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2015/06/22 14:42:14
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
The other arm is the arm with the loaded towel. From what I understand it might have been one of those AK full auto assault towels...
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/06/22 14:45:43
Subject: Re:Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
“These scenarios are designed to make any person fail and to cause them to believe there are no other options. He had no taser, baton or other less than lethal weapons. What about kicking the big guy in the nuts, waiting for backup, or tasering him. The profession of law enforcement is difficult at times, but the excessive brainwashing on a daily basis taking place, that you may die, is too extreme and gives many the belief it is OK to use deadly force. In many of these situations, Tamir Rice or Andy Lopez comes to mind, these officer’s just wanted to plain shoot and kill.”
“It’s a brainwashing mechanism to get you over to their side, to start thinking about killing. In what they call the ‘FATS simulator’ (firearms and training simulator), you are automatically designed to DIE… Yes it’s a game and useful for training. But here they put a citizen off the street with no training and a newscaster in pre-designed scenarios, which are psychologically made to make you think and perceive things differently. It has nothing to do with training. Every recruit, I don’t care if they’re an ex-badass Navy Seal… everyone dies.
“YouTube FATS training presented by the Pasadena PD, the officer’s have less than lethal weapons at their disposal. They don’t have to kill the people like the Phoenix channel led people to believe. There are viable alternatives. Numerous years of working undercover in South Central Los Angeles and I only had to use my 9mm once.
Most of the time I would kick the person strategically or pepper spray. There is very rarely a reason to kill, and many police officers go their entire lifetime without having to draw their weapons,”
A police whistle-blower on that video.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/22 14:53:23
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2015/06/22 14:54:31
Subject: Re:Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Anyway, from the LA story, this part seems to be the most suggstive: "This person extended an arm wrapped in a towel. The officer exited the vehicle and said, 'Drop the gun, drop the gun,'" LAPD Lt. John Jenal said. Clearly, the towel must have been wrapped around his arm in such a way as to conceal his hand and whatever he might (or might not) be holding in that hand. If his hand had been visible, there would have been no reason for the officer to suspect the presence of a gun. And the use of the term "extended" certainly suggests that the arm was not raised up in the air above his head, but more pointing at the officer. It would appear to be a threatening act, similar to reaching into the inside of your coat after an officer tells you to keep your hands up.
As far as the logic of handcuffing someone you've just shot in the head, I suppose it depends on the severity of the wound and whether or not the person is still fully capable of acting? I wasn't there, and this article doesn't contain all the facts.
But, is there a recording of the whole event? The article suggests the witness's video is just of the end of it.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
2015/06/22 15:16:11
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Bit of an odd thing to do, wrap your arm in a towel and then point it at police after flagging them down. Why would you do that unless you're trying to cause them to panic? Unless there's some particular reason like he has covering a wound, that's plausible.
The US is awash with guns, anyone could be carrying one in public, it's no wonder there are so many cases where people get shot for pointing what may be a weapon at someone. Sad but that's how things seem to be.
2015/06/22 15:20:50
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
hotsauceman1 wrote: All this stuff is seriously making me reconsider my possible LEO career and possibly DEA agent career.
I've already told you, you should pursue a career as full contact librarian.
"Your book is two weeks late. Judo chop!"
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/06/22 15:33:04
Subject: Re:Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
“These scenarios are designed to make any person fail and to cause them to believe there are no other options. He had no taser, baton or other less than lethal weapons. What about kicking the big guy in the nuts, waiting for backup, or tasering him.
The profession of law enforcement is difficult at times, but the excessive brainwashing on a daily basis taking place, that you may die, is too extreme and gives many the belief it is OK to use deadly force. In many of these situations, Tamir Rice or Andy Lopez comes to mind, these officer’s just wanted to plain shoot and kill.”
“It’s a brainwashing mechanism to get you over to their side, to start thinking about killing. In what they call the ‘FATS simulator’ (firearms and training simulator), you are automatically designed to DIE… Yes it’s a game and useful for training. But here they put a citizen off the street with no training and a newscaster in pre-designed scenarios, which are psychologically made to make you think and perceive things differently. It has nothing to do with training. Every recruit, I don’t care if they’re an ex-badass Navy Seal… everyone dies.
“YouTube FATS training presented by the Pasadena PD, the officer’s have less than lethal weapons at their disposal. They don’t have to kill the people like the Phoenix channel led people to believe. There are viable alternatives. Numerous years of working undercover in South Central Los Angeles and I only had to use my 9mm once.
Most of the time I would kick the person strategically or pepper spray. There is very rarely a reason to kill, and many police officers go their entire lifetime without having to draw their weapons,”
A police whistle-blower on that video.
A Taser doesnt always stop someone. Despite what people think, they dont knock ya out.
Same with Pepper Spray, you just made a pissed of adrenilne filled guy even MORE angry
5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
2015/06/22 15:34:16
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Prestor Jon wrote: Because children don't have any legal rights until they're adults. A minor is the responsiblity of the parent and has no legal rights except through his/her legal guardian or parent.
2015/06/22 15:41:15
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
I find it interesting that, not being known for being a flaming lefty, I know longer give the authorities the benefit of the douybt in these circumstances any more.
You lose Frazzled, you've lost America!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/06/22 15:47:07
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Frazzled wrote: I find it interesting that, not being known for being a flaming lefty, I know longer give the authorities the benefit of the douybt in these circumstances any more.
I think Frazzled's developed a serious case of cynicism! Run for the hills!
See, you're trying to use people logic. DM uses Mandelogic, which we've established has 2+2=quack. - Aerethan
Putin.....would make a Vulcan Intelligence officer cry. - Jihadin
AFAIK, there is only one world, and it is the real world. - Iron_Captain
DakkaRank Comment: I sound like a Power Ranger.
TFOL and proud. Also a Forge World Fan.
I should really paint some of my models instead of browsing forums.
2015/06/22 15:48:02
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Frazzled wrote: I find it interesting that, not being known for being a flaming lefty, I know longer give the authorities the benefit of the douybt in these circumstances any more.
You lose Frazzled, you've lost America!
Nah... never give authorities that benefit.
'Tis why lawyers and courts were invented.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2015/06/22 15:50:26
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
No, we really do not have enough info. How was he raising that arm, was it as if he was pointing something (like a gun)? Or was it a clear act of submission? Was he making other threatening noises/gestures? What was the distance between the cops and the guy who got shot? There are way too many things we don't know to make a judgement call.
I'm with you here, but a couple of "alarm bells" are ringing.... The article doesn't outline whether there was any damage to the towel wrapped arm.... Was his arm severely cut or otherwise damaged(hence the towel wrap)? If it was damaged in some way, and was the reason for the towel, why was he moving it to "flag down police" instead of holding it against his body in a preservation move?
I dunno, I guess this situation will be interesting to see how it unfolds.
2015/06/22 16:12:09
Subject: Re:Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
“These scenarios are designed to make any person fail and to cause them to believe there are no other options. He had no taser, baton or other less than lethal weapons. What about kicking the big guy in the nuts, waiting for backup, or tasering him.
The profession of law enforcement is difficult at times, but the excessive brainwashing on a daily basis taking place, that you may die, is too extreme and gives many the belief it is OK to use deadly force. In many of these situations, Tamir Rice or Andy Lopez comes to mind, these officer’s just wanted to plain shoot and kill.”
“It’s a brainwashing mechanism to get you over to their side, to start thinking about killing. In what they call the ‘FATS simulator’ (firearms and training simulator), you are automatically designed to DIE… Yes it’s a game and useful for training. But here they put a citizen off the street with no training and a newscaster in pre-designed scenarios, which are psychologically made to make you think and perceive things differently. It has nothing to do with training. Every recruit, I don’t care if they’re an ex-badass Navy Seal… everyone dies.
“YouTube FATS training presented by the Pasadena PD, the officer’s have less than lethal weapons at their disposal. They don’t have to kill the people like the Phoenix channel led people to believe. There are viable alternatives. Numerous years of working undercover in South Central Los Angeles and I only had to use my 9mm once.
Most of the time I would kick the person strategically or pepper spray. There is very rarely a reason to kill, and many police officers go their entire lifetime without having to draw their weapons,”
A police whistle-blower on that video.
A Taser doesnt always stop someone. Despite what people think, they dont knock ya out.
Same with Pepper Spray, you just made a pissed of adrenilne filled guy even MORE angry
I love how every person who is tased is suddenly The Hulk and 2-3 people cannot handle him. I wish I had that sort of super power.
Frazzled and I agree on this. That, honestly, should be enough to make people stop and say "Woah, maybe something is messed up here....."
2015/06/22 16:20:17
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/06/22 16:35:42
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Also, reports are saying the police officer told him to drop the gun, not lower his arm. That's a pretty major difference as someone who is not carrying a gun is more likely to be confused by being told to drop the gun than immediately realise that what they should do is lower their arm.
After all, it is possible that if they had lowered their arm they would still be shot for not dropping the gun. They could re-raise their arm pretty quickly after all.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/06/22 16:38:23
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2015/06/22 16:36:27
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Also, reports are saying the police officer told him to drop the gun, not lower his arm. That's a pretty major difference as someone who is not carrying a gun is more likely to be confused by being told to drop the gun than immediately realise that what they should do is lower their arm.
After all, it is possible that if they had lowered their arm they would still be shot for not dropping the gun. They could re-raise their arm pretty quickly after all.
Indeed.
"drop the gun" to a person without a gun is going to create confusion and hesitancy.
"drop the gun" when you meant towel, to a person is going to create more confusion and hesitancy.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/06/22 21:22:35
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Frankly, if the LAPD feels the need to handcuff someone after shooting him in the head, because he might get up and grab a gun off them and go on a rampage, then they should be using bigger guns.
Frazzled wrote: Why would you handcuff someone you shot because you thought they had a gun if they didn't have a gun?
It immediately fails the logic test, and thats why it is stupid.
Just because a man has been shot, does not mean he is incapacitated. He could still be a threat, and hand cuffs help neutralize that threat further.
Lets try it again.
You shoot a guy for not dropping his gun. BUT
There is no gun. WHY
hand cuff him? When His brains are on the street.
WHY NOT call 911 and attempt to render aid because
YOU KNOW YOU JUST KILLED AN INNOCENT MAN
FURTHER He wasn't resisting He wasn't fighting He wasn't fleeing he wasn't brandishing
BUT THE COPS BLEW OUT A PORTION OF HIS SKULL FOR REFUSING TO DROP THE GUN HE DIDN"T HAVE
and then they handcuffed him.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/22 21:37:48
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/06/22 21:38:17
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
CptJake wrote: Handcuffing the wounded guy makes a ton of sense to me. Heck, we trained to zip strip and secure everyone in the Army.
Heck, we trained to zip strip and secure everyone in the Army.
in the Army
Therein lies the problem: police officers aren't soldiers, the sheriffs department isn't the Army.
Policing can be dangerous, but new recruits are drilled from day one to condition themselves to be warriors and that they need to be prepared go out on the front lines everyday and confront the enemy (which is anyone and everyone). This is often one of the first things that is brought up when any discussion of police tactic reform is started and I think it's pretty valid.
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2015/06/22 21:42:03
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
Frazzled wrote: Why would you handcuff someone you shot because you thought they had a gun if they didn't have a gun?
It immediately fails the logic test, and thats why it is stupid.
Just because a man has been shot, does not mean he is incapacitated. He could still be a threat, and hand cuffs help neutralize that threat further.
Lets try it again.
You shoot a guy for not dropping his gun.
BUT
There is no gun.
WHY
hand cuff him?
When
His brains are on the street.
WHY NOT
call 911 and attempt to render aid because
YOU KNOW YOU JUST KILLED AN INNOCENT MAN
FURTHER
He wasn't resisting
He wasn't fighting
He wasn't fleeing
he wasn't brandishing
BUT
THE COPS BLEW OUT A PORTION OF HIS SKULL FOR REFUSING TO DROP THE GUN HE DIDN"T HAVE
and then they handcuffed him.
You are projecting a lot of things that you don't really know at this point.
You'd think having your nuts shot off, to include 3 or 4 other bullet holes in your body would incapacitate a man. I've read first hand accounts though that speak completely against that line of thought.
Assumption gets you killed. Don't do it.
In the mean time, why don't you hop off the "burn the cop" bus until it's gotten enough facts to actually go anywhere. Thank god you're not a criminal defense attorney...
Full Frontal Nerdity
2015/06/22 21:43:14
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
MrDwhitey wrote: Clearly by shooting the guy and checking his body after. Only way to be safe.
Does that translate into "I'm a smart ass who really does not have a solution"?.
I would have thought that the obvious solution would be for police to stop shooting people just because they think there might be a gun...
Clearly the only solution is more guns. More guns so people can defend themselves from the police, more guns for the police so they can defend themselves from the innocents. Your america, guns fix everything.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/06/22 21:46:08
2015/06/22 21:46:18
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
CptJake wrote: Handcuffing the wounded guy makes a ton of sense to me. Heck, we trained to zip strip and secure everyone in the Army.
Heck, we trained to zip strip and secure everyone in the Army.
in the Army
Therein lies the problem: police officers aren't soldiers, the sheriffs department isn't the Army.
Policing can be dangerous, but new recruits are drilled from day one to condition themselves to be warriors and that they need to be prepared go out on the front lines everyday and confront the enemy (which is anyone and everyone). This is often one of the first things that is brought up when any discussion of police tactic reform is started and I think it's pretty valid.
Your point is valid on the shoot/don't shoot aspect. It really is not valid on the cuffing. A person who has not been searched is going to be secured/cuffed for the safety of the cops and EMT. At that point, when you must make physical contact with him to search him or treat him, he is a potential threat regardless of what his wounds look like.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2015/06/22 21:47:02
Subject: Man with towel wrapped arm who waved down police shot in head and hand cuffed
MrDwhitey wrote: Clearly by shooting the guy and checking his body after. Only way to be safe.
Does that translate into "I'm a smart ass who really does not have a solution"?.
I would have thought that the obvious solution would be for police to stop shooting people just because they think there might be a gun...
Clearly the only solution is more guns. More guns so people can defend themselves from the police, more guns for the police so they can defend themselves from the innocents. Your america, guns fix everything.
Do we have an eye rolley smiley? We really need one.
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
