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What I was saying is that running pure White Lions + Lion Chariots in 8th edition was house ruling anyways, it's just now it's been flipped so that points = house rules and take whatever = actual rules.

I don't see what the difference is besides in 8th edition the points were "GW approved", which is ultimately meaningless based on how under/overcosted many units were.

So the options with Age of Sigmar are still the same:
1) Play the "GW approved" way.
2) House rules.

Even an unbalanced point system was still something to work with. Besides, house ruling to not use a points system (or even just adjust a few choices) is hardly on equal ground with having to make your own for a system that doesn't have one at all.

Just the fact that you guys have to even talk about fixing a game from a multi-million dollar/pound company who went on record stating that they have plenty of cash reserves is laughable.

Spend your time and money elsewhere. I'm not saying abandon GW or your favorite game, but don't try to do GW's job for them.

It's this strange abuse-taking mindset is what allowed GW to do this to you.

It's like Nigerian scammers these days still saying they're from Nigeria in their scam emails. They do this because anyone who responds are obviously suckers that they can con more money from.

In this case, anyone still spending time and money on this is obviously so far gone that GW knows they can milk even more money from them.

 Vertrucio wrote:
Just the fact that you guys have to even talk about fixing a game from a multi-million dollar/pound company who went on record stating that they have plenty of cash reserves is laughable.

Spend your time and money elsewhere. I'm not saying abandon GW or your favorite game, but don't try to do GW's job for them.

It's this strange abuse-taking mindset is what allowed GW to do this to you.

It's like Nigerian scammers these days still saying they're from Nigeria in their scam emails. They do this because anyone who responds are obviously suckers that they can con more money from.

In this case, anyone still spending time and money on this is obviously so far gone that GW knows they can milk even more money from them.

What it comes down to, often is that gaming isn't black and white, perfect and unplayable.

The best fit on the market for me might be a 75% match for what I'm looking for, combining models, game, what my friends want to play and perhaps many other factors. the next best game for me might be a 55% fit. I'm not talking about any specific game, by the way.

So my option is to self-improve the 75% fit game, perhaps to 85%, and be happy with that or go do something else that has nothing to do with gaming. Of course, if everything I did in life had to be a 95%+ fit, I wouldn't do much of anything.

For what its worth had the young lad and his friend with me (14/13) while I picked up some paint Saturday. They did a demo game and were hooked. Both liked the aesthetic of both sides and could not stop jabbering about it. There were also 3 other games of AoS going on (all WFB vets) playing lizards, Vampires, Daemons, and Empire. All seemed to be having a great time.

A closer look at the minis and I am impressed, which caught my attention hobby wise.

Needless to say I walked out of there with a AoS box and my son and his friend have been going at it since.

From my perspective, the game seems fine. My gaming days have been mostely behind me, but I must admit, seeing AoS has got my interest rekindled. It certainly has lowered the cost of entry big time which in my opinion was one of the things killing WFB and also hurting 40k to some extent as well.

The background fluff is a bit wonky though.

Started painting my first eternal today, I'm really enjoying the detail on these figs. They're also definitely designed to take full advantage of the citadel "paint recipe" setup and shades with how the details are indented and such.

Overall, very nice models. I look forward to painting a lot more of them.

 Shadowclaimer wrote:
Started painting my first eternal today, I'm really enjoying the detail on these figs. They're also definitely designed to take full advantage of the citadel "paint recipe" setup and shades with how the details are indented and such.

Overall, very nice models. I look forward to painting a lot more of them.

Indeed, I've now assembled the models in the starter box.
The models are really fantastic.
We will have house rules for playing especially scenarios and balancing.

Rihgu wrote:
What I was saying is that running pure White Lions + Lion Chariots in 8th edition was house ruling anyways, it's just now it's been flipped so that points = house rules and take whatever = actual rules.

I don't see what the difference is besides in 8th edition the points were "GW approved", which is ultimately meaningless based on how under/overcosted many units were.

So the options with Age of Sigmar are still the same:
1) Play the "GW approved" way.
2) House rules.

Yes except for the fact GW won't let you play "house rules" in their stores and if it's the only game store you go to (like it is for me) tough f'ing luck to you buddy.

Since RiTides asked nicely here is this is my opinion on the matter:

"If the silly beer hall rules got trimmed off, and points values put in to help balance the lists...maybe AoS wouldn't be too bad. As it stands though I'm sitting here with my High Elves and Skaven trying to figure out how to even build a list of models to TAKE and play a game to even TRY the rules out.

That said, still depressed the Sigmarines thing turned out to be a drake of some sort instead of a giant cat. "

GWs house, GWs rules I guess.

But I don't suppose the manager is going to stand over you and force you to measure from the model...?

I've never played WHFB but I took a quick look at the story for AoS and all I could think was "why have they made it just like Thor the movie with different realms all fighting each other. Seems a bit of a poor copy to me when they had a pretty stable background for many many years.

Maybe I've missed something but that's how it seems to me.

Somebody on a Warhammer Fantasy Facebook page called me a 'traitor' because I just so happen to like AoS despite the fact that I have great respect and appreciation for oldhammer as well.

Some people take this way to seriously ( Just wait, that high horse their riding will throw them! ) .Age of Sigmar is like any game, subjective and everyone will have their own opinion. However I feel that yes, it has its faults however it is only in its infancy and has the potential to be improved upon at no finacial detriment to us, the players (because the rules are web based and FREE ).I had my first Age of sigmar game on saturday and it was good fun (see my earlier post in this thead).

There is a whole community that can and probably will support the continuance of 8th edition ( pdf copies of Army books, BRB and campaign books etc) as a fan / comminity based project. Not to mention those indipendent stockists that are savy evough to keep hold of their 8th edition stock.

 notprop wrote:
GWs house, GWs rules I guess.

But I don't suppose the manager is going to stand over you and force you to measure from the model...?

Why do you think they have Tasers Electroleech Staves? Bzzzzzzzzzt! "FROM THE BARREL, HERETIC!"

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Yes except for the fact GW won't let you play "house rules" in their stores and if it's the only game store you go to (like it is for me) tough f'ing luck to you buddy.

Both GW's where I play at don't care about playing house rules. Hell, I could even play 8th, their motto being "is it a GW game?" I wouldn't write off all of them.

It's true the game is to have a living rulebook, so things certainly can be added, but they can't change the basic rules that are now in place.

The disappointment of AOS is how little GW changed the rules from WHFB/40K when they had the opportunity to completely re-write them. It isn't a terribad game as it stands,m but it could easily have beena lot better with a bit more effort.

One of the slow and clunky things about AOS (as in WHFB and 40K) is the combat resolution system -- To Hit, To Wound, To Save. GW could have streamlined combat by 1/3rd by getting rid of To Wound rolls. That will be an even bigger factor in playing larger battles.

Isn't it possible to incorporate the percentage chance of wounding into the To Hit and To Save rolls by the use of modifiers and factors? They won't do it now, as it would require rewriting all of the war scrolls.

I have never been a fan of the list building strategy for winning games. The war scrolls avoid that by reducing the amount of customisation in terms of wargear and special rules. But the lack of any indication of power level of units is quite an omission.

It also should have been possible to give each war scroll a power rating, so you could select a fairly balanced force by taking up to say 50 'power points' (or "points") worth of figures.

Another improvement that cannot be done now because it would require rewriting all the scrolls.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It's true the game is to have a living rulebook, so things certainly can be added, but they can't change the basic rules that are now in place.

The disappointment of AOS is how little GW changed the rules from WHFB/40K when they had the opportunity to completely re-write them. It isn't a terribad game as it stands,m but it could easily have beena lot better with a bit more effort.

One of the slow and clunky things about AOS (as in WHFB and 40K) is the combat resolution system -- To Hit, To Wound, To Save. GW could have streamlined combat by 1/3rd by getting rid of To Wound rolls. That will be an even bigger factor in playing larger battles.

Isn't it possible to incorporate the percentage chance of wounding into the To Hit and To Save rolls by the use of modifiers and factors? They won't do it now, as it would require rewriting all of the war scrolls.

I have never been a fan of the list building strategy for winning games. The war scrolls avoid that by reducing the amount of customisation in terms of wargear and special rules. But the lack of any indication of power level of units is quite an omission.

It also should have been possible to give each war scroll a power rating, so you could select a fairly balanced force by taking up to say 50 'power points' (or "points") worth of figures.

Another improvement that cannot be done now because it would require rewriting all the scrolls.

As for incorporating percentages... well, it can be done, but not with d6 system. You really don't have that much of a room for additional factors. It's ridiculous as it is, when an elf with 2h sword is as strong as an ogre whose arm is as big as said elf. But that works with d20 systems such as WarZone Resurrection and Infinity - you have much more room for tampering with rolls with 1-20 spectrum.

As for the discussion - it is worth noting that if this thing is official and goes live, the game will be much different and will require less house ruling: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/655888.page

I wish more people commented on that, as I can see people repeating the same stuff over and over when there might not be need for it. :-)

First game of AoS mini-batrep with painted pics and my thoughts on the game. Now 99% less judgmental!
(reference to another thread in which I got a little heated! Sorry! )

It's primarily an Epic blog, so have a look around while you are there.

Anyone has any idea how to balance stuff like cavalery or special characters? We had a few more games of AoS this weekend and they seem to dominate other type of units. Also how do people deal with flyers, specialy if their army doesn't have access to cavalery or spear armed models.

I struggled with whether to write this. It seems like a foregone conclusion at this point that “Age of Sigmar” will still be played. There’s probably nothing anyone can say to change that; the hand wringing only serves to promote the Game even more.
The thing exists, after all, purely to make money and engender controversy because it’s making money and then make more money off of the controversy it engendered. It has us cornered. If we complain about it, we’re doing exactly what they want us to do.
It’s not like anyone involved in producing this smoldering pile of gaming sewage would necessarily disagree with the criticisms anyway. They know exactly what they’ve done. It’s not as though they thought the game was remotely fair and balanced. It wasn’t like when a King first learned of Chess, or Go, and knew these were epic games destined to become the greatest gaming achievements of all time.
I imagine whoever first cooked up the idea to make a new Age of Sigmar game release probably didn’t even play it. They kind of got the gist and thought, “eh, it’s garbage but it’ll probably make a billion dollars because we can vomit just about anything into the trough and players will come in droves to devour it.”
So before we even get to the content itself, rancid as it is, we already know that the game is cynical and worthless, and, as I’ve previously discussed, born purely out of a desire to bilk Fan-Boyz out of their disposable income. It has no other purpose. It serves no other function. It is an empty vessel (well, a vessel filled with Majiks and Armor, but empty besides that). It’s not art, and anyone who pays to play it is degrading themselves, and I’m not even talking about cheese, broken, and loopholes yet.
It’s a marketing ploy disguised as a game, which is something you could admittedly say about most Games Workshop Products. The difference is that, whereas something like “X-Wing” is a vapid and silly yet relatively harmless game for Star Wars merchandise, “Age of Sigmar” is anything but harmless. It is actively poisonous. Toxic. A spiritual carcinogen. A putrid lump of nothingness.

Wow that's a pretty scathing opinion. Each to their own I guess lol.

The starter set is really of great value.
For somebody who wants get back into the new oldhammer its a good deal.
Actually, its better to have two starter sets which gives you two armies to play with.
Buying a single unit of Liberators (40€) is a no go.

I dunno, I'd have to get some of the new kits to give my Sigmarite army some variation rather than just hammers everywhere.

Personally I'm going to be playing this Wednesday at a local stores game night. They are starting a league up for the following weeks. A slow grow which will be pretty awesome.

I'm really excited to be able to field armies I've always wanted to. For example the heart of my dwarvish army has always been ironbreakers. I had 2 units of 24 back in 7th and would have made them my exclusive core units if I could. Well now I'm selling my metal ones and upgrading to the new plastic ones (love the new look and they are slightly upscaled from previous Dwarf models and likely the new scale since they were released so recently) and building an army around Iron Breakers and Iron Drakes. I think painted right they'll look awesome alongside my Eternals I'm getting with the starter.

Basically I'm hopeful. Doesn't hurt that the 60 Iron Breakers/Iron Drakes will double as 5 regiments for KoW when I feel like playing that for my big game fix

AoS -

THE GOOD

::: they didn't retcon peoples minis
::: it looks like "WHFB lite"
::: seems a fairly stable base to build from

THE BAD

::: not having "points" system clearly is a disaster
::: need to have more "rerolls missed saves" type skills, and "TOUGH" units need to have saves that are immune to rend more and have saves tht make them tough - as it is, killing something "tough" is the same as killing something "squishy" a lot of the time..

Honestly I like aos, but I prefer 8th, I miss weapon and ballistics skills and mostly Initiative. It doesn't make sense for a zombie to attack before anything else in my mind. Personally I just wish fantasy was its own thing, and instead of end times we would get the return of Nagash, Glotkin, rise of the eternity king and maybe some of the events of book four and they just left it there. The events generated alot of interest and I think if gw actually advertised it like they are aos or even licensing movies/ more games like total war people would start to get more into fantasy. Personally whfb was my favorite game, full of good characters with good fluff, its sad to see its all pretty much ended just so we can have Sigmar become emperor with his loyal space Marines in fantasy. First thing to draw me to fantasy was there were no space Marines. But sadly that's ended, but ill continue to play 8th and occasionally dip into AoS on occasion. Its not bad, but its not overall for me.

The only thing I'd like to try with AoS is using its rules along with the old "Slaves to Darkness/Realm of Chaos" chaos warband rules.

I'm just so disgusted with AoS and GW killing off WHFB that I don't know if I can hold my nose long enough to try it.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Basically I'm hopeful. Doesn't hurt that the 60 Iron Breakers/Iron Drakes will double as 5 regiments for KoW when I feel like playing that for my big game fix

That's where I'm at already but fair play to those who want to give AoS a shot!

 Xenocidal Maniac wrote:
First game of AoS mini-batrep with painted pics and my thoughts on the game. Now 99% less judgmental!
(reference to another thread in which I got a little heated! Sorry! )

It's primarily an Epic blog, so have a look around while you are there.

That's a really nice review. Some good thoughts, too. Incidentally, I mentioned a week or so ago that this would attract some people, and I'm glad that I'm not delusional, and that there's at least one such person in the world

The main thing I am excited about is that there is no point system.

...

What has changed is that the jerks will no longer be able to hide behind a “balanced” point system and byzantine, overwrought rules. Gone are the days of “well, hey, it’s in the rules” and “it doesn’t say I can’t” and “yeah, sorry, I know it’s broken, I just like the model so much I wanted 90 of them”. Now everyone will be able to see them exactly for what they are and tell them to go stand in the corner and come back when they’re ready to sit at the adult table.

There is a category of players who say that they seek balance, but love points-based systems because it allows them to gain a significant advantage before the game start. They want to start each game with the biggest advantage allowable under the rules -- one that can predetermine the game outcome in their favor if possible. The only thing balanced is that both players have an opportunity to make very strong or very weak lists; but nothing balances those lists against each other.

I like to theorycraft such lists, but I have little interest in actually playing them, except as an academic exercise, because I think the best games (the ones where I have the most fun) are ones where both sides have a pretty good chance of winning.

Incidentally, a chief complaint in 40k is monobuild armies, and that's a direct result of list optimization. Nobody takes Terminators because something is better for the same number of points. Nobody takes Dreadnoughts for the same reason. Everyone likes Grav weapons. Nobody takes Roughriders. And on and on. Could everything just be balanced by better points lists? A little, but not wholly. Some combos will still be stupidly powerful, and Terminators will either be too cheap, or too expensive, because frankly, their extra durability isn't worth a whole lot, powerfists on very model is a waste of points, and storm bolters are as useless as bolters; it's barely worth losing sweeping advance, and being stuck with 30 year old heavy/special weapons. But in a point-free game, there's plenty of reasons to take them. I know this, because when we design scenarios (which only loosely use points), we often use Terminators to man the defenses or lead a breach. Usually, it's just because we want to play the models

 Talys wrote:
Could everything just be balanced by better points lists? A little, but not wholly.

Correct. This is the problem with game mastery design. In order for some options to be better, others must be worse.

It seems rather unlikely that there won't be 'better' and 'worse' scrolls to be discovered in AOS.