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 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
all these hundreds of bolter shots are reminding me of the lost Standard of Devastation
RIP Sacred Standards 2013-2015

*pours some liquor

 clamclaw wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

There's also plenty of bias toward the Imperium. Just watch when Tau or Tyranids or Chaos are updated; there will be plenty of knashing, stamping, throwing TFG about, and calls for banning them. I guarantee it.

I think that last point is strangely true. It seems like a lot of people know the Imperium to be 'good guys' and are okay with buffs. When Nid flying circus was all the rage it was hated on, CSM were OP for a short while before Helldrake nerfs and Tau used to wreck house. When all of these strats were viable they were bashed heavily.

I can't recall (maybe somebody can help me out) any recent times when the more powerful Imperial units were TFG-able.

What is this selective memory of the Xenos and Traitor players?
There is a whole thread active right now saying new SM codex is ridiculous, TFG and OP. Two actually. One started by an SM player.

 bullyboy wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
... is it just me?
The thing that makes this so scary is the Darkshroud.
That is an AV10 Skimmer. With 3 HP.
Take this thing down and suddenly the rerollable 2+ turns into a 3+ on a 40pts model and all the other benefits are gone. Yes, 3+ is still strong, but you have 1/6 of the firepower directed your way.
If your list cannot deal with a Skimmer that can be boltered to death, and it WILL be in bolter range for it to be useful, I question your list and tactical decisions

want to calculate how many bolter shots it will take to down an AV10 vehicle with 3 HP and rerollable 2+ save? yes, the darkshroud has it too.

it's around 400 bolter shots, jsyk

This is true.
But a cover save is no invul save. Ignore Cover does bad things to an AV10 vehicle.
How do you deal with a flying DP of Nurgle that keeps fluttering around summoning demons and casting powers?
You only hit that guy on a 6, wound on a 5 with bolters, and has a 2+ cover.
I don't do the math, but that is about as bad. I don't see everyone screaming how impossible he is to take down.
Any type of Ignore Cover weaponry will feth a Darkshroud up, it has virtually no defense otherwise.
And it's not like the meta is centered around high volume fire of mid str weaponry anyway.

Apply Space marine Vindicator formation. S10, AP2, 10" blast, Ignores Cover.

What was that, all your bikers clustered up to gain benefits? That's nice. 2's to kill, no saves. Auto pen on the (open topped?) speeder with AP2, 5's to explode.

Hell, IIRC, the whirlwind has Ordnance and ignores cover on it's str 4 shot, that's a 30% chance to get a glance. The TFC has ignores cover on it's Str 5, which means you can pen on a 6 and you get 4 shots, and if it's open topped, you can still explode on 6's.

Sternguard can use their ignore cover rounds and glance it to death. 10 sternies coming out of a pod have a not unreasonable chance of killing it, moving to statistically likely if they get prescienced.

WWP wraithguard have already been mentioned, as has perfect timing. Dark reapers ignore cover and get re-rolls to hit against bikes & skimmers that went flat out or turboboosted while come with Str 5 AP3 guns with 30" range IIRC. Sounds like a hard counter to bikers to me, and that's before you buy them their Str 8 AP3 option.

Can't you also get a torrent high strength flamer on one of their skimmers that can come in squadrons? Doesn't the farseer have a 50/50 chance to roll that apoc blast, posioned 2+ ap3 ignores cover haywire power? Don't tell me you're not taking at least 1 farseer.

Don't guard have ignore cover orders and autocannons/lascnnons? Doesn't the eradicator have ignores cover on it's str 6 large blast for ~120 points and can be squadroned with FA 14 (making it immune to plasmafire from the black knights?)?

Can't you buy Str 6 AP3 phosphor blasters for mechanicum that come with ignores cover? Can't the skitari get omnispexes and a billion haywire or plasma shots on their troops?

A screamers slashing attacks are d3 str 4 ap- ignores cover, a full squad should glance it to death on an average roll in 1 pass. Vector strikes from daemon princes are also an option, though a poor one. Exessive CC options abound in a daemon army.

Chaos has blastmasters, sonic blasters, heldrakes and CC options. Perhaps there will be a reason to take a slaneeshi biker lord and his noise marine cohorts now? Granted the 'Drake won't do anything for you until T2 when it's too late unless the ravenwing player reserved his toys for some odd reason.

Dominions have been mentioned for sisters, though I suspect that they're going to be fighting a losing battle there, but since virtually all sisters list will have a pair of dom squads, at least you cen be assured some of those bikers and the 'shroud are going to have a bad day.

Necrons are pretty boned, but hey, screw those guys, they're OP enough as it is and their focus isn't on actually killing anything. Guess they'll just have to go back to running CronAir instead or getting their lychstar into combat where their str 5 ap3 swords can go to work wounding on 4's with no saves.

Tau have markerlights and the buffcommander, they have never needed help against cover campers.

I'm sure I've missed someone, but there are answers in most codices. If you can protect them long enough to do their job is another question, as is how much you want to compromise the theme of your army to do so.

Don't get me wrong, this is silly strong, but much like the reaction to skyhammer, it's not the unbeatable terror that cannot be defeated.

Biggest reason there's not so much mass hysteria with the marine books because the ones that were freaking out the most were marine players. But now that they have a top tier book the complaints are quiet, just a bit of Imperial bias is going on here which is nothing new.

The new formation is undoubtably strong, but it's important to keep in mind its weaknesses:

1. It is expensive. 350 points minimum is hardly chump change. A significant portion of the army will have to be devoted to it.

2. It is limited. The Shrouded bonus is only conferred within a limited area. This means that the Darkshround will have to stay close and follow any unit of units around, potentially getting it into trouble.

3. It is vulnerable. The Darkshroud itself is not very durable even in the new codex. Kill it, and the buff disappears. There are plenty of ways to ignore cover in the game, not least counter-charging the unit.

Dark Angels fly under people's radar, so they haven't attracted as much hate yet. The Internet and this forum is probably burned out from being outraged so hard for so many months straight. Maybe then we can finally get back to playing the game...

To me this is funny, I just picked up a land speeder Vengeance. I all ready had 3 land speeders that have collected dust for the last 3 years that are now field able. Since I have a massive Dark Angel's army all ready. Ya my 32 DW terms are back on the shelf but those bikes ya if you do not think for 5 secs I'm not about to roll out those. 15 bike's and 2 attack bikes, Hell GW just might have got more of my Money from the another 15 I might buy for the next 2 years of trolling I will be doing with them.

And here I was working on fielding a sisters army using the Libby SM formation thinking you know that pretty dam cool.

 Drasius wrote:
Apply Space marine Vindicator formation. S10, AP2, 10" blast, Ignores Cover.

What was that, all your bikers clustered up to gain benefits? That's nice. 2's to kill, no saves. Auto pen on the (open topped?) speeder with AP2, 5's to explode.

yeah sure i'm gonna clump all my bikes together right under a darkshroud whose special effect has a 6" range from the hull, when your 10" blast only has maybe a 4" range from the hull.

also, that not open topped skimmer has 3 ablative speeders in front of it that will probably not even all die.

there's so much wrong with your post, but i'm not going to bother addressing the rest. too long, cbf

 gmaleron wrote:
Biggest reason there's not so much mass hysteria with the marine books because the ones that were freaking out the most were marine players. But now that they have a top tier book the complaints are quiet, just a bit of Imperial bias is going on here which is nothing new.

God, this stuff from Xenos and Traitor players is getting incredibly old.
There was loads of hysteria about the SM codex, yet we get the victimisation that just completely ignores that from these people. There was extreme amounts of whine about the AdMech free points, and yet it's all "NO ONE SPOKE UP AGAINST THE INJUSTICE!"

There is so much of the "IMPERIAL BIAS ON THIS FORUM!"-shouting that even that can be seen as hysteria against imperial armies.

There is the exact same amount of hysteria going on for any overpowered codex coming out no matter what faction it belongs to, yet these people try to be the god damned Jean D'Arc of their generation by proclaiming that there is nothing here.

It's insane. THE POSTS OF WHINE ARE RIGHT THERE and yet you just pretend like it's not, because it refutes the point you want to make about imperial bias.

I mean gak, you even quoted one of the posts not long ago, gmaleron.

Experiment 626 wrote:

In an 1700pts game or under, this formation is pretty much a Turn 1 auto-win for the Marine player.

I don't even understand how you can claim no one is crying bloody murder.

 Drasius wrote:
Apply Space marine Vindicator formation. S10, AP2, 10" blast, Ignores Cover.

What was that, all your bikers clustered up to gain benefits? That's nice. 2's to kill, no saves. Auto pen on the (open topped?) speeder with AP2, 5's to explode.

Hell, IIRC, the whirlwind has Ordnance and ignores cover on it's str 4 shot, that's a 30% chance to get a glance. The TFC has ignores cover on it's Str 5, which means you can pen on a 6 and you get 4 shots, and if it's open topped, you can still explode on 6's.

Sternguard can use their ignore cover rounds and glance it to death. 10 sternies coming out of a pod have a not unreasonable chance of killing it, moving to statistically likely if they get prescienced.

WWP wraithguard have already been mentioned, as has perfect timing. Dark reapers ignore cover and get re-rolls to hit against bikes & skimmers that went flat out or turboboosted while come with Str 5 AP3 guns with 30" range IIRC. Sounds like a hard counter to bikers to me, and that's before you buy them their Str 8 AP3 option.

Can't you also get a torrent high strength flamer on one of their skimmers that can come in squadrons? Doesn't the farseer have a 50/50 chance to roll that apoc blast, posioned 2+ ap3 ignores cover haywire power? Don't tell me you're not taking at least 1 farseer.

Don't guard have ignore cover orders and autocannons/lascnnons? Doesn't the eradicator have ignores cover on it's str 6 large blast for ~120 points and can be squadroned with FA 14 (making it immune to plasmafire from the black knights?)?

Can't you buy Str 6 AP3 phosphor blasters for mechanicum that come with ignores cover? Can't the skitari get omnispexes and a billion haywire or plasma shots on their troops?

A screamers slashing attacks are d3 str 4 ap- ignores cover, a full squad should glance it to death on an average roll in 1 pass. Vector strikes from daemon princes are also an option, though a poor one. Exessive CC options abound in a daemon army.

Chaos has blastmasters, sonic blasters, heldrakes and CC options. Perhaps there will be a reason to take a slaneeshi biker lord and his noise marine cohorts now? Granted the 'Drake won't do anything for you until T2 when it's too late unless the ravenwing player reserved his toys for some odd reason.

Dominions have been mentioned for sisters, though I suspect that they're going to be fighting a losing battle there, but since virtually all sisters list will have a pair of dom squads, at least you cen be assured some of those bikers and the 'shroud are going to have a bad day.

Necrons are pretty boned, but hey, screw those guys, they're OP enough as it is and their focus isn't on actually killing anything. Guess they'll just have to go back to running CronAir instead or getting their lychstar into combat where their str 5 ap3 swords can go to work wounding on 4's with no saves.

Tau have markerlights and the buffcommander, they have never needed help against cover campers.

I'm sure I've missed someone, but there are answers in most codices. If you can protect them long enough to do their job is another question, as is how much you want to compromise the theme of your army to do so.

Don't get me wrong, this is silly strong, but much like the reaction to skyhammer, it's not the unbeatable terror that cannot be defeated.

I notice you don't offer a solution for Dark Eldar...

 SirDonlad wrote:
If you can't take ignores cover weapons you will feel a bit boned by that, but as Arbiter_Shade said it's the new norm.
I am just thankful that FW have the HH going - i would have quit otherwise.

special rules for taking certain units for no cost, assault after deepstriking, heavy weapon obsec jetbike troopspam, 2+ re-rollable saves, armywide free upgrades - it really is beyond a joke now; this kind of stuff was hyperbole in after-match conversations about 4 years ago.

The new codexes/formations/combos have straight up broken the game. The only way to compete is to spend more money.


I am so glad i'm out of 40k!

I so badly wish i can say the same.

 Thairne wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Thairne wrote:
... is it just me?
The thing that makes this so scary is the Darkshroud.
That is an AV10 Skimmer. With 3 HP.
Take this thing down and suddenly the rerollable 2+ turns into a 3+ on a 40pts model and all the other benefits are gone. Yes, 3+ is still strong, but you have 1/6 of the firepower directed your way.
If your list cannot deal with a Skimmer that can be boltered to death, and it WILL be in bolter range for it to be useful, I question your list and tactical decisions

want to calculate how many bolter shots it will take to down an AV10 vehicle with 3 HP and rerollable 2+ save? yes, the darkshroud has it too.

it's around 400 bolter shots, jsyk

This is true.
But a cover save is no invul save. Ignore Cover does bad things to an AV10 vehicle.
How do you deal with a flying DP of Nurgle that keeps fluttering around summoning demons and casting powers?
You only hit that guy on a 6, wound on a 5 with bolters, and has a 2+ cover.
I don't do the math, but that is about as bad. I don't see everyone screaming how impossible he is to take down.
Any type of Ignore Cover weaponry will feth a Darkshroud up, it has virtually no defense otherwise.
And it's not like the meta is centered around high volume fire of mid str weaponry anyway.

I apoligise that my earlier calculation had an error, but the Darkshroud requires 972 bolter shots at BS 4 directed at it to kill it. Each shot has a probability of success of (2/3)*(1/6)*(1/6)*(1/6)=(1/324) chance of stripping a single hull point. The Darkshroud has 3 HP so: 3*324 = 972 shots.

A flying Daemon Prince requires a mere 216 bolter shots at BS 4 to kill it. Each shot has a probability of success of (1/6)*(1/3)*(1/6) = (1/54). The Daemon prince has 4 wounds so: 4*54 = 216 shots.

For the amount of firepower required to kill one Darkshroud, you could kill 4 Daemon Princes. Next time, I suggest that you do the math.

@Drasius You forgot to include a solution for the poor Orks.

Why are you trying to kill either of those with bolters?
It's not what bolters are for, and both are exercises in futility.

The prince is gonna need something with skyfire to take it down, and the Darkshroud something with ignores cover.

I love these silly "mathhammer" exercises...

"How many bolter shots does it take to kill a Wraithknight?" or "How many lasgun shots does it take to down a Knight?"

I agree - working out the math for bolters to kill an AV10 vehicle is silly.

Shall we try a more reasonable weapon? Say, a Dark Lance.

Chance to explode:
2/3 x 2/3 x 1/36 x 1/6 = 1/468

Chance to wreck:
2/3 x 5/6 x 1/36 x 1/3 = 1/162

Combined: ~1/120

See? This why you need to stick to sensible equations - none of this 900+ bolter shots nonsense.

Now we can see that it takes a mere 120 Dark Lance shots to destroy the Darkshroud.

So, with just 40 Ravagers (a mere 5000pts) you can kill it in a single turn.

I don't know why people have to make such a fuss all the time.

 vipoid wrote:
I agree - working out the math for bolters to kill an AV10 vehicle is silly.

Shall we try a more reasonable weapon? Say, a Dark Lance.

Chance to explode:
2/3 x 2/3 x 1/36 x 1/6 = 1/468

Chance to wreck:
2/3 x 5/6 x 1/36 x 1/3 = 1/162

Combined: ~1/120

See? This why you need to stick to sensible equations - none of this 900+ bolter shots nonsense.

Now we can see that it takes a mere 120 Dark Lance shots to destroy the Darkshroud.

So, with just 40 Ravagers (a mere 5000pts) you can kill it in a single turn.

I don't know why people have to make such a fuss all the time.

Hahaha, oh wow, you sure got us there. Wow, you really took on board all of the critique and showed us wrong in that passive aggressive snide and facetious post of yours.
Oh wait, no. No you didn't.

 Purifier wrote:
the Darkshroud something with ignores cover.

 Purifier wrote:

Hahaha, oh wow, you sure got us there. Wow, you really took on board all of the critique and showed us wrong in that passive aggressive snide and facetious post of yours.
Oh wait, no. No you didn't.

 Purifier wrote:
the Darkshroud something with ignores cover.

Oh, bloody ingenious. I wish I'd thought of that.

I bow to your heavenly wisdom.

So, oh Divine One, which Ignores Cover weapon in the Dark Eldar book should I use against the Darkshroud?

 TheNewBlood wrote:
The new formation is undoubtably strong, but it's important to keep in mind its weaknesses:

1. It is expensive. 350 points minimum is hardly chump change. A significant portion of the army will have to be devoted to it.

2. It is limited. The Shrouded bonus is only conferred within a limited area. This means that the Darkshround will have to stay close and follow any unit of units around, potentially getting it into trouble.

3. It is vulnerable. The Darkshroud itself is not very durable even in the new codex. Kill it, and the buff disappears. There are plenty of ways to ignore cover in the game, not least counter-charging the unit.

Dark Angels fly under people's radar, so they haven't attracted as much hate yet. The Internet and this forum is probably burned out from being outraged so hard for so many months straight. Maybe then we can finally get back to playing the game...

a decent build out is actually around 300pts (base darkshroud, 2 LS with HB/Typhoon, 1 LS with HB/AC)
It is indeed limited, but the RW can still add a regular darkshroud not in this formation to help elsewhere.
I don't see a lot of ignore cover in my group, but that may change now.

As a Nid player I plan to bring a small Flying Circus both to deal with the Darkshroud and with the new useful flyers.

Vector strikes ignore cover resolving against side armor. EGrubs ignore cover haywire. Drool Cannon ignores cover str 6

I left the competitive scene in 7th edition so excuse me if I'm wrong on this BUT isn't the competitive environment/meta pretty much shaped after bikes/skimmers/beasts? Last I heard, 1-2 Sicarians were pretty much the mainstay for slaughtering skimmers (although now that the MotF is gone they are pretty limited unless an FAQ comes). I don't see how you realistically expect a skimmer that's pretty much forced out in the open and into the front in order to give its benefits to survive for long, especially not when you can expect to lose over half your squadron in 1 salvo from 1 of those things and I've often seen them used in pairs.

Shhh. Let the sky be falling.
Noone ever has Ignore Cover or a unit capable of assault.
It is not like anyone ever has played against this yet.

There IS a counter. Unlike to, say, Eldar Scatterbikes. Or Necron 4+ reanimation.
Maybe Dark Eldar are screwed, I don't know.
But what I know is, that when I field this thing, that effing Sonic Dreadnought will murder it in 2 turns, followed by 2 Heldrakes and a Squad of Noise Marines.
That is what I usually face, and if CSM, probably the weakest codex in the entire game currently, can EASILY deal with it...
Well.

 jokerkd wrote:

yeah sure i'm gonna clump all my bikes together right under a darkshroud whose special effect has a 6" range from the hull, when your 10" blast only has maybe a 4" range from the hull.

also, that not open topped skimmer has 3 ablative speeders in front of it that will probably not even all die.

there's so much wrong with your post, but i'm not going to bother addressing the rest. too long, cbf

I'm fairly sure I can target your bikers and still hit the darkshroud, 'cause if you've got enough bikes for me to actually care about a 2+ re-roll ruining my day, then you're going to struggle to space them out sufficiently. Even if I just kill the bikers and not the darkshroud, I've still removed your offensive ability from the table. Keep your gakky +1 cover speeder, I'll just sit over here with my Str 10 AP2 ignores cover apoc blast and proceed to ruin the rest of your army.If you only have a handful of bikers, then I'll be ignoring them in favour of something else more damaging, so their 2+ re-roll doesn't actually matter.

 vipoid wrote:

 Drasius wrote:


I notice you don't offer a solution for Dark Eldar...

Fairly sure I mentioned WWP wraithguard. That requires a DE taxi at least...?

Yep, DE are kinda boned, but then, you've often been relegated to an ally army halfway through your codex, so it's not exactly a shock. Perhaps grots in raiders are a solution combined with corpsethief claw?

 the Signless wrote:

@Drasius You forgot to include a solution for the poor Orks.

Hmmm... Greentide and a VSG? You should have enough cheap, choppy bodies to convince your opponent that the idea of paying 40 ppm for a squad that gets its job done within easy charge range (Plasma talons are still 18" range, 9" for rapidfire, right?) isn't the best plan?

You realise only one model from each unit has to be within 6" right? Range of effect is 6", range of blast is 5" (from centre)

I could have 60+ bikers gain stealth from one darkshroud.

And you think a 360pt squad of 24" range tanks that only have ignores cover til one gets shot at (so never if i get first turn) is the appropriate response?

Even IF you could tailor your list, it's still a gak unit.

 Drasius wrote:

Fairly sure I mentioned WWP wraithguard. That requires a DE taxi at least...?

I was hoping for something that doesn't require me to buy another army in order to work.

 Drasius wrote:

Yep, DE are kinda boned, but then, you've often been relegated to an ally army halfway through your codex, so it's not exactly a shock.

That's true, but it's not exactly pleasant to see GW pour yet more gasoline on that particular fire with every release.

 Drasius wrote:
Perhaps grots in raiders are a solution combined with corpsethief claw?

I don't think CTC is the answer. When your opponent's models can all move 12" (plus Flat Out or Turbo Boost), and your 600+pt unit is stuck moving 6", I just don't see how you'd ever catch anything.

Grots might help, but I doubt they'll do much when the DA player can just ignore everything else in your army.

It seems like you'll need to specifically tailor against DA (e.g. running 3 Grotesqueries) if you want to stand a chance.

I'd like everyone to remember a time long ago.

A time when a Psy-Riflemen dread was considered the epitome of high str ROF, when Fliers were Skimmers, when assault was an assured 6'' and apocalypse stayed in apocalypse.

Remember when a Tyranofexes and Dreadknights were the most survivable things in the game by far, the only 2+ re-rollable came from a Fortuned Shadowfield and oh, everybody used either Force Org or had it modified via Special Characters (which are also now, sadly, gone).

I miss that. How can my Dark Eldar possibly put up a fair fight against this stuff? None of our vehicles can survive the TL Plasma Guns (They'll also pull a number on our Talos, so no CTC), none of our units can survive the Str 5 charge, none of our units can piece the 2++ Re-rollable cover save and none of our units have Skyfire or the Rate of Fire to threaten his Fliers.

Oh right, it's the same case for Skyhammer, Decurion and Warhost as well (Skitarri seem fine honestly). As other people have said, Warhamer is now split directly into Pre-Eldar and Post-Eldar codexes, and those of us who play Pre-Eldar simply have no motivation to care about things we have no power to even give a fair fight.

because elves are still grossly overpowered. You're only overpowered if you take that 1 formation, and that specific units. elves are unbeatable regardless of what they take. also, they've been overpowered 7 editions straight, whereas, this is the first time in 7 editions DA has been reasonable.

 Purifier wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:
Yeah, it is pretty strange that there has been little huffing and puffing over the new SM codex. When Eldar were still in the leak phase of their release, we saw mass hysteria and declarations of the game being done/quitting for good.

With SM it seems to be pretty smooth sailing, although they also got a rather considerably good codex. I understand the SM are not as amazing as Eldar on paper, but they are both certainly in the top tier at the moment.

Not that I'm complaining (even being a CSM player myself) it's nice not to have the angry mob recycling the same threads over and over about OP Eldar->SM codex's.

There is loads of huffing and puffing over it. If you're avoiding the threads on it, it doesn't mean that they don't exist.
The free vehicles and the formation where everything gets obsec is a point of major rage.

.

the free transports are nifty but not terriably bad. and the obsec is of minimal value as the only thing that'd not have tObsec if you took a CAD instead is a assault squad or devestator squad. (ok I suppose devestator centurions being obsec could be annoying but it's hardly game breaking)

The problem is not in the DA, its in the DE.

DE is simply a bad codex. even against older ones.

DA and SM? its a though fight, but my 6th tau can take it on rather well. not so necrons or eldar.

Eldar can - serp shields still ignore cover right? And even more shots now but at st6. That many st6 IC shots will mulch it.

 vipoid wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Hahaha, oh wow, you sure got us there. Wow, you really took on board all of the critique and showed us wrong in that passive aggressive snide and facetious post of yours.
Oh wait, no. No you didn't.

 Purifier wrote:
the Darkshroud something with ignores cover.

Oh, bloody ingenious. I wish I'd thought of that.

I bow to your heavenly wisdom.

So, oh Divine One, which Ignores Cover weapon in the Dark Eldar book should I use against the Darkshroud?

Any melee weapon that gives the model str4 or higher. I love how you don't sway from the facetiousness. Makes you look consistently as a douche. Better than swerving to and fro, I think.

Or - as xenos players are so happy to tell imperials - just ally something. You can ally with the eldar, right?