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Race2Pay2Win is pretty damn stupid. The level of damns I give about someone using a downloaded copy of these rules is so low I act as a black hole of damns and make other people near me give less of a damn.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nope; you didn't buy it and it's still available?

You don't get to play it. After it's No Longer Available--fine, whatever.

You're trolling right?

Play what you want dude, don't play guys like this

I'm pretty laid back actually when it comes to allowing things.

However, I have no interest in playing some schmuck who comes in with a crummy scan of the "new hotness" and an entire army of Ultra Blood Wolves--which is what formations like Skyhammer encouraged.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nope; you didn't buy it and it's still available?

You don't get to play it. After it's No Longer Available--fine, whatever.

You're trolling right?

Play what you want dude, don't play guys like this

I'm pretty laid back actually when it comes to allowing things.

However, I have no interest in playing some schmuck who comes in with a crummy scan of the "new hotness" and an entire army of Ultra Blood Wolves--which is what formations like Skyhammer encouraged.

But it would be okay if the same schmuck with the same Ultra Blood Wolf army came with the same rules but had some sort of proof that he dropped $300+?

I don't care how they obtained the rules, so long as they have a physical copy that I can review so I know it's legit.

People have had the models for the Skyhammer formation for a long time, so why should they suddenly have to go out and buy more just to use the models they already have in a formation?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nope; you didn't buy it and it's still available?

You don't get to play it. After it's No Longer Available--fine, whatever.

You're trolling right?

Play what you want dude, don't play guys like this

I'm pretty laid back actually when it comes to allowing things.

However, I have no interest in playing some schmuck who comes in with a crummy scan of the "new hotness" and an entire army of Ultra Blood Wolves--which is what formations like Skyhammer encouraged.

But it would be okay if the same schmuck with the same Ultra Blood Wolf army came with the same rules but had some sort of proof that he dropped $300+?

Yeah, because then I'll know he's someone who spent $300+ for an "edge" in a game.

I guess everything is overpowered to you that is strong isn't it? It seems like your using it as an excuse not to play it because either your scared to face or just don't like it, either way your definitely coming off with a negative attitude about the whole thing.

 gmaleron wrote:
I guess everything is overpowered to you that is strong isn't it? It seems like your using it as an excuse not to play it because either your scared to face or just don't like it, either way your definitely coming off with a negative attitude about the whole thing.

Should there be a positive attitude for a pay to win, overpowered formation?

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nope; you didn't buy it and it's still available?

You don't get to play it. After it's No Longer Available--fine, whatever.

But... they get sold out in like 4 days


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
I guess everything is overpowered to you that is strong isn't it? It seems like your using it as an excuse not to play it because either your scared to face or just don't like it, either way your definitely coming off with a negative attitude about the whole thing.

It's much more reasonable to simply say, "I can't compete with the House of Teryn formation, so I'll pass if you don't have anything else to field. Kinda like, "I don't feel like playing 7 wave serpents... pass."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:

Should there be a positive attitude for a pay to win, overpowered formation?

No need to buy the datasheet. Buy me a box of devastators, and I'll let you win

Buy me an imperial knight, and I'll let you win and make it look like I tried really hard and lost in a crushing defeat!

 gmaleron wrote:
I guess everything is overpowered to you that is strong isn't it? It seems like your using it as an excuse not to play it because either your scared to face or just don't like it, either way your definitely coming off with a negative attitude about the whole thing.

But it IS stupidly op. There's being irrationally wrong, then there is being mad because the dictator of north Korea is killing his people. Justifiable anger isn't wrong. Don't hold that in

In casual play, bring whatever you want as long as they are official rules. I don't care if it is a scanned codex or whatever.

But in a competitive environment, it better be the original copy, either GW-distributed PDF or hardcopy. No other sources, such as scans or photocopies will suffice.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
In casual play, bring whatever you want as long as they are official rules. I don't care if it is a scanned codex or whatever.

But in a competitive environment, it better be the original copy, either GW-distributed PDF or hardcopy. No other sources, such as scans or photocopies will suffice.

Why would it matter where it came from? Are only the rich and quick allowed to benefit from the new rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Nope; you didn't buy it and it's still available?

You don't get to play it. After it's No Longer Available--fine, whatever.

You're trolling right?

Play what you want dude, don't play guys like this

I'm pretty laid back actually when it comes to allowing things.

However, I have no interest in playing some schmuck who comes in with a crummy scan of the "new hotness" and an entire army of Ultra Blood Wolves--which is what formations like Skyhammer encouraged.

But it would be okay if the same schmuck with the same Ultra Blood Wolf army came with the same rules but had some sort of proof that he dropped $300+?

Yeah, because then I'll know he's someone who spent $300+ for an "edge" in a game.

Fair enough.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
In casual play, bring whatever you want as long as they are official rules. I don't care if it is a scanned codex or whatever.

But in a competitive environment, it better be the original copy, either GW-distributed PDF or hardcopy. No other sources, such as scans or photocopies will suffice.

Why would it matter where it came from? Are only the rich and quick allowed to benefit from the new rules?

For the same reason someone that pirated a video game shouldn't be able to play said game online. The limited nature of these rules has no bearing on whether or not pirated copies don't belong in tournaments. If you want to play a casual game with them, I don't care, but if I was organizing a tournament, it would be official rules only. This is especially important as it limits the ability for people to doctor or alter the rules.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
In casual play, bring whatever you want as long as they are official rules. I don't care if it is a scanned codex or whatever.

But in a competitive environment, it better be the original copy, either GW-distributed PDF or hardcopy. No other sources, such as scans or photocopies will suffice.

Why would it matter where it came from? Are only the rich and quick allowed to benefit from the new rules?

I have no problem with that. Sure a Kardashian or a Hilton can afford the rules, but they can be counted on to be too stupid to use it well.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
In casual play, bring whatever you want as long as they are official rules. I don't care if it is a scanned codex or whatever.

But in a competitive environment, it better be the original copy, either GW-distributed PDF or hardcopy. No other sources, such as scans or photocopies will suffice.

Why would it matter where it came from? Are only the rich and quick allowed to benefit from the new rules?

For the same reason someone that pirated a video game shouldn't be able to play said game online. The limited nature of these rules has no bearing on whether or not pirated copies don't belong in tournaments. If you want to play a casual game with them, I don't care, but if I was organizing a tournament, it would be official rules only. This is especially important as it limits the ability for people to doctor or alter the rules.

I can doctor a legitimately obtained copy of the rules too especially if they were in a digital format. Moreover, in this new age of the internet it is easy to check whether the formation rules being presented by a player are on the up and up.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
In casual play, bring whatever you want as long as they are official rules. I don't care if it is a scanned codex or whatever.

But in a competitive environment, it better be the original copy, either GW-distributed PDF or hardcopy. No other sources, such as scans or photocopies will suffice.

Why would it matter where it came from? Are only the rich and quick allowed to benefit from the new rules?

I have no problem with that. Sure a Kardashian or a Hilton can afford the rules, but they can be counted on to be too stupid to use it well.

Here is what I see could happen. People will freak out thinking that EVERYONE will be playing the Skyspear, since it isn't hard to get on the field. Then, EVERYONE will build their armies in a way that can best counter the Skyspear. What I am going to do is build my army to counter the people trying to counter the Skyspear.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:


But in a competitive environment, it better be the original copy, either GW-distributed PDF or hardcopy. No other sources, such as scans or photocopies will suffice.

The person using their rules doesn't have to prove their innocence, you have to prove their guilt. Unless all the 200 copies have some secret verification method or you bought all the bundles yourself, good luck trying to prove that my copy isn't authentic. How do you reckon you'd be able to determine whether a high quality copy is not from the internet? Or if you have a really crappy photocopier and you can only take slightly blurry (but entirely readable) black and white copies of your precious original?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If you want to play a casual game with them, I don't care, but if I was organizing a tournament, it would be official rules only. This is especially important as it limits the ability for people to doctor or alter the rules.

This is really easy for you to state because in all likelihood you're not orgamizing any tournaments.Also, has there been a single instance of this policy actually being in effect? A tournament or event that requires you to bring your receipts with you?

Yarrr, wut's da problem 'ere, gitz?

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:


But in a competitive environment, it better be the original copy, either GW-distributed PDF or hardcopy. No other sources, such as scans or photocopies will suffice.

The person using their rules doesn't have to prove their innocence, you have to prove their guilt. Unless all the 200 copies have some secret verification method or you bought all the bundles yourself, good luck trying to prove that my copy isn't authentic. How do you reckon you'd be able to determine whether a high quality copy is not from the internet? Or if you have a really crappy photocopier and you can only take slightly blurry (but entirely readable) black and white copies of your precious original?

In a friendly setting, you're just talking yourself out of a game, and in a competitive setting, the organizer is just putting up an annoying barrier to entry that is impractical to police.

Besides, you have to ask yourself: is it that you dislike 'piracy', that you're afraid of rules doctoring, that you don't like formations or that you don't like SOME formations?

If it's some kind of moral objection to photocopied data slates, I haven't ever seen an objection, even in a GW store (I guess the assumption is, you bought the models if nothing else), but at least you have some reasonable objection. The rest is pretty much bunk. The rules are really easy to verify online, and more to the point, if it's a formation you don't like, you probably already know what you don't like about it. If you don't like formations in general (and the fact that GW spits them out every month now faster than you can keep track) it's kinda too bad because that is just the nature of the game now, and a lot of people DO like them. If you don't like ONE formation, just don't play against it. No sense in dying 20 times in a row to a Decurion, right?

No matter how you cut it, Lammikkovalas' point is pretty valid. You can't assume that everyone with photocopies is a content pirate or cheater, and the burden of proof should not be upon the player with the copy. I play with one mini BRB, my own codex if it's new, and a binder with photocopies of everything else useful, such as formations and the reference pages out of the back of every codex (which I've purchased, not that it should matter). While some data slates come as single sheets, a lot come in campaign books and white dwarf issues. Either way, I'm not gonna 3-hole punch the originals.

 Talys wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:


But in a competitive environment, it better be the original copy, either GW-distributed PDF or hardcopy. No other sources, such as scans or photocopies will suffice.

The person using their rules doesn't have to prove their innocence, you have to prove their guilt. Unless all the 200 copies have some secret verification method or you bought all the bundles yourself, good luck trying to prove that my copy isn't authentic. How do you reckon you'd be able to determine whether a high quality copy is not from the internet? Or if you have a really crappy photocopier and you can only take slightly blurry (but entirely readable) black and white copies of your precious original?

In a friendly setting, you're just talking yourself out of a game, and in a competitive setting, the organizer is just putting up an annoying barrier to entry that is impractical to police.

Besides, you have to ask yourself: is it that you dislike 'piracy', that you're afraid of rules doctoring, that you don't like formations or that you don't like SOME formations?

If it's some kind of moral objection to photocopied data slates, I haven't ever seen an objection, even in a GW store (I guess the assumption is, you bought the models if nothing else), but at least you have some reasonable objection. The rest is pretty much bunk. The rules are really easy to verify online, and more to the point, if it's a formation you don't like, you probably already know what you don't like about it. If you don't like formations in general (and the fact that GW spits them out every month now faster than you can keep track) it's kinda too bad because that is just the nature of the game now, and a lot of people DO like them. If you don't like ONE formation, just don't play against it. No sense in dying 20 times in a row to a Decurion, right?

No matter how you cut it, Lammikkovalas' point is pretty valid. You can't assume that everyone with photocopies is a content pirate or cheater, and the burden of proof should not be upon the player with the copy. I play with one mini BRB, my own codex if it's new, and a binder with photocopies of everything else useful, such as formations and the reference pages out of the back of every codex (which I've purchased, not that it should matter). While some data slates come as single sheets, a lot come in campaign books and white dwarf issues. Either way, I'm not gonna 3-hole punch the originals.

You've extrapolated a lot of bs from one line. I couldn't give two gaks about what rules-legal formations allow. I don't play competitive. But I do think that the burden IS on the player to show that they are on the up and up. This is a limited edition thing, and the people that actually pay for it should be the ones using it, just like the people who buy the codex should be the ones using it. Just because something pirated is widely available, doesn't make it legal or kosher or right to use. This is full-on internet douchebag "I AM ENTITLED TO EVERYTHING BECAUSE INTERNET" at its finest. You are not entitled to gak.

Whatever encourages GW to end this exclusive bs is what i'm for. Personally, I don't care what the power level of the formation is, or if you have legit hard copy rules or not. I'm not playing against these formations, or in events that allow them.

@casvalramdikum - then we simply have an uneeconcilable difference on the way rules work. In my thinking, a rule is a rule whether I or another player has purchased it or not. You believe that someone made a purchase to make it valid.

I'd argue that in the case of this one formation, you can read the formation off of GW 's website so it's irrelevant. But more generally speaking, you have lots of formations that are in magazines and supplements. Do you truly require all the people who play with you bring all their original magazines and supplements? That seems silly to me.

Also, I know plenty of people who play Flesh Tearers for the pods, who have not bought Shield of Baal. Would you have the, ejected from competitive play?

Anyhow, do what you want. Play with whom you wish. To me, it's not about 'entitlement'. I don't believe that the few hundred bundles that were sold of a web exclusive (which didn't charge for the formation, by the way) are the only ones allowed to play the formation. I don't even believe that GW thinks this, and I've never seen a rule that states it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Whatever encourages GW to end this exclusive bs is what i'm for. Personally, I don't care what the power level of the formation is, or if you have legit hard copy rules or not. I'm not playing against these formations, or in events that allow them.

See, this is an opinion I can respect

Although I disagree with it, at least until we see how powerful it is. Because, it's not nearly as good as, for example a Necron Decurion.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
This is full-on internet douchebag "I AM ENTITLED TO EVERYTHING BECAUSE INTERNET" at its finest. You are not entitled to gak.

At the same time, you are saying that person A is entitled to it, when person B is not, simply because person A has more disposable income available to them at the time the formation becomes available. If they were not limited editions, I wouldn't have nearly the problem with it that I do, as someone could at least save up to buy it.

This is still a sense of entitlement, just a different flavor.

@Maelstrom808 - any LE worth a crap is gone before preorder is over, so being on vacation or even being sick could cost ya in that respect LOL.

But seriously, I would like to see the Dataslate that reads, 'This formation is only valid when the original Dataslate is presented.'

Well, not really, because some ass will buy all the web bundles, then sell the data slates on eBay for $400.

Like I said, if it wasn't LE, it'd be no big deal. Powerful or not, it's a despicable practice imo.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
This is full-on internet douchebag "I AM ENTITLED TO EVERYTHING BECAUSE INTERNET" at its finest. You are not entitled to gak.

At the same time, you are saying that person A is entitled to it, when person B is not, simply because person A has more disposable income available to them at the time the formation becomes available. If they were not limited editions, I wouldn't have nearly the problem with it that I do, as someone could at least save up to buy it.

This is still a sense of entitlement, just a different flavor.

Yes, in the same way I am saying Person A is entitled to their BMW because they have more disposable income whereas Person B who has not purchased a BMW is not. I will agree very much so that the fact there is even limited edition stuff that isn't available in another form (Codices are fine, since the LE stuff is just fun to have) is crap and should not exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:
@Maelstrom808 - any LE worth a crap is gone before preorder is over, so being on vacation or even being sick could cost ya in that respect LOL.

But seriously, I would like to see the Dataslate that reads, 'This formation is only valid when the original Dataslate is presented.'

Well, not really, because some ass will buy all the web bundles, then sell the data slates on eBay for $400.

Tell me about it, my other hobby is Transformers. Some donkey-cave bought up all of ONE of the limbs to one of the combiners, made it a pain to get him.

themadlbb wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I feel that if you're going to use them, you should own a legit copy. This applies to all rules, including big book and codices. The exception is for trialing something new, and using a group/club copy.

In general I'd agree with you.

In this circumstance, don't you think it is prohibitively difficult to actually get the physical copy of the rules? Of all of the players of 40K in all the world, only a few hundred will end up owning a copy. This is not a matter of buying a rulebook, since if you are able to run the formation you have already paid the monetary requirements to play it (the actual rules are free with the purchase of the web bundle). Thus, we would be limiting it essentially to the people who had the money to buy a set of models within a very short period of time. If they sold the rules separately, I'd be behind you in saying that you need to buy them if you want to use them. In this case, I'd say that a verified scan would do just fine.

Don't mind me just changing all attacks to Strenght D *hits print* runs rules trough a laminator. What? printing is fine so no one will mind some house ruling proxied as official rules aswell.

I will admit that I am shocked - shocked! - at all the hypocrisy here from Americans who think they, the culture that[ i]defines[/i] itself as "only the financially adept and hard-working can have nice things" have any right whatsoever to get rules for free!

Of course, as a commie-socialist-hippie Brit, I have no compunction against the power being in the hands of the people.

(yes, this post is sarcastic as heck)

 Bishop F Gantry wrote:


Don't mind me just changing all attacks to Strenght D *hits print* runs rules trough a laminator. What? printing is fine so no one will mind some house ruling proxied as official rules aswell.

So THAT'S how official rules are made? Why didn't anyone tell me this beforehand? I've been playing a weak DA codex all the time I could have been printing and laminating my own datasheets :( This is so unfair!

Just to be sure, do you need a limited edition GW laminator or will any do??? Answer please, this is serious!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Yes, in the same way I am saying Person A is entitled to their BMW because they have more disposable income whereas Person B who has not purchased a BMW is not. I will agree very much so that the fact there is even limited edition stuff that isn't available in another form (Codices are fine, since the LE stuff is just fun to have) is crap and should not exist.

Yes and you can say the same thing about homes or TVs or kitchen appliances, but that's not a competition (if someone thinks it is,well they have issues beyond the scope of this discussion.) When you start producing rules that are only available to the select few in a competative setting, that's a problem, and a pretty big one.

If you have the rules with you, whether they are a pdf of a webstore exclusive ___ or your army's codex, I'll play.

If you show up without a codex or datasheet or print-out of your FW list/unit that you're using, I will not play you. Period. End of. Bring your fething rules.

As to should they be legal in tournaments? I can't say. That's a sticky wicket!