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I just posted on my group's message boards not to order from Deep Cut Mats.

There are too many good businesses out there selling quality mats. (Looking at you, FrontLineGaming).

Thanks for the warning, OP.

Cost of doing business. How much bad-will, negative publicity and reputation damage has been done by the company's attitude and all for the sake of a tenner.

And, regulations aside, he's not wrong. Why should he be out of pocket for the company's balls up?

I run a small business myself and have at times lost money on individual transactions due to a mistake I've made but you put it right and ensure that the customer is not out of pocket .

That's how you build a reputation for quality service, increase demand and ultimately make more money.

These clowns have lost more than one customer through this, as I don't think I want to give my money to a company who clearly has no clue about the fundamentals, doesn't seem to give two gaks about customer satisfaction and, now has a tarnished reputation. You literally can't put a price on reputation, as a small business.

So many small businesses fail because they don't understand the importance of having a positive appearance.

While everything they have said in this thread was technically correct, it came across as rude and entitled, and all over a fault on their end in the first place.

If a small business can't say "Oh man, we were wrong and this was our fault, keep the product and we will send you a new one", then they need to get a serious slice of humble pie.

Awfully handled, this was.

ive several mats ive ordered from Gamemat.eu and all have been flawless but i thought id chance my arm on deep cut as I liked this particular design (had done for a while but they only just done it in the mousemat material).

The tenner is nothing. Its not even a hours work. Its more the principle of them thinking its fine to make mistakes because hey the customers can just pay for them. The gaming community deserves to get what they pay for. And Im glad to see its not just me being anal about this matter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
thought i would post a link to an old thread I made a while back about gaming mats in general. Feel free to take a look see
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/605753.page

You should probably update that thread with information and a link to this thread. So no one makes the mistake of buying from them.

Let's ease up on the dogpiling please. This is, after all, one incident.

Thanks for the warning, OP. I was thinking about ordering a mat from these guys, but I'll be looking elsewhere.

 Lorek wrote:
Let's ease up on the dogpiling please. This is, after all, one incident.

Aye the way people are going on about this company is a bit out of hand. They made one mistake. Yes they should have been aware of that particular law, but its not as though they've systemically gone about killing people's grannies. Of course it could come out that there's been other issues. They should have perhaps dealt with this before it came to this, particularly in not sticking to their guns on that law, but besides that they seem to have been fairly amicable.

Did the OP at any point cite the particular law he's in a huff about or did he just go straight to insulting the company? The company should have then looked into the matter more then, but again, people are really make this much bigger than it is at face value.

 Wyrmalla wrote:

 Lorek wrote:
Let's ease up on the dogpiling please. This is, after all, one incident.

Aye the way people are going on about this company is a bit out of hand. They made one mistake. Yes they should have been aware of that particular law, but its not as though they've systemically gone about killing people's grannies. Of course it could come out that there's been other issues. They should have perhaps dealt with this before it came to this, particularly in not sticking to their guns on that law, but besides that they seem to have been fairly amicable.

Did the OP at any point cite the particular law he's in a huff about or did he just go straight to insulting the company? The company should have then looked into the matter more then, but again, people are really make this much bigger than it is at face value.

My problem is that they actually posted in this thread, in an extremely smarmy way.

Well, this is interesting

I see that as formal representative of Deep-Cut Studio I don't have any more to add that it is already said. But to sum things up:

- Lee (known as Lutharr101 in these forums) bought a product from us (we use the original name, since it is already available on his posts)
- he was unhappy with it
- he was offered full refund for a product price
- couple of emails later he was offered full refund including shipping costs (not the return costs)
- customer demanded returns costs refunded as well
- case was escalated in PayPal (as we are using PayPal as main means to pay for the good on our webstore) and PayPal ruled out that a full refund will be given to the customer as soon as he provides proof that the item is returned to us. PayPal did not refund the return costs to a customer as well

They are making out like asking them to pay the return shipping for a completely faulty product is ludicrous and they are in the right because of Paypal, when in reality, they sent the wrong product.. they should have immediately refunded or just sent the correct one.

You do not demand a product be returned to you in order to refund it when you sent an inferior or faulty one in the first place.

It is not down to the customer to go to more hassle to get a product they already paid for, it's down to you to immediately make up for this.

This is my problem with this entire scenario.

Complete lack of humbleness from the store, despite the bad quality mat being their issue.

And my point was that they offered a refund, but weren't aware that they had to pay for the return cost due to taking on Paypal's word rather than looking it up themselves. A poor mistake, but its not a sky shattering thing which people seem to be going on about in this thread...

Good point.

Also; Did the OP ask for a replacement before a refund? Seems like an obviously solution rather than jut asking for the money back.

DCS's response looks like a list of facts (as they see them). I don't see any smarminess there. As I say a more level headed approach from all would see this resolved relatively painlessly.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
A minor point: their email did not say they would reveal your personal information. They said they would " respond with full context of this case, including your emails and other information." That "other information" does not automatically equal "personal information."

Anyway, maybe it's the picture quality, but is the mat your received really as blue as it looks on my screen?

What are you talking about? That dress, err mat is white and gold!

I really don't care about the refund back and forth and the intricacies of different countries consumer protection laws, I just thinks it's absurd they sent out a blue mat.

I mean the complete and utter lack of quality control there is astounding. It's literally just a mat. With two sides. And the one that matters is obviously faulty.
Unless they come off the printer face down and are fed straight into the parcels to be posted out that way how do you miss that the whole things is blue!?

 insaniak wrote:

 DeepCutStudio wrote:
. As of today customer is demanding full refund, refund for his return costs but is still has the product for himself.

And he's well within his rights to expect that full refund, including the return cost, once you receive the item back. Given that the mat is clearly not right, a lot of businesses would just tell him to keep it and give him his refund, avoiding the hassle of having it sent back.

This. Unless they think you doctored the photo, why would they want that back? No one else should be satisfied with that mat. Write it off as a misprint and be done.

Could easily happen if a packer just collected a tube off the shelf and posted it out.

It can just as easily be resolved.

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 DeepCutStudio wrote:
. As of today customer is demanding full refund, refund for his return costs but is still has the product for himself.

And he's well within his rights to expect that full refund, including the return cost, once you receive the item back. Given that the mat is clearly not right, a lot of businesses would just tell him to keep it and give him his refund, avoiding the hassle of having it sent back.

This. Unless they think you doctored the photo, why would they want that back? No one else should be satisfied with that mat. Write it off as a misprint and be done.

At this point yes that seems like the best solution. As they'll have to return the mat at cost to themselves it'll be less of a loss for the company to just let the customer keep the thing. That's purely because the mat itself isn't resalable, if it were in another state then them asking for it back would be suitable. Now though for the sake of PR its probably best to just do some damage control. However people seem fine to jump on them and froth about how crap they are no matter what the scale of the issue.

However I will admit quality control is something which should be clamped down on. Yes black mats can discolour, however for an SME good PR is everything, and as this case shows even one person complaining causes a mothball (whether that'll effect the margins is questionable, though if its what prospective customers see it could be a problem). At the glance I had at their statement they didn't admit to a faulty product, which may be down to trying to save face, but that isn't good for PR given the sensitive nature of the other side. =P

I think the issues that people have to make them comment so are manifold, primarily.

1. The company allowed inferior quality product to be sent out, implying poor quality control.
2. The company is either ignorant of relevant sales laws, or unwilling to follow them unless deliberately mentioned, both of which are poor business practice.
3. The company did not seek to rectify THEIR mistake in a way that would not leave the customer out of pocket, which is morally ambiguous at best.
4. The company attempted to suppress communication of their screwup on their facebook page, as opposed to dealing with the issue.

All of these things are not good signals for a company to have. Any one of them, individually, can be explained away as a mischance. Two of them as a minor screwup. But when you've hit all four, it begins to indicate something is wrong with the business to the extent that I personally would not wish to deal with them on the offchance I run into the same issue. There's nothing particularly wrong with making a minor screwup with regards to sending out faulty product, or even being ignorant of sales law, but when you compound that with a seeming unwillingness to rectify their issues, as a consumer you have the potential for disaster in any given transaction.

And when there are so many alternatives, why risk it?

 Wyrmalla wrote:
They made one mistake.

There is more than one mistake here. On top of sending out an unacceptable product, and refusing to make amends for their mistake (which was their moral and legal obligation). They also deleted the OP from their facebook for recounting his experience, and then apparently berated him via email, with comments such as: "Maybe our offer was fair after all? I suggest spending your energy elsewhere than on our FB boards". So the OP did exactly what they suggested, and came here to Dakka.

Also DeepCutsStudio has not yet even acknowledged their mistake. I'm all for giving them a chance to put things right. I hope that they will respond here and do just that. But until that happens, and they admit their mistake, and explain to the community exactly how they are going to ensure this won't happen to customers in the future, I don't see why anyone here should be sympathetic.

Yeah, making a mistake is fine. Everyone does it, whether in a personal way or as a business.

What is not fine is (a) refusing to acknowledge that you made a mistake (even on this thread, Deep Cut are basically blaming the customer, saying it's his fault for not being happy with the obviously poor quality mat he got), (b) being unwilling to sort out the mistake rapidly, efficiently, and at your own expense.

Regarding the deleted Facebook post, did anyone see what the OP posted on Facebook? I have a hard time believing DCS' reaction occurred in a vacuum. It is entirely possible that what was posted on FB was not entirely objective, or fair to DCS, causing them to delete the post. Especially given some of the word choices and assumptions made already in the thread title, and OP's comments.

It is also possible that DCS' is out of control trying to suppress any sort of criticism leveled at them, but without seeing the deleted post we have no way of judging the merit of the deletion.

Many in this thread seem to be willing to parse DCS' replies for aggression and smarm while ignoring the OP's own communications with DCS.

This thread's title is hostile to DCS, and thanks to Google, will follow DCS around for a long, long time. While DCS should be aware of their public image and weigh the rather insignificant cost of return shipping to keeping good PR with customers, it would also be helpful to this discussion if people remembered that there are two sides to this story and we do not have all of the information to know if the deleted post was justified by DCS or not.

So, personally, the only info that I really need is the pic of the mat, and the fact that DCS don't acknowledge that mat as a problem. It means I can't risk buying from them, because I want to buy from companies who, even if they occasionally slip up on quality control, will make good. I don't have the time or the mental energy to pursue a long battle to get a refund or replacement in that case -- I expect the company to just sort the problem out immediately.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
It is entirely possible that what was posted on FB was not entirely objective, or fair to DCS, causing them to delete the post. Especially given some of the word choices and assumptions made already in the thread title, and OP's comments.

If we're brutally honest, unless the OP just posted half a dozen curse words (in which case ignore the following), he's perfectly justified in being unpleasant on their FB given his recent commercial experience with them. Yes, they have every right to erase it (it is their facebook page), but again, the fact is that ignoring him/erasing his comments is indicative of the problems this company seems to have, IMO. Instead of engaging/rectifying, they chose to delete and ignore.

 Ketara wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
It is entirely possible that what was posted on FB was not entirely objective, or fair to DCS, causing them to delete the post. Especially given some of the word choices and assumptions made already in the thread title, and OP's comments.

If we're brutally honest, unless the OP just posted half a dozen curse words (in which case ignore the following),

And we will never know what was posted. But that hasn't stopped the mob from forming and declaring DCS an abhorrent company.

Maybe people should step back a bit and cool their jets. That is all I am saying.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
It is entirely possible that what was posted on FB was not entirely objective, or fair to DCS, causing them to delete the post. Especially given some of the word choices and assumptions made already in the thread title, and OP's comments.

If we're brutally honest, unless the OP just posted half a dozen curse words (in which case ignore the following),

And we will never know what was posted. But that hasn't stopped the mob from forming and declaring DCS an abhorrent company.

Maybe people should step back a bit and cool their jets. That is all I am saying.

Mob? Perhaps I'm reading a different thread. I saw a lot of people say that the company was legally obliged to give a refund including return postage, and probably should do so. Some marvelled at the blueness of the mat compared to the photo, and a number of people, having read the companies response, decided that dealing with a company that caused this much hassle over a refund/product return, was not a company they'd want to deal with. A few more lamented how this company has caused themselves a minor PR nightmare, and two or three people speculated that the number of mistakes made was somewhat unbelievable.

Hardly breaking out the pitchforks.

my facebook post was infact 2 posts.

first read advertised mat with a picture they supply on their website

second post (as you can only post one picture per reply on facebook) was what arrived. And being told I must pay for its return. (Thats when I got the smartarse email)

 Ketara wrote:

Mob?

Yep.

 kronk wrote:
I just posted on my group's message boards not to order from Deep Cut Mats.

There are too many good businesses out there selling quality mats. (Looking at you, FrontLineGaming).

Thanks for the warning, OP.

 Reality-Torrent wrote:
You should probably update that thread with information and a link to this thread. So no one makes the mistake of buying from them.

Oh, and look at this. In the N&R section for DCS's announcement thread there is this gem:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Folks interested in getting a Deep Cuts mat may want to take a look at This Thread.

After reading that... I wouldn't do business with them. And their own representative in that thread did not help matters.

The Auld Grump

So, yeah, I'd say a mob is forming.

So....one person telling their friends not to bother buying with the company, and one person telling another to link to this thread to warn people, which he does.

I think you and I have very different definitions of the word 'mob'.

DarkTraveller777 I understand your points and think overall they may be sound(lots of benefit of the doubt having to be applied there mind). But they have been nothing but unacommatating to myself to the point where they expect me to be out of pocket because of their mistakes.

All I have done i put across MY experiance. I dont imply its the same for everyone or put words in anyones mouth. The messages myself and DCS shared are up for all to see. I only ever responded baddly to them when they sent me the email in the original post.

 Ketara wrote:
So....one person telling their friends not to bother buying with the company, and one person telling another to link to this thread to warn people, which he does.

I think you and I have very different definitions of the word 'mob'.

A group of people are forming opinions based on hearsay.

If you think that sort of response is appropriate based on the information we have, then fine. I disagree. I think people are jumping to conclusions based on one person's account of what happened with a sale gone wrong.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Yeah, making a mistake is fine. Everyone does it, whether in a personal way or as a business.

What is not fine is (a) refusing to acknowledge that you made a mistake (even on this thread, Deep Cut are basically blaming the customer, saying it's his fault for not being happy with the obviously poor quality mat he got), (b) being unwilling to sort out the mistake rapidly, efficiently, and at your own expense.

This is a great summary, and is really important for potential future customers to be aware of.

DarkTraveller, I understand your call for restraint, but the company's own responses are a huge red flag. It isn't dogpiling, it isn't mob justice. It's placing responsibility to rectify an error with the responsible party. The company seems to have focused on the customer's behavior more than the apparent product problem. It is completely unprofessional for a company to whine about hurt feelings because a customer expressed frustration at having to pay anything out of pocket for a defective product. Really, complaining about a business correspondence address being posted by a customer? That information should be on the company website. This was just turnabout to reframe the issue so that they are the victims.

Bottom line, all the evidence presented supports that the customer paid for a product that is defective. The customer is being asked to pay out of pocket to ship it back in order to get a refund. The company is focused on reframing the issue to be about criticizing the customer's behavior instead of fixing the problem.Customers don't have to be unblemished saints in all dealings in order to not have to pay out of pocket to ship back a defective product, should they?

Finally, what has the company done to investigate the complaint? Did someone bother to pull another mat off the shelf and actually look at it to see if the complaint is valid? That's complaint investigation 101. Instead, it appears they are doing everything they can to dodge responsibility. At this point, every item they produce must be assumed to carry the risk of being completely different from advertised because there is no evidence that they have addressed the cause of the problem.