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Vetril wrote:
The rules spell out exactly what you're supposed to do: attack with all the weapons you have. It's explicitly written. The fact that a unit has a rule that grants it rerolls when it uses 2 weapons does not mean that you get to ignore the general rules, otherwise it would have said so: "instead of attacking with all your weapons, you get rerolls".

orc warboss: boss choppa 6 attacks, 2x boss choppa = 8 attacks instead of 6 attacks

orc warboss has 1 boss choppa he has 6 attacks
orc warboss has 2 boss choppas he has 8 attacks x 2 => 16 attacks?
do you realy think thats how it works?

No, the warboss has a rule that explicitly states he gets a total of 8 attacks when he uses 2 choppas. Why is that they felt the need to point it out?
If the dreadlord had a similar rule that explicitly specified the number of attacks for using 2 exile blades, I'd agree that he doesn't get to make 12 attacks. As it is, imho he does.

Furthermore, I fail to see how perceived balance has any weight in this discussion. It might well be that having 12 attacks is unbalanced, but it is no reason to ignore specific, explicit rules. It wouldn't even be the first time GW releases rules that by RAW are unbalanced (or even by RAI, for what it matters).

Choppa
Boss:
Orc Warbosses can carve their way through even more foes when they wield a pair of Boss Choppas. These Bosses make 8 attacks, instead of 6.

thats the exact rule
it doesnt say These Bosses make 8 attacks, instead of 12.
its These Bosses make 8 attacks, instead of 6.

where would be the logic in giving everyone with 2 weapons more attacks and only him less?

I wouldn't know, but oobviously if they felt the need to write down that he gets 8 attacks, it is because that's an exception to a general rule.
The rules do say that a model with multiple weapons attacks with all of them, and go on to explain how many attacks you get from your weapons. Where does it say that the general rules ddon't apply in the case of a dreadlord?
Show me solid evidence and I will immediately change my mind!

but if its only an exception to a general rule
why write 8 attacks instead of 6
by your logic it should be 8 attacks instead of 12
the general rule would be 6 attacks x 2 weapons = 12 attacks
then his rule 8 attacks instead of 12

or

is his rule 8 attacks instead of 6 attacks so 8 x 2 = 16 attacks

Rihgu wrote:

Did the math: Dual Exile Blades result in .4 average damage (somebody check my math here, because I have to have messed up somewhere). A Chill blade results in an average of 2.6 with -1 rend.

Don't ever take Exile Blades, let alone 2.

So if you get 12 attacks, make that .8 average damage... compared to 2.6 with -1 rend...

I'd say the Chill Blade is pretty close to that kind of power level

That maths is terrible.

2 exile blades (assuming 12 attacks) results in 9.33 hits (remember you re-roll 1s to hit), 4.66 wounds and hence 4.66 damage
Chillblade results in 2 hits, 1.33 wounds wounds and therefore 2.66 damage, with -1 rend

It depends how much you think -1 rend is worth, but I'm not sure if it's worth 2 whole points of damage. Still, it could be, in which case I take your point. If only we had something like points values to help us estimate the worth of things...

PenPen wrote:
Choppa
Boss:
Orc Warbosses can carve their way through even more foes when they wield a pair of Boss Choppas. These Bosses make 8 attacks, instead of 6.

This is the best evidence I've seen thus far in the rules that proves that double weapons don't give double attacks, and frankly a lot better than anything I thought people would find. I think this reinforces this side of the argument very strongly indeed.

It says 8 instead of 6 because normally you get 6 by virtue of having 1 choppa. If you take a second choppa, you get 8 attacks instead of 6.
Why would they tell you that a model attacks with all its weapons, and why would they refer to weapons (plural) in the rules that tell you how many attacks you roll, if having two weapons of a kind is supposed to give rerolls? Furthermore, the dreadlord rule says that you scroll 1s if you are equipped with 2 exile blades. It says nothing about the number of attacks, so you must use the general rules to figure it out. It's very different from the Warboss rule.
I still feel you are ignoring the general rules when you choose to conclude that a dreadlord with 2 blades only gets 6 attacks. It seems arbitrary to me.

found another nice example that gw doesnt know, how to write rules
ogres:
Ogre Club or Blade 3 attacks
Ogre Clubs and blades:
All Ogres know that two clubs are better than one. You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for an Ogre armed with more than one Ogre Club or Blade.

Mournfang Cavalry:
Ogre Clubs and Blades 3 attacks
Ogre Clubs and blades:
All Ogres know that two clubs are better than one. You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for an Ogre armed with more than one Ogre Club or Blade.

i think single and plural of the weapon is the same for gw

I think attacks are based upon the weapons that show in the profile, not in anything mentioned in the unit rules subsection.

If the profile states:

@Weapon: X Attacks, Y to-hit, Z-to wound, etc.

and only mentions the weapon a single time in the weapon profile, that doesn't change if the rules section gives you an option to have two of those weapons. If you have two, you only get the specific benefit listed in the rules section for having two of those weapons, nothing else.

I interpret the section of the rules stating that the model attacks with the weapons it has to be referring specifically to the weapons appearing in the weapon section of the unit's entry, nothing else.

Vetril wrote:
Mikhail, if you bothered to review the discussion, you'd see that I directly quoted the relevant rules on my second post. I'm not making anything up.

I reviewed the entire discussion and read the rules twice. You are choosing to only read part of the rules, and not look at the examples of other similar warscrolls.




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Saldiven wrote:
I think attacks are based upon the weapons that show in the profile, not in anything mentioned in the unit rules subsection.

If the profile states:

@Weapon: X Attacks, Y to-hit, Z-to wound, etc.

and only mentions the weapon a single time in the weapon profile, that doesn't change if the rules section gives you an option to have two of those weapons. If you have two, you only get the specific benefit listed in the rules section for having two of those weapons, nothing else.

I interpret the section of the rules stating that the model attacks with the weapons it has to be referring specifically to the weapons appearing in the weapon section of the unit's entry, nothing else.

Exactly this.

At this point I'm just tired of repeating myself.
Play the game as you prefer, as I said your interpretation is at worst irrelevant to me.

[brainfart]

Vetril wrote:
At this point I'm just tired of repeating myself.
Play the game as you prefer, as I said your interpretation is at worst irrelevant to me.

Hey, you came here looking for other peoples opinions. Apologies that everyone seems to disagree with you. Good luck arguing with your friends. Hope they don't notice this thread, might make it tougher to convince them.

 mikhaila wrote:

Vetril wrote:
At this point I'm just tired of repeating myself.
Play the game as you prefer, as I said your interpretation is at worst irrelevant to me.

Hey, you came here looking for other peoples opinions. Apologies that everyone seems to disagree with you. Good luck arguing with your friends. Hope they don't notice this thread, might make it tougher to convince them.

I merely feel I clearly made my point. I don't argue with friends, we'll reach a common ground and play together. By the way, since I play wood elves, your interpretation is advantageous to me.

I think the "all their weapons" is for units like a Skaven Warlord who can use:

Warpforged Blade
Pair of Barbed Blades
War halberd and Barbed Blade

It's to make it clear that in option 3, you don't have to pick one weapon or the other during combat. You get to use both.

Sigmarites, I think, also come with their hammers and a sword?

 streamdragon wrote:
I think the "all their weapons" is for units like a Skaven Warlord who can use:

Warpforged Blade
Pair of Barbed Blades
War halberd and Barbed Blade

It's to make it clear that in option 3, you don't have to pick one weapon or the other during combat. You get to use both.

Sigmarites, I think, also come with their hammers and a sword?

Soulgrinders come with three close combat weapons, as another example.

Weighing in to agree with the Mikhaila camp. Stat line of weapon offers the attacks for the weapon, and using a pair grants the ability shown in he description. One blade gives you X attacks. Two blades gives you X attacks plus a bonus rule. Not 2X attacks plus bonus rule. GW has always been a permissive ruleset: if it tells you you can do it, go for it. It's like a twin linked bolter: you don't get extra shots, despite it basically being a double tap, you just re-roll a miss. As such, I'd say no way to doubled attacks PLUS a bonus. If I were playing another player in a friendly game and they were adamant about doing so, I'd pack up my stuff.

RAW : You get teice the attacks.
RAI : You only get the special ability

 Allot wrote:
RAW : You get teice the attacks.
RAI : You only get the special ability

I disagree with your interpretation of "RAW."

The weapons the unit is armed with are in the weapons section at the top of the warscroll. Everything down below are special rules, not weapons.

My take on multiple weapons:

Take Orcs:

Description
A unit of Orcs has 10 or more models.
Units of Orcs are armed either with
Choppas or Pigstikka Spears, and carry
Waaagh! Shields. Some units of Orcs are
instead armed with a pair of Choppas.

That's their base equipment. And from what I can gather, what each indevidual model is either geared the same (Descriptions often tell you what they HAVE or can have) or if they are able to be geared separately. Regardless, in the example of this Orc unit, they are either armed with Choppas OR spears but always have a shield. Or, you give up a weapon AND shield for a pair of choppas.

Choppas: Wielding two weapons gives
an Orc a better chance of landing a blow.
You can re-roll hit rolls of 1 for a model
attacking with two Choppas.

So for basic Orcs, having two chopps does not grant extra attacks like some would think. Instead, the benefit is you get to Reroll 1's on your melee attacks if your unit is equipped with double choppas.

Then we go back to the Orc Warboss:

Description
An Orc Warboss is a single model. Some
Orc Warbosses are armed with a Boss
Choppa and a Boss Shield, while others
wield a pair of Boss Choppas. Some instead
enter battle with a single Massive Choppa
or a Great Waaagh! Banner.

Again, we have some options for him. Base, he comes with the Boss Choppa and Boss Shield. Or, you can give him two Boss Choppas, but no shield. OR, you can give him a Massive Choppa OR a Great Waaaagh! Banner.

Choppa Boss: Orc Warbosses can carve
their way through even more foes when
they wield a pair of Boss Choppas. These
Bosses make 8 attacks, instead of 6.

So unlike the basic Orc Boyz, he has permission to gain extra attacks by having double choppas as opposed to Rerolling 1's.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

RAW : You get teice the attacks.
RAI : You only get the special ability

Agreed but will be playing it 100% RAI.

I'll even add on to my previous post, another example that applies a bit more to the situation. Savage Orcs have multiple weapon profiles. But they don't get to use all of them.

A unit of Savage Orcs has 10 or more
models. Some units of Savage Orcs fight
with Stone Choppas while others fight with
Flint Spears. These units also carry either
Bone Shivs to make themselves even more
fighty, or Crude Shields for much needed
protection in combat.

Some units of Savage Orcs are instead
armed with Feral Bows. These units are
also equipped with either Stone Choppas,
to hack the foe apart up close, or fistfuls
of Extra Arrows to make themselves dead
shooty; Savage Orcs with Extra Arrows
simply punch anything that gets too close
with their Gnarled Fists.

For every ten Savage Orcs in the unit, two
may carry a Big Stabba between them.

The description is pretty clear. You decide what the unit is equipped with, and that is what they get. You have several options.

-They Stone Choppas or Flint Spears, AND also get either bone Shives or Shield.

-They get Bows AND a Stone Choppa or Extra Arrows which means they punch with their fist instead of getting a real close combat weapon, but also get +1 to hit on their ranged attacks.

-For every 10, two of the models may replace their wargear to share a Big Stabba profile. (At least, that is how i interpret this rule, I could very well be incorrect and these two models still get their base gear but also share this weapon)

Thanks for clarifying something that was never questioned Melevolence

As I've yet to play a game (perhaps this Sunday), this is good to know that one doesn't just double the number of attacks because an extra weapon is used. Makes sense, as it's clearly (in most cases) ruled that you get special benefits and not always just extra attacks.

Hahahaha I keep thinking that the meaning of TFG should instead refer to Age of Sigmar as "That Freaking Game".

I can see both sides of the discussion here. But with GW games it is very confusing as what is meant to be used RAW and RAI. So, as it says in our oh so well written four page rules to play by, it says to roll off if an agreent cannot be reached. So, I would say bring up your points to an opponent if you are using that model, or if your opponent is using it instead. And roll away. One can only hope that this is a public beta test of the system before they hammer it out a little more and release the MKII rule set with our input taken into account.


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I very frequently talk negatively about GW and it's games nowadays, but it seems like they are making an honest effort, and in a White Dwarf it even says to send them your input about the game. Which to me says that GW in their very vague fashion are interested in our opinion for once. Which I very happy about if that is the truth.

Ogre tyrant has the same problem with 2 slicers/bashers/clubs.

You get 6 attacks if you have 1 of those weapons, and rerolls if you have duplicates.

3+\3+ rend -1 damage 2

And

Ogres w/ 2 clubs or blades get to reroll 1's
Base: 3A 4+\3+ R0 D2

Can honestly say I won't play a game with someone trying for doubled attacks AND reroll bonuses. The scroll dictates what one weapon does, and lays out what adding a duplicate does. There is no RAW vs RAI here. There IS however RAIP*

*rules as interpreted poorly.

Honestly I can see the argument going either way, but from this thread alone I can see that the rules need to be clarified.

Yea, I feel that the rules need to be based out a little more. Even though I do have faith this system could it fact be good thing for GW if they expand it a little more.

Going by the rules as written you get both double the attacks and the special rule. There is nothing saying you can't have both that doesn't rely on assumptions.