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 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Bolters are .75 cal weapons.

The LAV has a 1.0 cal chaingun that would struggle to glance tank armor, ev n with specialized ammo. And just because it explodes doesn't mean it's good to destroy vehicles.

And you have front AV14, so what's the problem?

I am pretty sure that chaingun would do a lot of damage if shot at an engine.

In addition, the bolter caliber is not necessarily .75, depending on your source.

I feel like people are displacing the problem to things unrelated like LR rear armour.

I just wanted to point out that, given the fact S5/6 are ubiquitous in the current state of 40k, Rhino struggles to do its job, which is not really in accordance with its fluffy purpose (I guess what the crunch is and what it should be regarding the fluff is an eternal debate, but whatever).

I'm not talking about LR rear armour for a second; the purpose of the LRBT is not to resist to rear-coming fire but to act like a big metal wall or so. Thus, its rear armour is low. Rhino must sustain fire from the front and the flanks, thus, it has a 4th worst AV possible in the game on both sides.

As a matter of fact, it's not really Rhino's fault; the constant power creep seems to have dramatically reduced its relevance, both in crunch and fluff. Too many S5/6 weapons have actually been spammed by the game designers and the outcome is this (I got this when I saw what someone said about "small arms" definition in 40; S5 is actually powerful, S6 is above the average...).

 Mantorok wrote:

 kronk wrote:

I can't think of many stories where the Space Marine heros were in a Rhino and it DIDN'T freaking blow up!

Stay away from those cans!

The Night Lords Novel, Soul Hunter, has a Rhino go up against a Warhound Titan.
The Rhino lives.

No, that was a Land Raider, which is fairly clear considering it had lascannons. The Rhino got stepped on.

It tanked the titan's firepower fairly well, though!

But I suppose it would, given that said Land Raider could fit 10 of ADB's 3 meter Marines.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Not really, small arms fire would - and should - just bounce right off. So if we have to remain vulnerable then so do you. No exceptions.

That is a good point. Marines should be T3 and 5+ save as well, just to be absolutely fair.

There is clearly a general design decision at GW to only gave tanks rear armor of 11+ if they are expected to be at closer range.

And I just realized that what I said was totally wrong, so ignore this post!

In my opinion, the discrepancies between the Rhino and the Chimera can easily be explained by looking at what vehicles they're based upon.

Rhino:

The M113 APC:



Relevant wikipedia quotes:
"The M113 introduced new aluminum armor that made the vehicle much lighter than earlier vehicles; it was thick enough to protect the crew and passengers against small arms fire but light enough that the vehicle was air transportable "

"The M113 was developed to provide a survivable and reliable light tracked vehicle able to be air-lifted and air-dropped, by C-130 and C-141 transport planes. The original concept was that the vehicle would be used solely for transportation, bringing the troops forward under armor and then having them dismount for combat; the M113 would then retreat to the rear."

"The basic M113 armored personnel carrier can be fitted with a number of weapon systems. The most common weapon fit is a single .50 caliber M2 machine gun."

Chimera:

The BMP-3 IFV:



Relevant wikipedia quotes:
"The design of the BMP-3 or Obyekt 688M can be traced back to the Obyekt 685 light tank prototype with 100 mm gun 2A48-1 from 1975."

"The hull and turret are made of a high-strength aluminium alloy, with the front of the hull being provided with an extra steel plate welded over it plus spaced armour from the trim vane. The turret is also provided with a thick steel spaced armour shield over its frontal arc. Over the frontal, the vehicle is protected against 30 mm gun rounds at a range of 200 m."

"Standard equipment includes five firing ports with associated vision blocks."

"The BMP-3 is one of the most heavily armed infantry combat vehicles in service, fitted with a low-velocity 2A70 100 mm rifled gun, which can fire conventional shells or 9M117 ATGMs (AT-10 Stabber). 40 100mm-rounds and 8 ATGMs are carried. A 2A72 30 mm dual feed autocannon with 500 (300 HEI and 200 APT) rounds and a rate of fire of 350 to 400 RPM, and a 7.62mm PKT machine gun with 2,000 rounds, all mounted coaxially in the turret."

Rihgu wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Not really, small arms fire would - and should - just bounce right off. So if we have to remain vulnerable then so do you. No exceptions.

That is a good point. Marines should be T3 and 5+ save as well, just to be absolutely fair.

I would love that but no, that would be wrong. What I am getting at is that you are asking for an already really good APC to have more survivability than an already mediocre Heavy Tank.
If you want that then fine, but Space Marines are not about their tanks, they are about Heavy Infantry supported by some specialist vehicles. So if you want to increase the survivability of the Rhino then you need to proportionally increase the survivability of the Leman Russ to boot.

RazgrizOne wrote:I feel like people are displacing the problem to things unrelated like LR rear armour.

I just wanted to point out that, given the fact S5/6 are ubiquitous in the current state of 40k, Rhino struggles to do its job, which is not really in accordance with its fluffy purpose (I guess what the crunch is and what it should be regarding the fluff is an eternal debate, but whatever).

I'm not talking about LR rear armour for a second; the purpose of the LRBT is not to resist to rear-coming fire but to act like a big metal wall or so. Thus, its rear armour is low. Rhino must sustain fire from the front and the flanks, thus, it has a 4th worst AV possible in the game on both sides.

As a matter of fact, it's not really Rhino's fault; the constant power creep seems to have dramatically reduced its relevance, both in crunch and fluff. Too many S5/6 weapons have actually been spammed by the game designers and the outcome is this (I got this when I saw what someone said about "small arms" definition in 40; S5 is actually powerful, S6 is above the average...).

What are you on about? The Rhino is amazing for what it costs. 35 points is buying you a safe metal box to put your Marines in and scoot them forwards in a way that prevents them from being targeted by all the nasty things out there. If you want them to survive then dont try to use them as assault vehicles. Stick them behind your tanks and advance in an armoured column.
If you want bad then try the Chimera. 65 points buys you a BS3 IFV which can be glanced to death by basic infantry shooting its flank. And no those two heavy weapons do not make up for this. At least your Rhino is immune to flank attacks for the most part.
Besides, only one army has S5 on its basic small arms and that is that Tau.

Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
the fact that they can be glanced to death by a Marine squad or Firewarrior squad that get on their rear is just ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but a furious volley of explosive shots should do a number on the rear engine compartment of your tank.

Especially a gak but cheap tank like the Leman Russ.

Bolters are .75 cal weapons.

The LAV has a 1.0 cal chaingun that would struggle to glance tank armor, ev n with specialized ammo. And just because it explodes doesn't mean it's good to destroy vehicles.

And you have front AV14, so what's the problem?

I am pretty sure that chaingun would do a lot of damage if shot at an engine.

In addition, the bolter caliber is not necessarily .75, depending on your source.

No, HE bolts do not have the penetration. They will hit and explode but the most they will do is damage the engine through some very, very, lucky spalling. And .75 is the most common calibre given.
Hell, even Kraken bolts would have a hard time, remember that this is 40 to 50 mill of hard armour plate that these are hitting. Your bolters should be doing gak.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
In my opinion, the discrepancies between the Rhino and the Chimera can easily be explained by looking at what vehicles they're based upon.

Rhino:

The M113 APC:

Spoiler:

Relevant wikipedia quotes:
"The M113 introduced new aluminum armor that made the vehicle much lighter than earlier vehicles; it was thick enough to protect the crew and passengers against small arms fire but light enough that the vehicle was air transportable "

"The M113 was developed to provide a survivable and reliable light tracked vehicle able to be air-lifted and air-dropped, by C-130 and C-141 transport planes. The original concept was that the vehicle would be used solely for transportation, bringing the troops forward under armor and then having them dismount for combat; the M113 would then retreat to the rear."

"The basic M113 armored personnel carrier can be fitted with a number of weapon systems. The most common weapon fit is a single .50 caliber M2 machine gun."

Quite a dead ringer.

Did someone really just say Rhinos were amazing for the cost?
No. Razorbacks are okay for the cost. Drop Pods are great for the cost. Wave Serpents, even after the nerf, are decent for their cost. The Chimera is decent for its cost.

Rhinos are not decent for their cost. They have essentially no armor and no killing power and have only 3HP. People avoid taking Rhinos when they can for a reason. Nobody allies in Blood Angels for Fast Rhino access.

35 points to zoom a unit up 18" sounds pretty good.

if they live they can zoom back and hold something.

but its ultimately 35 points you are not losing anything special.


Naturally in the balls to the walls all or nothing tourny scene, it wont see play since why bother when you can get razorbacks for free.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did someone really just say Rhinos were amazing for the cost?
No. Razorbacks are okay for the cost. Drop Pods are great for the cost. Wave Serpents, even after the nerf, are decent for their cost. The Chimera is decent for its cost.

Rhinos are not decent for their cost. They have essentially no armor and no killing power and have only 3HP. People avoid taking Rhinos when they can for a reason. Nobody allies in Blood Angels for Fast Rhino access.

The Chimera is terribly over priced. At 65 points its only decent feature is its AV 12 frontal armour. Its sides and rear are 10, and whilst its two weapons may look scary they are most certainly not as due to the poor BS (3) only three shots will hit of which only two will wound and against your average MEQ 0.75 will wound. So stop whining.

Now I can see the problem with the Rhino in your post. Let me highlight it for you:

no armor and no killing power

You. You are the problem, not the Rhino. You are trying to utilise the poor Rhino as something it is not, IE a front line AFV. It is not a front line vehicle that should be out there taking hits and blitzing left, right and centre. It is not some IFV or Tank which drives out there to pound the enemy. It is a cheap APC, a Battle Bus, a TRANSPORT.
It is there to get your Marines from point A to point B quickly and to keep them relatively safe from small arms fire, a task to which it does extremely well. What you are trying to get it to do is to drive out without any escorts or protection and assault an enemy position. There is a reason that APC's in real life never do this and that is because it is stupid.
I suggest that you reassess your playstyle and instead of sending your light transports out try instead sending them behind a line of say two to three Predators and/or Vindicators. Watch as there performance dramatically improves as the tanks block the shots and the APC's carry the infantry to the objective, dismount and secure it whilst the APCs retreat say 6" in to cover.
Then when it is time to move out again your Infantry walk to the Rhino's, embark and drive off to their next objective.

Why the hell does an APC need the armour and firepower of an MBT?
It doesnt.
Stop asking for it.

Just as a note, I do shove my rhinos up the board and use them to carry my units into the teeth of the enemy - and I pay 40 points for them. They do the job admirably, and I have no real complaints. The 6++ on them does basically nothing, incidentally.

Do I lose them? Fairly often. Do I care? No, I'm in flamer range and you just spent a turn killing my rhinos instead of my sisters.

How in the world are you people getting into Flamer range with a Rhino? Do your opponents just not really care?

Maybe she's fighting melee-focused foot CSM?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How in the world are you people getting into Flamer range with a Rhino? Do your opponents just not really care?

Using cover? Popping smoke?
Why do Marine players seem to get the impression that they are invulnerable too everything and thus have no need to use cover/smoke?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How in the world are you people getting into Flamer range with a Rhino? Do your opponents just not really care?

I guess we dont all just play only gun lines that sit on there literal table edge. or super quick eldar flat out jetbikes.

if you flat out 18" next turn you will ether have to walk 6" and get shots off if the rhino is alspoded. or you get 12" if it didnt.

So you are literally at there line at that point which can be 12" or 24" left depending on deployment. or you get 6 more " to that.


thats possible rapid fire bolters or plasma.

Flamers might need another turn unless the enemy is also going for close shooting or CQB

and since these things are cheap you can take more of them and scoot up board with the cargo being relatively unmolested.

Rhinos are just cars on the battlefield

Pretty much immune to everything but heavy weapons and the guys inside can (sort of) shoot which is MINT and most armies lack

To be honest I remember when they were 150 pts each and were dropped to 35pts.. everyone went mental... but that was a lifetime ago.. AV 11 is fine..

You don't have to take a rhino.. you have drop pods and storm talons and land raiders.. if you want a car take a rhino.. if not take a tank

The rhino's armor is actually not that weak, it's just that there are so many high strength weapons out there now that the rhino's armor is now fairly easy to get through

I think the problem is a lot of SM players want the Rhino to perform like a Devilfish or a Wave Serpent or something. I remember having Devilfish envy in 4th and 5th edition when I'd fight against my buddy's Tau list.

Nowadays I know what Rhinos are for and I think they're almost perfect.

Honestly its the issue of the game it self.

as EVERYTHING has ramped up in power.

If it cant effectively whip out a unit then its not worth it.



(Edit: Also if its not explicitly doing something flipping amazing like deep striking without mishaps, free guns, various invulvs or jink shenanigans, or just being very sturdy.)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How in the world are you people getting into Flamer range with a Rhino? Do your opponents just not really care?

OK.

Two Repressors Scouting with melta-Dominions. Deploy at the line (12" back from the centre). Scout 12" forwards. First turn, Combat Speed 6" forward, Disembark 6", kill something big and scary.

Two Rhinos - two Heavy Flamer retributor squads. Two Multi-melta Immolators - two Flamer battle sister squads. Deploy at the line. First turn, Cruising Speed 12" forwards, pop smoke (or Flat Out if there's some nice cover to use).

Exorcist. Shows off how scary it is with its D6 S8AP1 BS4 missiles. Another high-priority target.

Enemy turn: They shoot. They have to prioritise the Ignores Cover meltaguns and the Heavy Flamer-armed Repressors. They could shoot at the Rhinos, but frankly, they have bigger things to worry about than a bunch of weak transports that ignore a third of all incoming fire and need S5+ to kill.

Second turn: 6" forwards, disembark, heavy flamer/flamer time.

Well yes, obviously Rhinos survive if the enemy can't afford to shoot at them because there are more threatening things to shoot at. But that is not specific to Rhinos, it goes for everything.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Well yes, obviously Rhinos survive if the enemy can't afford to shoot at them because there are more threatening things to shoot at. But that is not specific to Rhinos, it goes for everything.

But it is how rhinos get to live. Armor saturation is the only thing keeping from from exploding in a shower of debris.

I like rhinos. They aren't much, but you don't pay for things you don't need. Look at the land raider. You pay a premium for a high end tank, and rarely use all it's features. With a rhino I'm paying for a thin box on wheels. And it's what I get.

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How in the world are you people getting into Flamer range with a Rhino? Do your opponents just not really care?

I guess we dont all just play only gun lines that sit on there literal table edge. or super quick eldar flat out jetbikes.

if you flat out 18" next turn you will ether have to walk 6" and get shots off if the rhino is alspoded. or you get 12" if it didnt.

So you are literally at there line at that point which can be 12" or 24" left depending on deployment. or you get 6 more " to that.


thats possible rapid fire bolters or plasma.

Flamers might need another turn unless the enemy is also going for close shooting or CQB

and since these things are cheap you can take more of them and scoot up board with the cargo being relatively unmolested.

Or Drop Pods that, even with some counter deployment, will blow up your Rhinos.

If you live in an even remotely competitive area you'd see why the Rhino isn't good, especially when the Drop Pod is the same exact price.

Well la-di-dah, good for you.

Some of us have to make do without drop pods for the moment. The Rhino is fine.

I don't know what you're complaining about, Ashi, of course I'm using tactics and other units to protect my Rhinos. That's how tactics work.

Honestly, that's the real problem with this game. So many armies have toys that let you ignore tactics that when someone does have to use tactics to make up for "codex shortcomings", everyone tells them they're beign stupid and/or unrealistic and playing in a "noncompetitive environment".

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Honestly, that's the real problem with this game. So many armies have toys that let you ignore tactics that when someone does have to use tactics to make up for "codex shortcomings", everyone tells them they're beign stupid and/or unrealistic and playing in a "noncompetitive environment".

That plus every loves to mathhammer stuff assuming nothing blocks LOS, everything's constantly in range, and no other mitigating factors exist (psychic powers, smoker launchers, etc).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Well la-di-dah, good for you.

Some of us have to make do without drop pods for the moment. The Rhino is fine.

I don't know what you're complaining about, Ashi, of course I'm using tactics and other units to protect my Rhinos. That's how tactics work.

Honestly, that's the real problem with this game. So many armies have toys that let you ignore tactics that when someone does have to use tactics to make up for "codex shortcomings", everyone tells them they're beign stupid and/or unrealistic and playing in a "noncompetitive environment".

Hahahaha, I know, right.
The thing is these SM players seem to think that their Rhinos should be advancing alone towards the enemy without cover and then get all confused and/or butthurt when said lightly armoured APC's detonate/are knocked out. Why, when you have Vindicators and Predators do you choose to advance your lightly armoured APC on is own? Why not throw a Vindicator in there and boost it towards the enemy line? Why not deploy several Vindicators/Predators in a line and advance the APC's behind them?
Why are such basic tactics as armoured assaults and DISTRACTION CARNIFEX so difficult to comprehend?

More SM players should take a page from the book of the Reasonable Marines. I'm currently on a pod list, myself, but I used Razorbacks to great effect with the 6th edition codex. How? I kept them in cover and I saturated the board with other more threatening and/or juicy targets.

That and if you work your list right they are Free!
They can't get much cheaper than that.