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 Ghazkuul wrote:
lol im not trying to get all "Patriotic" im just wondering if it was a true study or if it was one of those famously flawed ones. you know "Eggs are unhealthy never eat them ....because reasons" and then 2 years later "eggs are amazing eat them every day...because reasons.'

Ahh, phew! I always get scared in OT that I might be inadvertently getting into a three page argument amount something silly

To the best of my knowledge, Leeming acknowledged some problems with sample size, which sounds like the main weakness (unfortunately, I can't find the actual study to reference). And right side dominance wasn't proven to be the cause of the disparity, so it is just speculation. But it makes sense to me that since humans are not perfectly symmetrical, driving on the left or right can't be perfectly equivalent. The difference is probably fairly negligible though.

After a two day hiatus for calling a spade a spade:

The suicide/murder is under investigation and doesn't particularly matter to my main point, which is that the woman was in jail for 3 days for the crime of having attitude (or, possibly, the crime of having attitude while black) and I am disgusted by certain posters bending over backwards to defend the officer's abuse of power. Even if every part of his conduct was technically legal (which is very doubtful) the simple fact remains that he escalated the situation solely because she was giving him lip. Nothing she did ever suggested that she wouldn't cooperate with the lawful punishment for her actual traffic violation, which is usually a ticket, not being dragged out of the car, beaten and arrested.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
After a two day hiatus for calling a spade a spade:

The suicide/murder is under investigation and doesn't particularly matter to my main point, which is that the woman was in jail for 3 days for the crime of having attitude (or, possibly, the crime of having attitude while black) and I am disgusted by certain posters bending over backwards to defend the officer's abuse of power. Even if every part of his conduct was technically legal (which is very doubtful) the simple fact remains that he escalated the situation solely because she was giving him lip. Nothing she did ever suggested that she wouldn't cooperate with the lawful punishment for her actual traffic violation, which is usually a ticket, not being dragged out of the car, beaten and arrested.

His conduct was out-of-line which has not been doubted by a single person in this thread - please read the actual threads before commenting on them instead of commenting on an idealized version of the thread you have in your mind. He is already getting persecuted for his behavior. No problem here.

Both parties are responsible for the arrest. The police offer let her get under his skin and Bland herself purposefully provoked the police officer and resisted arrest. At the very moment you resist arrest, you're putting yourself in trouble. Always follow a police officer's orders and later on, take legal action. It's that simple. He asked her to get out of the car, she refused. A lot. He repeatedly told her that he'd be using physical force to get her out. She resisted. A lot. Good plan, lady.

Playing the race card on this is just stupid and nothing but irrational hatred for the police.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
After a two day hiatus for calling a spade a spade:

The suicide/murder is under investigation and doesn't particularly matter to my main point, which is that the woman was in jail for 3 days for the crime of having attitude (or, possibly, the crime of having attitude while black) and I am disgusted by certain posters bending over backwards to defend the officer's abuse of power. Even if every part of his conduct was technically legal (which is very doubtful) the simple fact remains that he escalated the situation solely because she was giving him lip. Nothing she did ever suggested that she wouldn't cooperate with the lawful punishment for her actual traffic violation, which is usually a ticket, not being dragged out of the car, beaten and arrested.

Exactly !!!

Here is a pretty good analysis of how the arresting officer lied to his supervisor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49_wNH9OiYA

There are some great police officers out there, and I personally know a few. But this country needs to do some real serious soul searching on how we police ourselves. And it's not only black people that are targeted by these guys (bad cops). But black people, take the brunt of it.

With the movement that is growing, I'm hoping that local LE continues to make positive progress...although it's going much too slow for my taste.

GG

 generalgrog wrote:
There are some great police officers out there, and I personally know a few. But this country needs to do some real serious soul searching on how we police ourselves. And it's not only black people that are targeted by these guys (bad cops). But black people, take the brunt of it.

With the movement that is growing, I'm hoping that local LE continues to make positive progress...although it's going much too slow for my taste.

The irony, however, is that because of incidents like this and the media attention it gets, that progress will actually take even longer. The talent pool for potential police officers is shrinking. Not only because the private sector pays more, but for also the reason I mentioned earlier: make one mistake on camera that makes it to the media, and your career is over. Who wants to take that risk? We're almost getting to the point now where if a police officer just shouts at someone they'll get put on administrative leave while the incident is reviewed. We have hour long 5mph police chases because forcing the person over "might hurt them." We glorify our soldiers because of their ability to kill the bad guys, but we vilify our police officers just for giving us a speeding ticket.

Yes, there are bad cops out there, but there are far more good cops than bad, but it's the good cops who are ultimately paying the price for what the bad cops are doing.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
We have hour long 5mph police chases because forcing the person over "might hurt them."

Actually, nobody really cares about the person being chased. The problem is when chases, and interventions for chases, hurt everyone else on the road.

So you have stricter guidelines on initiating chases, and when to terminate them, to protect the public instead of the guy driving away from the cops. Especially if you already have the information on who is driving, and you have one of those fancy "flying in the sky with a camera" things following it and know where the car is going anyway.

But hey, facts, who needs them.

Talking about facts, got any articles on cops being put on leave for yelling at people? Any of these numerous articles on cops being fired for making one mistake on camera since that is common problem that is keeping people from joining the police force?

Hmm, you know I can't remember the last time I heard about an innocent bystander getting hurt in a chase.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hmm, you know I can't remember the last time I heard about an innocent bystander getting hurt in a chase.

That is because the Police generally go out of their way to keep civilians safe in such a situation. Just because some officers are donkey-caves doesn't mean they all are. Of course the inverse is also true.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hmm, you know I can't remember the last time I heard about an innocent bystander getting hurt in a chase.

It might be you've never heard of it because most police departments now have policies prohibiting them, because innocent bystanders kept getting hurt and it's overall poor policy.

 d-usa wrote:

Talking about facts, got any articles on cops being put on leave for yelling at people?

Talking about facts, let's see what I actually said. Oh, right, I said "almost getting to the point ".

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
We have hour long 5mph police chases because forcing the person over "might hurt them." We glorify our soldiers because of their ability to kill the bad guys, but we vilify our police officers just for giving us a speeding ticket.

This feels like a needless simplification. I don't think we, generally, glorify soldiers for their ability to kill "bad guys", but for their willingness to accept mediocre pay and abysmal working conditions in service of (the perception of) keeping our country safe. I can't speak for everyone who ever got a speeding ticket, but I feel like I've earned every single one I've ever gotten and I don't vilify the cops for giving them to me. I think in reality we vilify the police who act unprofessionally, and who needlessly escalate situations, and who in extreme cases take the lives of our citizens needlessly, under cover of law, without any consequence.

There has been a lot more coverage of this, and I think that's a good thing, because we deserve better policing in our cities. I would think every honest cop would welcome any spotlight on the bad apples that are making the rest of them look bad by comparison.

A simplification? Yes, but I wouldn't say needless. But, I'm just going to stop at this point, as I doubt any further discussion will be productive.

I was going to say about the current situation like what's happening in NYC, Baltimore, and I think Furgeson(?), to name a few, of LEO's just "meeting the standards" and not exceeding standards. Why would they risk their career where everyone has a media device in their hands. Officer Wilson was cleared and he still lost it all to the media and public perception

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hmm, you know I can't remember the last time I heard about an innocent bystander getting hurt in a chase.

You are either living under a rock or ignoring the news. It's not like there wasn't a case just a few months ago where a van got hit by the driver during a chase and they held down the guy until the police caught up. It was covered by our local news, most internet outlets, and the usual social media sites who thought it was funny that he was held down by a pissed off woman.

 d-usa wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hmm, you know I can't remember the last time I heard about an innocent bystander getting hurt in a chase.

You are either living under a rock or ignoring the news. It's not like there wasn't a case just a few months ago where a van got hit by the driver during a chase and they held down the guy until the police caught up. It was covered by our local news, most internet outlets, and the usual social media sites who thought it was funny that he was held down by a pissed off woman.

Hardly either, but it doesn't sound like something that would make national news. Not like I trawl every local area in the country looking for stuff.

I guess it isn't unusual for you to not hear about (x) then?

So people don't get hurt in chases because other people haven't heard about it happening, but they also can't be expected to be aware of all the news stories anywhere.

Hey, did I say anything of that sort? Putting words in my mouth much?

Just said I hadn't heard of any.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hey, did I say anything of that sort? Putting words in my mouth much?

No.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hmm, you know I can't remember the last time I heard about an innocent bystander getting hurt in a chase.

I am not.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Hardly either, but it doesn't sound like something that would make national news. Not like I trawl every local area in the country looking for stuff.

I think you need to reread what I posted.

I simply said I hadn't heard of any. And then acknowledged I simply might not have been looking in the right places. I admitted my potential ignorance. I never asserted they don't occur.

 generalgrog wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
After a two day hiatus for calling a spade a spade:

The suicide/murder is under investigation and doesn't particularly matter to my main point, which is that the woman was in jail for 3 days for the crime of having attitude (or, possibly, the crime of having attitude while black) and I am disgusted by certain posters bending over backwards to defend the officer's abuse of power. Even if every part of his conduct was technically legal (which is very doubtful) the simple fact remains that he escalated the situation solely because she was giving him lip. Nothing she did ever suggested that she wouldn't cooperate with the lawful punishment for her actual traffic violation, which is usually a ticket, not being dragged out of the car, beaten and arrested.

Exactly !!!

Here is a pretty good analysis of how the arresting officer lied to his supervisor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49_wNH9OiYA

There are some great police officers out there, and I personally know a few. But this country needs to do some real serious soul searching on how we police ourselves. And it's not only black people that are targeted by these guys (bad cops). But black people, take the brunt of it.

With the movement that is growing, I'm hoping that local LE continues to make positive progress...although it's going much too slow for my taste.

GG

You really want reform, you need to do some addressing of overall policy, much of which is influenced by police unions. Gotta reform the unions before you can reform the policy. Makes for a interesting proposition considering the people clamoring for change are the ones that are typically pro Union.

I'm intrigued to see how that dynamic will play out.

I was listening to the radio yesterday and they we're talking to a forensics person about the autopsy report. It supports the suicide, she even had month old self inflicted wound, but the problem was that the police violated their own procedures when the previous suicide attempt uwas noted by her.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I was listening to the radio yesterday and they we're talking to a forensics person about the autopsy report. It supports the suicide, she even had month old self inflicted wound, but the problem was that the police violated their own procedures when the previous suicide attempt uwas noted by her.

But weren't there (for whatever reason) multiple copies of various forms, not all of which had all of the correct data on, including previous suicide attempts/depression?

 -Shrike- wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I was listening to the radio yesterday and they we're talking to a forensics person about the autopsy report. It supports the suicide, she even had month old self inflicted wound, but the problem was that the police violated their own procedures when the previous suicide attempt uwas noted by her.

But weren't there (for whatever reason) multiple copies of various forms, not all of which had all of the correct data on, including previous suicide attempts/depression?

She changed her answers on similar questions on a few forms

Why didn't those evil bastards protect her from her changed answers!!!!!!

That's like a privacy and a "embarrassment" thing. Something you do not want the world that's outside your source of comfort zone to know.

It was a wrongful arrest.

She died, regardless of whether she was murdered or not, as a consequence of being arrested.

MB

BeAfraid wrote:
It was a wrongful arrest.

She died, regardless of whether she was murdered or not, as a consequence of being arrested.

MB

Ummmm, no.

Not how that works. If someone commits suicide because they got fired their boss isn't arrested for murder.

We may have a wrongful arrest, but that is separate from her apparent suicide.

 Frazzled wrote:

He should have simply said-"fine, forget the warning, welcome to planet ticket Yankee, have a nice day." If she had no warrants, add it to your quota and move on.

This. That cop has got to be wondering if that lady wouldn't have committed suicide if he didn't escalate, regardless if you think he did anything "wrong" or not.

It's a very sad story.

 Grey Templar wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:
It was a wrongful arrest.

She died, regardless of whether she was murdered or not, as a consequence of being arrested.

MB

Ummmm, no.

Not how that works. If someone commits suicide because they got fired their boss isn't arrested for murder.

We may have a wrongful arrest, but that is separate from her apparent suicide.

The arrest seems to be causal in relation to her death.

It very much looks like: No Arrest:No Death

MB