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I think "OgreChubbs reviews..." would be a popular comedy Youtube channel.

 Breotan wrote:
Lucas has some very selective memories of John Wayne's movies.

I used to think this stuff was all a bunch of BS that he put on for fans, but these days I think Lucas has actually confused or deluded himself about the clarity of his vision for the series.

I mean, that statement implies that he knew from the beginning that Han and Leia would get together, which seems ridiculous based on early drafts and what was actually filmed in ANH. And if this was so clear, then why did he shoot it the other way in the first place? The man makes no sense and it's such a good thing that they won't let him near it anymore.

The guy has a galactic sized ego.

Lucas has fallen prey to his own ego and selective memory. And he could get away with it for a while because he owned Star Wars.

Star Wars was actually originally written with the classic fantasy formulaic script. In which the hero ends up with the princess. Luke is the hero, not Han. The romance flip was clearly done as the movies were filmed and not preplanned.

Which actually improved the films I think.

I think it did. At the least it gave it a little more depth.

"Oh ho, you thought Luke would get the Princess didn't you! But no, she's actually his sister! please ignore the tongue action they had together on Hoth. So she marries the lovable scoundrel instead! "

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think it did. At the least it gave it a little more depth.

"Oh ho, you thought Luke would get the Princess didn't you! But no, she's actually his sister! please ignore the tongue action they had together on Hoth. So she marries the lovable scoundrel instead! "

I always interpreted that (at least in hindsight) as Leia trying to get back at Han, not the result of romantic feelings for Luke. Han and Leia had a love-hate relationship at first. Han was right, she was riled, and kissing Luke was her way of getting him riled and jealous.

I think it was a little bit of both. She clearly had some feelings for Luke.

That Hoth kiss was a bit of a curious choice, considering that it seems clear enough that they'd already decided to merge Leia with the sister character in Lucas' original framework.

Maybe Kasdan thought it'd help them gradually power down Luke & Leia as an item? All the novels and comic books between ANH and TESB embraced the idea of Luke and Leia getting romantically involved. I mean, everyone just assumed that'd be the case. So maybe it would have seemed too abrupt if things were all "just friends" right from the get-go in TESB?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The guy has a galactic sized ego.

Well, if I created one of the most valuable film franchises of all time I'd think pretty highly of myself, too.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The guy has a galactic sized ego.

Well, if I created one of the most valuable film franchises of all time I'd think pretty highly of myself, too.

True, but Lucas really was just the idea guy. Everyone else made it work.

The prequels are what happens when you don't have someone actually proofreading the idea guy's stuff.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The guy has a galactic sized ego.

Well, if I created one of the most valuable film franchises of all time I'd think pretty highly of myself, too.

True, but Lucas really was just the idea guy. Everyone else made it work.

The prequels are what happens when you don't have someone actually proofreading the idea guy's stuff.

Nothing would have ever happened without his ideas though. Lucas created Star Wars. Sometimes people are overly mean to him, I think. He has a lot of good ideas, but people only seem to give attention to his bad ideas.

 gorgon wrote:
That Hoth kiss was a bit of a curious choice, considering that it seems clear enough that they'd already decided to merge Leia with the sister character in Lucas' original framework.

No, the sister was supposed to be introduced in RotJ, but was dropped during early script edits and the character merged with Leia.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The guy has a galactic sized ego.

Well, if I created one of the most valuable film franchises of all time I'd think pretty highly of myself, too.

True, but Lucas really was just the idea guy. Everyone else made it work.

The prequels are what happens when you don't have someone actually proofreading the idea guy's stuff.

Nothing would have ever happened without his ideas though. Lucas created Star Wars. Sometimes people are overly mean to him, I think. He has a lot of good ideas, but people only seem to give attention to his bad ideas.

Thats really the problem. Idea guys have good and bad ideas. The issue is that idea guys cannot be trusted to tell the difference. They're a spigot, you need someone standing there to sift out the good ideas from the bad.

But Lucas was a clever guy and managed to ensure he retained ownership, and seized the merchandise angle before that was really a thing. So he gained $ and then the power, something its not good for an idea guy to have.

Idea guys should be monitored, locked away in a sanctum where they can churn out their ideas so you can filter them out. They should never be given the power to surround themselves with Yes men.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The guy has a galactic sized ego.

Well, if I created one of the most valuable film franchises of all time I'd think pretty highly of myself, too.

True, but Lucas really was just the idea guy. Everyone else made it work.

The prequels are what happens when you don't have someone actually proofreading the idea guy's stuff.

That has nothing to do with his ego coming from becoming insanely successful by creating a pop culture phenomenon.

For better or for worse, he's the man responsible for Star Wars.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The guy has a galactic sized ego.

Well, if I created one of the most valuable film franchises of all time I'd think pretty highly of myself, too.

True, but Lucas really was just the idea guy. Everyone else made it work.

The prequels are what happens when you don't have someone actually proofreading the idea guy's stuff.

That has nothing to do with his ego coming from becoming insanely successful by creating a pop culture phenomenon.

For better or for worse, he's the man responsible for Star Wars.

Exactly.

I'm also twitching in excitement for the movie to come out. I think Battlefront is going to be played all day today.

While on the subject of George Lucas, he has apparently seen The Force Awakens and "he really liked it," according to Kathleen Kennedy.

Meanwhile, my personal level of hype is reaching a fever pitch.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, I am 15, and I am very familiar with Star Wars, and so is everyone else my age I know. It is really hard not to know about Star Wars, given how much it has become part of universal popular culture. Star War is just like the Lord of the Rings in that regard.

No, Star Wars has an order of magnitude more cultural penetration than even LOTR.

The LotR movies, sure. If we're talking the books it becomes a much fairer fight.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Well, I am 15, and I am very familiar with Star Wars, and so is everyone else my age I know. It is really hard not to know about Star Wars, given how much it has become part of universal popular culture. Star War is just like the Lord of the Rings in that regard.

No, Star Wars has an order of magnitude more cultural penetration than even LOTR.

The LotR movies, sure. If we're talking the books it becomes a much fairer fight.

I would very much disagree with that.

Tolkien changed the fantasy genre with his stories, that much is certain. George Lucas didn't just change science fiction, he changed popular culture.

Arguably Tolkien created modern fantasy. Big as it is, Star Wars didn't create SciFi. We'll just agree to disagree, it's getting OT.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Arguably Tolkien created modern fantasy. Big as it is, Star Wars didn't create SciFi. We'll just agree to disagree, it's getting OT.

Without going too off topic, Tolkien didn't create modern fantasy, but popularized a small subset of fantasy at the expense of the much wider and more vibrant genre it had been before. Fantasy only started recovering from Tolkien's influence in the late 90's at best.

The main point, though, is what percentage of the world population do you think reads for enjoyment? And of that number, how many read English? And of that smaller number, how many read genre fiction? Of that even smaller number, how many read past the first mind-deadening hundred pages of LOTR when there are hundreds of other, more enjoyable and better written fantasy books to read?

Star Wars is recognized around the globe. It's up there with Coca Cola and Mickey Mouse for most recognized brands in the world. There really is no comparison about which franchise had more of an effect on popular culture.

I'm going to give it to Star Wars.

But, not for the reasons most people would think. It would be a close run thing, with LOTR winning. If it weren't for 2 reasons.

1) Technology/filming. The technology done in the Star Wars films basically changed cinema. We're talking Lucasfilm, Skywalker Sound, cameras, all that stuff I know nothing about. Star Wars changed the 'way' you do films. Heck, it basically created the Summer blockbuster.

2) Instead of writing anything here, I'm just going to go with...

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The guy has a galactic sized ego.

He's 71 years old. Has he been tested for the Alzheimer disease?

Rich doesn't prevent that, and dementia is an early indicator...

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The main point, though, is what percentage of the world population do you think reads for enjoyment? And of that number, how many read English? .

...or any of the dozens of other languages into which the books have been translated?

 insaniak wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The main point, though, is what percentage of the world population do you think reads for enjoyment? And of that number, how many read English? .

...or any of the dozens of other languages into which the books have been translated?

Sure. That will add a few thousandths of a percentage point to the total.

I'm pretty sure more people have access to books than movies. And, if you are talking about English, SW would have to be dubbed/subbed as well, you know, so that argument is a non-starter.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm pretty sure more people have access to books than movies. And, if you are talking about English, SW would have to be dubbed/subbed as well, you know, so that argument is a non-starter.

Do you have proof for that? I assume you mean access to fantasy books, and not just highly distributed texts like the Bible, the Koran or Lotus Sutra. On the face of it, that's quite a ridiculous an extraordinary claim.

Honestly, I would expect there are more DVD copies of Star Wars in use than LotR books in print right now, and easier access to the films through TV and local theaters than you allow. Reading has always lagged far behind audiovisual media in cultural penetration or spread. LotR is fairly niche (yes, it is), so while it is very important to nerds, it really isn't the same kind of cultural force that Star Wars is. If you meet someone who hasn't read LotR, you just assume they don't read or have different tastes. If you meet someone who hasn't seen Star Wars, you immediately as them, "What?? Why not?"

And are you seriously suggesting that dubbing or subbing movies is somehow harder or less common than translating novels? Because I hope you are not suggesting that. If you've ever looked at a Star Wars memorabilia book/site/whatever, you know the movie has been translated into dozens of languages decades ago.


Star Wars is a franchise worth at least 4 billion dollars. LotR is a franchise Be Afraid thinks he might buy the miniature rights to. There's a huge difference in scale, here.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm pretty sure more people have access to books than movies. And, if you are talking about English, SW would have to be dubbed/subbed as well, you know, so that argument is a non-starter.

Do you have proof for that? I assume you mean access to fantasy books, and not just highly distributed texts like the Bible, the Koran or Lotus Sutra. On the face of it, that's quite a ridiculous an extraordinary claim.

Honestly, I would expect there are more DVD copies of Star Wars in use than LotR books in print right now, and easier access to the films through TV and local theaters than you allow. Reading has always lagged far behind audiovisual media in cultural penetration or spread. LotR is fairly niche (yes, it is), so while it is very important to nerds, it really isn't the same kind of cultural force that Star Wars is. If you meet someone who hasn't read LotR, you just assume they don't read or have different tastes. If you meet someone who hasn't seen Star Wars, you immediately as them, "What?? Why not?"

And are you seriously suggesting that dubbing or subbing movies is somehow harder or less common than translating novels? Because I hope you are not suggesting that. If you've ever looked at a Star Wars memorabilia book/site/whatever, you know the movie has been translated into dozens of languages decades ago.


Star Wars is a franchise worth at least 4 billion dollars. LotR is a franchise Be Afraid thinks he might buy the miniature rights to. There's a huge difference in scale, here.

How is "more people can get their hands on books than movies" an extraordinary claim in the least? Videos require extra peripherals that books don't. And how does "acess to fantasy books" hurt them more than "access to sci-fi movies"?

And by the translating thing, I'm saying that saying "books in engish" is a non-starter, as the same is true for the movies. It's exactly the same. It's actually more complicated if you are dubbing it, as that requires voice actors.

Edit: I should point out, that I am not arguing about "which has greater impact", just against those particular arguments.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm pretty sure more people have access to books than movies. And, if you are talking about English, SW would have to be dubbed/subbed as well, you know, so that argument is a non-starter.

Do you have proof for that? I assume you mean access to fantasy books, and not just highly distributed texts like the Bible, the Koran or Lotus Sutra. On the face of it, that's quite a ridiculous an extraordinary claim.

Honestly, I would expect there are more DVD copies of Star Wars in use than LotR books in print right now, and easier access to the films through TV and local theaters than you allow. Reading has always lagged far behind audiovisual media in cultural penetration or spread. LotR is fairly niche (yes, it is), so while it is very important to nerds, it really isn't the same kind of cultural force that Star Wars is. If you meet someone who hasn't read LotR, you just assume they don't read or have different tastes. If you meet someone who hasn't seen Star Wars, you immediately as them, "What?? Why not?"

And are you seriously suggesting that dubbing or subbing movies is somehow harder or less common than translating novels? Because I hope you are not suggesting that. If you've ever looked at a Star Wars memorabilia book/site/whatever, you know the movie has been translated into dozens of languages decades ago.


Star Wars is a franchise worth at least 4 billion dollars. LotR is a franchise Be Afraid thinks he might buy the miniature rights to. There's a huge difference in scale, here.

How is "more people can get their hands on books than movies" an extraordinary claim in the least? Videos require extra peripherals that books don't. And how does "acess to fantasy books" hurt them more than "access to sci-fi movies"?

And by the translating thing, I'm saying that saying "books in engish" is a non-starter, as the same is true for the movies. It's exactly the same. It's actually more complicated if you are dubbing it, as that requires voice actors.

Edit: I should point out, that I am not arguing about "which has greater impact", just against those particular arguments.

TV programming has been broadcast for decades, including movies, of which Star Wars has probably been the most broadcast movie since Wizard of Oz or Gone with the Wind. Each book is a purchase, traditionally from a book store. Before the big box bookstores, it was difficult finding stores with a lot of range and depth, required for finding genre fiction. LOTR had been out for a while before it became somewhat mainstream in the 70's, so it was probably easier to find than most fantasy or sci fi novels, but not broadcast over the very air. TV has always been more accessible than books. Movie theaters are also ubiquitous throughout the world, while I can name states with less than five book stores.

As for translated copies, translated books have always suffered compared to native literature. LOTR also seems to appeal to a narrower spectrum of cultures than Star Wars. Outside of the English-speaking world, I would expect Star Wars to enjoy even more relative popularity than it does here.

LOTR is like HHGTtG or Firefly in that its fans just can't believe how much of the overwhelming majority of people are not into it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If LOTR books sold like Star Wars DVD's, tickets or rebroadcast rights, we'd see LotR branding in diaper commercials, too. The Star Wars name can apparently move grapes, toilet paper, and cleaning products. That's an insane amount of saturation.

You know what? I was about to argue that Lord of the Rings was just at a nadir of popularity, much like Star Wars after its prequels ended. But a quick amazon search revealed 169,000 or so Lord of the rings Items..... and almost 1.5 million entries for Star Wars. Bob is absolutely right about this. Star Wars is a merchandising force without equal. For some more fun reference- Star Trek had 231,000 or so, and Firefly had 46,000.

I'm inclined to think that a book can have a larger audience than a movie- but that may be wishful thinking.