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Smoke is actually the most interesting aspect of the film to me. He seems like a bigger threat than even Palpatine. Especially if he turns out to be Palpatines master Plagious, resurectted from the dead. I'm really excited about that possibility, because really...the villains have been Underwhelming compared to the EU...

Anyone remember Death Sion, Nihlus and Traya from KOTOR?

Sion was an immortal zombie, sustained and kept alive by hatred anger and pain.
Nihlus was a wraith, a formless spirit who had to feed on the force energy of entire planets to survive.
And Traya had a vendetta against the force itself, both light and dark, and sought its permanent destruction.

I have to say, t was I expected from disney, just, Ok. It wasnt anything special, but wasnt bad.
Kylo Ren was the weakest I think. He is worse than Anakin because we dont know why he fell and is Emo, they removed all menace he had by the end of the film. I think Ray might fall to the darkside, I would like to see that.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
... and why the original trilogy was renamed to Episode 4,5,6.

They weren't... The original Trilogy was always Episodes 4, 5 and 6.

The reasons for that have varied over the years... Way back int he day, Lucas had said that he originally envisaged Star Wars as a series of 9 films, but that he started at number 4 because it was the best place in the storyline to kick things off.

By the time he had finished the Prequels, he was claiming that it had only ever been intended to be 6 movies, because Star Wars is ultimately Anakin's story... but also that the 'Episode 4' was just a nod back to early cinema serials, rather than deliberately marking the movie's position in the storyline. He just wanted to make it look like a part of an ongoing storyline, regardless of whether or not he ever actually got to make the other 5 films..

Im 99% sure it was Starwars not a New Hope Episode 4.

It wasn't until later that the Episode numbers had been added.

The first film in the series, Star Wars (later subtitled Episode IV: A New Hope), was released on May 25, 1977 by 20th Century Fox and became a worldwide pop culture phenomenon. It was followed by the similarly successful sequels The Empire Strikes Back (1980) and Return of the Jedi (1983); these three films constitute the original Star Wars trilogy.

From Wikipedia but the episodes weren't a thing at the start. Just Starwars and then the sequels had their definitive names.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Smoke is actually the most interesting aspect of the film to me. He seems like a bigger threat than even Palpatine. Especially if he turns out to be Palpatines master Plagious, resurectted from the dead. I'm really excited about that possibility, because really...the villains have been Underwhelming compared to the EU...

I wouldn't get too excited... it's been made fairly clear that it's not the case.

Abrahms has denied it, Lawrence Kasdan apparently didn't even know who Pagueis was when asked about it at Comic Con, and Andy Serkis has said he's a completely new character.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Im 99% sure it was Starwars not a New Hope Episode 4. .

For the original theatrical release, yes... but apparently only because Fox wouldn't let him have the subtitle as they thought it would be confusing.

It was added for the rerelease after Empire was released... and Empire and RotJ did have the episode numbers from the start.

It is too, it's not on any posters or anything from the release but I just checked my copy and it does have the episode number.

Crazy.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Kylo Ren was the weakest I think. He is worse than Anakin because we dont know why he fell and is Emo, they removed all menace he had by the end of the film.

Except he's written and acted much better than Anakin. He's supposed to come across as trying to hard and not having a lot of menace. That's the point. He so desperately wants to be Vader that he's trying as hard as possible to be menacing.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I think Ray might fall to the darkside, I would like to see that.

While it's an obvious character beat for her, I'm not sure Disney will do it. They have a strong female lead which audiences seem to really like. She might have struggles, as Luke did, but falling I don't see.

on the ren thing, he was menacing up until his mask was taken off. HE seemed to have then gotten hit with a nerf bat constantly throughout the film. First, he can sense Solo when he crashes, but not when he is a few meters away? he can stop a laser bolt mid flight and keep it there while talking, but looses to an untrained force sensitive?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
First, he can sense Solo when he crashes, but not when he is a few meters away?

Vader sensed Obi Wan was on the Death Star, but didn't know exactly where he was, and they were much closer. Vader knew Luke was in the Throne Room, but didn't know exactly where Sensing someones presence doesn't triangulate their location for you. Ben knew he was on the planet, but didn't know he was in the same room as him.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
he can stop a laser bolt mid flight and keep it there while talking, but looses to an untrained force sensitive?

These are different abilities. Stopping a blaster bolt mid flight shows fairly decent force mastery.Lightsaber training is different - and with the fight Finn had with that other Stormtrooper, they're obviously trained in melee combat. Rey knows her way around a staff, there's no reason to think she might not also know a bit about bladed combat. She lived on a fairly hostile world.

Added to that, which everyone keeps forgetting. Ben had just murdered his father, so he was emotionally a trainwreck during that fight, and had just been shot in the stomach by a Bowcaster. He then won both fights, but got sucker punched at the end because he got cocky and tried to turn Rey instead of just finishing her.

Thats another thing, Bowcasters are supposed to have massive recoil, so only wookie can fire them, why the hell is Han able to use one?

Not true. The real issue is traditional bowcasters are hand cocked, which takes massive physical strength. Not that the recoil is too much for a human. However many bowcasters, including Chewies, have automatic cocking. Eliminating that problem entirely.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Thats another thing, Bowcasters are supposed to have massive recoil, so only wookie can fire them, why the hell is Han able to use one?

Bowcasters were supposed to have massive recoil.

Presumably, that's not a thing in the new continuity.


You must unlearn what you have learned...





Edit - or what Grey Templar said... I vaguely recalled that in the old EU there was something about bowcasters being hard to use, but couldn't recall for sure what the actual issue was.


Of course, even the term 'bowcaster' is up in the air now. The only time Chewie's weapon is referred to in the original movies, it's just called a crossbow.

 insaniak wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Thats another thing, Bowcasters are supposed to have massive recoil, so only wookie can fire them, why the hell is Han able to use one?

Bowcasters were supposed to have massive recoil.

Presumably, that's not a thing in the new continuity.


You must unlearn what you have learned...





Edit - or what Grey Templar said... I vaguely recalled that in the old EU there was something about bowcasters being hard to use, but couldn't recall for sure what the actual issue was.


Of course, even the term 'bowcaster' is up in the air now. The only time Chewie's weapon is referred to in the original movies, it's just called a crossbow.

Too old we are, to begin training. Disney Canon, the way to the dark side is.

Though there's actually an explanation for why Stormtroopers work sanitation.

I loved the film, Im just, confused TBH about the Nazis......i mean first order.
They are the remnants of the empire? The Empire itself? is there a new Government, the senate they elude to? if so, how is it related to the resistance? Why is the resistance a thing?
If the First Order is just the remnants of the empire, where did they get the funds to build the star killer?
If the star killer is fueled by suns, does it have to move? How do they move a planet? If it doesnt move, does the star just, reignite?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
They are the remnants of the empire? The Empire itself? is there a new Government, the senate they elude to? if so, how is it related to the resistance? Why is the resistance a thing?

This is vaguely alluded to in the opening text crawl, which is about as much as anyone got leading into A New Hope in 1977 without reams of expanded material.

Luke Skywalker has vanished.
In his absence, the sinister
FIRST ORDER has risen
from the ashes of the Empire
and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi,
has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC,
General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE.
She is desperate to find her
brother Luke and gain his
help in restoring peace and
justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring
pilot on a secret mission
to Jakku, where an old ally
has discovered a clue to
Luke’s whereabouts . . . .

So the Republic is around, but for some reason are funding a cold war through the Resistance with the First Order rather than opening opposing it. The First Order are what's left of the Empire.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
If the First Order is just the remnants of the empire, where did they get the funds to build the star killer?

One assumes they control quite a bit of what the Empire once had. Maybe one of the founders was one of the Empires accountants.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
If the star killer is fueled by suns, does it have to move? How do they move a planet? If it doesnt move, does the star just, reignite?

Starkiller base in the movie is stupid. They should have gone with the book version (which is, confusingly, simultaneously canon with the movie version). In the novelisation, it is fuelled by dark matter rather than the sun, and fires a ball of energy that disappears into hyperspace shortly after leaving the guns barrel, then wipes out the target planet when arriving.

The movie version was more impressive visually, and let them do the fading light on the planet as they fought the final battle, but the novel version just made a bit more sense.

Does the novelization do anything to make us feel one way or another about the Republic? Because it gets about ten seconds of screen time in the movie, and everyone acts stunned, and then promptly forgets about it. Apparently it's done a pretty gak job over the past thirty years of its existence, as an even more fanatical version of the Empire is powerful and wealthy enough to build something like the Starkiller base.

And why does anyone ever build ball-shaped space station weapons in the Star Wars universe? It literally never works. They get to blow up one target at the most, and then promptly get destroyed by a bunch of rag-tag, plucky heroes.

Saw the movie last night, enjoyed it while I was watching, but thinking about it further just had me realize it's a modernized remake of A New Hope with too much story crammed into 2.5 hours (somehow). I'm hopeful that Rey, Kylo and Finn get more character development over the next two movies.

 infinite_array wrote:
Does the novelization do anything to make us feel one way or another about the Republic? Because it gets about ten seconds of screen time in the movie, and everyone acts stunned, and then promptly forgets about it. Apparently it's done a pretty gak job over the past thirty years of its existence, as an even more fanatical version of the Empire is powerful and wealthy enough to build something like the Starkiller base.

And why does anyone ever build ball-shaped space station weapons in the Star Wars universe? It literally never works. They get to blow up one target at the most, and then promptly get destroyed by a bunch of rag-tag, plucky heroes.

Saw the movie last night, enjoyed it while I was watching, but thinking about it further just had me realize it's a modernized remake of A New Hope with too much story crammed into 2.5 hours (somehow). I'm hopeful that Rey, Kylo and Finn get more character development over the next two movies.

As I said earlier, there was a golden opportunity to cleverly twist the whole Star Wars premise and make it relevant to the times.

I used the example of Skyfall, where the villain arrived at Bond's lair, as opposed to Bond at the villain's lair. I loved this twist.

Imagine if the TFA, did this. The New Republic, who were once the rebels, are now up against the remnants of the Empire, who have become the new rebels/terrorists.

That's how I would have written it. Sith Terrorists, and the first order trying to blow up the New Republic's star base for a change using their evil Z-wings

Palpatine did this to an extent in the prequels, but this idea could have been taken further.

 -Loki- wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Kylo Ren was the weakest I think. He is worse than Anakin because we dont know why he fell and is Emo, they removed all menace he had by the end of the film.

Except he's written and acted much better than Anakin. He's supposed to come across as trying to hard and not having a lot of menace. That's the point. He so desperately wants to be Vader that he's trying as hard as possible to be menacing.

Well said.

I thought Driver, Boyega, and Ridley were all really good.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
on the ren thing, he was menacing up until his mask was taken off. HE seemed to have then gotten hit with a nerf bat constantly throughout the film. First, he can sense Solo when he crashes, but not when he is a few meters away? he can stop a laser bolt mid flight and keep it there while talking, but looses to an untrained force sensitive?

However the point is Ren doesnt need a mask. Vader looked dangerous in a mask because Vader was dangerous and had a dangerous rep. The mask was something he had to wear.

Ren wears a mask as a crutch, because underneath he doesn't look the part of a big bad. he does gain at least the benefits of a helmet; it problably has optics comm link etc but he keeps the mask on all the time even though he is of sufficient rank to go around without his helmet on.

Nevertheless Ren's mask is there to hide his deep insecurities, and that came across clearly in the film, which was a sign of good casting acting and story.

I'm ok with Ren getting beaten by Rae.

She's pretty good with a staff and has had to live by herself from a young age and look after herself and is strong in the force.

There's no telling how much weapon training Ren has had.

We know that he betrayed Luke, and killed the other Jedi in training, we don't know how much combat training, if any Luke would have given them. Luke barely had any himself.

Snoke never completed his training and given his size (if that's not a misdirection) he may not have taught him anything about sabre fighting.

Plus he's been shot, was in a middle of explosion and slashed a bit by Finn so he wasn't at his best anyway.

And the force was with Rae obviously


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
on the ren thing, he was menacing up until his mask was taken off. HE seemed to have then gotten hit with a nerf bat constantly throughout the film. First, he can sense Solo when he crashes, but not when he is a few meters away? he can stop a laser bolt mid flight and keep it there while talking, but looses to an untrained force sensitive?

However the point is Ren doesnt need a mask. Vader looked dangerous in a mask because Vader was dangerous and had a dangerous rep. The mask was something he had to wear.

Ren wears a mask as a crutch, because underneath he doesn't look the part of a big bad. he does gain at least the benefits of a helmet; it problably has optics comm link etc but he keeps the mask on all the time even though he is of sufficient rank to go around without his helmet on.

Nevertheless Ren's mask is there to hide his deep insecurities, and that came across clearly in the film, which was a sign of good casting acting and story.

Other reasons for Ren using a mask could also be because he idolises Vader so has imitated him.

Also I think he's ashamed of his parents and doesn't want to show his face and let people know.

 Orlanth wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
on the ren thing, he was menacing up until his mask was taken off. HE seemed to have then gotten hit with a nerf bat constantly throughout the film. First, he can sense Solo when he crashes, but not when he is a few meters away? he can stop a laser bolt mid flight and keep it there while talking, but looses to an untrained force sensitive?

However the point is Ren doesnt need a mask. Vader looked dangerous in a mask because Vader was dangerous and had a dangerous rep. The mask was something he had to wear.

Ren wears a mask as a crutch, because underneath he doesn't look the part of a big bad. he does gain at least the benefits of a helmet; it problably has optics comm link etc but he keeps the mask on all the time even though he is of sufficient rank to go around without his helmet on.

Nevertheless Ren's mask is there to hide his deep insecurities, and that came across clearly in the film, which was a sign of good casting acting and story.

Yeah, strength vs. weakness seems to be the theme of Ren and Snoke's conversations, and it seems fairly clear that Snoke played on Ben's/Ren's insecurities.

Imagine being the son of Han Solo and Princess Leia, the nephew of Luke Skywalker, and the grandson of Anakin Skywalker. Lots of pressure and big shoes to fill there. But you have some talent, and things are going along okay, even if mom and dad are busy and don't seem engaged with you at times. Maybe you really will live up to the expectations and get the recognition you crave from your family.

Then (I'm making some storyline guesses here, based on the "it is you" line from the novel and other cues) along comes some little kid at Jedi school who is some kind of prodigy, clearly more talented than you, and possibly the next chosen one. Maybe she's even in the family. I think that's enough of an opening for Snoke to sneak in and do some Dark Side messing with his head.

Again, it wasn't a perfect film, but I feel like too many people are dismissing elements that may have been thought through pretty well by the writers.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Smoke is actually the most interesting aspect of the film to me. He seems like a bigger threat than even Palpatine. Especially if he turns out to be Palpatines master Plagious, resurectted from the dead. I'm really excited about that possibility, because really...the villains have been Underwhelming compared to the EU...

I've really warmed up to the idea that he's someone completely new. I think it's more interesting that way. Snoke seems perhaps more calculating and cold than Palpatine? And being a Dark Sider but not a Sith might actually make him more dangerous since he's not bound by Sith convention and/or a desire for vengeance against the Jedi, etc.

Major spoiler was accidently released involving the whole Rey/Luke/Kylo thing.Apparently Disney released some models for its infinity system. If you played Ren vs Kylo he says "Turn and Face me, cousin."

Apparently Lucasfilm panicked and is trying to get the figures recalled. Newest spin is he says "curses." Because that makes sense.

Col. Dash wrote:Major spoiler was accidently released involving the whole Rey/Luke/Kylo thing.Apparently Disney released some models for its infinity system. If you played Ren vs Kylo he says "Turn and Face me, cousin."

Apparently Lucasfilm panicked and is trying to get the figures recalled. Newest spin is he says "curses." Because that makes sense.

We've had that discussion before in this thread:

-Loki- wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Rey is definitely a Skywalker or Solo, the Disney Infinity game has a soundbite of Kylo Ren saying "Face me, cousin" when Rey and him fight.

No, it's actually 'Curses!'. Basically, whenever he takes damage, he says 'Curses!'. He randomly says 'Face Me!'. The original recorded footage was him gabbing a barrel and saying 'Face Me!' and then taking damage from the barrel exploding and quickly putting a 'Curses!' in there. The end of the article has a few example of the dialogue, it's not 'Cousin'.

He is definitely saying "curses."

I have the game and have heard him say it.

 Ruckdog wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
It's all in the novelisation.

Which someone shouldn't have to go outside a film to be able to understand/enjoy a film.

They do mention in the film that the Republic Fleet has been lost.

They do, but that whole sequence flys by so fast that it wasn't immediately apparent to me that the First Order had just wiped out both the Republic's capital and the fleet. The first time I saw it, I thought the first Star Killer blast was against a "demonstration" planet (a la Alderan) that just HAD to be in the same system as the Star Killer (because, you know, physics), and that the attack on the Republic's capital was still to come. This is one of the few spots where the movie's brisk pacing sort of lets it down; if you don't catch the one or two sentences that talk about how the beam from the Starkiller can travel through hyperspace, or see the handful of capital ships that go up with the planet, you could easily miss an important plot point like I did!

Wait what? they destroyed the Republic fleet in one shot, the same Republic fleet that took down the Empire???

 Frazzled wrote:

Wait what? they destroyed the Republic fleet in one shot, the same Republic fleet that took down the Empire???

So they claim. It's worth nothing that material outside the film does claim the Republic fleet was downsized (for some reason) by 90% or so after the armistice with the Imperial Remnant, so what was lost wasn't that big.

What's more curious is how they're supposedly controlling multiple systems and have two hostile powers on their borders yet the entire fleet is at the capital.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ren was definitely the superior fighter, if he hadn't been severely injured and mentally exhausted he probably would have easily killed Finn. So Finn managed to injure Ren's right shoulder, which would make any further fighting incredibly difficult.

Ren was fighting Rey with a major shoulder injury and gaping chest wound. Its little wonder he lost.

Ren has no 'gaping chest wound'. He's got a glancing wound in his side- look at where he's pounding. And he's still spry enough to get out in front of the heroes as they try to make their escape. The shoulder wound likewise is superficial- he fights mostly one handed against Rey using his 'damaged' arm and does just fine until she hits the 'I win' button.

Also can people be honest about the conditions of characters in that final duel? People are quite happy to talk about how messed up Ren was but entirely gloss over Rey.

In the space of a few days at most, she's built up some real stress. She's been assaulted by thugs. Had to run for her life from fighters and stormtroopers after being marked for death. Had to hide from space pirates and monsters and save her friend from being devoured. She's had her mind invaded by a terrifying vision and confronted with the realisation no one is coming back for her. This is followed up by having her bodily autonomy stripped and her mind invaded yet again. Then captured by the same group who marked her for death, taken to an enemy base and interrogated. She then gets to sneak around said base, a moment from being blasted or recaptured at any given second.

Are we seeing some stress here? Some mental fatigue?

To top it all off she gets to watch her mentor and father figure get murdered in front of her. Finished up by getting slammed into a tree and knocked unconscious (which means concussion), coming dazedly around just in time to see her new friend Finn lose a duel and probably killed.

So when you say 'Ren is mentally exhausted' what condition exactly are you ascribing to Rey, because she's had one hell of a couple days?

Finally saw it so now I can participate.

 Easy E wrote:
Finally saw it so now I can participate.

Spoiler:

I walked out to the movie happy, but it slowly dawned on me once the credits started rolling that I had been sold a bill of goods. if i wanted to see Star Wars: A New Hope, I could go back and watch my DVD of it whenever I wanted. Why did I just spend money to come see this? It was a cut up version of the original one, with the scenes swapped around.

To me, the only interesting parts were with Han and Chewie dealing with the gangs. Why? Because that at least showed me something potentially new, a different story for Star Wars than I had seen before. Hate on the Prequels/Clone Wars all you want but at least those were new Star Wars stories in the Star Wars Universe.

This is coming off harsher than it should. I had fun at the theater and was excited to see Tie Fighters and Storm Troopers in action again. It was fun seeing new quasi-jedi in action. However, I just wish I could have seen something less safe, less by committee, and more original. In a way, Abrams did exactly what he always does. He teases something new and different but in the end it is the same old genre cliches.

In the end, my money is on Rey being Ren's Brother and a secret twin that Luke hid away as Yoda and Ben had done to Leia and himself. He sensed the danger. I hope I am wrong. Since I had the rest of the "big twists" figured out and i avoided spoilers and trailers like the plague.

Hey, Rey being Rens Brother would, in fact, count as a twist.

@Easy E: I had pretty much the same reaction. It's like the creative people were sitting around a table, going through various ideas for a new movie, they couldn't settle on anything new, then decided, "Screw it, lets just make another deathstar movie".

Hopefully the sequels will be more original. I do think they set stuff up to where the sequels could go in interesting directions.