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 RazgrizOne wrote:

Human pocket empire which is democratic and much more humane then the fascist genocidal oppressive IoM. You guys don't get it. The IoM is Nazi Germany on steroids. You have no rights no life nothing. You're a slave.

Wow. Hell no! Just forget your XXIst analysis framework and get down of your high horse. Many people would follow the Imperium not because they are insane supremacist pricks like the ones you're talking about but because the Emperor is actually the only one thing that can keep Chaos at Bay. Even though parts of the system - i.e the Imperium - which was built around the Emperor can be oppressive and corrupted, I don't think there are other ways to unit Mankind better. Look at the poll; even though it's not answered by the billions of trillions of imperial citizens, one can see that many people would try to save themselves before defending the actual glimmer of hope that lies within the Imperial Palace. The Imperium is harsh because it must muster the whole Humanity in an universe where every human available should contribute to the survival of the whole specie. Too much enemies, no time to be sentimental.

(talking about that, being enlisted in the IG does not mean you're automatically sent to a meat grinder, just like Guevesa apologists lurking in this thread seems to think. The IG is the most diverse armed force in the galaxy and for each regiment favouring human waves tactics, there are plenty highly trained units which prefer high precision armoured assault or unconventional warfare like airborne attacks. It's just that GW never talk about them cause not grimdark enough, you see. TLDR; don"t trust the xenos scum.)

But in reality, if you live in the Imperium, chances are pretty high that you'll be a common factory drone who will spend your life working yourself to death and die by the time you're 40. Even if you luck out on the roll of the dice when you're born, you're stuck in whatever social class you're born into. There's a lot of variety to the Imperium, but one thing that's pretty constant is that it's extremely hierarchical and civil rights don't exist. And there are genocidal religious purges for little to no reason all the time. And the general public is kept so ignorant that they can't properly protect themselves or even understand the multitude of threats that could prey on them at any time. For 99% of people in the Imperium, life sucks.

And no, I'm not a Gue'vesa apologist. Tzeentch, all the way, baby. Change we can believe in.

While it's correct that for the vast majority of the Imperium, life isn't great, it's also correct that it isn't that bad either.

I mean, seriously - look at your options. The average member of almost any other race has it worse.

Necrons are barely sentient and have little free will.
Tyranids are not sentient, and get killed and reabsorbed by the Hive Fleet.
Eldar have virtually no free-will and live lives of constant vigilance and duty, as necessity dictates they give everything to their craftworld
Dark Eldar are in constant, deadly competition, and death for them means being eaten by a hungry God
Chaos followers live a similar existence, with the associated danger of turning into a Spawn even if they are successful
Orks are happy, but would you be? Their lives are brutish and short.

Only the Tau, Eldar Exodites, and random pirates have a better life than the average Imperial.

The Tau are a small and weak empire though, and like other (unmentioned in the fluff) smaller races, are vulnerable to being wiped out in totality by many of the other dangers lurking in the galaxy. Their civillians may have comparatively better domestic lives, but they're far more vulnerable than those of any of other civilization to attacks by other factions.

Pirates are not really a civilization, but live self-sustaining lives of freedom. They do however live a very risky existence.

Exodites are in a similar situation to the Tau, but have the backing of the Craftworld Eldar at least due to kinship. They probably have the best life outside the Imperium, all told, as they have both freedom and security.

As for the Imperium? Due to the sheer size, the vast majority will never encounter a hostile force. Most are totally ignorant that things such as Chaos or Tyranids even exist. They may pretty hard and unfulfilled lives, but are they really any worse than say a medieval peasant? It's only from the 20th century onwards that conditions on our real-life world for the average person improved past that of the Imperium now, and they still managed to lead rich lives, as they knew no other life.

So yeah - Imperium all the way, though Exodites have it best of anyone.

One of two places, depending on where I appear in the universe:

Imperial Guard Artillery Regiment, pummeling worlds to dust and slowly working my way through the Imperial Command structure... wouldn't mind eventually wearing a great coat studded with more medals than one could readily count.


Other scenario, appearing in some remote part of the galaxy, would probably make edging on desperate attempts to join up with an Eldar group, Exodite more likely, Craftworld highly unlikely (but if the opportunity presents itself I'd show up.)

Hierophant wrote:

Necrons are barely sentient and have little free will.

Except the Lords, who have complete free will and are basically the Vampire Lords/Tomb Kings of the setting thanks to the Newcron fluff.

Tyranids are not sentient, and get killed and reabsorbed by the Hive Fleet.

Since they aren't sentient, it doesn't really matter. The only one's that are remotely conscious are genestealer cultists, and to them, being absorbed is the greatest thing that could ever happen to them. They don't know any different afterwards. The only other Tyranid life form that has enough conscious to be relevant to this conversation is the Hive Mind, which is pretty much COMPLETELY UNTOUCHABLE by every other threat in the setting. Sounds kinda nice, to be honest.

Eldar have virtually no free-will and live lives of constant vigilance and duty, as necessity dictates they give everything to their craftworld

How is this different from having your life dictated on an Imperium world, except that Eldar won't be randomly executed for no reason, live much longer, have more creature comforts due to their advanced technology, and are actually free to choose another path, or even leave the Craftworld if they want to?

Dark Eldar are in constant, deadly competition, and death for them means being eaten by a hungry God

True, though some of them seem to enjoy it.

Chaos followers live a similar existence, with the associated danger of turning into a Spawn even if they are successful

Depends. This is a really simplified view of Chaos followers, pretty much making Daemon Worlds the rule. Many Chaos followers live outside the Warp, in more ordered societies. Some are even Imperial nobles. And they don't constantly fear turning into a spawn. It happens sometimes, but so does getting abducted by Dark Eldar and suffering a fate much worse than death. At least Chaos followers could fight back against that. They're not helpless prey.

If you're a Chaos follower, you're good at something, and you pursue it, you matter. In the Imperium, you only matter if you win the lottery at birth and are born a member of an important class. With Chaos, you have some level of control over your fate. In the Imperium, you have none. To some people, that tips the scales in favor of Chaos.

Orks are happy, but would you be? Their lives are brutish and short.

If I were an Ork, than by my very nature, I would think it was awesome. And some Orks live a pretty long time. They just haz ta be more brutal an' cunnin' than the average git.

Only the Tau, Eldar Exodites, and random pirates have a better life than the average Imperial.

Again, depends. Many pirates are living on the edge of starvation.

The Tau are a small and weak empire though, and like other (unmentioned in the fluff) smaller races, are vulnerable to being wiped out in totality by many of the other dangers lurking in the galaxy. Their civillians may have comparatively better domestic lives, but they're far more vulnerable than those of any of other civilization to attacks by other factions.

Agreed. The Tau enjoy a higher average standard of living, but are as deeply ignorant of the threats they face in the galaxy, leaving them vulnerable.

Pirates are not really a civilization, but live self-sustaining lives of freedom. They do however live a very risky existence.

So, constantly fighting for survival, like the Dark Eldar and more barbaric forms of Chaos.

Exodites are in a similar situation to the Tau, but have the backing of the Craftworld Eldar at least due to kinship. They probably have the best life outside the Imperium, all told, as they have both freedom and security.

I'm not 100% sure if Exodite's souls are vulnerable to Slaanesh or not. It hasn't really been explained in the fluff. Either way, their lives are harder than Craftworld Eldar because they live primitively. When the Exodites were first establishing themselves on planets, many of them died due to harsh conditions.

Also, you forgot about the Harlequins, who seem to have a pretty good deal, to me.

As for the Imperium? Due to the sheer size, the vast majority will never encounter a hostile force. Most are totally ignorant that things such as Chaos or Tyranids even exist.

Which makes them easy, helpless prey.

They may pretty hard and unfulfilled lives, but are they really any worse than say a medieval peasant?

I wouldn't want to be a medieval peasant either.

tl:dr- Better to live one day as a lion than a thousand days as a lamb.
This may not be your viewpoint, but it's a valid viewpoint.

The point was about the average member of a species. Mentioning Necron lords is like saying "Hey, Cardinals and Planetary Governors have it pretty sweet in the Imperium!". This also applies to your assesment of Chaos.

The question was also about what life would be like for you. Yes, Dark Eldar and Orks seem to enjoy things. Nobody here is a Dark Eldar or an Ork. As the average human stands, transplanted into one of those societies/races with your current psychology intact, you would find it horrific.

I'm pretty sure (though not 100%) that I've read Genestealer Cults certainly do not enjoy being reabsorbed. They have no knowledge at all of the Tyranids other than an ill-defined instinctual longing which turns into abject terror as the Hive Fleet approaches. The average cultist will do anything they can not to be absorbed. And again, with your existing human psychology neither would you.

The only point I would maybe concede is the Eldar one. Would you rather have no free-will and a life of constant duty and protection in exchange for safety, or one of comparative personal freedom (as long as the tithes appear on time, and you don't rock the boat) but with no political or economic freedom, and lots of hard work?

Again, though nobody would want to be a pre-20th century serf, their lives still had meaning and moments of joy.

If an average 40k fan with knowledge of the lore/fluff got dropped into the IOM here's what would happen:

1. At some point you'd slip and let out some knowledge that you're not supposed to have as a lowly imperial nobody. You are now a suspected psyker or chaos touched. The Inquisition gets word.

2. Black Ships. Lots of Black Ships.

3. Interrogation and when they eventually detect no latent pysker tendencies that they can use, execution.

Guaranteed.

 Paint_To_Redemption wrote:
If an average 40k fan with knowledge of the lore/fluff got dropped into the IOM here's what would happen:

1. At some point you'd slip and let out some knowledge that you're not supposed to have as a lowly imperial nobody. You are now a suspected psyker or chaos touched. The Inquisition gets word.

2. Black Ships. Lots of black ships.

3. Interrogation and when they eventually detect no latent pysker tendencies that they can use, execution.

Guaranteed.

good, teaches em' filthy meat drones not to poke around where they aren't supposed to. Curiosity kills the cat, that's How To Be A Good, Emperor-Fearing Imperial Citizen 101.

Damnit.

There is literally no one in this thread that would survive the "reality" of 40K for very long.

Gothic, mother-fethers, do you speak it?

 Psienesis wrote:
There is literally no one in this thread that would survive the "reality" of 40K for very long.

Gothic, mother-fethers, do you speak it?

Psh, verbal communication is overrated anyway, who needs it.

 RazgrizOne wrote:

Human pocket empire which is democratic and much more humane then the fascist genocidal oppressive IoM. You guys don't get it. The IoM is Nazi Germany on steroids. You have no rights no life nothing. You're a slave.

(talking about that, being enlisted in the IG does not mean you're automatically sent to a meat grinder, just like Guevesa apologists lurking in this thread seems to think. The IG is the most diverse armed force in the galaxy and for each regiment favouring human waves tactics, there are plenty highly trained units which prefer high precision armoured assault or unconventional warfare like airborne attacks. It's just that GW never talk about them cause not grimdark enough, you see. TLDR; don"t trust the xenos scum.)

Remind me how those armored assault regiments and airborne infantry faired on Taros. I may have forgotten...


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 Psienesis wrote:
There is literally no one in this thread that would survive the "reality" of 40K for very long.

Gothic, mother-fethers, do you speak it?

Eh. The Tau will be understanding to those willing to work for the Greater Good.

I'd also like to point out that many Imperial worlds are more liberal than modern day Earth. The Imperium falls laughably short of the Soviets- let alone Nazi Germany in every account besides how many bodies they stuff into bags on a daily basis.

@EmpNortonII

Remind me how those armored assault regiments and airborne infantry faired on Taros. I may have forgotten...

And do you remind how a perfect combination of violent artillery strikes, precise mechanized assaults and total air superiority allowed Imperial forces under General Gauge to envelop and destroy most of the Tau defenders of the Gel'beth bridge during the following weeks of their first arrival on Daly'th, thus wide opening the Tau defense line and threatening main population centers ?

Taros was one planet and it costs your beloved xenos their Ethereals and many of their soldiers. I hope they will replace them as easily as the Munitorum would replace its ~300000 losses. Tau victory on Taros had no strategic impact at all. The Damocles Gulf weakened the Tau expansion, destroy at least two Tau sectors and ultimately made your hero Farsight break up with your central authority, providing the Ethereal with a highly militarized rebel state on its borders. Hope you'll remember that too !

Regarding the comparison between Nazi Germany and the Imperium, I'd like to point out the fact that the Imperium strictly don't give a flying feth whether your skin is white, red, blue or yellow, whether you're a man who likes women or men or animals, whether your religion Has one or fifty gods or you live in a feodal or a democratic political system. As long you recognize the godness of the Emperor, as long as you pay your tithe to defend him and don't become a Chaos cultist, you're fine. There is no political creed, only the need to recognize the Emperor and its Church, which is a loosely tied organization which can take many forms and don't always looks like the gothic grimdark Catholic church from the Middle Age. Try to say the same thing about the Nazi regime.

While it's true that the Imperium herds its mutants and undesirables into ghettos... there is no Imperial equivalent to Aktion 4.

Doubtful that modern human would even get a choice. If you did pop in to M41 I suspect your 20th century mannerisms, language and thinking would give you away, especially if you popped in on Terra.

So... who gets their hands on you first?

I'm guessing the Inquisition, though it's entirely possible that the Ecclesiarchy or some other branch of the Administratum would figure you out first. After that? Well, as others have said, they own you. You're a slave. And that's the good news, frighteningly enough.

Get offworld? Nope. Only if you became someone else's servant or lackey. Very few Imperial citizens ever voluntarily acquire the resources to book passage on even a Chartist ship. That eliminates any chance of getting to Xenos space. And if you popped into Xeno territory you'd most certainly be caught and terminated as a spy. Or put into the fighting puts for giggles. Or turned into a plague reservoir, a servitor, a genestealer's gene-boy, a vivisection subject or some other lovely option.

Join a Chaos Cult? Maybe, if you could find one and avoid Imperial authorities of all kinds. If they didn't kill you, and if you survived their initiation rites and the madness associating with Cahos brings. But then, Chaos promises always turn into a different kind if slavery, don't they?

Alternatively, in the Imperium you could just starve to death because you have no documentation and can't get work. Or you might get yourself beaten, robbed, raped, tortured, experimented on and/or sold into slavery by any of a variety of street gangs, cults or unscrupulous rogue actors preying on your ignorance and helplessness. Or worse, if you survive you could become the criminal scum that inflicts all that horror on others.

"In the Grim Darkness of the Future There Is Only War?" Heck no. Say rather "...there is only Misery."

My two cents.

Original Post wrote:Given this state of things, if you were to end up in 40k and have the actual choice of becoming what you want (utopic in the Imperium but still), what would you prefer? "

Saying what would likely happen isn't really the question. It's about who you would prefer to join and in which capacity.

Personally? Imperium all the way. Humanity must lead itself. High Lord of Terra, maybe. Or an Inquisitor (Lord). Work to improve things from high up. But above all work to save humanity.

 Psienesis wrote:
There is literally no one in this thread that would survive the "reality" of 40K for very long.

Gothic, mother-fethers, do you speak it?

In the novel Sons of Dorn (or Fists of Dorn, I forget), they just take recruits who don't speak the language and hypnotise/force information into thier head.
They'd probably just do the same for you.
I'd imagine in a galaxy wide empire where warp storms and other strangeness can isolate a world for centuries, the language changes strangely, so they make sure there is a way to reinitiate the worlds into the fold.

`@fallinq

But in reality, if you live in the Imperium, chances are pretty high that you'll be a common factory drone who will spend your life working yourself to death and die by the time you're 40. Even if you luck out on the roll of the dice when you're born, you're stuck in whatever social class you're born into. There's a lot of variety to the Imperium, but one thing that's pretty constant is that it's extremely hierarchical and civil rights don't exist. And there are genocidal religious purges for little to no reason all the time. And the general public is kept so ignorant that they can't properly protect themselves or even understand the multitude of threats that could prey on them at any time. For 99% of people in the Imperium, life sucks.

Even though you can be right in som aspects, your quantitative methods are quite expeditious. You're assuming that 99% of Imperial citizens have gakky life, but really, you don"t have a clue about this, me or other dakkanauts neither. GW just never talk about the whole swathes of the Imperium that never know war because they are parts of peaceful and well protected sectors. There is no interest in talking about this when you're selling a wargame. But given the fact the Imperium has more or less one million worlds, the actual number of warzones described in the fluff is low. It's quite the same for industrial and hive worlds; for each of these worlds, how many are normal places like our planet. I want to believe this because IMO, it's the most rational POV.

Regarding civil rights, you would rather be wrong I thin. As I have said previously, the Imperium is not trying to impose a political agenda on its worlds. You can be democratic or feodal, they don't give a damn as long as you pay your tithe. Civil rights can exist but again, nobody in GW design teams wants to have a democratic world with a shiny/mary sue cause to fight for. Not grimdark enough. But if YOU want to create suche thing, you can do this, no part of the fluff forbid it. You just have to recognize the Emprah and pay your taxes, that's all.

IoM fan boys are so predictable. Tau or rogue are the only way to go if you have a brain. Depends on if you're more of a bleeding heart pinko or more of an outlaw libertarian. I make no excuses, I love the Tau because I'm a utopian pinko. And you don't get sterilized unless you're problematic. Kroot and Gue'vesa are too valuable as sources of troops and labor for the Tau to genocide them via sterilization. IoM needs to quit the crying; either accept playing for an evil dictatorship and embrace it for what it is (much like Chaos, Nid and Ork players) or join the greater good but stop trying to argue that the genocidal Imperium could ever be the lesser evil. It's like Hitler vs Castro. Is Castro perfect? No, but trying to say that Hitler was a better guy is just no.

IoM fan boys are so predictable. Tau or rogue are the only way to go if you have a brain. Depends on if you're more of a bleeding heart pinko or more of an outlaw libertarian. I make no excuses, I love the Tau because I'm a utopian pinko. And you don't get sterilized unless you're problematic. Kroot and Gue'vesa are too valuable as sources of troops and labor for the Tau to genocide them via sterilization. IoM needs to quit the crying; either accept playing for an evil dictatorship and embrace it for what it is (much like Chaos, Nid and Ork players) or join the greater good but stop trying to argue that the genocidal Imperium could ever be the lesser evil. It's like Hitler vs Castro. Is Castro perfect? No, but trying to say that Hitler was a better guy is just no.

Said the guy who read nothing of the thread.

I'd join the Adeptus Mechanicus, go to Mars and help free The Void Dragon.

Hah! The IoM is a joke. They prey to a corpse and sacrifice thousands of people just to keep a corpse's toilet going while corruption spreads across the entire system, inflicting more damage than the forces of Chaos could ever do.

Let the entire universe burn. The weaker races have failed, let the C'tan wipe them off the face of the starts and begin a new cycle.

...enter Age of The Emperor.

I'd join the Imperial Guard. Several months of void travel, I get to shoot my pew pew Lasgun a couple of times and die. Better than toiling the years away in some manufactorum.

I would contact the Cabal and become a perpetual doing the 007 malarkey in the Grim Dark.

My options would be small, despite my great general knowledge of the 40K Universe. My best bet would be to somehow try and get word to the Wolves, Ravens, Salamanders and Scars that I potentially have information on their Primarchs, and then offer to exchange that knowledge for protection/resources. Otherwise, with what I know, I'm highly susceptible to being picked up the by the Inquisition.

I could try and bargain with the Inquisition I suppose, but I have little doubt they'd promise me the moon, pump me dry, and then either lock me up or shoot me. Marines on the other hand, are far more likely to keep their word, especially if I pass them the first scrap of information in centuries with regards to the location of their Primarchs.

With a potential small bodyguard of Marines and a small ship/crew (my price for my information), I at least begin to have the freedom to make further plans. On the assumption that I am now trapped in the 40K verse for good, my next priority is to acquire access to the various rejuvenation technologies to extend my lifespan, and some form of continuous income. I might try and arrange an information exchange with the Inquisition with my Marine contacts acting as my intermediaries to keep me safe at arms length. With those resources, I can hire more followers, acquire more gear, and begin to try and decide what role I'd intend to try and play in the 40K verse.

The problem is, we know a lot of things, but the things we know tends to drive people in 40k insane.

So either we go insane from our knowledge, or we stay sane (which will inevitably mean we are even more special).

 RazgrizOne wrote:
Civil rights can exist but again, nobody in GW design teams wants to have a democratic world with a shiny/mary sue cause to fight for. Not grimdark enough.

*cough* Ultramar *cough*

If I were given a choice, I think living on some Ultramarine world would be a pretty neat deal considering the alternatives.

The only word in Gothic you need to know is Hito.

That's where an entire STC library is hidden by some local cult. Considering a couple of scouts got a planet each for finding a slightly better version of the standard Space Marine combat knife, you would live out your days in unimaginable luxury, and be hailed as a saviour of Humanity for all of time.

@Iron_Captain

*cough* Ultramar *cough* ,

.

You're right. I forgot about them . My arguments are even more convincing now!

 Silverthorne wrote:
Hell yes I would. Especially if I was a rogue trader. It's like being a system level admiral, but you're filthy rich, strapped with arcane technology, and probably have an extensive harem of Uber space hotties. Hell yeah sign me up. I'll risk the occasional corsair or chaos incursion for some of that action.

Isn't this choice two? I'm all for being a Space pirate, yo, but I don't wanna be executed. I wanna praise the Emperor... but still enjoy life.

I suppose that if I were forced to either serve officially or be a traitor, I'd be a Space Wolf. Those guys know how to party, are super powerful, and watch out for each other. Dunno if Space Marines can even have sex, so the ladies may not be on the table, but hey- joining the Space Wolves is like joining a never ending frat party.


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 Ketara wrote:
My options would be small, despite my great general knowledge of the 40K Universe. My best bet would be to somehow try and get word to the Wolves, Ravens, Salamanders and Scars that I potentially have information on their Primarchs, and then offer to exchange that knowledge for protection/resources. Otherwise, with what I know, I'm highly susceptible to being picked up the by the Inquisition.

I could try and bargain with the Inquisition I suppose, but I have little doubt they'd promise me the moon, pump me dry, and then either lock me up or shoot me. Marines on the other hand, are far more likely to keep their word, especially if I pass them the first scrap of information in centuries with regards to the location of their Primarchs.

With a potential small bodyguard of Marines and a small ship/crew (my price for my information), I at least begin to have the freedom to make further plans. On the assumption that I am now trapped in the 40K verse for good, my next priority is to acquire access to the various rejuvenation technologies to extend my lifespan, and some form of continuous income. I might try and arrange an information exchange with the Inquisition with my Marine contacts acting as my intermediaries to keep me safe at arms length. With those resources, I can hire more followers, acquire more gear, and begin to try and decide what role I'd intend to try and play in the 40K verse.

Go for the Space Wolves. They don't like the Inquisition so they'll be the most willing to help you evade/negotiate with them as opposed to simply turning you in.

Why do you need life extension technology in the 40k universe? It's not like the timeline ever moves, so essentially, nobody ages either. Yay!

Isn't this choice two? I'm all for being a Space pirate, yo, but I don't wanna be executed. I wanna praise the Emperor... but still enjoy life.

If I recall correctly, Rogue Trader have an sanction to act on behalf on the Imperium. They are tasked to explore and monitor the uncharted worlds or the remote imperial planets and enforce Imperial authority there. They can be half pirates or traffickers but, still, they travel with the Emperor's will.