Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 n0t_u wrote:
If you're not siding with the Inquisition in this you're either not fully understanding the situation or trying to push real world morals into your view point. The Inquisition has no such luxury.

except WE do. and thats why it's such a great story. because our head tells us one thing, our heart tells us another thing, and we find ourselves feeling sympathy for both sides. we know the inqusition is proably right, but at the same time, we look at the space wolves, and a part of us hopes they're right. thus, we watch these two forces go head to head and we find ourselves not sure who we want to win. It's why it's such a good story. and ADB did a GREAT job with it

In the end I have to believe the wolves were right.

In a totally non-biased opinion, totally not based as all upon awesome dudes riding awesome wolves, I say screw the Inquisition.

A vote for 'screw the Inquisition' is a vote for 'screw humanity'.

BrianDavion wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
If you're not siding with the Inquisition in this you're either not fully understanding the situation or trying to push real world morals into your view point. The Inquisition has no such luxury.

except WE do. and thats why it's such a great story. because our head tells us one thing, our heart tells us another thing, and we find ourselves feeling sympathy for both sides. we know the inqusition is proably right, but at the same time, we look at the space wolves, and a part of us hopes they're right. thus, we watch these two forces go head to head and we find ourselves not sure who we want to win. It's why it's such a good story. and ADB did a GREAT job with it

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

When hope is lost, we are lost.

Hope is the last thing to go, and when all is lost, there is always hope. And for answering the OP, I want the Wolves to be right, but chaos is just so dangerous, and the Wolves didn't really have an actual plan for what to do instead.

Hope is the beginning of unhappiness.
-- Imperial Thought for the Day.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A vote for 'screw the Inquisition' is a vote for 'screw humanity'.

So let us burn those who did it with fire?

I don't want to set the world on fire...

... I just want to light a flame under your heretics.

It makes no sense fluff wise. They do not normally destroy the billions upon billions of guardsmen who have fought against chaos. So why did they this time? 'To keep the existance of Chaos a secret'... I call BS! Chaos is known by humanity across the imperium. We are in the 41st Millenium not the 31st!

 raiden wrote:
At what point is it right to become a monster to beat a monster. That's the question here.

The point is to put this into our morale views.

Wolves are the monster. Remember Prospero,

Poly Ranger wrote:
It makes no sense fluff wise. They do not normally destroy the billions upon billions of guardsmen who have fought against chaos. So why did they this time? 'To keep the existance of Chaos a secret'... I call BS! Chaos is known by humanity across the imperium. We are in the 41st Millenium not the 31st!

The Guardsmen who fight chaos and aren't killed only ever fight the archenemy's mortal troops and occasional Space Marines.

The whole point of Armageddon was that it was a full-scale daemonic incursion. There weren't any cultists or Chaos Marines on Armageddon. Those enemies can be fought without necessarily latching onto the guardsmens' brains - against the Archenemy's living troops, the only real dangers are being shot and shellshock save the occasional encounter with a witch.

On Armageddon, every guardsman was in direct conflict with the forces of the Immaterium. It wasn't contact with chaos that they needed to be destroyed for, it was contact with unfiltered warpstuff.

Poly Ranger wrote:
It makes no sense fluff wise. They do not normally destroy the billions upon billions of guardsmen who have fought against chaos. So why did they this time? 'To keep the existance of Chaos a secret'... I call BS! Chaos is known by humanity across the imperium. We are in the 41st Millenium not the 31st!

That's what Commissars are for. And Guardsmen don't actually face the manifest forces of the Warp all that often.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
It makes no sense fluff wise. They do not normally destroy the billions upon billions of guardsmen who have fought against chaos. So why did they this time? 'To keep the existance of Chaos a secret'... I call BS! Chaos is known by humanity across the imperium. We are in the 41st Millenium not the 31st!

The Guardsmen who fight chaos and aren't killed only ever fight the archenemy's mortal troops and occasional Space Marines.

The whole point of Armageddon was that it was a full-scale daemonic incursion. There weren't any cultists or Chaos Marines on Armageddon. Those enemies can be fought without necessarily latching onto the guardsmens' brains - against the Archenemy's living troops, the only real dangers are being shot and shellshock save the occasional encounter with a witch.

On Armageddon, every guardsman was in direct conflict with the forces of the Immaterium. It wasn't contact with chaos that they needed to be destroyed for, it was contact with unfiltered warpstuff.

actually you're wrong. there where indeed CSMs on Armageddon. world eater's where present as well as deamons. but yeah, it was definatly waaaay above the norm.

The presence of the World Eaters is far, far less-important than the presence of the Daemon-Primarch Angron, and the hordes of actual Daemons.

An evil Space Marine is bad, but the literal denizens of Hell are far, far worse.

 Psienesis wrote:
The presence of the World Eaters is far, far less-important than the presence of the Daemon-Primarch Angron, and the hordes of actual Daemons.

An evil Space Marine is bad, but the literal denizens of Hell are far, far worse.

and the absolutly worst thing possiable is a deamon primarch. the emperor's very own flesh and blood corrupted to the service of the enemy. I imagine that's pretty supressed.

Yep. The very sight of Angron is the sort of thing that can lead to entire worlds turning from the Ecclesiarchy and falling to the worship of the Ruinous Powers. The knowledge of such monstrosities can lead to soul-shattering revelations. Fire and brimstone, thunder and lightning, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria.

I'll have to check my sources to make sure and you know I'd just -hate- to burst the bubble of all the Fenryka haters....but didn't they agree about the potential fate of the Guardsmen on the frontline, but argued the strongest for the PDF and Hive Cities that were behind the lines and never saw a single daemon....?

 FireWolf698 wrote:
I'll have to check my sources to make sure and you know I'd just -hate- to burst the bubble of all the Fenryka haters....but didn't they agree about the potential fate of the Guardsmen on the frontline, but argued the strongest for the PDF and Hive Cities that were behind the lines and never saw a single daemon....?

It is not seeing a demon. It is knowing they exist. And you can bet that everyone knew.

And Grimnar's methods to suppress that ensured that both Astartes and Guard forces suffered even greater numbers of casualties. Such a humanitarian.

 curran12 wrote:

 FireWolf698 wrote:
I'll have to check my sources to make sure and you know I'd just -hate- to burst the bubble of all the Fenryka haters....but didn't they agree about the potential fate of the Guardsmen on the frontline, but argued the strongest for the PDF and Hive Cities that were behind the lines and never saw a single daemon....?

It is not seeing a demon. It is knowing they exist. And you can bet that everyone knew.

And Grimnar's methods to suppress that ensured that both Astartes and Guard forces suffered even greater numbers of casualties. Such a humanitarian.

That's just it, the CIVILLIANS are specifically stated to have NOT known Bout chaos, they didn't know what they were fighting, the wolves suggested the stratagey knowing it would cost many more wolf and guard lives, -because- the civilians still didnt know about chaos, and he wanted to keep it that way BECAUSE he didn't want them killed.

 raiden wrote:
I enjoy the Months of Shame story, it is a tale of morally grey story, with both sides in the right and wrong, fighting for what they believe. One of the few stories I feel was done very well in that regard.

On that note, I was wondering what dakka's concsesus was on which side you think is in the right.

The Inquisition / grey knights

Or the space wolves?

Nobody was right, both behaved like asses.

I refuse to acknowledge neither the inquisitor nor grimnar saw all of it coming

My opinion is that both factions allowed all of this to become a pissing match between a first founding chapter and the inquisition

 raiden wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

 FireWolf698 wrote:
I'll have to check my sources to make sure and you know I'd just -hate- to burst the bubble of all the Fenryka haters....but didn't they agree about the potential fate of the Guardsmen on the frontline, but argued the strongest for the PDF and Hive Cities that were behind the lines and never saw a single daemon....?

It is not seeing a demon. It is knowing they exist. And you can bet that everyone knew.

And Grimnar's methods to suppress that ensured that both Astartes and Guard forces suffered even greater numbers of casualties. Such a humanitarian.

That's just it, the CIVILLIANS are specifically stated to have NOT known Bout chaos, they didn't know what they were fighting, the wolves suggested the stratagey knowing it would cost many more wolf and guard lives, -because- the civilians still didnt know about chaos, and he wanted to keep it that way BECAUSE he didn't want them killed.

and it's worth noting though that the civilians where NOT killed. however they WHERE sterlized. and THAT suggests there where concerns other then JUST knowledge of chaos. my guess is just being on a world with that level of chaos was gonna taint their genetics. any future children would have a MUCH MUCH higher chance of mutation

You cold hard gaks


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 raiden wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

 FireWolf698 wrote:
I'll have to check my sources to make sure and you know I'd just -hate- to burst the bubble of all the Fenryka haters....but didn't they agree about the potential fate of the Guardsmen on the frontline, but argued the strongest for the PDF and Hive Cities that were behind the lines and never saw a single daemon....?

It is not seeing a demon. It is knowing they exist. And you can bet that everyone knew.

And Grimnar's methods to suppress that ensured that both Astartes and Guard forces suffered even greater numbers of casualties. Such a humanitarian.

That's just it, the CIVILLIANS are specifically stated to have NOT known Bout chaos, they didn't know what they were fighting, the wolves suggested the stratagey knowing it would cost many more wolf and guard lives, -because- the civilians still didnt know about chaos, and he wanted to keep it that way BECAUSE he didn't want them killed.

and it's worth noting though that the civilians where NOT killed. however they WHERE sterlized. and THAT suggests there where concerns other then JUST knowledge of chaos. my guess is just being on a world with that level of chaos was gonna taint their genetics. any future children would have a MUCH MUCH higher chance of mutation

They were sterilized wtf? Taint is hereditary?

They were sterilized wtf? Taint is hereditary?

Of course. The Warp is magic, and the concept of "the bloodline of a witch" or similar things is not so far-fetched. Why wouldn't the influence of Chaos be able to extend along generations?

Even the gene-damaging effects of real-life radiation can do this, why not the radiation from the very fires of Hell, born from an alternate dimension of sentient, and homicidal, emotions?

From a moral and ethical perspective the answer is NO what the inquisition did was not right. Preemptively slaughtering the guard regiments that had served is not right even if it did prevent chaos taint from spreading.

A better solution would have been to make the guard regiments into an “anti-daemon incursion force” to work directly under the inquisition so they would not have to risk corrupting more soldiers in the future and they could keep an eye on them directly.

That risks *every* planet that Inquisitor visits, as well as the Inquisitor himself, his fellow Inquisitors, and whatever high-security, ultra-top-secret information or artifacts they might have been in possession of.

Inquisitors know the risks, though - an Inquisitor is at that risk whether they have a private army or not.

I think far less at risk when using, say, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers or seconded Sisters of Battle than Guardsmen who have been exposed to a Daemon-Primarch.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think far less at risk when using, say, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers or seconded Sisters of Battle than Guardsmen who have been exposed to a Daemon-Primarch.

I actually doubt this. Although technically it WOULD cost more, the benefits far outway the costs IMO.

If you apply the same level of training and indoctrination to the guard regiments that survived fighting against the pure unrestrained forces of the warp then it is plausible that they would be MORE loyal, MORE adept at fighting chaos, and MORE valuable than other Inquisitional guard forces available.

This was a missed opportunity due to some paranoia.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
That risks *every* planet that Inquisitor visits, as well as the Inquisitor himself, his fellow Inquisitors, and whatever high-security, ultra-top-secret information or artifacts they might have been in possession of.

I doubt that its any more of a risk then seeking out various ways to bond daemons souls to human bodies to use as soldiers and all the other crazy crap the inquisition does with chaos from time to time.