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My IG army has no cover ignoring and no str4.But to be honest, just being +2 cover, isn't much when DA kill count per turn is much lower then other good armies.

How does a DE player get in to range of a biker army to do charge, there would have to be nothing but immpassible terrain and objectives in a tight bottleneck with 2 huge LoS blocking impassibles on each side?

 Purifier wrote:

God, this stuff from Xenos and Traitor players is getting incredibly old.

And now you know how every Tau and Eldar a Necron player up to this point feels. No need to get so worked up about it or get upset over it, I was just pointing out the fact that there has been some Imperial bias for some time towards certain units or even entire armies of particular xenos races. You think we enjoyed hearing over and over again how OP or cheesy our armies were when for the most part they were complete exaggerations and over-the-top claims? How every tactical point you tried to point out was constantly argued against despite how clear or good have a strategy it actually was? Get used to it man you guys are in the same boat as we are now, welcome to the club.

 Purifier wrote:

Any melee weapon that gives the model str4 or higher.

It might surprise you to learn that those are far from common in the DE book.

Also, that basically guarantees that said unit will be sacrificed (as it will be unable to hide in combat).

Furthermore, I notice that you don't provide a single option for taking out the Darkshroud at range. I ask again, what weapon should I use if I want/need to kill it at range?

 Purifier wrote:
I love how you don't sway from the facetiousness. Makes you look consistently as a douche. Better than swerving to and fro, I think.

lol

Says the one who continues to make snide, insulting, condescending and dismissive responses, rather than admit there's a problem with the game.

 Purifier wrote:

Or - as xenos players are so happy to tell imperials - just ally something. You can ally with the eldar, right?

Ah, you're that sort of person. Someone once told you to ally another imperial faction, so now every xeno player ever is responsible for that.

Tell you what, how about we continue this conversation when you're not being weighed down by that massive chip on your shoulder?

Makumba wrote:
My IG army has no cover ignoring

doesn't one of the IGs orders grant ignore cover?

It does.

I believe that one is called 'Fire on my target'.

Yipee, more matthammer non sens, wich doesn't hold gak in real conditions...

I had a 2+ cover save on my Maulerfiend once, got shot at by 2 meltas, not even in melta range; rolled snake eyes, see this?, SNAKE EYES on my cover save, the fething thing blew up anyway.

Had a guy who played a Spearhead formation back in 5th Ed, 3 venerable dreads in a ruin with the formation that gives a +1 cover save and the Techy who had bolstered the thing, to give a 2+ cover save...

Triple 1's...yup the guy rolled triple 1's for his cover save, made the damage rolls, got a 3 a 4 and a 6, he made me reroll those....triple 6...bye bye Ven dreads formation...

Matthammer is useless in real combat conditions, its just Theorycrafting.

If only there'd been a way of rerolling such a statistically unlikely outcome...

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Yipee, more matthammer non sens, wich doesn't hold gak in real conditions...

I had a 2+ cover save on my Maulerfiend once, got shot at by 2 meltas, not even in melta range; rolled snake eyes, see this?, SNAKE EYES on my cover save, the fething thing blew up anyway.

Had a guy who played a Spearhead formation back in 5th Ed, 3 venerable dreads in a ruin with the formation that gives a +1 cover save and the Techy who had bolstered the thing, to give a 2+ cover save...

Triple 1's...yup the guy rolled triple 1's for his cover save, made the damage rolls, got a 3 a 4 and a 6, he made me reroll those....triple 6...bye bye Ven dreads formation...

Matthammer is useless in real combat conditions, its just Theorycrafting.

And this is why the Lottery is still in business...

 vipoid wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Any melee weapon that gives the model str4 or higher.

It might surprise you to learn that those are far from common in the DE book.

Also, that basically guarantees that said unit will be sacrificed (as it will be unable to hide in combat).

Furthermore, I notice that you don't provide a single option for taking out the Darkshroud at range. I ask again, what weapon should I use if I want/need to kill it at range?

 Purifier wrote:
I love how you don't sway from the facetiousness. Makes you look consistently as a douche. Better than swerving to and fro, I think.

lol

Says the one who continues to make snide, insulting, condescending and dismissive responses, rather than admit there's a problem with the game.

 Purifier wrote:

Or - as xenos players are so happy to tell imperials - just ally something. You can ally with the eldar, right?

Ah, you're that sort of person. Someone once told you to ally another imperial faction, so now every xeno player ever is responsible for that.

Tell you what, how about we continue this conversation when you're not being weighed down by that massive chip on your shoulder?

1) I don't know why you think you need to have a long range answer to every unit. I get that you want to sit back and shoot at everything, but that doesn't mean that you have no answers to the threat.
2) Yes, sometimes you will sacrifice units. That's one of the tactics of this game. You don't like when your units die and you want to be able to shoot everything from a safe distance. I get that, but it doesn't make the game broken that you have to do that.
3) Read your replies again, and see if they aren't being incredibly snide. Try to write a whole post without using irony. You haven't managed yet. I'm not being dismissive. I'm countering your points. I'm not being snide, I'm telling you that everything you're saying is exaggerated, I'm not being condescending, I'm responding to your condescending posts and insulting... well, I did mention that the way you write your posts makes you look like a douchebag, so I guess I can accept that one.
4) once? ONCE? It's been the reply every single time I've said that I can't handle something with my army. "I don't think Skitarii are all that hot." But yeah, they have this and that formation! Yeah, if you ally them. Oh and they can get drop podded in. Yeah, if you ally them. EVERY SINGLE POST about how my army is ridiculous is about it being allied. And I don't even have a chip about it. I think it's a fair critique.
Yes, it's a powerful army when allied, and nothing is stopping me from doing that, so it's a powerful army. But why is it suddenly forgotten when it comes to the xenos side that you can ally?

You need to get rid of your ridiculous bias.

 Purifier wrote:

1) I don't know why you think you need to have a long range answer to every unit. I get that you want to sit back and shoot at everything, but that doesn't mean that you have no answers to the threat.

I guess I must just be a bad person for wanting my anti-tank weapons to kill a tank. Obviously this is expecting too much of them.

 Purifier wrote:

2) Yes, sometimes you will sacrifice units. That's one of the tactics of this game. You don't like when your units die and you want to be able to shoot everything from a safe distance. I get that, but it doesn't make the game broken that you have to do that.

I still don't know why you think it's reasonable for an 80pt vehicle to have effective immunity to every ranged weapon in the DE book.

 Purifier wrote:

3) Read your replies again, and see if they aren't being incredibly snide. Try to write a whole post without using irony.

I thought I was using sarcasm rather than irony, but whatever. Put simply, your posts don't exactly entice me to write a non-sarcastic response.

 Purifier wrote:
I'm not being dismissive. I'm countering your points.

No, you're hand-waving them. Apparently you're unaware of the difference.

 Purifier wrote:
I'm not being snide, I'm telling you that everything you're saying is exaggerated,

You most certainly are being snide.

You also have yet to provide even a shred of evidence that I've exaggerated anything.

 Purifier wrote:
I'm not being condescending, I'm responding to your condescending posts and insulting... well, I did mention that the way you write your posts makes you look like a douchebag, so I guess I can accept that one.

I feel I should point out that your posts became snide and insulting before mine did. Possibly they weren't intentionally snide and insulting (douchebag comment not withstanding), but that's certainly how they came across.

I started with a light-hearted, if sarcastic, post - which you then seemed to take great offence at.

 Purifier wrote:

4) once? ONCE? It's been the reply every single time I've said that I can't handle something with my army.

I think you're missing the point (or intentionally avoiding it). Please quote where *I* gave that reply to you.

 Purifier wrote:
"I don't think Skitarii are all that hot." But yeah, they have this and that formation! Yeah, if you ally them. Oh and they can get drop podded in. Yeah, if you ally them. EVERY SINGLE POST about how my army is ridiculous is about it being allied. And I don't even have a chip about it. I think it's a fair critique.
Yes, it's a powerful army when allied, and nothing is stopping me from doing that, so it's a powerful army. But why is it suddenly forgotten when it comes to the xenos side that you can ally?

You need to get rid of your ridiculous bias.

I see you've now moved on to blatant hypocrisy.

You tell me to get over my bias, whilst at the same time painting all xeno players with the same brush.

I have never told you to use allies to solve a problem.

I have never told *anyone* to use allies to solve a problem, because I think that's an awful idea and that each book should stand up on their own.

So either you have me confused with someone else, or you're projecting so hard that we could point you at a wall and use you to show off Powerpoint presentations.

This is the comment you gave a snide and facetious comment to:

 Purifier wrote:
Why are you trying to kill either of those with bolters?
It's not what bolters are for, and both are exercises in futility.

The prince is gonna need something with skyfire to take it down, and the Darkshroud something with ignores cover.

I don't at all feel that was being snide. I was seriously telling you that it's irrelevant math when you are using an example weapon that has no place trying to shoot the vehicle in the first place.

You say you don't think the books should work that way and every army should be able to stand up on its own, and that makes my post hypocrisy?

I was saying that I thought it was fair judgement on my book. So if I say the same is fair against your book, that's not hypocrisy. That's staying true to the same sentiment across mine and your books.

The fact that you haven't said it and your opinion is different has nothing to do with it. I can't be a hypocrite because my opinion differs from you. That's not what hypocrisy is.

you said "Ah, you're that sort of person. Someone once told you to ally another imperial faction, so now every xeno player ever is responsible for that. "

You project that onto me, something that you completely made up, and now I'm the one projecting?

I haven't said that every xeno says that. I've said that xenos players have said that (and they have, a lot.) You're the one taking it to heart like I was talking about you specifically.

The fact is that it's something Xenos have said a lot, and I said that it also applies here. I feel that the comment from xenos (that aren't you) is valid and I think it is still valid here.

I feel like you're projecting and then accusing me of projecting in the same breath, same as what you do with every other thing you've claimed of me:
hypocrisy
snide
insulting
condescending
dismissive

Every one of these things can be seen in your texts. It's like you try to nip it in the bud because if you say it first then I can't counter with it.

Actually it'd be better if both you calmed down and stopped insulting each other.

Take a breath, count to whatever and move on.

Thanks.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Yipee, more matthammer non sens, wich doesn't hold gak in real conditions...

I had a 2+ cover save on my Maulerfiend once, got shot at by 2 meltas, not even in melta range; rolled snake eyes, see this?, SNAKE EYES on my cover save, the fething thing blew up anyway.

Had a guy who played a Spearhead formation back in 5th Ed, 3 venerable dreads in a ruin with the formation that gives a +1 cover save and the Techy who had bolstered the thing, to give a 2+ cover save...

Triple 1's...yup the guy rolled triple 1's for his cover save, made the damage rolls, got a 3 a 4 and a 6, he made me reroll those....triple 6...bye bye Ven dreads formation...

Matthammer is useless in real combat conditions, its just Theorycrafting.

Sure, but you also have as much chance of the same Maulerfiend surviving two Strength D wounds out in the open. The point of math hammer is to compare what will probably happen in any given game, not what might happen once if you're really unlucky.

Still, it IS strong.
It is however far from invicible like a 2++ rerollable screamer star.
The simple fact that it IS a cover save that can be COMPLETELY negated makes this far more manageable.

If Dark Eldar have actually NO way to do that, it's sad. I wouldn't even count assault as a good way to counter it.. not with overwatching Land Speeders at BS2 or BS4 nearby.
I think this is getting pretty much blown out of proportion by the lack of Ignore Cover in the DE dex. Most other codices should be able to manage it.

 Purifier wrote:
This is the comment you gave a snide and facetious comment to:

 Purifier wrote:
Why are you trying to kill either of those with bolters?
It's not what bolters are for, and both are exercises in futility.

The prince is gonna need something with skyfire to take it down, and the Darkshroud something with ignores cover.

I don't at all feel that was being snide. I was seriously telling you that it's irrelevant math when you are using an example weapon that has no place trying to shoot the vehicle in the first place.

You say you don't think the books should work that way and every army should be able to stand up on its own, and that makes my post hypocrisy?

I was saying that I thought it was fair judgement on my book. So if I say the same is fair against your book, that's not hypocrisy. That's staying true to the same sentiment across mine and your books.

The fact that you haven't said it and your opinion is different has nothing to do with it. I can't be a hypocrite because my opinion differs from you. That's not what hypocrisy is.

you said "Ah, you're that sort of person. Someone once told you to ally another imperial faction, so now every xeno player ever is responsible for that. "

You project that onto me, something that you completely made up, and now I'm the one projecting?

I haven't said that every xeno says that. I've said that xenos players have said that (and they have, a lot.) You're the one taking it to heart like I was talking about you specifically.

The fact is that it's something Xenos have said a lot, and I said that it also applies here. I feel that the comment from xenos (that aren't you) is valid and I think it is still valid here.

I feel like you're projecting and then accusing me of projecting in the same breath, same as what you do with every other thing you've claimed of me:
hypocrisy
snide
insulting
condescending
dismissive

Every one of these things can be seen in your texts. It's like you try to nip it in the bud because if you say it first then I can't counter with it.

This looks like way more work and thought than I would ever put into an internet reply. You two disagree, thats fine. Take a break from the keyboard and don't worry about it.
life goes on.

Regarding the Mathhammer, yeah it can be pretty wonky but it's the next best thing to being able to actually play-test a unit. It's giving you the statistical average of what might happen, not the results of what will. Like right now I am not able to play a game, though running some numbers on 40K calculators can at least give me a general idea. Plus it satiates my desire to play until I can fit a game in.

 Purifier wrote:

You say you don't think the books should work that way and every army should be able to stand up on its own, and that makes my post hypocrisy?

No.

What made your post hypocritical was that you accused me of bias whilst at the same time showing bias against me simply because I play a xeno army.

 Purifier wrote:

I don't at all feel that was being snide. I was seriously telling you that it's irrelevant math when you are using an example weapon that has no place trying to shoot the vehicle in the first place.

I was actually talking about your post after that.

My response to the post you quoted was intended as light-hearted, but also to prove a point - that the darkshroud is incredibly resilient even when you're using a more sensible weapon.

I apologise if that post came across as insulting, snide or condescending, because that really wasn't my intent.

 vipoid wrote:

My response to the post you quoted was intended as light-hearted, but also to prove a point.

You can't do both of those. One makes the other look serious.
But let's just agree to disagree and drop it. We've already been told off once.

So here's me attempting to address the worry you have, but in a civil way with absolutely nothing snide intended.

Yes, your codex isn't geared to take it out. You literally have no weapon made to shoot the vehicle in question. You should never use a single shot attempting to shoot it, because even just letting it roam around unhindered and attempting to play around it would make more sense.
You do however have some units able to take it out using melee. I'm not at all heavily invested into the DE book, so I'm not gonna be able to pull out any tactical genius tricks, but I would probably start by bringing a unit or two of standard geared Hellions.
They have good mobility, aren't expensive and can knock the vehicle out with their standard gear. They're a pretty optimal sacrifice unit for the mission and if they are successful in it, then they will have been more than worth their points in both the unit they took out and the fire they pulled from other targets.

Aaaaand this is how we lock a thread... Can you guys, like, make a new thread for this argument? Or PM each other?

 Purifier wrote:

But let's just agree to disagree and drop it. We've already been told off once.

Sure. Perhaps we might even part this thread as friends. (:

 Purifier wrote:

So here's me attempting to address the worry you have, but in a civil way with absolutely nothing snide intended.

Yes, your codex isn't geared to take it out. You literally have no weapon made to shoot the vehicle in question. You should never use a single shot attempting to shoot it, because even just letting it roam around unhindered and attempting to play around it would make more sense.
You do however have some units able to take it out using melee. I'm not at all heavily invested into the DE book, so I'm not gonna be able to pull out any tactical genius tricks, but I would probably start by bringing a unit or two of standard geared Hellions.
They have good mobility, aren't expensive and can knock the vehicle out with their standard gear. They're a pretty optimal sacrifice unit for the mission and if they are successful in it, then they will have been more than worth their points in both the unit they took out and the fire they pulled from other targets.

I don't think Hellions would work. With 1 attack each at S4, you're looking at an average of 27 attacks to down the Darkshroud. Including the attack from charging, you'd still need 14+ Hellions. That's already 180pts - more than twice what the Darkshroud costs. Plus, that's assuming the squad makes it to the Darkshroud at full strength. With T3, 5+ saves and no jink or other defences, that seems really unlikely.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I really can't see Hellions being a viable solution.

Reavers with Cluster Caltrops might be worth considering though - with 1-per-3 having d6 Rending HoW hits, and the others having S4 HoW hits.

 vipoid wrote:

I don't think Hellions would work. With 1 attack each at S4, you're looking at an average of 27 attacks to down the Darkshroud. Including the attack from charging, you'd still need 14+ Hellions. That's already 180pts - more than twice what the Darkshroud costs. Plus, that's assuming the squad makes it to the Darkshroud at full strength. With T3, 5+ saves and no jink or other defences, that seems really unlikely.

I appreciate the suggestion, but I really can't see Hellions being a viable solution.

Reavers with Cluster Caltrops might be worth considering though - with 1-per-3 having d6 Rending HoW hits, and the others having S4 HoW hits.

I suppose you're right. If you bring Hellions anyway (for whatever mission you had in mind for them) and they happen to roll +1 to STR for their dope, then they would definitely easily take it out, but without that... yeah, they might have a hard time making their points back.

Lets just get this straight. The Eldar book was OP. There were plenty complaining about it. The SM book was OP. There were plenty complaining about it.
Whether you choose to ignore some of those complaints or not, they were there. Fact.
There is no community Imperial bias. There is just as much outrage for both. Trying to say otherwise is just plain false and simply just ignoring all the threads complaining about the SM dex and formations.
Furthermore starting a thread AS SOON AS the DA rumours are leaked asking why there is no outrage is just absolutely ridiculous. People need time to actually hear about it before they can decide whether they believe it OP or not.
That is the point Purifier was trying to make.

Oh - and 3 of my 4 armies are non imperial.

Meh, troll thread with troll arguments. Nearly as innane as the books themselves.

BA hate everyone at this point.

In my defense, I mathhammered the Darkshroud using bolters in response to a incorrect claim that it could easily be glanced to death by infantry.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Yipee, more matthammer non sens, wich doesn't hold gak in real conditions...

I had a 2+ cover save on my Maulerfiend once, got shot at by 2 meltas, not even in melta range; rolled snake eyes, see this?, SNAKE EYES on my cover save, the fething thing blew up anyway.

Had a guy who played a Spearhead formation back in 5th Ed, 3 venerable dreads in a ruin with the formation that gives a +1 cover save and the Techy who had bolstered the thing, to give a 2+ cover save...

Triple 1's...yup the guy rolled triple 1's for his cover save, made the damage rolls, got a 3 a 4 and a 6, he made me reroll those....triple 6...bye bye Ven dreads formation...

Matthammer is useless in real combat conditions, its just Theorycrafting.

Yea. . . no.

Mathematics provides us with a statistical average, meaning what is most likely to happen and statistical outliers, such as your examples, are rare. I play games regularly and can tell you the number of "statistically probable" roles exceeds the number of "statistically improbable". People build strategy around what is statistically probable to happen, for example I expect my warboss to roll at least one 4 when he swings his klaw. If you want to ignore probability then have fun shooting darkshrouds with your infantry weapons, tell us how it went.

You provided two examples, one of them several years old to have come from 5th. Surely we can do better than that.

There is a small subset of people at my FLGS that don't believe on Mathhammer. Their lists... amuse me. They are also a huge percentage of my wins because BA can't beat real lists.

I'm willing to bet this is part of a new design cycle and DE / IG / Orks / whoever will get the treatment soon enough.

BrianDavion wrote:

Makumba wrote:
My IG army has no cover ignoring

doesn't one of the IGs orders grant ignore cover?

having a unit alive after turn 1 to give an order. You must be playing against different meq armies then me.

90% of the IG remain after the BA get a turn. Oh wait....

No one plays BAs, unless he is a masochist or plays BAs in the form of a formation of drop pods full of ad mecha grav dudes.

Sorry if it has been answer before, I haven't read all comments, only the OP.

There is no outrage because of 3 main reason I think:
1-DA are no as popular/played as other faction such as SM or Eldar.
2-Ravenwing is not as popular as Deathwing or Greenwing imo.
3-The rule are far from outraging. 2+ rerollable Jink keep you alive, but completly negate your damage output. Yes yes I know you have 1 turn of Jink at normal BS, but that is only if you turbo-boost the turn prior, meaning you didn't shot that turn, which doesn't give that much of an edge. The rule seem written in order to make the Ravenwing a very 'chargy' army (First turn scout + turbo boost/Jink, dodge most of retaliation, turn 2 shoot at full BS then charge), but lack the power in close combat to make them overpower. On top of that, I find the detachment really restrictive.

That's my 2cent. I'm very happy with the codex, because it seem like I have so many things to try, and I'm excited to get my book this weekend