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Though, it should be noted, 40K is somewhat schizophrenic when it comes to PA and plasma.

While a Terminator suit was designed out of the protective armor that technicians working on live plasma generators wore, it's popped like a balloon by plasma on the TT... again, despite being built specifically to resist plasma.

 Melissia wrote:
That's because ME3 armor and shields are better than you give them credit for. Geth plasma weapons are described in-lore as creating clouds of plasma on their target, not merely being bullets.

From the SMG:

This geth weapon works on the same principles as the Spitfire: it shoots superconducting toroids that break apart on impact, retaining an electrical charge that flash-converts the shrapnel into plasma.

From the Shotgun:

The resulting impact, heat, and electrical charge overloads shields and barriers and causes massive trauma to unarmored targets.

From the Spitfire:

These donut-shaped projectiles are designed to shatter upon impact, arcing electricity between the fragments and flash-converting them to plasma. The gun's punishing, automatic blasts impact with the heat of a cutting torch.

Keep in mind, there's an analgous weapon to a cutting torch in Burnaboyz' melee attacks (at least in older editions), which can count as power weapons.

Geth plasma weapons would get through Power Armor quickly... but not necessarily get through ME3 armor, which has superior materials and design.

Uhhh... that's a pretty big leap in logic to equate Spitefires to power weapons just because the former is equivalent to a cutting torch and the burna weapon can be used as one. That's like saying a cutting torch you can get off the shelf today could cut through power armor because Burna Boyz weapons can be used as cutting torches and count as power weapons.

Also:
Geth SMG:
causes massive trauma to unarmored targets

Imperial Plasma Gun
upon impact with the target detonates with the power of a small sun.

That may be an embelishment but Imperial Plasma guns are much more powerful than Geth plasma weapons. A Guardsman could easily cut down a Krogan Battlemaster if he were armed with a Plasma Gun.

Or hell, anything higher than a Lasgun would do it given that your typical ME gun is of equivalent or lesser strength to one. Meltaguns would be especially helpful in this regard since Kinetic barriers do not stop heat.

 Melissia wrote:
We're comparing a fething video game series to a written lore based series. Can you seriously not comprehend why I'm using the video game itself in order to talk about the video game?

Are you REALLY that dense? Of COURSE we talk about the video game when we talk about the video game.

There is no need to get so upset. There's ME books. Use that and cutscenes for lore.

But sure. I will play along. Here goes.

As said, in ME1 before you face the Thorian, you fight unarmored civilians, who do not seem to be scythed down all that easily by ME's allegedly super-deadly weapons, if they are indeed as extremely powerful as you argue. Seems like perfect evidence that their super-deadliness isn't so deadly after all.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Plasma is NOT plasma. The material heated and the degree it is heated to means it has wildly varying effects.

As I have stated previously, plasma, when created by a readily-available, such as Hydrogen, is, at minimum, 100k degrees Kelvin. That is more than 30x the melting point of Tungsten (metal with the highest melting, that we know of).

I have a plasma TV in my house and I am fairly sure it is not 100k kelvin.

Neon signs, as well.

As far as I know, the type of plasma is not explicitly stated in ME. Which materials are 'readily available' has no relevance in a sci-fi setting, especially given that the Geth come from another planet.

Does the geth plasma weapons have more hitting power than a plasma TV? Aye. When you shoot a human in the head with it, they usually take a lot of damage, and sometimes even die in one shot.

Are they as lethal as the 'kill you and the tank you are sitting in' 40k plasma? Not really.

Even in ME3, most of the weapons are not scything down unarmored, or lightly-armored, civilians in the various places you may decide to pull your weapon out and start shooting.

In ME1 you can one-shot some corporate bureaucrat in a bad jumpsuit, sure, but you don't instagib him or anything (and there's no pass-through of the round into the woman behind him), even at point-blank range.

Wait, your shot doesn't even punch through the body?

That's fairly low-powered, extremely so in this context!

 Psienesis wrote:
Even in ME3, most of the weapons are not scything down unarmored, or lightly-armored, civilians in the various places you may decide to pull your weapon out and start shooting.

In ME1 you can one-shot some corporate bureaucrat in a bad jumpsuit, sure, but you don't instagib him or anything (and there's no pass-through of the round into the woman behind him), even at point-blank range.

Not to mention that you can one-shot a human in reality with a firearm. You won't get back up if you take a 7.62x39mm to the face.

It also fits with the game devs really screwing up the lethality of their mass effect field firearms. The problem is that a grain of sand just has too little mass to do much even when accelerated at high speeds- their advantage is their extremely large magazines. For a game with some proper railgun firearms, look no further than Section 8. Now those are some real Space Marines.

And that large magazine advantage is taken away in ME2/3 with the Thermal clip system. There are weapons that go through Thermal clips like a conventional machine gun goes through rounds. At that point, why not just use regular bullets?

Although, to be fair to the devs the codex states that guns use ME fields to give their rounds more mass to make them more powerful.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have a plasma TV in my house and I am fairly sure it is not 100k kelvin.

Your plasma TV screen doesn't fething burn with the heat of a cutting torch. Use some common fething sense man.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have a plasma TV in my house and I am fairly sure it is not 100k kelvin.

Your plasma TV screen doesn't fething burn with the fething heat of a fething cutting torch. Use some common fething sense man.

And your post is still worthless until you give us the actual stats for their plasma. "It's plasma" tells us nothing. Again, at what temperature does it burn at? What is the level of energy it delivers upon impact?

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have a plasma TV in my house and I am fairly sure it is not 100k kelvin.

Your plasma TV screen doesn't fething burn with the fething heat of a fething cutting torch. Use some common fething sense man.

And your post is still worthless until you give us the actual stats for their plasma. "It's plasma" tells us nothing.

An acetylene/oxygen cutting torch burns at about 3,500 °C. Since they are described as cutting through armor and bodies with "the heat of a cutting torch", let's use that stat.

And you would know this is you had actually been reading my posts.

Cutting torches range from 4-6k degrees Fahrenheit too. Soo... not quite hitting the 179k Fahrenheit mark there.

Which, given that burnaboyz literally just turn the nozzle on their flamethrowers to get a cutting torch when swapping them to the power weapon effect, mean that this is hot enough to cut through power armor.

But not hot enough to cut through ME3 armor.

It's funny how everyone is suddenly in denial any time GW writes something stupid that can't be used to make Space Marines look more mary sue.

Imperial Plasma Guns are describing as firing with the power of a small star. Kinda vague as stars have varying temperatures depending on the layer but I would guess they probably meant the part of the star that undergoes fusion.

So, 10^5 K is what were are looking at for a Imperial Plasma Gun.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Imperial Plasma Guns are describing as firing with the power of a small star. Kinda vague as stars have varying temperatures depending on the layer but I would guess they probably meant the part of the star that undergoes fusion.

So, 10^5 K is what were are looking at for a Imperial Plasma Gun.

As an amusing aside note (which isn't applicable here, as the astartes isn't described as wearing it anyway), terminator armor was designed as being developed from armor that was supposed to be able to be operated inside of plasma power generators, but can still be far more easily penetrated by imperial plasma guns. Kind of defeats the purpose of the armor but meh, GW is inconsistent.

Imperial Plasma Guns vs Geth Plasma isn't here nor there, though. The Spess Muhreen isn't armed with one nor is the Krogan.

The question is whether or not a Bolter is more powerful than, say, a typical Mass Effect sidearm or rifle. In the cutscenes for the ME series unarmored folks have been shown several times to be gunned down by rifles/pistols and generally they hit with the power of a 21st century lfirearm. A Boltgun would turn the same target into a fine red mist when it hits. From this we can infer that a Bolter is much more powerful and thus give the advantage to the Space Marine when it comes to his weapon.

Looking at this objectively, the Space Marine Veteran would win.

He has the distinct advantage of not being in Mass Effect 3.

 Melissia wrote:
Which, given that burnaboyz literally just turn the nozzle on their flamethrowers to get a cutting torch when swapping them to the power weapon effect, mean that this is hot enough to cut through power armor.

But not hot enough to cut through ME3 armor.

It's funny how everyone is suddenly in denial any time GW writes something stupid that can't be used to make Space Marines look more mary sue.

Because Mary Suing up ME is not justified either.

Orks use promethium or squig oil as fuel, both of which have unknown properties compared to the cutting torches of today, so it is highly dubious that ME sought to compare to them. In addition, them ignoring power armor is entirely a game mechanic ascribed to them by the arbitrary AP3 value which may as well be due to GW's haphazard attempts at game balance.

Ok objectively speaking.

Without going in to too much detail of what's happening, suffice to say when creating the stats for the krogan, we had access to a lot of information that did not make it to the video game itself, physically krogan are on par with space marines, but lack maneuverability, we estimated an adult krogan at 5-600lbs before armour, we tried to account for the hostile nature of the home world tuchankas high gravity combined with the extremely fast nature of their healing ability also, this would mean they could put on muscle mass at an incredible rate by human standards, all of this leads us to believe that an adult krogan would have a s value of 4 at the very least, 6 at the very most.

This makes them roughly equivalent in strength to an astartes.

Toughness wise we looked at the natural healing abilities of a krogan warrior, combined with the rather effective powered armour they utilise, so we estimated a 40k equivalent of t3 at a minimum, 5 at a maximum with fnp 6+.

Initiative would be 2 min, 3 max.

Weapon skill and ballistic skill are hard ones to pin down, but we agreed on a stat of 3 min 4 max for ballistics, weapon skill was 3 min. 5 max.

Hope that helps.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Imperial Plasma Guns vs Geth Plasma isn't here nor there, though. The Spess Muhreen isn't armed with one nor is the Krogan.

This is true. Krogans are more likely to be armed with either a Claymore or the Spike Thrower. Either of which is more than enough to turn a human in to gore-- and properly modded will destroy enemies who are far tougher than humans in a single blast (they're both seriously fething overpowered shotguns).

However, you're missing the point; I was actually comparing the various armors ME3 to Astartes Powered Armor. I believe that the armors of ME3 are actually quite a bit better than many in this thread give them credit for, and used the effects of plasma weaponry as a comparison to prove that point. That said, when you compare plasma weapons in ME3 with that of the Space Marine video game, they're not actually all that different in effects on the enemies they're targeting-- so if you're willing to use the Space Marine game as a source, then I'd say powered armor and ME3 armor are fairly similar in terms of protective value, with ME3 focusing more on stronger shields and PA focusing more on stronger armor.

Though that said, both the ME3 shields/barriers and Imperial shield technology are capable of mitigating the damage from plasma.

Yet again, there is no evidence that ME plasma = 40k plasma.

The effectiveness (or lack of) armor in ME3 is an interesting topic, but moot here as the Krogan isn't wearing any in our provided test conditions.

 Melissia wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Imperial Plasma Guns vs Geth Plasma isn't here nor there, though. The Spess Muhreen isn't armed with one nor is the Krogan.

This is true. Krogans are more likely to be armed with either a Claymore or the Spike Thrower. Either of which is more than enough to turn a human in to gore-- and properly modded will destroy enemies who are far tougher than humans in a single blast (they're both seriously fething overpowered shotguns).

However, you're missing the point; I was actually comparing the various armors ME3 to Astartes Powered Armor. I believe that the armors of ME3 are actually quite a bit better than many in this thread give them credit for, and used the effects of plasma weaponry as a comparison to prove that point. That said, when you compare plasma weapons in ME3 with that of the Space Marine video game, they're not actually all that different in effects on the enemies they're targeting-- so if you're willing to use the Space Marine game as a source, then I'd say powered armor and ME3 armor are fairly similar in terms of protective value, with ME3 focusing more on stronger shields and PA focusing more on stronger armor.

Though that said, both the ME3 shields/barriers and Imperial shield technology are capable of mitigating the damage from plasma.

Yeah, but ME small arms have no issue getting through that armor and they aren't much more powerful than something you could get from your local gunshop. Astartes power armor can reliably stop stubber fire so I don't think they are equivalent. In game terms, I would ME armor as 4+/5++.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Imperial Plasma Guns vs Geth Plasma isn't here nor there, though. The Spess Muhreen isn't armed with one nor is the Krogan.

This is true. Krogans are more likely to be armed with either a Claymore or the Spike Thrower. Either of which is more than enough to turn a human in to gore-- and properly modded will destroy enemies who are far tougher than humans in a single blast (they're both seriously fething overpowered shotguns).

However, you're missing the point; I was actually comparing the various armors ME3 to Astartes Powered Armor. I believe that the armors of ME3 are actually quite a bit better than many in this thread give them credit for, and used the effects of plasma weaponry as a comparison to prove that point. That said, when you compare plasma weapons in ME3 with that of the Space Marine video game, they're not actually all that different in effects on the enemies they're targeting-- so if you're willing to use the Space Marine game as a source, then I'd say powered armor and ME3 armor are fairly similar in terms of protective value, with ME3 focusing more on stronger shields and PA focusing more on stronger armor.

Though that said, both the ME3 shields/barriers and Imperial shield technology are capable of mitigating the damage from plasma.

Yeah, but ME small arms have no issue getting through that armor and they aren't much more powerful than something you could get from your local gunshop. Astartes power armor can reliably stop stubber fire so I don't think they are equivalent. In game terms, I would ME armor as 4+/5++.

ME shields absorb some damage and then go down. They are not comparable to an invulnerable save, which is unreliable but constant.

It'd be more like 1/3 extra wound.

...Why are we using 40k's insane ruleset now again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The effectiveness (or lack of) armor in ME3 is an interesting topic, but moot here as the Krogan isn't wearing any in our provided test conditions.

Huh, you're right. Can't believe I didn't notice.

He dies even faster, then.

I was just trying to provide some point of comparison. ME armor is roughly somewhere between carapace and flak armor with a bonus from kinetic barriers.

Huh, I didn't notice that the Krogan was unarmored. Two bolt shells to the stomach and claim glory for the Emperor!

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Yeah, but ME small arms have no issue getting through that armor and they aren't much more powerful than something you could get from your local gunshop. Astartes power armor can reliably stop stubber fire so I don't think they are equivalent. In game terms, I would ME armor as 4+/5++.

That depends on the needs of the story, and which faction in ME3 (again, I'm using ME3 because it's the most advanced technologically, and the one whose equipment we have the most information about) you're shooting at. Shepard's heavily modified pistol can one-hit kill a veteran Krogan Battlemaster when the plot calls for it-- but at the same time, Ciaphas Cain can outfight a Khorne Berserker when the plot calls for it. Both Ciaphas Cain and Jane Shepard are heroes of legend, so it's not necessarily that accurate to rely upon their deeds.

Meanwhile, in actual gameplay from ME3, a charging and blood-raging Krogan is nigh-unstoppable, barring a few enemies that would be classified as monstrous creatures being able to one-hit kill any player class via a grab move (with the sole exception of the Geth Juggernaut, which would have the equivalent of T6, being tougher than the Krogans). And Battlemasters in particular are quite capable of maintaining their assault in order to maintain the effects of their blood rage, with the power Biotic Charge-- which not only brings them almost instantly in front of the target (sending lighter enemies flying and stunning more massive enemies, even monstrous creature equivalents!), it also replenishes the Krogan's shields in the process. Shields that, I should remind you, are some of the heaviest in the setting, alongside the Krogans' heavier armor and tougher biology.

Krogans in gameplay can take numerous hits from normal arms without caring, and can rush through a barrage of heavier hits without going down. Commander Shepard is capable of taking them down quickly, but Commander Shepard is an anomaly, not the norm-- she can take just about any target down quickly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I was just trying to provide some point of comparison. ME armor is roughly somewhere between carapace and flak armor with a bonus from kinetic barriers.

Huh, I didn't notice that the Krogan was unarmored. Two bolt shells to the stomach and claim glory for the Emperor!

I assumed the OP posted that out of ignorance, because Krogan Battlemasters don't actually use biotic hammers. That's the Krogan Warlord, a particular type of Battlemaster that is the Krogan equivalent of an assault terminator, a larger, older, and more experienced Battlemaster with superior protection and a giant hammer capable of crushing a human in to paste... and that's before you apply biotic powers to it.

Comparing 2 similar fictional characters from different settings is always going to be a lesson in frustration.

Whatever point you wish to put across, it is practically impossible to prove it due to the different materials/physics/species/weapons in each setting.

Many said factors have conflicting information in their own lore, before people even try to use it as ammunition in their argument. To sum up what we know:

Is a space marine stronger than a krogan? Who knows? Have they ever had an arm wrestle? Both are larger, stronger and more durable than a normal human.
Both have redundant organs and an ability to survive in harsh environments.
Space marines most likely have better physical armour, krogan have personal shields and a naturally armoured body. Which is better - again who knows, pure speculation.
Who has better weapons? The bolter is better than most the standard armaments in mass effect, then again, giant meter long flechettes fired from a cannon not really 'standard'.
Space marines might be faster than a krogan.......but the krogan can use biotic powers. Can Space marines ignore this through force of will alone? Again, cross setting science has no facts.

All this said, in my own opinion a standard krogan would be more dangerous for a marine to face than a normal ork. A krogan battlemaster - who would have decades of experience and have collected some of the best gear around, would be a serious threat and would take real effort to take down. I believe it would really depend on the individuals involved, as both seem relatively well matched.

Astartes power armor can reliably stop stubber fire so I don't think they are equivalent.

Mass effect shields can be said to do the same thing. Shoot enough bullets at them and eventually they will fail, but then again so will armour. Shields recharge in a matter of seconds or minute however, armour does not.

The personal Kinetic Barriers drop after, like, 2 hits.

Its not even just Commander Shhepard that was able to do it. His companions and Thane's son was able to gun down fully armored Krogans with their handguns. Unless Shepard somehow has a magic juice that he/she injects into his/her guns that indicates that they aren't particularly hard to kill storywise and ME armor isn't that durable

As for your second point gameplay often makes enemies much tougher than they are in cutscenes. Jack was able to destroy two YMIR mechs by herself in a cutscene but in gameplay she is easily cut down by them. Thane was able to shoot an Eclipse commando once with a regular handgun and kill her but they take a ton more shots gameplay wise to kill. I prefer to go with cutscenes as using gameplay abilities as evidence is problematic at best. Gameplay is balanced to make for a enjoyable, challenging experience. ME wouldnt be fun to play if enemies went down in a few hits from your pistol and your companions were able to one shot mini-boss enemies.

Yeah. They always drop incredibly quickly.

There's a reason modern ME games are cover-based shooters, and Space Marine is not!

 Psienesis wrote:
The personal Kinetic Barriers drop after, like, 2 hits.

That depends on a great many variables, including the quantity and quality of kinetic barrier emitters (Krogan armor is depicted as having at least twice as many as elite human soldiers, and veteran Battlemasters have armor with particularly high-quality emitters), the nature of the weapon hitting it (most weapons will NOT bring down shields in two hits unless you're on a higher difficulty, which I do not consider canon), and how the particular soldier has modded their emitters (modifying equipment was extremely common in the Mass Effect universe, with numerous lore entries describing various ways that soldiers modified their equipment).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
As for your second point gameplay often makes enemies much tougher than they are in cutscenes.

Which is kind of the point I was making. Cutscenes are unusual events that do not follow the normal rules of the setting. Therefor, I don't use them, unless you want me to also use examples like Ciaphas Cain or Gaunt's Ghosts. Rather, I am using the ME3 multiplayer as a reference, preferably Silver difficulty, as Bronze is too easy to be canon and Gold and Platinum are unrealistic even within the setting.