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2015/07/17 13:16:13
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Are you being short-sighted? Back up and look at the companies history alone. How can you just snear? I see no other miniatures producer that come close to quality multi-faceted kits. Who else makes anything as complex as a Baneblade with as much extra junk in the wannabe baneblade's trunk? GW's prices aren't that high when you look at quality verses the competition.
It could be that you are the one who is short-sighted, or at least not that informed as to what exists outside the GW ecosystem.
Yes, GW make some fantastic models but the most complex they are not. I've seen Tamiya kits that were as complex as a baneblade and Dreamforge's Leviathan requires a small screwdriver to put together (included), why? because it's completely posable and makes the GW Knight with its static, bigger dreadnaught pose look silly next to it, $90 at miniature market with a retail of about the same price as the Knight (it's bigger than a knight). Aesthetically it may not be your thing but we're talking kit complexity and Mark, the owner of Dreamforge makes the most complex, detailed kits you'll ever find. I won't even go into the kits that come out of Japan and China that cost a fraction of GW prices and offer multiples of 10 more for modelling and options, look up "Frame Arms". Yes, you can wind up spending about as much as a GW kit if you want bling out your frame but you'll not have to glue anything so changing options later doesn't even require messing with magnets. Again, we're not talking aesthetics here so if you like your models dripping in skulls and purity seals, you're stuck with GW, but mechanically, there are a large number of kits out there that make GW look both overpriced and child-like.
I agree with Talys and others in that GW kits scratch a certain itch that no other manufacturer can but that's all in aesthetic appeal and nothing to do with creativity or complexity.
You mean like Gundam models with colored plastic, interior detail and is fully poseable?
Spoiler:
Well to be fair, that kit probably costs much more than a GW kit.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2015/07/17 13:19:33
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Orock wrote: I kind of am. What they have been doing since going public has just completely turned me off to them. However the IP's are too valuable to let languish, so I'm sure someone like Hasbro would snatch them up if they went under.
Aside from those who don't deserve to losing their jobs I can't think of one downside to it. I truly believe almost anyone could run them better at this point.
As much as I'm on the GW hate wagon after the AOS crap show. I always hope that one day, they will wake up and say Forging the Narritive was a stupid idea. After all it's a poor excuse for not doing a good job with rules. It only empowers the: power gamers, WAAC, and TFG mentality. How hard is to understand that we play new people all the time. Hell the draw for me to go and play a tourney was that I get to play 3-4 new people I have never meet before. In 3-4th edition 40K always had a great time win or lose, now 6-7 edition I meet 2-3 Arsehats who are more into breaking the system than having fun with a new person. The best is when I roll my eyes and go "really thats what you brought to the table in a fun game".
Day by day I grow tired of GW and thier crap; 40K gets worse and worse every year, dropped some of the greatest games they ever made (specialist games), loss of a unique fantasy system just so they can look like a half dozen other fantasy games on the market.
When it comes to specialist games and WHFB, they only needed to promote it properly. End Times was on a roll until the Khaine book came out, then most players went WTF.
As to the comment they ignore thier coustomer base, I only believe half of it. In my opinion they listen to the professional gamer (9/10 are also known as: WAAC, TFG) quite well, constant 40K power creep and poor rules is the only proof I need. Right or Wrong I dont care what the GW fanboys think.
Go ahead fanboys keep on praying to the GW idol, they can do no wrong right? Whatever you wouldn't know a good game if it bit you in the arse
If they do fall someday, yes I agree many companies can do a better job.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/17 13:20:49
22 yrs in the hobby
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2015/07/17 13:20:51
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
It just dawned on me that the Age of Sigmar set was a great opportunity to add in more female sculpts to the fantasy range. Considering that most female characters are either wizards and/or special characters who died in the End Times... I guess the Games Workshop Hobby continues to be entrenched in the: AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEMALES.
2015/07/17 13:35:05
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
agnosto wrote: Well to be fair, that kit probably costs much more than a GW kit.
Actually, its RRP is ~$120 USD, and it stands 32 cm tall.
So, cheaper than an Imperial Knight for a bigger model of a quality that blows the IK out of the water.
No argument there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
keezus wrote: It just dawned on me that the Age of Sigmar set was a great opportunity to add in more female sculpts to the fantasy range. Considering that most female characters are either wizards and/or special characters who died in the End Times... I guess the Games Workshop Hobby continues to be entrenched in the: AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEMALES.
Wasn't that obvious with the asinine rules about how long your mustache is or how big your beard is?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/17 13:36:05
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2015/07/17 13:56:19
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
agnosto wrote: Well to be fair, that kit probably costs much more than a GW kit.
Actually, its RRP is ~$120 USD, and it stands 32 cm tall.
So, cheaper than an Imperial Knight for a bigger model of a quality that blows the IK out of the water.
Models like these are the main reason I've complained about GW pricing for years. Kits like the one above are so far above GW in complexity yet so noticeably less expensive than GW that it makes GW's pricing perplexing to say the least.
2015/07/17 14:53:40
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
agnosto wrote: Well to be fair, that kit probably costs much more than a GW kit.
Actually, its RRP is ~$120 USD, and it stands 32 cm tall.
So, cheaper than an Imperial Knight for a bigger model of a quality that blows the IK out of the water.
Models like these are the main reason I've complained about GW pricing for years. Kits like the one above are so far above GW in complexity yet so noticeably less expensive than GW that it makes GW's pricing perplexing to say the least.
You forgot to take the Sapce Mehrine tax into account.
2015/07/17 15:01:35
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
agnosto wrote: Well to be fair, that kit probably costs much more than a GW kit.
Actually, its RRP is ~$120 USD, and it stands 32 cm tall.
So, cheaper than an Imperial Knight for a bigger model of a quality that blows the IK out of the water.
Well, to be fair, an Imperial Knight is ~$140 RRP, and it's harder to get Gundam kits at the same types of discounts that you typically see GW kits (fewer retailers).
On AoS launch night, I picked up two old ones (no shoulder attachment) for about $85 USD apiece, and the hobbit board game for $60
But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've never liked Gundam and wouldn't buy them at any price. Robotech, on the other hand...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Saldiven wrote: Models like these are the main reason I've complained about GW pricing for years. Kits like the one above are so far above GW in complexity yet so noticeably less expensive than GW that it makes GW's pricing perplexing to say the least.
You could say that Tamiya scale models or Star Wars models aren't priced relative to Gundam models too, though. I mean, what's the point? They are marketed to totally different people. How many 40k collectors own Gundam or scale models, and vice versa?
To me, stuff like the Gundam model are just toys (not models to build and paint). It's no different than an Optimus Prime in terms of desirability (no matter how awesome the detail of Optimus, I wouldn't want a miniature of him).
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/07/17 15:07:02
2015/07/17 15:08:31
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Well, to be fair, an Imperial Knight is ~$140 RRP, and it's harder to get Gundam kits at the same types of discounts that you typically see GW kits (fewer retailers).
Which doesn't matter, because a) those discounts exist and the ease is largely irrelevant or non-existent anyways, seeing as how Amazon had discounts which is pretty easy to find and use, and b) factoring in second hand or discounted prices into a discussion likes this is pointless anyways, as each discount varies between games and stores or quality of the second hand mini in question. MSRP is the only reasonable way to measure prices of kits.
But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've never liked Gundam and wouldn't buy them at any price. Robotech, on the other hand...
No one is arguing otherwise, but the point is that another company makes a larger, better detailed, poseable, and more technical kit for less than what GW is asking for their rough equivalent, countering the earlier point by JNC that no other miniature producer can come close to the quality of multi-faceted kits.
But yes, I prefer robotech looks to Gundam. That Gundam kit made me second guess myself though. Holy feth is that impressive.
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2015/07/17 15:23:00
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
keezus wrote: What I find most interesting is GW's business approach appears be be overly fixated on cutting its losses rather than identifying and correcting what may be underlying deficiencies. This can be seen in their relentless restructuring and cost cutting within their organization, as well as the marginalization and subsequent retirement of their under performing lines.
If GW were a large ocean going cruise ship - this would be akin to ignoring small leaks and then sealing off sections below decks when the leaks turn into bigger leaks. While this kind of action will save the ship, it has the two side effects of displacing the passengers that were in the flooded section (set adrift by GW), and decreasing the amount of the ship that is above water.
Over the years, GW has closed off a number of flooded sections below decks - GW Events, NA Games Days, Specialist Games, (RIP Battlefleet Gothic). The passengers that were displaced from these areas initially just milled about on the deck, certain that GW would make things right with them, but eventually, many of them arranged for alternate passage as it became apparent that GW was not interested in their patronage. To fix the shortfall of revenue, GW increased fare prices. This caused some consternation amongst the unwashed masses in steerage and forced many of these people off the ship as well, but caused nary a stir amongst the well heeled in first class.
Most recently the staff of the SSGW noticed that the leak in the WHFB suites had become major and that portion of the boat was barely staying afloat. There were still many paying customers who were stubbornly still staying in their increasingly waterlogged suites, some of which were in first class. Acting according to their doctrine, the SSGW sealed off this area and built a shiny new Age of Sigmar suites and invited their customers to use this area. Many of the guests from the WHFB suites were dismayed that this new area, while shiny, lacked many of the amenities which made the stay in the WHFB suites so enjoyable (rank and flank, points costs) Instead, the new areas provided all the McDonalds you can eat and the room assignments were given out on a "first come first served" basis, with no occupancy limits..! At first they voiced their disbelief - surely the SSGW would carve out a small portion of the new suites for their old clientele. Alas, the only response was that they were invited to keep using the sealed and flooded WHFB compartments. Knowing that their time on the SSGW had ended, many of the former guests from the WHFB suites, they too sadly disembarked, hoping against hope that the SSGW might one day make a place that they could return to.
The proud SSGW is still steaming ahead full speed, safely above water. It remains to be seen if the Age of Sigmar will fully replace, and then eclipse revenue from WHFB... If it doesn't the SSGW might be in danger of capsizing, should she list due to uneven support from AoS and 40k (or even worse, she's taken on too much water to stay afloat in its current incarnation)... in this case, the course of action may be to rechristen the SSGW, the SS40k and cut loose all the damaged areas, restructuring the cruise ship into an exclusive luxury yacht. The first class customers in the 40k suites would hardly notice such a change now would they.
For sure, there is no way for GW to please everyone. This is common sense and it is well known to be impossible. All the displaced masses can only look on with sadness as the great luxury cruise liner, the SSGW steams on, a pale shadow of the greatness she once was. Who knows what destination is next for the SSGW... the SSGW no longer posts her destination, and only makes announcements 1 hour from landfall to "maintain excitement". Even though I left her years ago, I still have the commemorative silver GW cutlery from that ship and I wish her well.
That's an awesome analogy. Rather poetically written as well.
Talys wrote: But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I've never liked Gundam and wouldn't buy them at any price. Robotech, on the other hand...
If Robotech is more your cup of tea: The Bandai 1/72 scale variable fighters from Macross Frontier range from MSRP 3600Y to 6400Y (roughly $30-52 USD). The GW Knight's engineering is positively stone age in comparison to these fully transformable kits.
Talys wrote: To me, stuff like the Gundam model are just toys (not models to build and paint). It's no different than an Optimus Prime in terms of desirability (no matter how awesome the detail of Optimus, I wouldn't want a miniature of him).
Considering that outside of child/casual Gunpla fandom - Building Gunpla is serious business, where the hobbyists definitely "build and paint". There is a ridiculous quantity of aftermarket parts available. I'm not disputing your preference, but I can't agree with your assertion that there is no overlap with niche kits such as Gunpla / Star Wars and your definition of "modelling" as a "build and paint" affair.
-edit- images spoilered for size.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/17 15:33:14
2015/07/17 15:31:00
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
The 1/100 scale ones are about $50 (but they're a lot smaller).
Yeah, they may be pretty cool toys, but they seem so much more like action figures than collectible models... I'm just saying they're saying that an RPG sourcebook is really expensive when you put it beside a book on Westeros (Game of Thrones world). They're both fictional books on fictional worlds, but one will cost 3 times more than the other.
The only place I've ever seen a Gundam model assembled is in Japan, and tbh, there are a zillion plastic Gundam-type toys there, some of which look pretty cool (I think they're a lot cheaper there than on Amazon, too, at least from my memory). The Japanese really like their giant robots. But these aren't designed to be model kits like ones from GW or Tamiya. They're prepainted, snap-together action figures (most of them don't even need glue, much less 300+ tiny fidly bits) with a fraction f the number of parts as a model kit... Just a different beast.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @keezus - no disrespect intended for anyone who likes those things, man
Just sayin'... that's just the way I look at Gundam models. I'm not sure how many of the people who always jump to Gundam models as "these are superior to GW in every way" have ever bought a Gundam model
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/17 15:34:44
2015/07/17 15:41:54
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
It's irrelevant whether they've bought one or not.
Just as it is irrelevant whether you prefer them or not.
There are hard, quantifiable and measurable differences between the two kits that GW repeatedly come out on the losing side of in any comparison.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Talys wrote: The only place I've ever seen a Gundam model assembled is in Japan, and tbh, there are a zillion plastic Gundam-type toys there, some of which look pretty cool (I think they're a lot cheaper there than on Amazon, too, at least from my memory). The Japanese really like their giant robots. But these aren't designed to be model kits like ones from GW or Tamiya. They're prepainted, snap-together action figures (most of them don't even need glue) with a fraction f the number of parts as a model kit... Just a different beast.
I understand that Gunpla is not your cup of tea, but I don't see any basis for your claims that the are "not designed to be model kits"... especially when you compare them against GW or Tamiya. GW can not be compared against Tamiya or any other military modelling product. The plastic used is much thinner and less impact resistant, the parts are generally much smaller / fragile and the panels have more fine detail. Military kits are not meant to be handled or played with. If anything, based on detail level, robot kits are substantively more comparable to GW product as the completed product is designed to be handled. I don't understand why the requirement for glue would be a measure of how "serious" a model kit is from a modelling perspective. The fact that Gunpla are snap fit is a feature to make the hobby more accessible. Like with any model, paint and glue is necessary for best effect - in fact, first thing I do is clip 3/4 off the snap fit pegs as they interfere with a perfect fit. Keep in mind, from an engineering perspective, the pegs act simultaneously as an alignment peg, a "snap fit" component AND a mounting point for the joint poly-cap.
I also don't understand why number of parts is an issue! Each model kit, regardless of what it is... contains the number of parts to build the model advertised on the box. Does it build your tank/space marine/robot?!?? Great! Is the new single pose space marine captain worse than the old multipart one? The old one has way more parts! Well... obviously not! The number of parts is neither here nor there and just comes across as a cheap jab.
2015/07/17 16:05:02
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
@Keezus - Number of parts isn't just a cheap jab. Look on many of the kits on GW's website, and they actually say number of parts. It's important for some people, because it describes the complexity of the finished model.
For instance, a 15 part infantry model will be more complex than a 3 part infantry model, because even though both may look great, the 15 part one will have fewer undercuts (dare I say, none), and be in a pose not possible with the 3 part model, due to constraints of 2-part molds. Some people enjoy modelling complex kits, others don't. For instance, do I want a molded cable that's a part of the arm, or do I prefer the cable as a tiny part that I separately glue in? Do I want a 1-piece canopy, or do I want 10 fiddly bits to assemble each piece of the frame, then fill it, sand it, etc? (which requires some skill, by the way)
Please understand that I'm not at all denigrating Gundam models. I just think they're toys marketed to a different audience, so comparing prices isn't particularly helpful, because while a hobbyist into 40k might go and build Privateer Press models, they don't go and buy/build Gundam models (generally speaking).
Also: I see comparisons of "Gundam is cheaper that Imperial Knight!" But I never see comparisons of, "Gundam is cheaper than Judicator!" -- when that's exactly the same logic. People rarely jump on PP for having models that are just as or more expensive than GW. Liking PP more doesn't make their model cheaper
A better comparable, by the way, is the Dreamforge Leviathan. It's targeted to the same crowd, in the same hobby; whereas Gundam is not. But again, if you want to say "The Leviathan is cheaper, so Imperial Knight is a ripoff!" you would need to apply the same logic and say, "The Leviathan is cheaper, so the Judicator is a ripoff!" Neither of which, I think, is fair, because none of these products are a ripoff. They're luxury goods at an arbitrary price, and Bandai and Games Workshop do EXACTLY the same thing. They price the model at the price that they feel would optimize their profit!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/17 16:07:57
2015/07/17 16:06:06
Subject: Re:Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
To be fair, you need to have a level playing field. I repeat I was not born yesterday. I'm well aware that things exist. But as multi-faceted plastic kits go, GW is awesome. I have no allegiance, but they make stuff I want to buy. If I wanted overpriced mono-pose resin kits, I'd say go elsewhere. If I wanted overpriced crappy resin GW-inspired daemons, I'd go elsewhere. If I wanted crappy infantry, The non-GW mono-pose infantry selections are higher priced than GW's stuff. Mantic need not apply as I have no interest in KoW.
Now if I want Skaven, Necrons, Nids, Night goblins, High/Dark Elves, GW's value in plastic wins out. If Company B starts with the intention to outdo GWlol. The newcrons are one of the sexiest armies out there.
Original and creative are 2 different facets. Saying GW isn't creative b/c they aren't 100% original is spurious. GW produces some original, baller, multi-faceted kits FOR wargaming.
In no way, shape or form have I ever said GW couldn't/shouldn't do better. I don't blame GW for being a business that's trying to protect itself, Have lawyers will shoot, anybody here would sue just as fast and bleed an offender dry, if possible. Don't act like mercy is a common action. The courts are packed with trivial trife. If GW was going to court, why should they not go all out? Get it over with and set the lines of distinction. Why should I care, wasn't my grandma. When they went overboard they got reeled in, everything's gravy now.
GW wrapped up WHFB in a spectacular fashion.
I'd prefer if the Sig guys used bolt-action rifles, personally.
If I'm being short-sighted, #$^& everything
Edit spelling grammer
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/07/17 19:09:58
2015/07/17 16:10:20
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
I'm not sure how many of the people who always jump to Gundam models as "these are superior to GW in every way" have ever bought a Gundam model
He has a point, most people who build Gunpla dont know 40K even exists and vice versa.
Even then, I know Gundam is a (decently) popular TV show, but most people keep there love of it at that.
Now I build 40K (obviously) and Gunpla regularly but IMO; Their quality isnt superior or inferior to one another but feel different.
Gunpla feels lighter in a way, and feels much more fragile. As they are meant to be put onto cool poses and then put on display. Never meant for a lot of use.
40K feels heaver, much more thick and dense plastic. Because they are meant to be handled a lot due to them being used constantly in the game.
But both show a lot of detail, and both have people who put a lot of time into making them look the best they can.
Where was I? I forgot the point that I was making. I said if I was smart that I would save up for a piece of string and a rock, to wind a string around. Cause everybody wants a rock to wind a piece of string around. Open the crib-door wide, let the people crawl inside, for someone in this town; Wants to burn the playhouse down. They want to stop the ones who want a rock to wind a piece of string around.
Glistening white, triangular too, Open up a can of Tomato Juice.
Even Old New York, was once New Ampsterdam. Why they changed it I can't say. People just liked it better that way.
2015/07/17 16:29:57
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Talys wrote: @Keezus - Number of parts isn't just a cheap jab. Look on many of the kits on GW's website, and they actually say number of parts. It's important for some people, because it describes the complexity of the finished model.
For instance, a 15 part infantry model will be more complex than a 3 part infantry model, because even though both may look great, the 15 part one will have fewer undercuts (dare I say, none), and be in a pose not possible with the 3 part model, due to constraints of 2-part molds. Some people enjoy modelling complex kits, others don't. For instance, do I want a molded cable that's a part of the arm, or do I prefer the cable as a tiny part that I separately glue in? Do I want a 1-piece canopy, or do I want 10 fiddly bits to assemble each piece of the frame, then fill it, sand it, etc? (which requires some skill, by the way)
That's a rubbish analogy and you know it. A 15 piece model can be more complex than a 3 part one... but not necessarily. Complexity is introduced to a model kit to serve some purpose (articulation, the ability to model with hatches open, to provide more detail) or deal with some sort of engineering limitation (i.e. undercuts, parts that stick out too far from the mould etc).
Take the bog standard space marine for example. A space marine is assembled in its most basic form with 1x head, 2x torso, 1x backpack, 1x left arm, 1x right arm, 2x pauldron, 1x weapon and 1x leg. That's 10 pieces. How about a Catachan? He's built out of 1x head, 1x torso, 1x left arm, 1x right arm and 1x weapon and 1x legs. He's 6 parts... does this make him less complex? Not really. Does he have less posability? Not really. Could the SM torso also be one piece? It sure could! In fact it is one of my pet peeves that it isn't... there's little reason that the front and backs of the marine body is separate, considering that the backs are all the same!!!!!! You could have optional fronts pre-attached to the identical backs AND save space on the sprues. The rest are option parts. The parts count on the GW website lets the buyer know how many option parts they are getting. Pure parts-count alone means diddly squat when used as measure of complexity. Look at Wyrd's Malifaux kits... they are a billion parts for some reason. There's absolutely zero reason that some fiddly detail like a belt buckle or a ribbon should be a separate piece. This is not "complexity"... it's fething poor engineering. Guys with tubes that need to be glued on? This isn't complexity... it's an engineering workaround as it's not possible to cast it attached to either of the two parts that the hose is supposed to be connected to.
IMHO - more parts by itself is a poor measure of value. More options..? Great. More parts = more complexity? Give me a break.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/17 16:35:12
2015/07/17 16:32:03
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
@ Talys, I think you'll find that just as much effort goes into modelling and painting a Gundam "toy" as does a GW "figure". Please try to keep an open mind about this, I know that you have your preferences, as do we all, but we're discussing complexity of kits as comparison, not subjective matters such as personal preference.
Here's a site with a tutorial on building a "beginning" gundam kit (versus the more involved kits out there) and painting it.
You'll notice some striking similarities between this and what goes into building and painting a GW kit, odd since they're just "toys" in your opinion.
You and I have discussed Dreamforge's kits before and, aesthetics and personal preference aside, the Leviathan kits make GW kits look like toys. Sheer piece count and complexity of the build is through the roof. I'll probably never use the silly thing for anything but it's a beautifully complex model and was so incredibly fun to build.
See the joints on these legs? They're fully posable and pistons actually work.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/17 16:38:43
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2015/07/17 16:33:37
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
@agnosto - my point was that a Leviathan is a better direct comparison to an Imperial Knight than a Gundam. I'm not going to wade into which is better, because it's just too much preference, and that debate has been argued to death. Nobody is going to change their minds anyways, so it's a waste of time.
@keezus - it's not rubbish at all. There are poses that are impossible with a small number of parts.
The single greatest problem of onepiece marines is that when arms cross, you have undercuts. You can't model the space between the weapon and the torso. Maybe that's not important to you; it's very important to me. A model which I can paint every part of feels complete, and I'll spend much more time building, than say, a PP metal model with a couple of pieces that has severe undercuts.
The single greatest advantage of multipart marines is the sheer number of combinations possible. You can match different marks of armor, different shoulders, etc. for vastly different looks. If that isn't important to you, space marines aren't being marketed to you. But obviously, since it's GW's best selling product line ever (and I would argue, the greatest reason for 40k's success), it's important to enough people to matter.
They are the only faction of model of any brand that I can imagine and enjoy modelling hundreds of similar infantry of, and it's precisely because there are so many interchangeable parts. As an example, when the upgrade packs came out (which contain 10 unique shoulders, and a number of miscellaneous parts), I bought 10 of each one for each faction (so as to build complete squads with matching shoulders) -- as did many other people. If there's anything GW is great at, it's marketing to and making products for the Space Marine niche.
But anyways, I digress. I have my day off, so I'm gonna paint some drop pods instead of arguing about models on Dakka G'day, man, game on!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/17 17:34:42
2015/07/17 17:40:48
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
you guyz are all crazy. have you seen what the plastic sprue of a Gundam model looks like compare to the plastic sprue on the new age of sigmar box. the detail on a sigmar model crazy better.
you might as well compare gi joe figures to space marines.
2015/07/17 17:44:25
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Actually, I think you'll find they're mostly being compared to Imperial Knights.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
i don't own any of the big gundam models, but i got one of the smaller Gundams when i was flying thru narita airport
so it's not a good comparison to imperial knight, but the small ones really are like kids toys compared to sigmar models which is what i meant
the big ones i have seen assembled on store shelves, the parts are not really all that awesome (look at the hands for eg, ik has so much more detail). but end of the day either one can be made to look awesome if you paint it real good.
i think there are a lot more people who buy gundam models than gw models because this is rly popular in japan. but i think a lot more people paint gw models than gundam models, because this is not big at all. i mean, sure, some people do, but its not a big hobby.
2015/07/17 18:03:24
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Right, so your opinion is essentially based on one model you bought in an airport and your own unsubstantiated thinks?
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Talys wrote: @Keezus - Number of parts isn't just a cheap jab. Look on many of the kits on GW's website, and they actually say number of parts. It's important for some people, because it describes the complexity of the finished model.
For instance, a 15 part infantry model will be more complex than a 3 part infantry model, because even though both may look great, the 15 part one will have fewer undercuts (dare I say, none), and be in a pose not possible with the 3 part model, due to constraints of 2-part molds. Some people enjoy modelling complex kits, others don't. For instance, do I want a molded cable that's a part of the arm, or do I prefer the cable as a tiny part that I separately glue in? Do I want a 1-piece canopy, or do I want 10 fiddly bits to assemble each piece of the frame, then fill it, sand it, etc? (which requires some skill, by the way)
Though another thing to bear in mind with GW is that a kit for ten models may contain sixty pieces - of which forty are used.
Not a complaint - that is one of the things that I like about GW models (and why I wish that more models were as poseable as the earlier kits for Fantasy).
But the number of pieces in the box is not an accurate means to define complexity.
I am not a fan of giant mecha in general - if I were to sit down and try to design the worst possible war machine, mecha would be close to the top. (Especially in Battletech, where the pilot sits in the least armored part of the mech, which is also the first part of the mech to clear the horizon. *BOOM!* Gone before it can make a shot....)
That said... there really is little reason for GW to be charging the amount that they have chosen for their Knight. (Much as I may like the look of the silly thing.)
The Auld Grump
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Zen117 wrote: o yea, the NDK is a better comparison for the medium size Gundam . just look at how much more detail. anyways peace out.
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Azreal13 wrote: Right, so your opinion is essentially based on one model you bought in an airport and your own unsubstantiated thinks?
my opinion based on having seen the real thing (both sizes) of both products. and I actually own one. do you?
and whats wrong with an airport, you can buy Gundam stuff in Japan all over the place.
Hell, you can buy some in variety stores in Okinawa.... And I don't think that WH40K ever reached the point where you could buy space marines in a 7-11....
The Auld Grump
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/17 18:45:12
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2015/07/17 18:47:23
Subject: Anyone kind of hopeing AoS is the final nail for GW?
Zen117 wrote: o yea, the NDK is a better comparison for the medium size Gundam . just look at how much more detail. anyways peace out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: Right, so your opinion is essentially based on one model you bought in an airport and your own unsubstantiated thinks?
my opinion based on having seen the real thing (both sizes) of both products. and I actually own one. do you?
and whats wrong with an airport, you can buy Gundam stuff in Japan all over the place.
None of which supports your argument about who paints what.
Equally, I can buy model kits from the newsagent around the corner, but they're typically very basic, push fit, entry level stuff, was there a model shop in the airport, or is it also likely a simple, non representative, budget kit?
I've owned some Combined Arms kits, and I've seen plenty, not that it really makes any odds.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
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