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 vipoid wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'd be ok with ditching allies altogether.

That said, I'm also ok with keeping them but enforcing much more restrictions to remove some of the more ridiculous shennanigans. Essentially bumping everything "up" a level. Battle Brothers operate as Allies of Convenience do now. Allies of Convenience oeprate as Desperate Allies, Desperate Allies operate as CtA, CtA=Only in Apocalypse games, not possible in normal games. I think, in most cases, that would also make more sense fluffwise.

This.

Agree, this ^. Personally I would also like to see Allies gone but I would accept vipoid's solution as a means to allow those that like allies to keep them but toning down the abuses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:
A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.

Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).

But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.

This ^

Part of the reason I personally would get rid of allies. You can do whatever you want among friends anyways but having allies in the rules leads to what is said above. Over time the uniqueness of armies is eroded. Also, rather than the company make each army work in dealing with other armies/units in differing degrees and in different ways, as each army should have strengths and weaknesses, it is easier to just take all the strong straightforward stuff from a combination of dexes. Then regular armies become useless because their weaknesses (along with GW making some dexes have lots of subpar units) become magnified.

Alcibiades wrote:
A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.

Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).

But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.

And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.

Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.

But... Skitarii and CultMech. They really should be one dex. I think it should be by race. Imperium can ally with imperium, chaos with chaos, ect

 Kanluwen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.

Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).

But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.

And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.

Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.

Transports, or any feature of one army that cancels the weaknesses of the other.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.

Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).

But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.

And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.

Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.

Transports, or any feature of one army that cancels the weaknesses of the other.

Such as?

Like I already said, the main issue is WWP and Drop Pods. Somebody already pointed out the fix for that and it's really quite simple.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.

Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).

But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.

And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.

Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.

Transports, or any feature of one army that cancels the weaknesses of the other.

Such as?

Such as an IC with a bubble aura or psychic powers.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.

Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).

But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.

And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.

Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.

Transports, or any feature of one army that cancels the weaknesses of the other.

Such as?

suppose if an army was balanced around not having psykers and could take psker BBs it could potentially be an issue but I've never heard of it specificly being an issue in 7th edition.

BrianDavion wrote:
really so the IoM never cooperates together at all? IG battle psykers never work to support a Astartes chapter. and if a IG Chimera saw a squad of Marines in need of transport on the battlefield they'd just leave em there?

That is not to say they don't cooperate, they definitely do, but not to the extent of joining each others units, this simply doesn't occur. I mean we are talking about an army that uses commissaries to keep its troops in line. IG are just simple drafties and the large majority are afraid/revere SM and the majority SM consider IG meat for the grinder except for a few known IG commanders. Cult mech literally give 0 feths about the others unless it literally directly affects them (I mean their literal buildings, stuff, etc) or benefits them in some way. The factions have no desire to actively hurt each other, but also no desire to actively help each other without some sort of benefit. It almost exactly like the medieval ages, where each faction belongs to a different house, but all the houses are subservient to the king. Houses look out for themselves and orders aren't clear (it can take months to get a message from one planet to another in the 40K world) so it further exasperates factions not exactly working together.

So regarding an IG psyker supporting marines, I think you are thinking of casting buffs etc like on the tabletop, these types of buffs are extremely rare/basically non-existent, extremely limited as compared to the table top game, or have an extreme price (like the death of the psyker). Even if the marines knew they could gain some buff I doubt they would use it as the majority of the IoM don't really trust psykers as psykers in general imply the taint of chaos, let alone a non-marine psyker as they don't have the gene seed of the emperor to steel their minds. Also it would be extremely hard for a psyker to keep up with marines.

As for the IG Chimera, assuming SM could even be transported by an IG chimera I doubt they would stop to pick them up, they would probably just see them and be scared or awed. The only way they would probably stop is if the marines forced them and then the marines would likely take over the Chimera, kick the IG out, and the IG would now be on foot for the good of the imperium.

I voted for "Abolish the Allies Matrix-system".

My gaming group plays our games from a fluff POV.

In my opinion, Allies are only smart from a Sales perspective and for competitive minds.

I don't like playing a 1 vs 1 game but seeing units from 5+ codexes..

Alcibiades wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.

Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).

But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.

And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.

Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.

Transports, or any feature of one army that cancels the weaknesses of the other.

Such as?

Such as an IC with a bubble aura or psychic powers.

"The Bubble Aura affects unit with X Faction" and "Psyker Dave can only cast Y Psychic Powers on X Faction".

Fiiiiiiiiiixed!

BrianDavion wrote:
suppose if an army was balanced around not having psykers and could take psker BBs it could potentially be an issue but I've never heard of it specificly being an issue in 7th edition.

Ever heard of centurion-star? Grey knight allies and their guaranteed gate of infinity make that possible. I think that ICs (also because of the archon and his WWP) are almost as much of an issue as dedicated transports, so knocking them down a peg as others have suggested fixes both issues in a clean, single stroke.

 greyknight12 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
suppose if an army was balanced around not having psykers and could take psker BBs it could potentially be an issue but I've never heard of it specificly being an issue in 7th edition.

Ever heard of centurion-star? Grey knight allies and their guaranteed gate of infinity make that possible. I think that ICs (also because of the archon and his WWP) are almost as much of an issue as dedicated transports, so knocking them down a peg as others have suggested fixes both issues in a clean, single stroke.

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic...

Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:

Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.

Orrrr...

Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.

Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).

But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.

And if it can ally with someone who can't field transports as Fast Attack choices in an army with the ability to take quite a few Fast Attack slots(Flesh Tearers formation from Leviathan, for example) then it doesn't matter.

Seriously, this isn't hard. The issue isn't allies, the issue is the ability to take transports which otherwise are Dedicated Transports purchased for a single unit from an army book as Fast Attack choices.

Transports, or any feature of one army that cancels the weaknesses of the other.

Such as?

suppose if an army was balanced around not having psykers and could take psker BBs it could potentially be an issue but I've never heard of it specificly being an issue in 7th edition.

I fully agree that the issue as things stand is transports. I'm just saying that, in essence, the issue is circumventing an army's weaknessses.

nudibranch wrote:
Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:

Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.

Orrrr...

Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.

So Space Wolves don't get Drop Pods?

In any case, that's more work than not putting them in the bloody Fast Attack slots to begin with.
Seriously. Just don't put them in FA and there's no real issue with them.

And 2D6 Wounds with no saves allowed is a far from meaningful solution--especially when one can make the argument that Skitarii(the biggest problem unit with Drop Pod allied shenanigans) should be put into that category of being immune to Terminal Velocity since it's the impact which is said to be fatal essentially rendering unaugmented humans DOA since it exerts extreme pressure upon their internal organs. Skitarii are more machine than man, which is supposed to be why they get a FNP save.

Just to be further clear, the problem isn't just that Skitarii are riding in Drop Pods--it's that a formation exists(Flesh Tearers in Leviathan) which is easy to meet the requirements and grants an absurd number of Fast Attack slots, of which Drop Pods are a Fast Attack slot.
You don't hear people complaining about Razorbacks or Rhinos for Skitarii, it's literally just the issue of Drop Pods being such a reliable delivery system for cheap Vanguard units with Arc Rifles and an Arc Pistol on the Vanguard Alpha and Drop Pods being available as a Fast Attack choice.

Remove Drop Pods and other Dedicated Transports from Fast Attack choices and watch a disproportionate amount of whining vanish almost overnight.

Currently building up Dark Angels, but have also got thoughts of building up some other Imperial forces (Grey Knights and Imperial Guard mostly), partially as Allies and partially as their own armies.
I like the idea of fielding them as Battle Brothers and I'd be damn pissed if that was taken away!
As some have mentioned it's mostly FA Transports causing the problems here (even then, only particular ones. Nobody's complaining about Guardsmen piling into a Rhino or a Stormlord full of Terminators, for example) so just focus on that.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Allies is a new thing that wasn't there when I played.

Actually Allies have been around since Day 1.
They got rid of them until Witch Hunters and th Inquisition first showed up.

I will keep it simple. I like Allies, it lets me do few things
Play with the Models/Units I like and if you have the right Group the 'Rule Of Cool" makes some combinations fun.
Grey Hunters in Valkyries. It was the only real way to get Air Mobile Space Wolves till the last Codex.
It also lets you go old school and let Guard take Land Raiders, Rhinos and Land Speeders.

nudibranch wrote:
Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:

Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.

Orrrr...

Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.

Ha! I like this post.

But for real, fit the fluff. Only Space Marines are designed to survive entry via Drop pods.

 krodarklorr wrote:
But for real, fit the fluff. Only Space Marines are designed to survive entry via Drop pods.

That's fair, but you don't need to kill the whole concept of Allies to do it. Nor should you.

 krodarklorr wrote:


But for real, fit the fluff. Only Space Marines are designed to survive entry via Drop pods.

And Sisters...

 krodarklorr wrote:

nudibranch wrote:
Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:

Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.

Orrrr...

Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.

Ha! I like this post.

But for real, fit the fluff. Only Space Marines are designed to survive entry via Drop pods.

Except fluffwise, there are also specially modified pods and equipment allowing for non-Marines to ride down in pods.

So, again, remove them from Fast Attack and be done with it.

Eldar and Imperium Battle Brothers.
Eldar and Dark Eldar Desperate Allies.
Tau and Imperium Allies of Convenience.
Dark Eldar and Chaos Allies of Convenience.
Remove ability to use each other's transport. It makes no sense to have Guardsmen inside a Drop Pod. They will get pulverized on impact.

Those are all the things I have to say about this one.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Allies is a new thing that wasn't there when I played.

Actually Allies have been around since Day 1.
They got rid of them until Witch Hunters and th Inquisition first showed up.

I played 3rd-5th and don't remember anything remotely resembling the current allies system. So maybe the old is new again. Anyway the point was to give context for my perspective. When I played, allies as currently implemented was not a thing.

"Allies are cheese"

-Derpcurion players 2015

Just hate the fact that armies other than the three that have access to slowed uberformations have a way to compete, dontcha.

Voted to keep BB, playing fluffy traitor guard (IA 13) with CSM should be possible. Without BB we would still be left with codex power levels.

Well since the OP thinks my Cult/Skitarii dont deserve to be allies.

To hell with the OP I say.

OP plays crons anyways, his opinion is invalid

Allies are fine.

One unit from this codex giving abilities to a different unit from a different codex that were never intended to have said ability is definitely not. And IMO, is the main problem with the entire game right now.

nudibranch wrote:
Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:

Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.

Orrrr...

Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.

The Sisters of Battle have previously had access to Drop Pods with the Dominica-pattern 'Pod.

However, I would go with your option if it also inflicted a Strength D hit in a Large Blast radius wherever the pod landed. Those things are going really, really fast, after all. They should just pulp anything around them when they land.

 Psienesis wrote:

nudibranch wrote:
Here's an idea. Slap this special rule onto all drop pods:

Terminal Velocity:
Drop Pods may only be used by models from the following codices: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights.

Orrrr...

Terminal Velocity:
On arrival, any unit that does not belong to Codex: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Grey Knights instantly takes 2D6 wounds with no saves allowed.

The Sisters of Battle have previously had access to Drop Pods with the Dominica-pattern 'Pod.

However, I would go with your option if it also inflicted a Strength D hit in a Large Blast radius wherever the pod landed. Those things are going really, really fast, after all. They should just pulp anything around them when they land.

And how much should they pay for that ability? Likewise, Newton's laws and all, they should take a D hit back