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I own 4 armies, and enjoy playing all of them. Now I could take renegades until the end of my days, but that would eventually get boring.

Now since my cheapest model in my BA force is an 11pt scout and I prefer to take a DC and SG list. Especially since BA don't have affordable bubble wrap. How on earth do I survive a skyhammer as my BA? Or my CSMs for that matter? Or DA if I owned them?

I ask this in a new thread as I am not orks, IG, nids or eldar. Who all seem to be the 'solution' that prove it is a 'fair' formation. How then, without these, do I not auto lose against 40 shots which have a 8/9 chance of hitting and a 8/9 chance of wounding against 3+ and a 35/36 chance of wounding against 2+? Especially when the backbone of my army is 23 or 33pt models.
On top of that, BA need the charge. How do I prevent GtG and/or being charged by the skyhammer AMs?
How do I do all this at 910pts so the rest of my force isn't disadvantaged againt the rest of their points? There is no point in me spending 1500pts to counter it as the rest will wreck me.
So without reference to orks, IG, Nids or 36" range scat bikes... how do I counter it and not lose 99 times out of 100?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suppose SoB and SWs could be thrown into that list too. And maybe GKs.

CSM actually does have units to bubble wrap with. They could use cultists to block access to key units.

Transports help as well, as does castling in a corner. Unless their army also features lots of thunderfire cannons, you can arrange it so that the enemy risks scattering off the board or getting in their own way. Also, if they make the mistake of putting the drop pods down first, then the assault squads might scatter into their own troops and mishap.

 Spellbound wrote:
CSM actually does have units to bubble wrap with. They could use cultists to block access to key units.

Transports help as well, as does castling in a corner. Unless their army also features lots of thunderfire cannons, you can arrange it so that the enemy risks scattering off the board or getting in their own way. Also, if they make the mistake of putting the drop pods down first, then the assault squads might scatter into their own troops and mishap.

Yeah, cultists are great. One of the best units CSM have and using them as bubble wrap is a great solution.

I usually join a chaos lord to them to make them fearless. In this case, it's probably best to leave him out so that they're almost sure to run away and be swept, allowing you to shoot back at the attackers.

 Spellbound wrote:
I usually join a chaos lord to them to make them fearless. In this case, it's probably best to leave him out so that they're almost sure to run away and be swept, allowing you to shoot back at the attackers.

gtg at the begining of the shooting phase. If they dont get shot, join the chaos lord to them and they automatically get up due to gaining fearless.

True, but they can't move any further. It does allow them to shoot normally, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Having a chaos lord joined to a squad like a havoc squad or devastator squad to prevent them being forced into gtg by the dev squads, then moving over to join a different one that got forced into it by the devs would be good, too.

I've got more than enough cultists to do so since I also have renegades. But aside from the cultist tax if not taking CSM squads, I don't particularly like taking more cultists than needed as I find it a waste. Especially in comparison to renegades since I started playing them. Taking enough cultists to make a 24" diameter bubble around everything important will be a heavy point investment even at their cost and have very little damage output to make up for said cost. I suppose it is definitely an option but don't like how it forces a huge change of playstyle, from attacking CSMs to horde gunline.
The chaos lord is a good idea. However if 4 grav cannons shoot at a havoc squad, there will be little, if anything left to get back up from the ground.

Any suggestions for BA (or DA/SW/SoB)?

Dark Angels have double deredeo autocannons as our solution. If he drops their interceptor will blast them out of the sky and cause incredible damage to the formation. It would effectively halve their possible damage output. This doesn't solve the problem
But it dramatically hurts it's combat effectiveness.

The deathwings ability to deathwing assault also means we have ways of mopping up the leftovers with ease.

Dark Angels would laugh at skyhammer.

Remember the devs are coming down in a pod so can spread out. So that 5" interceptor plasma blast will be killing 3 or 4 tops, and if the skyhammer player has anything about them, they will be making sure its just bolter marines. Not trying to be awkward - just saying how the skyhammer player will get around a 5" blast.

Chaos spawn with the mark of nurgle bubble wrap and a heldrake.

I would take a raider and put my death star in that and have the spawn around that. This way if the raider pops still the spawn will block assaults.

Spawns a cracking idea! Raider will still go down too easily to grav but the spawn bubble wrapping to prevent assault rather than shots is a good way to look at it.

Any one at all able to come up with a solution for BA? Or is it a formation that just makes a game almost impossible for BA (and similar PA armies) to win? If so, can we really say the formation is balanced?

Poly Ranger wrote:
Spawns a cracking idea! Raider will still go down too easily to grav but the spawn bubble wrapping to prevent assault rather than shots is a good way to look at it.

Any one at all able to come up with a solution for BA? Or is it a formation that just makes a game almost impossible for BA (and similar PA armies) to win? If so, can we really say the formation is balanced?

Funny thing to say, because, "balanced with what?" would be what I'd ask. Some formations are stellar, others are awful. And some factions don't even have formations yet. Assuming you're only taking 1 Skyhammer (if you go by ITC and not take duplicate formations), a single skyhammer surely isn't going to wipe out a BA army. It will take out more than it's fair share of points on the alpha strike, but then again, so often does flesh tearers. You could always take Hunters/Stalkers to shoot the pods out before they land, I guess.

And I know you're not a guy that likes allies, but that's the name of the game since 7e landed, especially for Imperium (but Eldar/DE too). Allies and formations to bring out synergies and combinations that are superior to what armies can have by themselves.

Philosophically though, the armies of GW fall into 4 categories -- top tier, which would include Eldar, Necron, AdMech, Space Marines, Imperial Knights. Then, competitive, which would include Tau, Space Wovles. Competitive with Allies, which include Grey Knights and Blood Angels. And finally weak, which include Orks, Tyranid, Dark Eldar, CSM and Imperial Guard. I really have no experience against Chaos Demons, Dark Angels drops next week, and Sisters is so dated nobody would even know if you cheated and made up rules (Oh, yes, the way this works is she rolls 12 dice, if she gets two sixes, she can remove any model from the table. See it says so right here on this illegible table. Uh.... Okay?).

Even so, Tyranid have a single great unit (Flyrants), and heck an Ork player won a recent tournament, and in describing his strategy, it seems pretty sound. Whodathot, right?

I have great sympathy for those who bought into an army that is just uncompetitive in the current meta and edition (Imperial Guard, CSM and Orks, mostly...). But even so, you can have a lot of fun; you're just not likely to be winning a ton of tournaments, and your friends need to dial it down a notch. My advice to anyone starting is a it has been for 20+ years -- if you want to play it safe, pick Eldar or Space Marines, because these were the basic "good guys" at the inception of the game, and have always been solid, and playable, if not "best".

I'm not sure how I'd deal with it with my BA honestly other than trying to play the reserves game and going 2nd so that the hammer comes in before my turn 2 guys.
Maybe fortifications since grav can't really mess with them?
Void shield generator and fill up the void area?

Other than that I think I'd just hope he's at a much lower skill level than me as a player, or has offended the dice gods recently. If neither of those are true, then I'm probably boned.

I really think castling is the way to go. Try it sometime, deploy in a corner with a couple units spread out for cover. Put one WAY forward and another huddled in the corner. The assault squads are likely going to be quite far away from the unit in the corner, which will get a guaranteed cover save from the Devs that try to shoot it. He also risks mishaps more when trying to get to where he can get to you reliably.

Alternatively, if you had 4 units spare, you could force him to either split up or have too much in one area by occupying both corners of your deployment zone.

Also, if you take a few rhinos, you can deploy out of them and behind them. Devs with grav can't explode tanks, they just wreck them, and assault squads can't charge what they can't see.

 Spellbound wrote:

Also, if you take a few rhinos, you can deploy out of them and behind them. Devs with grav can't explode tanks, they just wreck them, and assault squads can't charge what they can't see.

This is the answer. Circle the wagons. Cheap transports and vehicles to block line of sight. Give up a few 35 point rhinos to get those guys on the ground, and then go to town.
Or cheap skimmers with jink and stealth (thank you raiders), loaded up with some beefy guys (grotesques, incubi, scorpions, banshees, dark reapers).
Jokes on you grav cannons, I pretty much don't have armor.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Spawns a cracking idea! Raider will still go down too easily to grav but the spawn bubble wrapping to prevent assault rather than shots is a good way to look at it.

Any one at all able to come up with a solution for BA? Or is it a formation that just makes a game almost impossible for BA (and similar PA armies) to win? If so, can we really say the formation is balanced?

Running your own crazy formation that lets you assault from deepstrike? I know that formation is a good deal more cumbersome, but its a possibilty at least. Cover is still a thing so hug it.

Plasma Obliterator
Coteaz
Rune Priest with Helm of Durfast.

Poof.

The devs (which are what we're worried about) would have to pod withjn 12" of it though which seems unlikely given their 24" range. Does create a somewhat useful no flyzone for the devs, but how much is that unit? And is it useful enough to bring in a TAC list?

Even on 6+ saves grav cannon devs are hitting about 5-7wounds.

That being said, taking a 3 whirlwind unit is cheap, effective and easy even with a skyhammer formation.

Not to mention other goodies

Even if they only use one of the formations if they are smart they will put 10 dev squads in, and use the combat squad ones with no heavy weapons to force units to GtG.

Assault squads tie up any shooting units not dead or GtG. Or, vs an assault army, charge to prevent charges.

All of this around 900 pts, you have 4 5 man ASM squads tieing up in assault. (Which have re-roll to hit if you were smart and used assault doctrine T1, and used cherubs for the devs)
Two units very likely to have been forced to GtG, two key, deadly units dead from grav, any smaller shooting threats tied up/dead and remaining units to give cover/block charges for the grav cannons.

And yeah, I can still take 600 more pts in 1500

 astro_nomicon wrote:
The devs (which are what we're worried about) would have to pod withjn 12" of it though which seems unlikely given their 24" range. Does create a somewhat useful no flyzone for the devs, but how much is that unit? And is it useful enough to bring in a TAC list?

A plasma oblit with Rune Priest does great work. I was melting squads with it every turn in a recent tournament. 7" Blast with Reroll Misses, Ignores Cover S7 AP2 is nothing to laugh at. Points are 230 for the PO and 80 for the RP with Helm. Coteaz adds 100 and if you're not against a drop pod list you can put him somewhere else to use divination.

If you voluntarily go to ground against the dev shots, the assault squads don't get their rerolls to hit and to wound, do they?

 Spellbound wrote:
If you voluntarily go to ground against the dev shots, the assault squads don't get their rerolls to hit and to wound, do they?

Right.

 pretre wrote:

 Spellbound wrote:
If you voluntarily go to ground against the dev shots, the assault squads don't get their rerolls to hit and to wound, do they?

Right.

yes, it seems that voluntarily gtg is going to be the rage if the assault squads are nearby.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spellbound wrote:
I really think castling is the way to go. Try it sometime, deploy in a corner with a couple units spread out for cover. Put one WAY forward and another huddled in the corner. The assault squads are likely going to be quite far away from the unit in the corner, which will get a guaranteed cover save from the Devs that try to shoot it. He also risks mishaps more when trying to get to where he can get to you reliably.

Alternatively, if you had 4 units spare, you could force him to either split up or have too much in one area by occupying both corners of your deployment zone.

Also, if you take a few rhinos, you can deploy out of them and behind them. Devs with grav can't explode tanks, they just wreck them, and assault squads can't charge what they can't see.

with a void shield generator.

Yeah, I think Grav is a bad idea for SAF. If you take Melta instead, you can take two SAF at 1850. (Not at ITC, obviously.)

 pretre wrote:
Yeah, I think Grav is a bad idea for SAF. If you take Melta instead, you can take two SAF at 1850. (Not at ITC, obviously.)

Or one grav one melta, just take the min squads of 5, maybe put an extra wound on your grav devs if you have the points.

 pretre wrote:
Plasma Obliterator
Coteaz
Rune Priest with Helm of Durfast.

Poof.

Have a CAD with Mantis Warriors, two scout squads in speeders and some dev Cents with grav cannons. Warlord is Ahazra Redth. Give interceptor to his unit.

 NightWrench wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Plasma Obliterator
Coteaz
Rune Priest with Helm of Durfast.

Poof.

Have a CAD with Mantis Warriors, two scout squads in speeders and some dev Cents with grav cannons. Warlord is Ahazra Redth. Give interceptor to his unit.

Interceptor's just one time. Coteaz is every time.

Coteaz won't do anything. It's 12" from the model itself, not his unit. No one will ever get hit by his special rule, short of the enemy scattering into him or them forgetting about Coteaz's special rule. So tired of seeing Coteaz as a counter option. He's not. The formation itself isn't that scary. Just deploy and play smart. Deployment will make or break a game though.

Deploy poorly, Skyhammer wins. Deploy correctly, Skyhammer will kill a few things, then you get to retaliate. There is no way, the formation can kill over 950+ points in 1 turn.

Saythings wrote:
Coteaz won't do anything. It's 12" from the model itself, not his unit. No one will ever get hit by his special rule, short of the enemy scattering into him or them forgetting about Coteaz's special rule. So tired of seeing Coteaz as a counter option. He's not. The formation itself isn't that scary. Just deploy and play smart. Deployment will make or break a game though.

Deploy poorly, Skyhammer wins. Deploy correctly, Skyhammer will kill a few things, then you get to retaliate. There is no way, the formation can kill over 950+ points in 1 turn.

Umm. You crazy. 12" from Coteaz is a big bubble. Especially inside a Plasma Oblit.

Just don't deepstrike next to them? 24" Grav, 24" MM, 36" Plasma Cannon, 48"(?) Lascannons. If they have their entire army in that 12" bubble, then they give away a large amount of board control. Not to mention you can just come in T2.