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 Formosa wrote:
Bad design that doesn't follow the fluff very well, rhinos should have
12/11/10
Fast
Assault vehicle

But then it would need to cost 50+ pts

The last thing that the Space Marines need is yet another buff, though if you are going to give the Rhino +1 front armour then the Chimera is taking +1 side armour, thank you very much.

Anyway, with the buffs your proposing there the Rhino would need to cost in the region of 95 to 110 points.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The last thing that the Space Marines need is yet another buff

In light of your recent posts, I can't help but find this somewhat amusing.



Is it your experience that you don't table your opponents fast enough, even when you have enough spare firepower to also get the almost invulnerable Vulkan down to two wounds?

There are things SM has that doesn't need buffs (pods, grav, etc) but Rhinos are not among them.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The last thing that the Space Marines need is yet another buff

In light of your recent posts, I can't help but find this somewhat amusing.

Spoiler:

 master of ordinance wrote:


As it was the three man honour guard died to the Tank Destroyer and Vulcan was the only models left standing at the end of the game and even then he was on two wounds.

Is it your experience that you don't table your opponents fast enough, even when you have enough spare firepower to also get the almost invulnerable Vulkan down to two wounds?

It probably helped that I have a vast knowledge of tactics and thus am able to use my army to the very limits of its capabilities.
It probably also helped that the game lasted for 6 turns. And I popped that transport on turn two. So, 4 turns to bring him down to two wounds.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Bad design that doesn't follow the fluff very well, rhinos should have
12/11/10
Fast
Assault vehicle

But then it would need to cost 50+ pts

The last thing that the Space Marines need is yet another buff, though if you are going to give the Rhino +1 front armour then the Chimera is taking +1 side armour, thank you very much.

Anyway, with the buffs your proposing there the Rhino would need to cost in the region of 95 to 110 points.

Again nah, 70/75pts, 35pts for base rhino, 20 for assault vehicle, or 15, fast is 10, av12 is 5/10, so 70 ish points, and it's got a storm bolter.....ooooo scary, it fulfills one roll and that's it, so nothing over 75pts.

And it wouldn't be a buff to marines, it would allow marines to actually be able to assault, and we all know marines are great at that am I right lol.

Everyone's quaking in their boots at the mere thought of assault marines, aren't they.

Rhinos are simply rugged transport vehicles that are fast and easy to maintain.

Chimeras are IFVs designed to support their troops with heavy weapons fire.

Space Marines don't need IFVs as they can carry enough personal firepower to make them unnecessary. If they need more firepower they have Predators or Razorbacks to do that.

Fluffwise, Rhinos are faster than Chimeras too.

Plus Rhinos and Chimeras technically have the same amount of armor. its just the Chimera sacrificed its side armor to beef up its front. Again because its designed to support frontal assaults, while Rhinos are meant to allow its troops to quickly redeploy to a new location.


The Rhino also has to carry several tons of Space Marine at high speed too. You have 10 marines, each weighing 500-800 pounds in armor. Not counting any gear they might have. Low balling that's 2.5 tons of weight. Which is a lot of armor. This might be why Predators and Vindicators have AV13 on the front. They don't have to carry 2.5+ tons of Marine so they can have more armor.

Marines are a very reactive force. they don't go into a situation blind or one in which they will be involved in a war of attrition, if they can help it anyway. The Rhino is part of lightning strikes that Marines are used for, it doesn't need the armor to do that. If Marines are going into a frontal assault, they'll use Drop Pods, Vindicators, and Land Raiders instead.

 kronk wrote:

I can't think of many stories where the Space Marine heros were in a Rhino and it DIDN'T freaking blow up!

Stay away from those cans!

The Night Lords Novel, Soul Hunter, has a Rhino go up against a Warhound Titan.
The Rhino lives.

Someone promote that Rhino post-haste!

 sub-zero wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
The Space Marine's normal weapon is the Boltgun, Str4. AP11 means that it doesn't need to fear a Marine's basic gun, unless it is behind it, in which case things are already going south.

Ummmm......what?

If you'd have recalled, the greatest threat to the IOM from a space marines standpoint, is Chaos. Standard Chaos Space Marines carry Boltguns which are Str 4 meaning a standard Rhino cannot be glanced to death by some lowly Heretic. At least thats my stand on it.

Of course, you throw 10 Fire Warriors at a Rhino and its like cutting paper.

The solution is to become a Sister of Battle and ride around in a Repressor. Sororitas - doing things right since the 36th Millennium.

 GoonBandito wrote:
The solution is to become a Sister of Battle and ride around in a Repressor. Sororitas - doing things right since the 36th Millennium.

Including being made out of metal to reflect enemy fire.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
The Space Marine's normal weapon is the Boltgun, Str4. AP11 means that it doesn't need to fear a Marine's basic gun, unless it is behind it, in which case things are already going south.

Ummmm......what?

If you'd have recalled, the greatest threat to the IOM from a space marines standpoint, is Chaos. Standard Chaos Space Marines carry Boltguns which are Str 4 meaning a standard Rhino cannot be glanced to death by some lowly Heretic. At least thats my stand on it.

Of course, you throw 10 Fire Warriors at a Rhino and its like cutting paper.

CSM are the least numerous members of the Chaos faction.

The Rhino is like a HMMWV, it gets stuff from Point A to Point B. It is not supposed to get into combat. (I am not saying this iw what they were built for, but this is how they perform)
However like all Marines they take them there anyways. They can be ACPs, but are not, but can do the job in a pinch.
Give them Hillbilly Armor (Extra-Armor) and a second Light Machine-gun (Storm Bolter), they can even work as a HMMWV-GMV. Some Grey Hunters with a pair of Plasma -Guns and now you have two M-249 SAWs and a Pair of M2HB .50 Cals
However like a HMMWV they can not stand up to dedicated Anti-Armor Weapons.
You want more firepower you go to the Razorback and you have a light Gun Truck.

The Chimaera fits the role IFV of the M2/BMP.

 Nevelon wrote:
From a fluff POV, marines are already walking tanks, so they don’t need the protection of a rolling one. IG, on the other hand, are squishy and thus need a more rugged transport/IFV.
.

Exactly. If a marine transport blows up the squad inside just gets out and regroups read to attack. The rhino probably got the squad close enough to do their mission.
If a Chimera blows up, half the squad dies and the other half runs off the board unlikely to regroup and take part in the battle. It needs to stay alive longer to ensure its contents can do their mission.

 Exergy wrote:
If a marine transport blows up the squad inside just gets out and regroups read to attack. The rhino probably got the squad close enough to do their mission.

If the enemy is in range, so are you. = If you are in range, so is the enemy.

Oh wow! People want the durability of a Land Raider for the price of a Rhino!

I think the Rhino should be able to take a 20 pt upgrade to give it reinforced plating, that would give its +2 Front and Side AV, maybe even Back AV. It doesn't need to be an Assault Vehicle or be Fast, it just needs better armor. Every Rhino-Pattern vehicle should have access to the Reinforced Plating, though they would have a maximum AV of 14.

If you want to go battle with your transport, take a land raider.

If I was to ask for an upgrade to a Rhino or a Razorback, that upgrade would be Fast. I can't think of anything else that those models really need. And they don't even really need Fast.

Maybe 2 smoke launcher charges.

Other than that, the vehicle is perfect for its points cost.

 j31c3n wrote:
If I was to ask for an upgrade to a Rhino or a Razorback, that upgrade would be Fast. I can't think of anything else that those models really need. And they don't even really need Fast.

Maybe 2 smoke launcher charges.

Other than that, the vehicle is perfect for its points cost.

Totally agree, they are perfect for the cost nearly, but we're talking fluff and fluff says they are qrf vehicles, tough and rugged, the current rhino is not this, I don't mind much though, otherwise we'd have av15 land raiders, that fire pure dub step from their nipples lol.

 Formosa wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
If I was to ask for an upgrade to a Rhino or a Razorback, that upgrade would be Fast. I can't think of anything else that those models really need. And they don't even really need Fast.

Maybe 2 smoke launcher charges.

Other than that, the vehicle is perfect for its points cost.

Totally agree, they are perfect for the cost nearly, but we're talking fluff and fluff says they are qrf vehicles, tough and rugged, the current rhino is not this, I don't mind much though, otherwise we'd have av15 land raiders, that fire pure dub step from their nipples lol.

Fluff says marines are tought super humans, terminators and dreads are almost indestructable. Tacticals marines are cannon fodder in game, so rhino is in line.

Rhinos work pretty well as mobile cover, or at least a distraction. You move to where you want your troops, disembark forward, fire off all the weapons you can, then flat out the Rhino in front of them to block return fire.

Still wouldn't mind it having a little better armor, even if it cost a few more points (while leaving the current version available).

The low armor is why people choose Drop Pods a majority of the time, even IF the opponent knows how to counter-deploy.

If I had the choice between a Chimera, Wave Serpent, and a Rhino, I'd choose the first two every time.

Why does the Rhino have such weak armour?

Why does the Bradley have such weak armour?!

The Rhino is based off the RH1N0 Colonial Exploration Vehicle. It was designed to be an all-terrain vehicle capable of protecting its passengers from the typical hazards of an unexplored colony world - predators, angry herbivores and the occasional sapient primitive with a stone club and meter-long rending claws.

That said, the only reason the Rhino's as fragile as it currently appears to be is because of the Hull Point rules. Really, the glance/pen system is completely backwards at the moment.

Glances should be able to stun vehicles or maybe knock out an exposed weapon mount or damage the tracks, MAYBE blowing something up if it gets really freakin lucky. Penetrating hits should be needed to destroy them via accumulated damage. NOT the other way round!

Ashiraya wrote:Everyone's quaking in their boots at the mere thought of assault marines, aren't they.

As an Imperial Guard player yes I am. The only things that do not [MOD EDIT - PLEASE find a different way to express that sentiment - ALPHARIUS] my Infantry and Tanks in close combat are Tau Infantry and Grots.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I think the Rhino should be able to take a 20 pt upgrade to give it reinforced plating, that would give its +2 Front and Side AV, maybe even Back AV. It doesn't need to be an Assault Vehicle or be Fast, it just needs better armor. Every Rhino-Pattern vehicle should have access to the Reinforced Plating, though they would have a maximum AV of 14.

Sure, feel free to do this. But only so long as you accept the fact that the Imperial Guard will also get it too. And our LRBT's will max out at 15.

Draco wrote:If you want to go battle with your transport, take a land raider.

This. You see people you are all attempting to utilise your Rhino as something it is not, an IFV. Your Rhino is an APC with light armour. It is intended to get the guys inside from point A to point B quickly and keep them safe from small arms fire, a task which it does very well. It is not intended to withstand fire from heavy weapons and it is most definitely not intended to withstand fire from dedicated AT weapons.

Rhinos are a single chassis with many uses. IIRC the fluff from when they first appeared, they were tractor chassis, made to work in battle. When your support team is in a different system, you want a transport that can be kicked back into action.

Chimerae were designed to fit a purpose. Forge-worlds can churn them out by the ship-load, and they're as expendable as the troops they carry. The Techpriests and servitors can fix them up if they break.

If your lightly armoured transport is going to get left half-way up the field as you continue on foot, it doesn't have to be protected that well. This is the Rhino. It is to protect the tactical squad as it follows the vanguard that has cleared its way.
But, if you ride a Chimera into battle, trusting in its armour as you use the mounted gun arrays and turret before hiding behind it for cover, you'll want a tough front-end to help you get there.

 mathaius90 wrote:
But if the Rhino is the standard transport since the Heresy how can someone transport 20 men strong squads in 30k? Did FW release some other DT?

Spartan Assault tanks. 25 man capacity.

However, it's only in the rules that a 20-man squad can't take two Rhinos. I presume they would in the universe. Hell, it's annoying CSMs can't do that. Two Rhinos disembarking 20 CSMs would be hilarious!

Exploration ATVs, not tractors. Do people just not read my posts?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Exploration ATVs, not tractors. Do people just not read my posts?

Nope. Missed that one, after reading most of the posts above it.
See the "IIRC" at the start of the post. It also wasn't the main point in my post.
Yours makes more sense, though.

I did. And I learned something.
Regarding Rhino buff, fast is enough IMO since it is meant to be an APC. Anyway I made this thread to get some explanations and that worked very well.

Special mention to the joke about sisters of battle seen latter in the thread.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
I did. And I learned something.
Regarding Rhino buff, fast is enough IMO since it is meant to be an APC. Anyway I did not make this thread to get some explanations and that worked very well.

Special mention to the joke about sisters of battle seen latter in the thread.

Making it 40 - 45 points and fast would be reasonable.