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Just when I had convinced myself not to buy it upon its release because there isn't anything I'll need from it any time soon, FW release it and make me question my decision...

Bloody postage tax. I have £70 I could impulse spend on this.

Add to basket, checkout, what's this:

Delivery: £8.88

Sod that. I can wait a little while...

...And a bunch of new HH miniatures bundles to go with it.

Contemptor-Cortus Class Dreadnought Talon


Leviathan Pattern Siege Dreadnought Talon


Iron Shadows Shattered Legion Force


Survivors of Isstvan Shattered Legion Force


Knights-Errant Shattered Legion Force


World Eaters and Word Bearers Shattered Legion Force

That Contemptor Talon is the being sold as the Contemptor Cortus. Looks like we're spared from another round of contemptor variants at least. Still waiting for the Furibundus!

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think a modern 6mm marine would only have all the detail of a purity seal and still be pretty blobby.

Yeah... no, not really.

Pics from the great Agis Neugebauer's page (http://www.agisn.de/html/death_guard1.html):

deadairis wrote:
What book makes clear how the Imperial Palace would have gone with Perturabo on defense? Is it the mock-up battles he and his own legionnaires do? I don't recall, but I am fairly certain it's a much more open question. I don't disagree with any of your points about what Perturabo has the potential for, but when you get down to it, the ideas that someone is both a master strategist and tactician and doesn't care what price they have to pay for victory aren't able to live in peace with each other. That's why pyrrhic victories are different than 'real' victories. Each Primarch is one of a set of 20 of raw ability in the entire galaxy, so winning by huge margins is really the cost of admission. How they do so is -- and when your defining method is to win 'regardless of losses,' that's not really how one expects 'craftsmanship' to be described.

You could argue it just means 'skill in a particular craft,' but that doesn't really help here. All the Primarchs are 'craftsman' by that standard. I think any of us who are experts in our own fields at least feel they are craftsman even if their field is traditionally boring, and I'd include accounting/bean-counting in that. Well-done finance work is it's own beauty.

So what craftsman needs to mean to be useful here as a term distinct from competence is something more about artistry married with skill. While there is a particular artistry about finding one thing and just doing that one thing with all the force at your disposal, it's not a typical description. A more typical representation of pursing victory, even very competently, with no regard for the cost is madness, hubris, or just plain self-serving stupidity and arrogance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eowPka21BNc

There's a simple test to be done here: if Perturabo is the craftsman and what-not he saw himself as, why don't his conquered worlds reflect that? The extent of his 'superiors' for the majority of his existence are The Emperor and ... that's about it. Lorgar had time to build; Guilliman had time to build; even Angron had time to normalize a non-trivial piece of surgical work across his whole Legion. If what truly drove Perturabo was the craftsman that he was certainly technically capable of being, than he would have built. His compliant worlds would be works of, well, craftsmanship.

Do want to stress that it isn't that Perturabo is incompetent in what he does. Like all of the Primarchs, his hobbies are a normal beings lifelong apex skills. That noted, in a universe as morality-tale driven as 40k/30k can be, Perturabo's greatest enemy is himself. He can have as many awesome designs as he likes hidden in his non-Euclideanly-bound labyrinth lair, but who cares if he doesn't build them and foster them?

Russ didn't go rogue, or at least any roguer, because his ambitions were sharply limited. Dorn didn't go rogue because his sense of obedience and duty was structural to him. Guilliman didn't go rogue because the 500 worlds were the proof that he was better left free to run his own mini-Empire than made to dream smaller to ensure the Empire proper felt safe. Each of these three had to give up something, swallow some core value of their own, in order to both serve their own passions and serve the Emperor. The rogue Primarchs seemed to fail to be willing to give up anything, failed to be willing to swallow any pride or other value, and/or failed to be able to simultaneously understand how serving their own passions and the Emperor could be one path leading them forward, not two paths tearing them apart. That doesn't make it less sad, but it certainly makes it less tragic.

I might have mistakenly drawn the information regarding the Imperial Palace from conjecture rather than factual sources, so my bad. I believe it is implied in certain works but that might just be bad memory on my part.

I don't subscribe to Perturabo achieving a long line of phyrric victories because unlike the real life examples of that, any losses he suffered were instantly replaced and his victories were absolute and ended in entire planetary populations being nearly wiped out. He also engaged in some of the most brutal conflicts of the Great Crusade in terms of what opposition he faced as well as siege warfare being described as the most perilous which should attest to the fact that the high casualty rates were inevitable and not solely a fault of Perturabo's military application (but obviously they contributed to them), again sourcing Extermination; "siege assault - the most dangerous and unpredictable of all forms of line warfare", "Meanwhile Perturabo's own 125th Expeditionary Fleet was driven into the teeth of deadly foe after deadly foe, neither asking for, nor being sent reinforcements or additional resources, save for those it could itself generate and acquire", "thankless sieges and garrison postings in the most dangerous, forlorn and isolated corners of the ever-widening Imperium". Ergo, if he was able to routinely replace any losses he suffered, fight on without actual reinforcements and routinely engage in some of the harshest war-zones of the Great Crusade, I would suggest that the losses he suffered weren't a mar on his military acumen as you imply but more a reflection of the terrible battles the Iron Warriors were constantly forced to engage in - he won victory after victory in those circumstances and used his brutally efficient means of warfare to do so. Being the "siege experts" also pretty much constitutes suffering high attrition rates due to their grueling nature, something that no other Legion had to deal with to the same extent. Some more food for thought in that regard; "For over a year, the Iron Warriors Legion had been involved in the almost single-handed suppression of a major infestation of....Hrudd.....all such actions in the history of the Great Crusade have proved costly both in terms of lives and the sanity of those who must fight such nightmares, and this was no exception....Forced to contend with the violent disruptions in the fabric of time, storms of solar flares and tectonic instability attendant on these incomprehensible entities, as well as the malign technology wielded by the creatures themselves, the Iron Warriors Legion is estimated to have lost more than a fifth of its then active strength in a campaign located far from the border of the Imperium and what to many seemed a doomed and purposeless expedition under what appeared at least to be direct orders from Terra." This ties into both the genius and flaws of Perturabo; the implication here is that any other Legion would have likely given up and lost the conflict by being forced to retreat, but Perturabo still managed to achieve victory against seemingly impossible odds. However, it is as you say in the sense that it only exemplifies his growing madness. I would say he is a psychopath as you say, there's no doubt about that and it is one of his defining attributes and is ultimately a big part of why he turns to Chaos. Annihilating the population of Olympia snapped his mind in half. He also achieved victories that other Legions with incredibly impressive combat records failed to accomplish, which in itself is testament to his military capacity. Whether costly or not, he was the one responsible for those victories where other Legions failed. Using the war against Waaagh! Mashogg as an example; "in this latter incident for example, although before Perturabo and the Iron Warriors' arrival in the war zone, Overdog Mashogg's vast orbital fortifications had previously repulsed attack after attack from both the Space Wolves and the White Scars, Perturabo, whose plan succeeded at last in breaking the line and allowing for the Orks slaughter..." So, long story short, he was most assuredly a military genius that, per Angel Exterminatus, earned respect from Roboute himself despite the latter hating Perty's guts for the decimation order. His methods were utterly brutal but that doesn't take away from his many amazing accomplishments which, surprise, were undervalued by the Imperium and his fellow Primarchs/Legions.

As for craftsmanship and how he applied that to war, he designed or was pivotal in the development of a lot of different weapons, armors and so on; he had a hand in the Typhons' creation, he developed the weapons used both by himself and the Iron Circle, he crafted his personalized suit of armor which - rules-wise - is among the most advanced worn by any Primarch, and if we are looking at the theoretical side of warfare then I'll simply point to an earlier pair of quotes I used; "none could fault his ability to deconstruct any campaign and plot the most direct course to victory" and "each battle and each campaign was no more than a problem to be objectified, deconstructed and overcome." It flat out states there that he saw wars as equations to be solved which is a pretty overt link to his architectural and intellectual pursuits, he applied his genius to conflicts just as he did his creations.

Your point about the worlds Perturabo left behind is rather unusual given that he wasn't given the opportunity to ever remain for a time in any location and was constantly forced into a new engagement, leaving token forces behind to garrison and fortify the world. He held ire towards Rogal Dorn because Dorn actually was given ample opportunities to build which was Perturabo's greatest desire. If you want some examples of what Perturabo actually made - ergo proving the "he doesn't build them" point utterly wrong, here are some (using Angel Exterminatus as a reference point and the 40Kwiki as a source); the amphitheater in the heart of a stratovolcano which would house the Council of Nikaea followed by "a silver lyre in the shape of a horse's head, gilded eggs, fabulously wrought birdcages...(in his quarters) miniature war machines competed for space alongside automata of all shapes and description - animal, mechanical, human and alien....a host of clockwork automatons.....a golden lion that was to be presented to Lion El'Jonson....but which had never been finished, a bronze horse that had been designed for a great centrepiece at Nikaea and never used and a celestial timepiece that Roboute Guilliman had mounted on the tallest tower of his Temple of Correction on Macragge." He was pivotal in the design of the Typhon Heavy Siege Tank, and as per his time on Olympia (again using Retribution here) "new weapons, munitions and hitherto unimagined siege engines were all birthed at Perturabo's hand..." If you seriously want to argue that Perturabo "doesn't build them and foster them" you would be very, very wrong. He built them. It wasn't his fault that the Imperium didn't use his latter designs - see Nikaea - but many of them did see use in Olympia and elsewhere.

As for your final paragraph, I mostly agree but with a few caveats. Perturabo turned to Horus because he knew the Emperor would never forgive him for what he did on Olympia even though he was only doing what the Imperium had fashioned him and his Legion to be - a relentless weapon of destruction. Perturabo despises himself because he became a monster and betrayed his oath to the Emperor. Perturabo gave up his love of creation - as the Imperium didn't want him for that - and he had to swallow his core value of peace before war (again, Angel Exterminatus) to serve the Imperium so as to serve the Emperor. What's the difference? Perturabo - like the Iron Warriors - was misused and it is why he is undeniably one of the most relatable of the Traitor Primarchs, falling short perhaps only of Magnus and maybe Kurze. If you aren't convinced as to why his story is tragic, here's the most telling quote from Angel Exterminatus that speaks volumes about him; "You don't know the things I dream. No one does, no one ever cared enough to find out." Add to that the fact that he was remorseful at turning traitor, actively despised the other traitors for their affiliation with Chaos and lack of honor as well as hoped for the Emperor surrendering rather than dying at the end of the Heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But enough off-topic discussion, woo hoo for Book 6! Going to have to order it at some point for sure, price isn't too bad.

Finally, I've been waiting for a Leviathan Dread bundle since I saw you could take them as a Talon, but this is one of those zero discount bundles so I was all

You may want to take Perturabo discussion to the General Topics, before the mods show up.

There's also a new bundle with the new book and the Crusade Army List, presumably the new version?

 Paradigm wrote:
There's also a new bundle with the new book and the Crusade Army List, presumably the new version?

It's most likely the old one, it doesn't say anything about it being the updated one and it's not available updated on its own. I think it's probably the old one still.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
There's also a new bundle with the new book and the Crusade Army List, presumably the new version?

It's most likely the old one, it doesn't say anything about it being the updated one and it's not available updated on its own. I think it's probably the old one still.

I'd think that, but hadn't they explicitly said that the old book out out of print and out of stock, and the next print run would be the new version? Seems odd that you can't get the book on its own, but it's in stock if you order it in a bundle.

I could just be getting confused, though.

I don't think the updated one is due for a while. I wouldn't risk it until we know for sure.

I emailed FW and was told that it was the current Red book.

I replied and asked if the new one was coming out soon, since the new legion book was coming out soon. I've yet to get a response to that (I don't really expect one).

I rang them, and they also told me that its the old one, they said to me that they don't yet have a release date for the new one.

Well that makes my decisions easier. Thank you!

Don't forget there are two red books. The general army list and the legion specific book. The legion specific book is out of stock and the new one was previewed at the weekender. The general army list is due to be updated in the near future (it was sent to the printers within the last week or so), and the book being sold in this bundle is the old one. Avoid this bundle and wait for the updated version.

They're getting rid of the old stock then. The new one will most likely have some of the contents of the 6th book as well.

So if we just want to use the two red books just wait til the crusade list is re printed and for the legions book to be put back into stock correct?

That's the best thing to do if just looking for the army lists. Wait and see I suppose.

Now if they would release DA decals and new brass spray paint cut outs I would be set for a while.

 Albertorius wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think a modern 6mm marine would only have all the detail of a purity seal and still be pretty blobby.

Yeah... no, not really.

Pics from the great Agis Neugebauer's page (http://www.agisn.de/html/death_guard1.html):

Spoiler:

I get it, there are good 6mm and bad 6mm. These are good 6mm. My point, though possibly hyperbolic, was simply that GW will want a scale that they can show off the superiority of their modern model making technology. I see the change of scale GW is taking with epic as no different than what they've done with 40k over the years as they've gone from a truer 25mm to 28mm to 28mm heroic... I think the infantry models quality will be a bit moot, since they've said the greater emphasis is on titans, and I can only imagine it is all about whatever scale will make the titans look best.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I think a modern 6mm marine would only have all the detail of a purity seal and still be pretty blobby.

Yeah... no, not really.

Pics from the great Agis Neugebauer's page (http://www.agisn.de/html/death_guard1.html):

Spoiler:

I get it, there are good 6mm and bad 6mm. These are good 6mm. My point, though possibly hyperbolic, was simply that GW will want a scale that they can show off the superiority of their modern model making technology. I see the change of scale GW is taking with epic as no different than what they've done with 40k over the years as they've gone from a truer 25mm to 28mm to 28mm heroic... I think the infantry models quality will be a bit moot, since they've said the greater emphasis is on titans, and I can only imagine it is all about whatever scale will make the titans look best.

its more likely that they are just trying to stiff people that already have epic so they need to get new scaled ones. AND to mess with all the 3rd parties that already make it too.

I honestly never remember epic being compatible with other gameing miniatures back in the day. Epic failed because they didn't sell enough to sustain it, so you can't blame GW for doing whatever it takes to sell enough now lest history repeats itself. As someone who worked with a 3rd party bit manufacturer to designed with compatibility to GW models I never blamed them for making changes to their product line. It's their game and they're the ones risking greatest sum of money on whether it lives or dies.

So what was available at the weekender that isn't out yet? The Titan gun, fist and head, anything else?

 whalemusic360 wrote:
So what was available at the weekender that isn't out yet? The Titan gun, fist and head, anything else?

Dominar Battle Automata

 aka_mythos wrote:
I honestly never remember epic being compatible with other gameing miniatures back in the day. Epic failed because they didn't sell enough to sustain it, so you can't blame GW for doing whatever it takes to sell enough now lest history repeats itself. As someone who worked with a 3rd party bit manufacturer to designed with compatibility to GW models I never blamed them for making changes to their product line. It's their game and they're the ones risking greatest sum of money on whether it lives or dies.

not saying it was bad thing.

beast_gts wrote:

 whalemusic360 wrote:
So what was available at the weekender that isn't out yet? The Titan gun, fist and head, anything else?

Dominar Battle Automata

Ah, didn't realize they sold any, thought they just showed it off.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
It would be nice if GW opening a store in your state meant that you could do things like order FW products and have them shipped free to the store, rather than just "We have a storefront in the state, so now we have to charge you sales tax on top of our own VAT

No kidding. This very thought crossed my mind when I got book 4 in the mail and noticed it had been shipped from Memphis.

The Blog recalcitrantdaze just posted these SW and TS sketches from Mark Bedford:



Source: http://recalcitrantdaze.blogspot.de/2016/02/horus-heresy-inq28-and-other-things.html

Damn, those are some sexy sketches. Makes me really wish they went that direction with the Space Wolves as space vikings rather than wolf mcwolferson with all the subtly of a wolf-shaped wolfhammer.

EDIT: ah, but wait, this is Forgeworld! They might actually get this right then!