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Hey guys, with all the new grav stuff In the new sm codex, what do you think is better to run in mobile tactical squads that are moving a lot and probably won't have a heavy weapon. I want them to be able to deal with heavier units like wraiths and MC's but still want synergy with the bolters. What do you guys think grav or plasma?

That grav should stay on cents, bikes and skyhammer devs.
Plasma for everyone else, especially with all the re-rolls from demi-company, gadius etc

I'd said the grav, for the only reason it will never blow your own fancy little Astartes up. I'm talking as a guy cursed by Gets Hot!

Definitely plasma. The range matches the Bolters the other marines have and you have little chance of actually blowing yourself up (less than 3%).

 RazgrizOne wrote:
I'd said the grav, for the only reason it will never blow your own fancy little Astartes up. I'm talking as a guy cursed by Gets Hot!

Get's Hot is not as bed as everyone make it out to be. I run a 2k Plasma SPAM list with 30-35 plasma weapons in it and I may loose 2-3 models a game.

Yeah, I love hearing "I don't have ANY plasma! I don't want my own guys to kill themselves!" Of course, this was much better for my Termies before the advent of grav-every-fething-thing.

As for Grav over Plasma it think it come down to me: What is the unit going to be doing.
Sitting in a Gunline waiting for the enemy: Grav or Flamers. Both are good choices to deter Assaults.
Being Mobile: The Plasma, because it you are moving you have to get inside Bolt Pistol Range to be able to shoot the Grav.
Drop Pod: Depends on what you are going after, Riptides, the Grave, MEQ/TEQ/Guard/Orks the Plasma.
Right now I have one Combi-Grav in my list and it is in the hands of a Bolter Scout Sargent, just for Anti-Assault. It works well when I let my opponent who has it and they just avoid him.

plasma has the same AP, better range and a better chance to wound soft targets, but has fewer shots, might blow up in your face and is arguably not as useful against vehicles (probably better against MC, though).

personally, since I have plenty of bolters on the table to deal with soft targets, I will probably trade out plasma for grav while keeping my existing mix of melta and flamers.

I think it comes down to how much you can afford to lose your special weapons to bad luck. my chaos marines run 2 plasmas in each unit and I routinely blow up at least one model a game due to Gets Hot!. that is anecdotal and not in line with the 3% chance, but there ya go.

I think the reason why there's so much stigma surrounding plasma guns is people forgetting that MEQ gets two saves against them.

two saves?

The plasma weapon that I know is the Ork version. Kustom Mega Slugga/Blasta/Kannon each having Str8 AP2 and also Get's Hot. I tend to find these to be worthy weapons for both vehicles and soft targets. It can hit up AV14 and pops penned targets on a 5-6. It ID's anything T4 and lower and blows through any infantry armour. Meanwhile I'm pretty sure those Grav guns find many unarmoured or low armoured units to be unviable targets. I suppose it helps that the only place we Orks will have the Get's Hot weapons will be on models with at least 2 Wounds but I would assume the plasma for Imperium is just as handy to have. I don't have Imperium books though so I don't know how well these weapons are in the hands of Man.

 varl wrote:
two saves?

Gets Hot roll and your Armor/Invul save.

unless I've been playing it wrong all this time, you only do a separate gets hot roll for blast weapons (e.g., plasma cannons). for plasmaguns and pistols, you take a gets hot wound for any to-hit roll of 1. I wouldn't really call that two saves, although I get the spirit of what you meant.

 varl wrote:
unless I've been playing it wrong all this time, you only do a separate gets hot roll for blast weapons (e.g., plasma cannons). for plasmaguns and pistols, you take a gets hot wound for any to-hit roll of 1. I wouldn't really call that two saves, although I get the spirit of what you meant.

You still get an armor or invul save against gets hot, hence why I said Plasma Guns have some bad stigma because of people not realizing this.

 varl wrote:
plasma has the same AP, better range and a better chance to wound soft targets, but has fewer shots, might blow up in your face and is arguably not as useful against vehicles (probably better against MC, though).

I have found that a Combi-Plasma and a Plasma Gun can do a lot of damage to most rear armor out there at double the range. It is not hard to get a pair of Plasma Guns within 12" of your target out of a Drop Pod. I have been looking at taking a Pair of Plasma Guns (and a Plasma Pistol) with some Raptors with the MoS for the FNP vs the Gets hot.

personally, since I have plenty of bolters on the table to deal with soft targets, I will probably trade out plasma for grav while keeping my existing mix of melta and flamers.

Could work real well, but you still have to get close to use those three weapons.

I think it comes down to how much you can afford to lose your special weapons to bad luck. my chaos marines run 2 plasmas in each unit and I routinely blow up at least one model a game due to Gets Hot!. that is anecdotal and not in line with the 3% chance, but there ya go.

I do the same with my Grey Hunters, but unless it happens in the first shot you can usually kill of a good about of models first.
That is what a lot of people don't see with Plasma (or 'Gets Hot'), How much damage was done before the 7 degree sunburn sets in.

Grav, because range isn't an issue when you've got drop pods and wounding wraithknights on 3's with no armour save is rad.

Bonus effects against FMC's or vehicles are icing.

 Drasius wrote:
Grav, because range isn't an issue when you've got drop pods and wounding wraithknights on 3's with no armour save is rad.

Bonus effects against FMC's or vehicles are icing.

I will give you that it is hard to beat Grav Weapons vs MCs

The issue I see with the Grave though is you still have to get within 9" coming out of the pod/rhino/Outflank to get your 2 shots.
Plasma you only need to get within 12" and if you end up 13"-24" you can still shoot.
As cheesy as it seems I think Grav [and all Salvo Weapons] do best on Relentless Platforms like Bikes or as part of a Gunline.

" It is not hard to get a pair of Plasma Guns within 12" of your target out of a Drop Pod. "

Sometimes it is.

Martel732 wrote:
" It is not hard to get a pair of Plasma Guns within 12" of your target out of a Drop Pod. "

Sometimes it is.

I usually don't have a problem, but sometimes I can have an issue.

The trick is to set the Pod as close as you can to the target.
On average you should only end up about 7" from your chosen landing point and at max 12".
You disembark your 6".
Now unless your target has a 13" deep Bubble-Wrap all around him you should be between 3"-9" away, as has been my experience. That is even close enough for Grav Weapons.

I live and die by my plasma spam, RNG is RNG I suppose.

 urbanevil wrote:
I live and die by my plasma spam, RNG is RNG I suppose.

True I live by that too.

Now I tend to take full 10 Model Squads so I was thinking.
Sarge: Combi-Plasma [12"/24" Range]
7x Marines: Bolt Guns
1x Marine: Plasma Gun [12"/24" Range]
1x Marine: Gav Cannon [12"/24" Range]

You get an armour save against "Gets Hot" ?

I've been playing it as AP2 (because plasma) so marines don't get an armour save due to power armour being 3+.

Have I been playing this wrong?

 Reavsie wrote:
You get an armour save against "Gets Hot" ?

I've been playing it as AP2 (because plasma) so marines don't get an armour save due to power armour being 3+.

Have I been playing this wrong?

Yes. You get FNP as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" It is not hard to get a pair of Plasma Guns within 12" of your target out of a Drop Pod. "

Sometimes it is.

I usually don't have a problem, but sometimes I can have an issue.

The trick is to set the Pod as close as you can to the target.
On average you should only end up about 7" from your chosen landing point and at max 12".
You disembark your 6".
Now unless your target has a 13" deep Bubble-Wrap all around him you should be between 3"-9" away, as has been my experience. That is even close enough for Grav Weapons.

It's not quite that easy. The bubblewrap doesn't need to be that deep to force you to land more than 12" away. Also, drop pod traps can really be bad for this particular tactic.

I have transitioned away from a lot of pods and a lot of plasma. My primary two weapon types are melta and grav at this point. There are very few targets that I would target with plasma where grav bikers don't do better. I don't use grav on non-relentless units. They mostly get flamers/melta.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
Grav, because range isn't an issue when you've got drop pods and wounding wraithknights on 3's with no armour save is rad.

Bonus effects against FMC's or vehicles are icing.

I will give you that it is hard to beat Grav Weapons vs MCs

The issue I see with the Grave though is you still have to get within 9" coming out of the pod/rhino/Outflank to get your 2 shots.
Plasma you only need to get within 12" and if you end up 13"-24" you can still shoot.
As cheesy as it seems I think Grav [and all Salvo Weapons] do best on Relentless Platforms like Bikes or as part of a Gunline.

My issues with Grav Guns is that their damage is variable. As only a complete donkey-cave tailors his list after the agreement of what to bring, you can easily end up in a situation where your grav gun will do little to nothing thanks either to a lot of light infantry, or the enemy is fielding something so big it isn't even bothered much by grav compared to melta. Plasma and Melta spam is just far more consistent and reliable than grav gun spam.

"you can easily end up in a situation where your grav gun will do little to nothing thanks either to a lot of light infantry"

I put grav on bikers, who also have TL boltguns. Something there should stick. Grav guns on infantry are pretty meh.

Yes you get to have armour saves if it Gets Hot in your model's hands. In the BRB the rule specifically states that if you roll the 1 your model immediately suffers a wound but also gets to use their armour/invuln saves. Essentially a statless wound that bypasses the to hit (or maybe the 1 can be considered the to hit) and no str test vs toughness just straight to the saves.

Martel732 wrote:
"you can easily end up in a situation where your grav gun will do little to nothing thanks either to a lot of light infantry"

I put grav on bikers, who also have TL boltguns. Something there should stick. Grav guns on infantry are pretty meh.

Yeah, but you lose the consistent reliability of plasma (or melta). IMO, slap plasma on most of the army, then hand meltaguns to the guys deploying by drop pod.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"you can easily end up in a situation where your grav gun will do little to nothing thanks either to a lot of light infantry"

I put grav on bikers, who also have TL boltguns. Something there should stick. Grav guns on infantry are pretty meh.

Yeah, but you lose the consistent reliability of plasma (or melta). IMO, slap plasma on most of the army, then hand meltaguns to the guys deploying by drop pod.

No, not really. Look at list of problem units in the game. Against most of them, grav is the best choice.

Drop pod melta guns are far from a sure thing while we are on the topic of consistency. Realize that three BS 4 meltaguns have about a 50/50 of popping a Rhino. Let that sink in a minute.

Martel732 & ProwlerPC - thanks guys, thats very helpful.
My guys might last a bit longer now!

I take grav over plasma because there is literally only one unit type that plasma is strictly better than grav against: high T poor save units, like a T6 4+sv unit, or greater daemons.

Against anything else, plasma is either inferior or marginally better but still not cost-effective. Like ork boyz for instance. Sure, grav will be doing nothing to a boy, but a rapid-firing plasma gun is only killing a single boy as well. Killing low toughness, poor save units is what your bolters are for. For 90% of everything else, use grav.