don't feel true pain till a pysker gets near or a pariah.

* waves hand* " this isn't the universe you're looking for"

That... That won't work on a demon. They would be like "oh how cute." you know before boiling the jedi alive in blood.

 raiden wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Would shatter point work against a daemon? Do they retain old wounds and the like from former battles?

No. They aren't corporeal and only Luke was able to use that ability if I remember correctly. Their wounds heal pretty quickly. And pain is something they are used to. They don't feel true pain till a pysker gets near or a pariah.

* waves hand* " this isn't the universe you're looking for"

I wouldn't call the Daemons "weak-minded". Man you really oughta watch the movies...

Was joke, yes


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But If you want to argue it, weak minded could mean anyone without any training in using the force. Ergo, deamons fall under it.

 raiden wrote:
Was joke, yes

In this thread it is sorta hard to discern from a joke or someone actually making a claim like that. Though I do see slaanesh cults happening with jabba the hut!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 raiden wrote:


But If you want to argue it, weak minded could mean anyone without any training in using the force. Ergo, deamons fall under it.

Hahaha

Now thats funny. A Being that has lived millions of years somehow gets under the perssuasion of a jedi. And yet Queen Amadla is somehow uneffected. Seems legit.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
They are both well trained, except the guardsmen have tanks and artillery while the Storm troopers lack that in spades.

40k might have some silly tank designs, but the AT-AT is even worse.

It doesn't even have the shields or the mobility that Titans can use as an excuse for their viability. Its just a slow, clunky, underpowered, undergunned transport that is the biggest possible target you could possible have. Titans are at least moderately fast and agile, and have shields.

 raiden wrote:

But If you want to argue it, weak minded could mean anyone without any training in using the force. Ergo, deamons fall under it.

*Sign* All it would take is for you to leave it at "I kid", and I'd have let it slide...



More to the point, using a power of a similar function, human psykers in 40K can temporarily (the duration, however, could vary extremely widely in the fluff) take control of virtually all but the most admantium-willed individuals. Can Jedis do the same? Not according to the movies nor Kenobi himself.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
They are both well trained, except the guardsmen have tanks and artillery while the Storm troopers lack that in spades.

40k might have some silly tank designs, but the AT-AT is even worse.

It doesn't even have the shields or the mobility that Titans can use as an excuse for their viability. Its just a slow, clunky, underpowered, undergunned transport that is the biggest possible target you could possible have. Titans are at least moderately fast and agile, and have shields.

The funny thing this is their transport is stupidly easy to see and is designed by a moron.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 raiden wrote:

But If you want to argue it, weak minded could mean anyone without any training in using the force. Ergo, deamons fall under it.

*Sign* All it would take is for you to leave it at "I kid", and I'd have let it slide...

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

More to the point, using a power of a similar function, human psykers in 40K can temporarily (the duration, however, could vary extremely widely in the fluff) take control of virtually all but the most admantium-willed individuals. Can Jedis do the same? Not according to the movies nor Kenobi himself.

Lol. Quite true, I was never making a real claim just speaking for anyone that might try to use the ambiguity. (Which as has been stated even 40k people have done this thread)

I'd wager weak willed people would fall under low self control/discipline. Or just people with no goal/motivation?

Which brings up the question, are chaos beings/followers/cultist lacking in self control/discipline? I've read fluff stating yes and no.

Of course this is all subjective and has no real evidence behind either way. Just a little fun thought line I had.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
They are both well trained, except the guardsmen have tanks and artillery while the Storm troopers lack that in spades.

40k might have some silly tank designs, but the AT-AT is even worse.

It doesn't even have the shields or the mobility that Titans can use as an excuse for their viability. Its just a slow, clunky, underpowered, undergunned transport that is the biggest possible target you could possible have. Titans are at least moderately fast and agile, and have shields.

The funny thing this is their transport is stupidly easy to see and is designed by a moron.

Titans and the like are even more absurd from a design standpoint. Obviously the walkers there have armor that is immune to most conventional weapons in SW because it is that strong/thick lol.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Now thats funny. A Being that has lived millions of years somehow gets under the perssuasion of a jedi. And yet Queen Amadla is somehow uneffected. Seems legit.

Perhaps, like 40k warp resistance/immunity, immunity to jedi mind control is a genetic thing. So some people in Star Wars have it, but presumably nobody in 40k has it since the force doesn't exist. And in that case it's entirely plausible that a demon, no matter how old, would be weak-minded and easily mind controlled by a jedi. After all, we seem to be assuming that nobody in Star Wars can resist warp corruption, so why assume that anyone in 40k can resist the force?

Titans and the like are even more absurd from a design standpoint. Obviously the walkers there have armor that is immune to most conventional weapons in SW because it is that strong/thick lol.

Not true as in the battlefront trailer a Y-wing can destroy it with an ion bomb.

Also, IIRC sith arent above using full mind control when needed.

I beleive full mind control is a thing the force can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Titans and the like are even more absurd from a design standpoint. Obviously the walkers there have armor that is immune to most conventional weapons in SW because it is that strong/thick lol.

Not true as in the battlefront trailer a Y-wing can destroy it with an ion bomb.

A Y-wing is a bomber IIRC, so that's not "conventional weaponry" I'd wager the AT-AT would be something like 14AV all around or more. (save the neck area)

However I was merely showing that, rule of cool > pragmatism in sci-fi settings like these.


Also, whoever said something about the slaanesh cult with the huts. That would be terrifyingly terrific.

 raiden wrote:
Also, IIRC sith arent above using full mind control when needed.

I beleive full mind control is a thing the force can do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Titans and the like are even more absurd from a design standpoint. Obviously the walkers there have armor that is immune to most conventional weapons in SW because it is that strong/thick lol.

Not true as in the battlefront trailer a Y-wing can destroy it with an ion bomb.

A Y-wing is a bomber IIRC, so that's not "conventional weaponry" I'd wager the AT-AT would be something like 14AV all around or more. (save the neck area)

However I was merely showing that, rule of cool > pragmatism in sci-fi settings like these.


Also, whoever said something about the slaanesh cult with the huts. That would be terrifyingly terrific.

Thank you I thought tof that.

The land raider is a better design than the at at.

 Asherian Command wrote:
The land raider is a better design than the at at.

No it isn't. The AT-AT should have terrible armor for its size and complexity and massive stability problems, but at least it can function in theory. The Land Raider, on the other hand, would instantly immobilize itself on anything but a high-quality paved road because of its inexcusably bad track design. Even the average parking lot speed bump is a terrifying obstacle for a Land Raider.

Shouldn't the square-cube law instantly kill the AT-AT dead?

Going back to a few ideas a few pages ago about Jedi reflexs and precog.

In Episode 1 - Qui Gon Jin catches Jar Jars tongue in mid flight, during its inital acceleration to target. Assuming its anything like a frogs tongue its an action that takes 15/100 of a second to complete. Not only was the Jedi able to forsee the complete travel of the tongue, but reacted in time to catch it on the launch. Which means he forsaw, reacted, and moved in less than 8/100 of a second.

He also says that the only reason why Anikin can drive a pod is because he can sense the future. It may not be far into the future, but its enough to get a very fast pod in and around obstacle.

During the fight at the beginning of the movie, both the jedi were able to deflect all the blaster bolts from the destroyers back at them, the only reason it was a stale mate was because the blaster shots couldn't prenetrate their own shielding. Thats a lot of control in the fashion of both angle of impact and reflection from moving targets (though not moving very fast)

In Episode 2 during the bar scene while hunting the assassin, Obiwan sense and reacts to the presence of the assassin in which he knew nothing of what they looked like.

In addition in Episode 2 Anikin jumps out of a car knowing the exact path the assassin was going to travel probably before the guy even knew where he was going in the first place. He was able to see distance, speeder speed, fall distance, fall speed, and vector trajectory to land on his target. It also wasn't just a lucky guess as it would appear that he had done it multiple times given Obiwans reaction to him jumping out of the car.

In Episode 5 Luke has a vision of the future in which his friends on Bespin are threatened. While it wasnt a very clear picture for him, Yoda was able to tune into the exact same vision, see a little more, but who knows exactly how much he really did share from what he saw. This shows that Jedi can see the future as a collective as well, its not just individual glimpes and maybes.

And while its hard to show in film or story books in the old Star Wars RPG I used to play as a Jedi advances in level they can raise their battle focus ability, its a passive ability that requires no expenditure on their part. It raises their To Hit modifier and their defense modifier. Just by being there. If we translate that to 40K it would raise their WS, Toughness, and probably save just by personal growth and attunment in the force. So yeah, Masters could easily have higher stat values because the force passively augments them to super human levels. Levels that may take centuries to achieve by slogging through actual combat experience alone.

 raiden wrote:
Was joke, yes


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But If you want to argue it, weak minded could mean anyone without any training in using the force. Ergo, deamons fall under it.

Numerous species in Star Wars are outright immune to mind tricks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Shouldn't the square-cube law instantly kill the AT-AT dead?

Not really. What's going to be worse for an AT-AT is its mass and inability for its legs to counter for any wobble in the transport.

Blizzard One sat on cliff

Blizzard One had a great fall

All the Sith Lord's AT-ST's and all the Sith Lord's Snowtroopers

Couldn't put Blizzard One back together again

The greatest enemy of the AT-AT is cowtipping.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Shouldn't the square-cube law instantly kill the AT-AT dead?

It would be a significant engineering challenge to overcome (just like it would be for 40k walkers), but it's not an impossible one if you have strong enough materials to build it.