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Price increases for pretty much everything but guardians, i like that an eldar warrior or construct can be devastating, but they ARE a dieing race and you should feel limited in numbers

If there was no 6 result on all the Ranged D, then I think it'd fine.

Scat bikes are annoying, but they rarely survive the battle. So they're fine.

Just make Eldar Jetbikes lose the Relentless USR and we're off to a good start.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament results say it's already balanced.

No. If you actually played at tournament top tables you wouldn't even try saying this.

Eldar are the ONLY army that can roll up to the top tables and have a chance at the gold based solely on the quality of their unit rules. IE they can just take a CAD and do great. Although eldar do currently have the disadvantage that you CANNOT surprise ANYONE. Literally everyone intent on going for a high placement at an event knows exactly what all your eldar models do and has some plan to attempt to deal with them.

EVERY other army needs a formation bonus or broken mechanics to compete with them. Gladius, war convo, decurion, ravenwing formations and reroll jink, firebase cadre, flyrant "hard to hit" spam, daemon summoning and 2++ rerolls, psychic powers like invis...

A lot of the play-at-home-and-look-at-tournament-results crowd mistakenly believe that only the top list is worthwhile. Actual experience at the top of tournaments has told me that the last couple rounds are super close matches and can usually be decided by a roll or two like who got first turn choice and if the game ends turn 5. Really the top 1/3 of lists in any given event are good enough to win it all if the heavy dice fall the right way and they play it right. If you want to see the power lists that are good enough to win, that entire section of the rankings is made up of them. (As an anecdotal, after winning 1st at a 2 day GT, I came home with my buddy who was ranked way down in 28th, and we played our tourney armies against each other. He beat me 7-5 and was 4 scouts away from tabling me.)

On topic with the eldar changes, fix point costs, exarchs really didn't need 2 wounds, or every sergeant-upgrade should get them, and I honestly think str D has too much of a meta-effect in that it super-kills high-point heavy armor like monoliths, russes, and land raiders from even attempting to show up at a TAC multi-round event. I'd like to see those vehicles return at least to playability, but the D is so effective against them that if you run across it, you're starting the game at a crippling disadvantage. Wraith weapons were fine in 6e. People still brought them, at least they did if they weren't running "seers and serpents all day e'rry day." They didn't need to be turned up to 11. I like the "honored dead" rule from above, stopping the eldar from entrusting their valuable wraiths to a crazy dark eldar character. Fire dragons don't need +1 to pen chart, again killing armor so bad that they effectively knock it out of your legitimate list choices. Bikes don't need to be troops. Even without the lasers, they get taken in the ITC meta because they're sneaky obsec units that can jump the length of the table instantly. They would still be auto take with one laser per squad. Leave them their heavies and make them a fast/heavy choice.

Here's my input for balancing Eldar:

Distortion weapons go back to 6th edition rules: No D, 6 to-wound is instant death, 6 to-pen is auto penetrating hit.

Wraithknight stays the same cost, goes back to a Monstrous Creature. Is still a Lord of War. Upgrades cost the same as in 6th edition codex, Ghostglaive is AP1 Master-Crafted and gives +1 attack.

Windriders cost 27 points base. 1 in 3 may take a Shuriken Cannon for 10 points, Scatter Laser for 15 points.

Warp Spiders cost 22 points base.

Exarch upgrade costs 20 points.

Everything else stays exactly the same, as the above are the only really OP things in the Eldar codex.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament results say it's already balanced.

No. If you actually played at tournament top tables you wouldn't even try saying this.

Eldar are the ONLY army that can roll up to the top tables and have a chance at the gold based solely on the quality of their unit rules. IE they can just take a CAD and do great. Although eldar do currently have the disadvantage that you CANNOT surprise ANYONE. Literally everyone intent on going for a high placement at an event knows exactly what all your eldar models do and has some plan to attempt to deal with them.

EVERY other army needs a formation bonus or broken mechanics to compete with them. Gladius, war convo, decurion, ravenwing formations and reroll jink, firebase cadre, flyrant "hard to hit" spam, daemon summoning and 2++ rerolls, psychic powers like invis...

A lot of the play-at-home-and-look-at-tournament-results crowd mistakenly believe that only the top list is worthwhile. Actual experience at the top of tournaments has told me that the last couple rounds are super close matches and can usually be decided by a roll or two like who got first turn choice and if the game ends turn 5. Really the top 1/3 of lists in any given event are good enough to win it all if the heavy dice fall the right way and they play it right. If you want to see the power lists that are good enough to win, that entire section of the rankings is made up of them. (As an anecdotal, after winning 1st at a 2 day GT, I came home with my buddy who was ranked way down in 28th, and we played our tourney armies against each other. He beat me 7-5 and was 4 scouts away from tabling me.)

On topic with the eldar changes, fix point costs, exarchs really didn't need 2 wounds, or every sergeant-upgrade should get them, and I honestly think str D has too much of a meta-effect in that it super-kills high-point heavy armor like monoliths, russes, and land raiders from even attempting to show up at a TAC multi-round event. I'd like to see those vehicles return at least to playability, but the D is so effective against them that if you run across it, you're starting the game at a crippling disadvantage. Wraith weapons were fine in 6e. People still brought them, at least they did if they weren't running "seers and serpents all day e'rry day." They didn't need to be turned up to 11. I like the "honored dead" rule from above, stopping the eldar from entrusting their valuable wraiths to a crazy dark eldar character. Fire dragons don't need +1 to pen chart, again killing armor so bad that they effectively knock it out of your legitimate list choices. Bikes don't need to be troops. Even without the lasers, they get taken in the ITC meta because they're sneaky obsec units that can jump the length of the table instantly. They would still be auto take with one laser per squad. Leave them their heavies and make them a fast/heavy choice.

I feel like eldar need a bit of a nurff, but along those lines necrons and marines also need a bit of a tone down, dicurion is ridiculous and grav is over powered in cents

 Kanluwen wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
But their maximum threat range is 18" and you must purchase 3 squads of them minimum in that formation.

Oh what a burden! Three squads of Wraithguard, with a Wraithseer giving a bonus, and a Wraithknight as part of the formation.

The only thing that is a "but" in that formation is the Wraithlord, and that's because Wraithlords are relatively pathetic compared to Wraithguard since Wraithguard get access to Strength D but Wraithlords don't.

Oh, my bad. I thought this was a "balancing eldar" thread, not a "cry about eldar" thread.

The wraithguard are fine, formations bonus for that particular formation is fine, the wraithknight at 395 points is where the only real change needs to take place.

Dman137 wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament results say it's already balanced.

No. If you actually played at tournament top tables you wouldn't even try saying this.

Eldar are the ONLY army that can roll up to the top tables and have a chance at the gold based solely on the quality of their unit rules. IE they can just take a CAD and do great. Although eldar do currently have the disadvantage that you CANNOT surprise ANYONE. Literally everyone intent on going for a high placement at an event knows exactly what all your eldar models do and has some plan to attempt to deal with them.

EVERY other army needs a formation bonus or broken mechanics to compete with them. Gladius, war convo, decurion, ravenwing formations and reroll jink, firebase cadre, flyrant "hard to hit" spam, daemon summoning and 2++ rerolls, psychic powers like invis...

A lot of the play-at-home-and-look-at-tournament-results crowd mistakenly believe that only the top list is worthwhile. Actual experience at the top of tournaments has told me that the last couple rounds are super close matches and can usually be decided by a roll or two like who got first turn choice and if the game ends turn 5. Really the top 1/3 of lists in any given event are good enough to win it all if the heavy dice fall the right way and they play it right. If you want to see the power lists that are good enough to win, that entire section of the rankings is made up of them. (As an anecdotal, after winning 1st at a 2 day GT, I came home with my buddy who was ranked way down in 28th, and we played our tourney armies against each other. He beat me 7-5 and was 4 scouts away from tabling me.)

On topic with the eldar changes, fix point costs, exarchs really didn't need 2 wounds, or every sergeant-upgrade should get them, and I honestly think str D has too much of a meta-effect in that it super-kills high-point heavy armor like monoliths, russes, and land raiders from even attempting to show up at a TAC multi-round event. I'd like to see those vehicles return at least to playability, but the D is so effective against them that if you run across it, you're starting the game at a crippling disadvantage. Wraith weapons were fine in 6e. People still brought them, at least they did if they weren't running "seers and serpents all day e'rry day." They didn't need to be turned up to 11. I like the "honored dead" rule from above, stopping the eldar from entrusting their valuable wraiths to a crazy dark eldar character. Fire dragons don't need +1 to pen chart, again killing armor so bad that they effectively knock it out of your legitimate list choices. Bikes don't need to be troops. Even without the lasers, they get taken in the ITC meta because they're sneaky obsec units that can jump the length of the table instantly. They would still be auto take with one laser per squad. Leave them their heavies and make them a fast/heavy choice.

I feel like eldar need a bit of a nurff, but along those lines necrons and marines also need a bit of a tone down, dicurion is ridiculous and grav is over powered in cents

Well yes. It's kind of like a mexican standoff. If we could get a few eldar things lowered, we could then look at diminishing the others. Like I said though, those silly-good formations are what is keeping like 5 different codices afloat against the space elves at the competitive level. As long as the eldar are broken, they need to stick around too.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament results say it's already balanced.

That will happen when its only eldar being played.

increasing the wraith knight and 1 per 3 specials on bikes seem the basic and primary complaint of eldar right now.

Seems reasonable.

No need for "one weapon in three" for bikes. the fact i has been that way doesnt mean it has to stay.

What i NEEDS is to be a freaking 5+, because no other bike in the game magically gives a +2 bonus armor.

 BoomWolf wrote:
No need for "one weapon in three" for bikes. the fact i has been that way doesnt mean it has to stay.

What i NEEDS is to be a freaking 5+, because no other bike in the game magically gives a +2 bonus armor.

Insufficient. No scatterlasers on bikes. Period. They already can spam that weapon enough.

It's not the Eldar codex itself but I find it surprising Craftworld Eldar and DE are not Allies of Convience.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament results say it's already balanced.

No. If you actually played at tournament top tables you wouldn't even try saying this.

If you actually looked at the results outside of the tournaments you yourself have been in, you wouldn't be saying that. The statistics exist.

 BoomWolf wrote:
No need for "one weapon in three" for bikes. the fact i has been that way doesnt mean it has to stay.

What i NEEDS is to be a freaking 5+, because no other bike in the game magically gives a +2 bonus armor.

Ya know

I agree. it never made sense to me how much there bikes give.

It's a legacy effect from Rogue Trader.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Eldar and DE should not be Battle Brothers. If IG and CSM aren't BBs for fluff reasons (i.e., traitor guard), I'm really not sure why Eldar and DE should be BBs, plus it would cut down on a lot of the problem people have with D-scythes.

IG and CSM aren't Battle Brothers because IG != Traitor Guard.
If they release a book called "Traitor Guard", I can basically guarantee you they would be Battle Brothers with CSM but Come the Apocalypse with the Imperium.

Eldar and Dark Eldar can(and it's been shown a lot more recently than it was before) and do put aside their differences in the name of a greater cause.



In any regards, I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it again:
Remove Dedicated Transport options from Fast Attack and you fix basically all of the issues stemming from Battle Brother level alliances.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament results say it's already balanced.

No. If you actually played at tournament top tables you wouldn't even try saying this.

If you actually looked at the results outside of the tournaments you yourself have been in, you wouldn't be saying that. The statistics exist.

You apparently didn't read the part where I said that any army in the top 1/3 could easily have won in a slightly shifted universe where a few dice fell a bit different or a couple different decisions were made. Are you trying to tell me eldar don't have a tournament presence within the top 1/3 rankings?

Imperial Armour 13 has a Renegades and Heretics army list that basically is traitor guard. That book is pure win, btw.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Are you trying to tell me eldar don't have a tournament presence within the top 1/3 rankings?

Are you trying to tell us they have a disproportionate representation there?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Are you trying to tell me eldar don't have a tournament presence within the top 1/3 rankings?

Are you trying to tell us they have a disproportionate representation there?

Yes? Went back to take a quick glance at the last 13 ITC event results of at least 16 players or more. Eldar are in the top third in every single one, (and several times, it's multiple eldar filling those ranks,) and 1st place in about of third of them.

People KNOW Eldar are doing well, that's why the top lists are designed with them in mind. Because they KNOW that if they aim at the top tables, they WILL run into eldar. I'm not sure why you think they don't have a strong presence. Maybe you can throw out some data that you're sitting on that the rest of us don't know about?

Nerf bikes and Wraithknight. A tiny bit of their transport shenanigans.

 Gamgee wrote:
Nerf bikes and Wraithknight. A tiny bit of their transport shenanigans.

Yes

yes

What transport shenanigans?

 Desubot wrote:
What transport shenanigans?

Yeah I'd say some issues stem more from HQs, like Webway D-Flamers or that absurd rerollable nonsense when Vect was around.

DE could get a lot of their flavor back if you don't need to worry about trying to block combo shenanigans with Eldar.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Eldar and Dark Eldar can(and it's been shown a lot more recently than it was before) and do put aside their differences in the name of a greater cause.

To me Battle Brothers means you live together, work together, die together, and would go out for a beer if you were out of the grimdark setting. Sisters, Tempestus and Inquisition used to even share a codex. Don't DE kill Eldar for fun or something?

"Putting your differences aside in the name of a greater cause" seems more a matter of convience, or necessity. But I've never seen it in the fluff, so I don't really know where your reference comes from.

Ah Allying shenanigans which is another kettle of fish :/

I do find it humorous when IoM players complain about ally shenanigans

SGTPozy wrote:
I do find it humorous when IoM players complain about ally shenanigans

i like how you are assuming that we are complain about only eldar allying.

Personally i dont think ANY allying should be a thing.

with the exception of a few special add ons for everyone. like inqusition, assassins, harliquins, and other supplements. not full on main faction action.

Also hate the battle brothers best friends forever. its a bad thing to be able to share transports and stuff. especially humans in drop pods which should kill them off instantly.

"i like how you are assuming that we are complain about only eldar allying."

I'm not making that assumption, you're just assuming that I'm making that assumption.
It's just like how Eldar players can't really complain about the Riptide or Dreadknight when their (ex)MC is vastly superior.

I see a lot of suggestions, but let's be real here. There's not all that much in the Eldar codex that's actually broken - basically just two or three things. The rest of it is in line with the power creep of current codices. If they were to nerf Eldar in the ways some people here are suggesting - I see suggestions ranging from increasing Jetbike costs to 27 points, to making the Scorpion's Claw AP3, to bringing Exarchs back to 1 wound - all the other codices will have to be brought in line too. Can you honestly tell me that Decurion or Cent-stars or Skyhammer is worse?

Here's what I'd do, if it were just about purely balancing Eldar. WK with the D's go up to 395 points, maybe 10 points less if running the Suncannon variant. Jetbikes revert back to 1 in 3, with +15 points per scatter laser and +10 for shuriken cannons. Base cost of Wraithguard up to 50 points. That's it. People aren't afraid of Striking Scorpions or Howling Banshees or War Walkers. Good units, but hardly game-breaking. I think a lot of the complaints about the Eldar is that you can't do much to stop the rain of firepower - If Howling Banshees got 4 attacks base, I think people would prefer that to 27 point scatterbikes any day.

Just on a whole, if I had more artistic licence with the codex I'd probably change a whole lot. Bring Guardians back to WS3 BS3, with a small drop in points and +1 BS for weapons platforms, boost them to BS4 if they're in a formation (like Ulthwe Black Guardians). Making Shining Spears AP2 and give them back Hit and Run. AP3 Shuriken Weapons on a 6, with only Dire Avengers getting the AP2 variant. Farseer should probably get a small points bump, maybe by 10 or 15 points. Fire Prisms get a TL shot if they link. All Eldar vehicles go back to BS3, with the option of an upgrade that gives them BS4 (add it on to Crystal Targeting Matrix maybe). Give Howling Banshees something else, they're just so lacklustre - maybe a flat initiative penalty when fighting them (-2 or something). Make Fire Dragons 24 points and give them FNP against vehicle explosions. Just little things here and there to make some things more attractive and some other things less.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
What transport shenanigans?

Yeah I'd say some issues stem more from HQs, like Webway D-Flamers or that absurd rerollable nonsense when Vect was around.

DE could get a lot of their flavor back if you don't need to worry about trying to block combo shenanigans with Eldar.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Eldar and Dark Eldar can(and it's been shown a lot more recently than it was before) and do put aside their differences in the name of a greater cause.

To me Battle Brothers means you live together, work together, die together, and would go out for a beer if you were out of the grimdark setting. Sisters, Tempestus and Inquisition used to even share a codex. Don't DE kill Eldar for fun or something?

Not that I've seen recently.

"Putting your differences aside in the name of a greater cause" seems more a matter of convience, or necessity. But I've never seen it in the fluff, so I don't really know where your reference comes from.

Really?

The Valedor War Zone book and "Path of the Eldar" both have instances of Dark Eldar and Eldar working together pretty well.

"Path of the Eldar" even has the main character in "Path of the Outcast" joining a Dark Eldar pirate vessel's crew.

As I recall one of the Scorpions in Path of the Warrior was an ex-Incubii as well.