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 doktor_g wrote:
Well, winning tournaments "all the time" is a big big big stretch of the truth.

Are they THE weakest? Who knows.... Are they ONE of the weakest? Yes definitely. Along with AM, CSM, DE, Tau.

Nids? No way... they won the LVO iirc.

Orks won a tournament not that long ago so surely they aren't at the bottom for the same reason why you claim 'Bids aren't bottom :L

 Lord Yayula wrote:

geargutz wrote:
while csm are probably worse than orks right now, the problem is that they can still get a power creep 7th edition codex. we orks already got ours (minus the power creep).

we probably wont get a new codex until edition 9th+

Who knows, CSM is the oldest codex iirc and even by being the oldest we just got new eldar, new SM, and rumours said new AM is soon to come. Maybe GW is considering KDK as their redoing of the CSM even thou it didn't change the terrible cost/profiles of the CSM codex. We might see a new Ork codex before CSM

They already released Nurgle Daemonkin back in october 6th 2012.

Orks suffer through not having staying power in later turns of the game. CSM suffer through having no high rate of fire.

But that's what you get for being the two main bad guys.

 Silverthorne wrote:
Dark Eldar are pretty awful.

Nonsense!

With the release of Eldar, Codex: Dark Eldar Taxi Service is flourishing.

 vipoid wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
Dark Eldar are pretty awful.

Nonsense!

With the release of Eldar, Codex: Dark Eldar Taxi Service is flourishing.

Oh my god...

Sorry, was I too sarcastic?

 vipoid wrote:
Sorry, was I too sarcastic?

Sadly, no. You're right on point.

Sisters are teetering on the brink of existence, but they are certainly not bad. That doesn't mean I don't hate the codex though. The one or two games I had with them went really well though. I also had the forgeworld flier mind you.

I would put orks below csm, for no other reason than that they most likely won't be getting any new dex this edition, and if they're really unlucky they will be among the first codices for the next edition again. Ofc, it looks like csm might be getting one of the last codices this edition, which wouldn't exactly put us in a better spot.

Also, forgeworld still has our back. That may not mean much in tournaments but in casual games that puts us ahead of orks. I've heard some good things about FW ork units, but they don't get nearly as much as csm do. Plus we're about to get chaos knights.

Orks are a mid tier army with potential per game to perform as a bottom tier or top tier depending on the dice. Orks come with an extra layer of randomness that can turn a normal performing shot in to something spectacularly successful or into a shocking failure. Ork stuff is filled with things that will instantly kill it's target on a 6 or leave behind a moving vortex of doom on doubles etc... or their stuff will blow up in their faces on a one. The same randomness that prevents Orks from reliably being a top tier army also prevents Orks from reliably being a low tier army. We have Ork players winning tournaments one day and getting tabled the next. I love Orks myself and they are my favourite army. They are funnest army if you ask me. I got no problem or fear of using them competitively but the mindset can't be waac with this army, the Ork army itself will probably tell the waac to pike it. The mindset is just to have fun and see how the dice goes with these guys.

Edit add: I also agree with the statement that Orks are anti meta with current new codices. There are a few formations that allow Orks to take multiple units and form them into one single horde unit that all benefit from the any special abilities that effect a unit which allows an Ork player to have lots of Orks benefiting from lots of buffs. These formations are the Greentide of boyz which can have anywhere from 100-300 Orks boyz led by a Warboss as one unit (10 units of Boyz and Boss), Boss Zagstruk can put together 15-90 Stormboyz as one single unit as well and I find Stormboyz are quite effective in numbers (3 stormboy units and Boss), while not necessarily one unit Boss Snikrot can take 20-60 Kommandos and they all gain his Ambush and Shrouded rules coming on to which ever side of the board they want without rolling as one but can move and each do their own thing after (4 units and Boss).

Orks have the means to put far more bodies onto the table then what current meta can handle. Current meta has gone in the direction of high strength high AP weapons with low volume of shots. The Orks can take losses from such weapons and have more climbing over the dead bodies. Lots of times Ork models outnumber enemy models 3 to 1 so unless you load up with lots of weapons that are Assault 3+, Heavy 3+ and pieplates instead of single shot D-weapons or single shot AP2 weapons you will find your units stampeded by a carpet of green.

CSMs are weakest.

Four weeks ago I saw three very lucky Grots take a Hive Tyrant from 3 to 1 wound in one round of shooting.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Orks suffer through not having staying power in later turns of the game. CSM suffer through having no high rate of fire.

They also suffer from no infiltrators, poor transport options, no deep strike mitigation, and their only real ally has a caveat that disallows half of the allies interactions. That's before we factor in the internal balance which has MoN better in almost every situation than the other marks. And, of course, Champion of Chaos.

MarsNZ wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Orks suffer through not having staying power in later turns of the game. CSM suffer through having no high rate of fire.

They also suffer from no infiltrators, poor transport options, no deep strike mitigation, and their only real ally has a caveat that disallows half of the allies interactions. That's before we factor in the internal balance which has MoN better in almost every situation than the other marks. And, of course, Champion of Chaos.

Two HQ choices give a guaranteed warlord trait that allows you to infiltrate 1d3 units, so not exactly sure what you're talking about with that one.

edit: As well as Cypher allowing you to infiltrate with Chosen.

 Vasarto wrote:
ork codex is so bad if I could change it I would add X Y Z...

Just homerule it then? God knows the tourney scene isn't king any more and with gentleman's agreements controlling so much of the game homerules are easy as to apply.

Regarding weakest dex, thought it was our boyz but I heard DE got the mean shaft... but the cake goes to Chaos Marines. Seriously you guys have a dex that makes the Orks look like a power house.

My boyz seem to do pretty well most of the time, but I don't play against the most stupid tourney stuff - invisible deathstars, D weapon spam etc etc. I do a hell of a lot better with Orks than I do with daemonkin thats for sure

CSM.

I mean, we are pretty good when you add forgeworld and allies, but on our own we are pretty sad. Haven't been able to run a really 'good' list without using allies for quite some time.

Half of our codex is terrible, the other half is average. We do have a few good units, but even they there are not as good as they used to be (looking at you obliterators)

For all of the people saying SoB, have you ever played a competent sisters player? One of the local guys in my meta shreds lots of players. He runs mostly SoB, with the addition of an inquisitor and an assassin and absolutely stomps people. Exorcist gunlines can be terrifying, in addition to that, dominions are awesome at snagging first blood.

-scout 12"
-move 6", disembark 6"
-pop ignores cover AoF

4 ignores cover melta guns per dominion unit is nothing to laugh at.


Mono build, sure, but not weak by any means.


-edit-
Also, I've had good luck with CSM, by not using CSM.

My winning-est CSM list looks like this

Crimson slaughter CAD

Nurgle bike lord with daemonheart and all the toys
Sorceror

2x10 cultists

2x5 nurgle spawn

CSM CAD

Juggerlord with AoBF
Sorceror

2x10 cultists

Gorepack
4x3 bikes with 2 melta
1x17 Flesh hounds

Does well against most things

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
Too much lately I've seen people complaining that orks are the worst codex there is. While I will say they are not a powerhouse, they really aren't bad.

They are definitely above AM, BA, DE, Most nids, I'd even say SW.

People seem to be forgetting that Orks swept a lot of the tourneys this year. Sure they aren't superb, but a good player can still make a list that can murder other armies if they have the skill. I'd say Chaos Space Marines, right now it just looks like the only good CSM armies are either made up of bike spam that's essentially Codex Space Marines -1 or having two thirds of the army be made up of Daemon allies.

I'm honestly really looking forward to the next CSM 'dex. I think formations are gonna be the cure for what ails CSMs.

See I dont think its the army, It might be you, or your cover/terrain. Cause So far my orks have done fairly well. tabled 2 space marines lists, easily won a game against DA. lost to 3 knights + drop pods though. beat imperial guard and tau (tau was KP only won by 2) iv lost to tyranids and deamon prince heavy daemons. but over all I'v winning. (Although all i can say is iam greatful that no one plays eldar)

The typical list I run is: 2k of speedy orks...

warboss
warbike
klaw
da lukky stikk

mek
kustom mega blasta

pain boy
warbike
bosspole

pain boy
warbike
bosspole


12boyz
nob
bosspole
klaw
trukk with ram
12 eavy armour

12boyz
nob
bosspole
klaw
trukk with ram
12 eavy armour

12boyz
nob
bosspole
klaw
trukk with ram
12 eavy armour

12boyz
nob
bosspole
klaw
trukk with ram
12 eavy armour

12boyz
nob
bosspole
klaw
trukk with ram
12 eavy armour


12 warbikes
nob
klaw
bosspole

12 warbikes
nob
klaw
bosspole



5mek gunz
5 kustom mega kannons
5 ammo runts
10 extra grots


But Id definatly say SOB are the weakest, orks defiantly arnt top tier though.

Just to take more here:

In the latest ITC format tournament, the top 16 includes:

-Eldar+Firebase Cadre nastiness
-Gladius+Skyhammer nastiness
-Many Flyrant nastiness
-Free everything AdMech nastiness

AND

-Ork green tide
-Khorne Daemonkin
-Daemons/CSM
-Eldar+Haemonculus Covens



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So with that as a bit of data I would put sisters MT Harlequins and AM on the bottom. Everything else still got some tricks.

How do you define weak though? Inherent to the parent codex only or including supplements? Monobuilds IMO don't make a dex strong. I rate all those listed here about the same.

Nids for example are still piss poor. It took how many additional supps plus forgeworld to get a single decent tourney build? The parent dex is still gak.

Just because orks have that one build that does well in a defined meta doesn't mean the codex is strong either (again supplement). This is the problem with all of the mid to bottom tier dexes.. no life or 'brewability' and randumb charts all over the place.

Its the stupid little nuances that hurt. Besides the major kicks in the balls like mob rule theres just unnecessary things like no SAG for MA big meks or cybork being 6+ FNP or ap3 huskblades and no mount options or Ld3 units or no drop pods for CSM and lets have every character forced to challenge and so on.

Imagine if ultras had to roll to see which combat doctrine took place after they decided to enact it or tau didn't know which weapon they were firing until they chose a target, or grav weaponry said 'has no effect on dark eldar faction" or warp spiders needed to roll on some randumb SAG chart each time they used their WJGs. Lame. These types of things make units form the lower tier books unplayable and thus limit the longevity of their dexes forcing monobuilds that are inflexible and can't adapt.

tldr every book with these problems is weak IMO. They all got fukt.

I honestly don't get the entire CSM hate.
I played basically solely against CSM for the better part of two years and once he started bringing out the better stuff of the codex I couldn't win a dime anymore.

Nurgle Bikers with a Nurgle Sorcerer and Melta. Tough to deal with.
Bale Flamer Heldrakes, 2+. A nightmare to actually hurt.
Noise Marines with huge volume of shots and FNP, sitting in cover, are damn resilient.
A flying Nurgle DP that keeps plonking down a Squad of Demonettes per turn whereever he pleases.
Cheap troops in cultists.

Once you add in FW it becomes downright nasty.
Sonic Dreadnoughts that put out respectable firepower at distance, e.g.

I've yet to play a game where I don't get tabled by turn 3 due to huge volumes of S6-8 AP3 Ignore Cover firepower or 70 pts freely summoend demonettes that swipe a unit per turn in assault.
Yes, I'm bad, but CSM have their gems and if you use them right they can become downright nasty. Not tournament winning nasty, but kick every of my attempts in the groin nasty.

Orks are not the worst by a long shot. If anyone should be annoyed it's the BA players. A new codex and there already finished. It's almost laughable how bad they are when compared to SM or DA.

dominuschao wrote:
How do you define weak though? Inherent to the parent codex only or including supplements? Monobuilds IMO don't make a dex strong. I rate all those listed here about the same.

Nids for example are still piss poor. It took how many additional supps plus forgeworld to get a single decent tourney build? The parent dex is still gak.

Just because orks have that one build that does well in a defined meta doesn't mean the codex is strong either (again supplement). This is the problem with all of the mid to bottom tier dexes.. no life or 'brewability' and randumb charts all over the place.

Personally, I'd base it at least partially on the number of viable units/builds in the codex. I'd say that supplements can be included when determining power (but, if some units are only viable with a supplement, that certainly isn't a point in the book's favour), but allies can't (no codex should require allies to prop it up).

I think it's fair to say it's not an exact science.

dominuschao wrote:

Its the stupid little nuances that hurt. Besides the major kicks in the balls like mob rule theres just unnecessary things like no SAG for MA big meks or cybork being 6+ FNP or ap3 huskblades and no mount options or Ld3 units or no drop pods for CSM and lets have every character forced to challenge and so on.

Imagine if ultras had to roll to see which combat doctrine took place after they decided to enact it or tau didn't know which weapon they were firing until they chose a target, or grav weaponry said 'has no effect on dark eldar faction" or warp spiders needed to roll on some randumb SAG chart each time they used their WJGs. Lame. These types of things make units form the lower tier books unplayable and thus limit the longevity of their dexes forcing monobuilds that are inflexible and can't adapt.

tldr every book with these problems is weak IMO. They all got fukt.

Agreed.

The other aspect I'd like to bring up is the lack of flavour and variety in many of the pre-7.5 books. Which is your favourite Archon melee weapon? The S3 AP3 one, the other S3 AP3 one, the other other S3 AP3 one, or perhaps you're a rare fan of the S3 AP3 one?

It's one thing to be an underdog codex, but quite another to be a boring underdog codex.

Depends what the meta is. Super cheese yeah sure, orkz will get crumped. But if you aren't playing waac's then orks are decent, ork player won the club league by me.

Imperial Guard.

Out of our 40-50+ units only about 6 of them are actually viable choices and even then 3 of them are of dubious quality:

Company Command Squad: Good with the MOO and MOF upgrades.

Tank Commander (not Pask): A HQ choice that can actually survive, just choose your ride and escorts carefully.

Veteran Squads: Dubious as stock but improve with the purchasing of Doctrines and gear.

Vendettas: Not too bad but could be a little cheaper.

Leman Russ tanks: The Exterminator and Punisher variants are not too bad for their price but the Eradicator and Battletank should be cheaper and the Demolisher and Executioner are ludicrously overpriced. Do not even mention the Vanquisher.

Wyverns: Against Light Infantry they are good. Against anything else and they are mediocre.

Apart from those few choices everything else is laughable. Hydra's? 75 points and now lacking the ability to engage ground targets and they also lack Interceptor. Storm Troopers? They cost as much as a Marine without any of the Marines offensive or defensive abilities. Ogryns/Bullgryns? So expensive that an effective squad can take close to a quarter of your points cost in a 2000 point game. And thats for one squad of about 6 models. Basilisks? A 3 foot minimal range tends to put people off, especially at that price. I could go on but... Just read the codex for yourself.

SGTPozy wrote:
Definitely Tau

LOL I've only lost one game with Tau to all the current best lists. They're still strong

Honestly 100% orks is pretty weak if not played or organized right.

Other armies are weaker against most armies the problem is they aren't that bad against orks. Orks aren't the worst against everyone they just arent good against anyone at all


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem with orks isn't that they are the worst. It's that they haven't actually been good since I started playing. That's a long time of suck.

I still have like 200 ork models kicking around that I never take out

jakejackjake wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Definitely Tau

LOL I've only lost one game with Tau to all the current best lists. They're still strong

Honestly 100% orks is pretty weak if not played or organized right.

Other armies are weaker against most armies the problem is they aren't that bad against orks. Orks aren't the worst against everyone they just arent good against anyone at all


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem with orks isn't that they are the worst. It's that they haven't actually been good since I started playing. That's a long time of suck.

I still have like 200 ork models kicking around that I never take out

They tend to kick around the usual tourney decurion necron lists, which almost no one else does. And since that's a popular tourney list right now, that ain't nothing. (Seriously, out of my last 10 tourney games, 4 have been against decurions. It gets super old quick.)

I was so annoyed with the latest Ork codex. They used to be one of my favourite armies to play and now I barely take them to the table.
The biggest issues for me were the change to mob rule and the stacked HQ choices (too many as I want to take most of them!).

I guess it depends on how we look at armies. Are talking them solo or as allies? Some make great allies but terrible stand alone. CSM solo is meh, but with demons it starts to look better. Even IG can add an ally to an army and be "good" then.

 Hawkeye888 wrote:
I guess it depends on how we look at armies. Are talking them solo or as allies? Some make great allies but terrible stand alone. CSM solo is meh, but with demons it starts to look better. Even IG can add an ally to an army and be "good" then.

I typically avoid looking at allies when it comes to this. Some armies can't make good use of them, others can combine 5 armies and take a powerhouse list just because.