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Heres my take. The double demi company comes with a few trash units you just don't want. The chaplain is basically a waste unless you take assault marines and then you are spending 300 points for a middle tier assault squad that could just be another maxed out grav dev squad or centurions - the captain to is sort of a waste though you can make him a beast - wouldn't you rather a libby though?....It actually makes your list weaker IMO under a certain point level. Unfortunately - this points level double demi starts to be effective is above 2000 points. So yeah - CAD is the way to go under 2000 - at least I thought that until I read about the skyhammer formation which is hands down the best formation in the game right now. Pretty sure you gonna be running a CAD with it though.
At like 3000 points though - double demi just becomes absurd.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/17 18:37:03
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Can you squeeze in Skyhammer with double Demi at 1850?
Seems to me that 550 points of free transports more than off sets the middle tier assault squads.
obsidiankatana wrote: Can't you take it standalone, though? It's a formation. Armies can be just formations.
You CAN take it alone, but it probably won't be 1500 or 1750 or 1850 points (whichever you usually play). A CAD is a great way to fill it out with other stuff. You could just take more formations though.
Also no free floating drop pods in the demi, that is a solid reason.
However the formation has me looking at assault cents and if there is more than 2 sources I am thinking I can make a pretty solid list with the marines.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Glitcha wrote: Personally, I think the minimum battle company to get free vehicles that everyone is doing is not as stroke as a full out demi-company. You have 10x 5man tactical squads. Some units you come up against require high volume of shots to deal with and if you take only the minimum you need you will never be able to achieve that.
The reason I would still take a CAD right now is to use some of the other formations in the book. Like the first company detachment. Plus it still gives me access to my FW units.
You could.... target the same squad with multiple units (gasp)... and still take bakes/devs/cents/lascannons real cheap like to where they may be decent
obsidiankatana wrote: Can't you take it standalone, though? It's a formation. Armies can be just formations.
You CAN take it alone, but it probably won't be 1500 or 1750 or 1850 points (whichever you usually play). A CAD is a great way to fill it out with other stuff. You could just take more formations though.
No it's pretty easy to make it fit different points lists.
I actually lost my first game to one that wasn't even optimized with a Tau list I thought was really strong.
Can you squeeze in Skyhammer with double Demi at 1850?
Seems to me that 550 points of free transports more than off sets the middle tier assault squads.
-Matt
Yes. The answer is yes and it would be really good.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/18 09:23:02
If you want to use any Forge World units, you'd need a CAD (or Unbound).
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
People seem to be underestimating the tac squads now they have access to grav cannons.
A Tac squad with grav cannon, combi and free razorback with upgrade to assault cannon puts out upto 5 grav rerolling hits and wounds/pens, 3 grav rerolling hits, 6 bolter shots rerolling hits and 4 tl st6 ap4 rending shots. For 135pts. That is definitely a damage dealer for its points! Of course the rerolling hits applies once or twice if UMs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/21 12:42:19
Poly Ranger wrote: People seem to be underestimating the tac squads now they have access to grav cannons.
A Tac squad with grav cannon, combi and free razorback with upgrade to assault cannon puts out upto 5 grav rerolling hits and wounds/pens, 3 grav rerolling hits, 6 bolter shots rerolling hits and 4 tl st6 ap4 rending shots. For 135pts. That is definitely a damage dealer for its points! Of course the rerolling hits applies once or twice if UMs.
The grav cannons are good but only 12" range and 3 shots when the TAC squads moves. TAC squads really have to move especially with 24" max range weapons. IMO the grav cannon is still actually really good on the TAC squads. I am not sure if it is 35 pts good, but that is what testing is for. You should calculate the pts of that sort of list. I found I couldn't get any AA or dedicated anti tank after the gravs on all the devs and TAC squads at 1850 pts. The 14 grav cannons alone are 490 pts.
But if you give them Raptor CT and either scout or infiltrate, that will only be an issue on the first turn of movement, plus you will almost certainly be within 12" after a 12" scout, 6" move and 6" disembark from the sides. Looking at upto 22-23" forward before 1st turn shots.
I'd been looking at the pricing and I think 4 grav in the dev squads from that formation is a trap, not enough bullet catchers if in a razorback, 2 in a squad I think is a nice number. Means they are slightly less likely to be targetted as well and far cheaper, but still make for a decent threat.
Something like:
3 tac squads with grav cannons and combi-grav
3 tac squads with melta and combi-melta
2 assault squads with mbs 2 dev squads with 2 grav cannons (and signum) each.
10 Razorbacks with assault cannons
Captain with combi-melta (in pod)
Chaplain with auspex (in pod)
3 scout squads 2 with mbs 1 with bolters
FT strike force
Techmarine with combi-melta
Scout squad with mbs Assault squad with 2 melta and combi-melta
Lots of melta (plus a 5 melta pod with auspex for -1 cover), 40 tl st6 rending, 7 grav cannons and 3 combi-grav.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/22 12:13:52
Poly Ranger wrote:But if you give them Raptor CT and either scout or infiltrate, that will only be an issue on the first turn of movement, plus you will almost certainly be within 12" after a 12" scout, 6" move and 6" disembark from the sides. Looking at upto 22-23" forward before 1st turn shots.
Just keep in mind that that forward movement also puts you within range or all the opponent's firepower as well. Also maneouvring that number of rhino hulls can be a real hassel. I would recommend proxying before you buy as when I played the old DKoK siege list with free trojans with all the heavy artillery units I used to find that my 9 Trojans created a huge traffic jam and rarely all got to shoot or move forward.
Poly Ranger wrote:I'd been looking at the pricing and I think 4 grav in the dev squads from that formation is a trap, not enough bullet catchers if in a razorback, 2 in a squad I think is a nice number. Means they are slightly less likely to be targetted as well and far cheaper, but still make for a decent threat.
I agree that a 4 grav cannon unit in a rhino is a waste. However the same unit in a drop pod is actually pretty nasty even with the reduced number of shots for moving.
Poly Ranger wrote:Something like:
3 tac squads with grav cannons and combi-grav
3 tac squads with melta and combi-melta
2 assault squads with mbs 2 dev squads with 2 grav cannons (and signum) each.
10 Razorbacks with assault cannons
Captain with combi-melta (in pod)
Chaplain with auspex (in pod)
3 scout squads 2 with mbs 1 with bolters
FT strike force
Techmarine with combi-melta
Scout squad with mbs Assault squad with 2 melta and combi-melta
Lots of melta (plus a 5 melta pod with auspex for -1 cover), 40 tl st6 rending, 7 grav cannons and 3 combi-grav.
Not bad. You might want to consider diversifying your razor backs so some of them can sit back while the others go forward. This would help your board congestion problems considerably.
I also would consider putting the devs in drop pods instead. Though I guess that probably goes counter to your list concept.
I would note however with 24" and 12" weapons in scouting razorbacks being your entire firepower output you will be lucky to have even half of that able to contribute on the first turn. On the second turn you will probably have given up 5 of your largest threats as you don't have a great deal of durability. The biggest advantage you have is your TAC squads can pop their doctrine repeatedly and still give good damage output. The AsCan are good but being 24" range on a razor means they are very easy to kill or force to snap fire.
You also are going to want to consider counter strategies for servo skulls and counter scouts/infiltrators blocking your own scouting. It would very nearly be a death blow to the army to have to start in their deployment zone and not have a single weapon with range greater than 24".
Oh I won't be buying. Still building up my other forces, got no time for SMs. All theory hammer and list building really.
The idea of the razors is for some to outflank. Multiple st6 rending shots in side and rear armour at the right moment plus the disembarking melta/grav is always gravy.
I've also found on a fair few occassions with my old dex BA that mass multiple vehicles can be a pain - I used to run baals with vindis/preds and a couple of rhinos or LRs... on terrain heavy boards it could be a problem, especially with the LRs.
The Shrike wrote:Nice! Good to hear some optimism. Care to share the list concepts of these CAD-based competitive lists? That was my initial intention for the thread, to put some inspiration out there.
1+2) Scout spam is another very good army list that was placing top tier in GTs and has only gotten better. Usually they are best as Imperial Fists with dev support to open tansports and some AA support. However I am currently liking a off beat Raven Guard list that starts the game with a 2+ cover saves on all of the scouts. Extreme alpha strike lists have become a major thing so being able to completely exclude opponent's from getting within 30" of my important units and leave them shooting 5 man scout units with 2+ cover saves first turn can be a very good thing. I am not sure yet if this is actually better than the other scout spam lists that have placed highly at GTs but trying new stuff is always good.
Spoiler:
Ravenguard SMCAD HQ Librarian (90pts) Mastery Level 2
Troops Scout Squad (145pts) Camo Cloaks, 9x Scouts + Scout Sergeant w/ Combi-weapon, Melta Bombs
Scout Squad (145pts) Camo Cloaks, 9x Scouts + Scout Sergeant w/ Combi-weapon, Melta Bombs
Scout Squad (145pts) Camo Cloaks, 9x Scouts + Scout Sergeant w/ Combi-weapon, Melta Bombs
Scout Squad (145pts) Camo Cloaks, 9x Scouts + Scout Sergeant w/ Combi-weapon, Melta Bombs
Scout Squad (145pts) Camo Cloaks, 9x Scouts + Scout Sergeant w/ Combi-weapon, Melta Bombs
Scout Squad (145pts) Camo Cloaks, 9x Scouts + Scout Sergeant w/ Combi-weapon, Melta Bombs
Heavy Support Fire Raptor Gunship (225pts) Two Turret-mounted TL-Autocannons
Relic Sicaran Battle Tank (160pts) Schism of Mars
Thunderfire Cannon (100pts)
Lord of War Typhon Heavy Siege Tank (405pts) Armoured Ceramite, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters
3) White Scars are still excellent. However I think the old bike star list will either have to depend on a libby conclave to buff their durability or white scars should move more toward MSU to limit the damage from heavy alpha strike lists. My current list which I haven't gotten to test is in the spoiler but I really think that white scars + allies would be better to take advantage of the drop pods with skitarii vanguard in them or cult mech destroyers. Alternately I have been thinking of taking grav cents in pods with melta on the bike units. It is just too early for me to settle. One of the strong points of the list below is that 70% of the time this list is going to have 2+ jink saves due to shrouding from the libby conclave on a significant number of the bikes. It can also strip some cover using auspex. Overall I would say my list is probably on the weaker side of what white scars can do.
Spoiler:
White Scars CAD HQ Kor'Sarro Khan (150pts) Moondrakken
Troops Bike Squad (93pts) 2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker + Sarge
Bike Squad (93pts) 2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker + Sarge
Bike Squad (93pts) 2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker + Sarge
Bike Squad (93pts) 2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker + Sarge
Bike Squad (93pts) 2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker + Sarge
Bike Squad (93pts) 2x Grav-gun, 2x Space Marine Biker + Sarge
Fast Attack Attack Bike Squadron (100pts) 2x Attack Bike w/ MM Attack Bike Squadron (100pts) 2x Attack Bike w/ MM Attack Bike Squadron (100pts) 2x Attack Bike w/ MM Heavy Support Fire Raptor Gunship * (225pts) Two Turret-mounted Autocannons
Relic Sicaran Battle Tank * (160pts) Schism of Mars
Thunderfire Cannon (100pts)
Libby Conclave Librarian (115pts) Auspex, Mastery Level 2, Space Marine Bike
Librarian (120pts) Auspex, Mastery Level 2, Melta Bombs, Space Marine Bike
Librarian (120pts) Auspex, Mastery Level 2, Melta Bombs, Space Marine Bike
4) Is of course the grav centurion star. Though IMO the new librarius version of it is significantly more powerful than it was before. If you play UM you can even ensure at least 1 turn of reroll to hit. This army got significantly better in the fact that scouts and pretty much all the support units for this deathstar got better, cheaper, or didn't change. My version of this list is in the spoiler though the tried and true version uses draigo instead of the libbies;
I will try to remember some of the other really good lists I have seen. Of course you can always rent drop pods to the other high damage armies utilizing the superior SM troops instead of the in comparison mediocre troops of the other drop pod rental services. Imagine taking white scars bikes to unlock drop pods for skitarii or getting tiggy as your "tax" HQ so you can get 3 drop pods full of skitarii vanguard, cult mech, or IG.
Wouldn't ravenguard bikes get a 2+ jink save turn one?
Words of wisdom by Prophet40k
That game put my faith in Khorne to the test. My table-neighbor looked at the match up and said "Here you're going to need these more than I will" and handed me a bag of Jello shots. They must have pleased Khorne because I walked out 11-2.
Now looking at another list with MORE tyrants and MORE mawlocks, I said to myself. "Oh well looks like it's time for another beer. It'll take the sting out of this. LOL"
The Ravenwing Formation is awesome because it lets you combine the best of DA with the best of SM (using a CAD) like never before.
So a bunch of Iron Hands scouts, in ruins (supported by a nightshroud of course) for backfield control, a Fire Raptor for air support and a few thunderfires for crowd control, and then all the black knights you can afford. Nasty. What do you do? Hang back and try to push wounds through 2+ cover on pretty cheap models? Or get eaten alive by 30 or so Black Knights that you can't overwatch, shoot you in the face with plasma, debuff you, HOW you, then hit you with 4 S5 rending attacks. Each.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Phoenix wrote:Well I don't think the battle company would do much to bolster the ranks of my eldar army so no.
Nonsense. The Battle Company box is perfect for filling out your ranks of aspect warriors with a large contingent from the Screaming Baldies shrine.
The Shrike wrote: So, for those of us who care about competitive optimization, the Gladius Strikeforce Detachment seems overwhelming. Have people thought of lists that would be compelling in a GT environment that still utilize a CAD? What are they? What is worth giving up 350-550 (minimum!) points of free transports for?
Yup, in any format where kps are big I dont think the gladius works, while I will be using a Gladius during nova, once I shift to itc practice I plan on sifting to a cad++ build.
Leth wrote: It's basically ultras and white scars again in regards to chapter tactics. The doctrines are just so good now......
But you bleed kps in the gladius and its really difficult to kill things (which is fine in nova format, but I am unsure about the gladius in itc format)
You want Ob Sec units, without being locked into paying a bunch of points for certain other units.
At certain points you want control over what your obsec units are, what other units you have, and how big they are, and you are not going to get that with a gladius under 2k.
zgort wrote: Maybe a bit off topic but if you don't have the models to make free transports worth it, CAD will be your game until you get enough rhinos/razorbacks
I am not so sure about that. I will be running a gladius with just one Demi company for the OS and ability to get best use of my collection of SMurfs. 3 Uses of each Tactical doctrine is going to be really useful when mainly playing power armor units.
the full battle company sounds good, but let's look at the requirements for a moment shall we? you need to take 2 demi companies and an auxillery.
this means 1 captain (bare bones)
6x 5 man tac squads
2 devestator squads (we'll assume they've got multi meltas as this list is gonna be short on anti-tank firepower and MMs are pretty cheap)
2 Bike Squads (hey bare bones they're dirt cheap)
10th company task force auxillery
3 scout bike squads (yet again going for cheap)
and the devestators and taticals get razorbacks
so this list goes for about 948 points.
I'm pretty sure I could design a 1000 point list that could shread this.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: the full battle company sounds good, but let's look at the requirements for a moment shall we? you need to take 2 demi companies and an auxillery.
this means 1 captain (bare bones)
6x 5 man tac squads
2 devestator squads (we'll assume they've got multi meltas as this list is gonna be short on anti-tank firepower and MMs are pretty cheap)
2 Bike Squads (hey bare bones they're dirt cheap)
10th company task force auxillery
3 scout bike squads (yet again going for cheap)
and the devestators and taticals get razorbacks
so this list goes for about 948 points.
I'm pretty sure I could design a 1000 point list that could shread this.
A Battle company is not going to be good for 1000 points list. That is were a Demi company or even just a CAD is going to be better. At 1850 to 2000 points suddenly that ~550 points of free Armor for a battle company will make a difference.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/26 22:43:21
So this formation is idiot proof and super strong with a million obsec units. If you lose with it a lot it's probably not the lists fault. The only reason not to take it is that the game will be boring. So much movement phase
so no.
"And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels" 
