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This thread had been cut a lot of slack. Too much slack. Everyone be polite or else.

 Frazzled wrote:
"My world is constantly made a complicated and frustrating place by the attitudes of some cisgender people when it comes to trans rights. "

That screams bigoted statement itself. Unless someone wants to be called "cisgender" you should afford them the same respect you yourself want. Take it from an old breeder. Instead of a PHD on this subject, have you considered getting a real job?

There has to be a term for people who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. You are a man, but trans men are men also. When you want to refer to men who identify with their birth assigned gender, and not the other kinds, what word do you suggest we use? Can you see the problem with one lot being 'real' men or whatever, and then the other lot having to have the extra modifier 'trans'?

And I do have a real job. Its how I live whilst doing eduction.

There has to be a term for people who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. You are a man, but trans men are men also. When you want to refer to men who identify with their birth assigned gender, and not the other kinds, what word do you suggest we use?

How about...just "man," "straight," "normal" "regular Joe" "guy." This desire to cut and sub classify everyone is...lame.

Crystal-Maze wrote:

There has to be a term for people who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.

Yes, "man".

I'm a genius.

If you feel the strong need to further differentiate yourself from normal men, then you should think about what made you want to be more different rather than being the same, but different.

 Frazzled wrote:

There has to be a term for people who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. You are a man, but trans men are men also. When you want to refer to men who identify with their birth assigned gender, and not the other kinds, what word do you suggest we use?

How about...just "man."

Because just 'man' refers to all of the men regardless of what their genitals are. The statement 'the continuing enmity between men and transmen' makes no sense; there needs to be a word to replace the men in there to signify the men who are not transmen.

You are literally the first person I have met who has a problem with 'cis'; even my mother managed it after the second bottle of wine was opened.

 Sigvatr wrote:

Crystal-Maze wrote:

There has to be a term for people who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.

Yes, "man".

I'm a genius.

If you feel the strong need to further differentiate yourself from normal men, then you should think about what made you want to be more different rather than being the same, but different.

Well there was one differentiator: "Manly Man!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
'the continuing enmity between men and transexual men makes no sense"

Bam! done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

even my mother managed it after the second bottle of wine was opened.

Thats what she said!

 Sigvatr wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:
Honestly, gender-neutral bathrooms and changing/locker rooms are probably the best idea. On the other hand, reasonable solutions like this cost money, so roll on the gakky situations!

Just have unisex toilets / locker rooms everywhere. Merge female / male toilets and have one for both genders. Have cabins for people afraid / offended by it.

We got unisex restrooms in our whole company for years, never had any problems with it.

Out of curiosity, how many teenagers work for your company and is your company a public high school?

 Sigvatr wrote:

Crystal-Maze wrote:

There has to be a term for people who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.

Yes, "man".

I'm a genius.

If you feel the strong need to further differentiate yourself from normal men, then you should think about what made you want to be more different rather than being the same, but different.

The reason the term 'transmen' exists is that there are these people who keep trying to discriminate against the transmen, so a term of solidarity is needed. And if the transmen held up placards at protests and parades and suchlike with the phrase "MEN'S RIGHTS MATTER" on them, people might get the wrong end of the stick.

So in this thread we have the Dakka progressive wing arguing that people should grow a thicker skin while the Dakka conservative wing is arguing that more care has to be given to respect people's feelings on the subject.


What's going on with the world?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So in this thread we have the Dakka progressive wing arguing that people should grow a thicker skin while the Dakka conservative wing is arguing that more care has to be given to respect people's feelings on the subject.


What's going on with the world?

Not to mention a topic in OT about transgender people has lasted 17 pages.

Must be the apocalypse

The girls are obviously upset and don't like the idea of a physical male being in their locker room even if he identifies as a she. Girls have a lot of body image issues at that age and are already stressed out enough just dealing with changing in front of other females. I've worked at a women's rehab facility that specialized in eating disorders and in most cases their conditions first began when they were going through puberty and had great difficulties dealing with sharing locker rooms and bathrooms with other female students and it left them traumatized. That's all without dealing with the possible presence of males in those locker rooms.

As males we may not think it's a big deal, "oh they'll need to get over seeing penises, that's just a part of growing up", which incredibly insensitive. Girls who are still in the early stages of discovering their own identity and bodies are often very self conscious and they do not need additional pressures on them. When they are confident and mature enough to explore the male anatomy they should be able to do so at the time of their own choosing and not being subject to it sooner. Additionally there are a lot of women and girls that have endured sexual abuse even at a young age and the presence of a male/penis being forced upon them in a locker room situation where they already feel exposed and vulnerable could have a very traumatic impact. So when people joke "what's the big deal if they see a penis?" they are certainly not looking at things from a females perspective or considering what actual emotional harm it can trigger.

There are a significant number of women and particularly young girls that feel uncomfortable around the male body & penis and would feel threatened by it being in the locker room next to them regardless of if the owner identified as female or not. The male may not have any sexual intention whatsoever but that may not be how the women & girls perceive it. They have every right to a locker room or bath room in which they don't feel threatened in.

I don't feel that it's correct to let one student trample over the privacy rights of hundreds of young girls when he was offered an appropriate gender neutral facility for his needs.

Well said, Stanman. That's probably the most logical and reasonable thing that's been posted in this whole thread.

Crystal-Maze wrote:

 -Shrike- wrote:

Crystal-Maze wrote:
For all of the people suggesting that the gender neutral bathroom would be an acceptable compromise, how on earth would that not be interpreted by the individual in question as a slap in the face, and proof that nobody really believes their identity.

No trans individual I have ever met flaunts their genitalia. Most go to lengths to hide it, because of the whole dysphoria thing.

If you are that worried about your daughters seeing a penis, consider suggesting to them that they do not stare at the transgirl's genitals. Then, if they do have a look, its their problem, not the transgirl's.

If you're replying to me, I was suggesting gender-neutral stuff for everyone, then you don't have to worry about seeing anyone else's stuff, regardless of identity/sexuality.

Naa, not you - it was more Whembly's stance on the matter I was getting at there.

So... ignore the other 200 girls who has concerns?

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Well said, Stanman. That's probably the most logical and reasonable thing that's been posted in this whole thread.

Actually, it is ignorant and sexist. It assumes all women are weak and need to be protected, it assumes all penises rape, it aserts basically all transgender should use the boys room always because a girl with a penis 'scares' girls due to rape and a boy with a vagina 'scares' girls due to body images. It misunderstands privacy rights and claims rights people don't actually have based upon the law and steamrolls the rights people actually do have to get it.

And again, we have ignorantly wrong terms like "physically male" or "biologically male" which discount a whole load of science as well as closes the door on unknowns in medical science along with brain chemistry. If you read a lot of these stories which end up going to court, you find out that often the child had a gender assigned to them at birth and it was the wrong one. ( they had both or not a fully deployed genitals, and a doctor mutilated them to make things easier and the doc chose wrong, the lawsuit heading up the line to the Supreme Court from Minnesota involves a child who was 'assigned' gender... So there is no 'biological' or 'physical' litmus test which can be applied to people obsessed with penises.)

Many of these arguments were used to try to ban gays because of fear of perceived sexual deviants going on rape rampages. Mostly out of people who believe homosexuality is a choice made by a pervert and not born that way.easier to see imaginary rapists trying to rape and peep your weak scared vulnerable daughter when you see transgender as a choice made by perverts as well.

I reject pretty much the entirety of his argument.

FYI: the walk out in this particular case was done originally in Support of the transgender girl using the female locker room. Only after that did some counter protest.

You guys realize that a lot of transgender students are HIPAA info and you as a parent of a child at their school have zero rights or input to know the identity of a transgendered student and zero rights to determine how the school applies the legal law, which if there is discrimination legislature in place means they use the gender-identified bathroom. I bet half of you guys complaining already live in a place where the laws allow transgendered students to use gender identified locker rooms and they are currently using them and no one knows because the kids don't actually mind it, no one is raping or peeping and the school is protecting the transgendered students identity.

NYC schools has gender identity locker rooms. Thousands of kids in NYC seem to get by every day. No one is raping or peeping. No one is wearing wigs to pull 80s style teenage pranks. No people have provided any evidence of harm to anyone. It is like this all over the country in the multiple states with mandatory anti discrimination laws.

"Brain chemistry" has no fething bearing on what the girls see when the trans student drops their pants/shorts/skirts while changing. If they are physically male and have a penis it's what is going to actually be seen, regardless of how they feel or identify.

I am also not saying that females are weak. When you are dealing with pre-teens and young teens that are going through puberty they are all in an awkward phase and typically uncomfortable within their own bodies and uncomfortable around others regardless of physical sex. As adults we tend to be much more comfortable looking at the opposite sex but that's because we are much more sexually mature and forget how we perceived things before or during puberty. As a parent I'd be uncomfortable for a person with male genitals to be in my young teen daughters locker room and I'd be equally uncomfortable if somebody with female genitals and breasts were in my young teen sons locker room.

As I'd said in my previous posts those things are perfectly fine and natural for somebody to be exposed to when they emotionally secure and mature enough to chose seeing them but pre-teens and early teens typically are not at that point yet and should not have to be forced to see or interact with those things until they determine they are ready to.

nkelsch wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Well said, Stanman. That's probably the most logical and reasonable thing that's been posted in this whole thread.

Actually, it is ignorant and sexist. It assumes all women are weak and need to be protected, it assumes all penises rape, it aserts basically all transgender should use the boys room always because a girl with a penis 'scares' girls due to rape and a boy with a vagina 'scares' girls due to body images. It misunderstands privacy rights and claims rights people don't actually have based upon the law and steamrolls the rights people actually do have to get it.

And again, we have ignorantly wrong terms like "physically male" or "biologically male" which discount a whole load of science as well as closes the door on unknowns in medical science along with brain chemistry. If you read a lot of these stories which end up going to court, you find out that often the child had a gender assigned to them at birth and it was the wrong one. ( they had both or not a fully deployed genitals, and a doctor mutilated them to make things easier and the doc chose wrong, the lawsuit heading up the line to the Supreme Court from Minnesota involves a child who was 'assigned' gender... So there is no 'biological' or 'physical' litmus test which can be applied to people obsessed with penises.)

Many of these arguments were used to try to ban gays because of fear of perceived sexual deviants going on rape rampages. Mostly out of people who believe homosexuality is a choice made by a pervert and not born that way.easier to see imaginary rapists trying to rape and peep your weak scared vulnerable daughter when you see transgender as a choice made by perverts as well.

I reject pretty much the entirety of his argument.

FYI: the walk out in this particular case was done originally in Support of the transgender girl using the female locker room. Only after that did some counter protest.

You guys realize that a lot of transgender students are HIPAA info and you as a parent of a child at their school have zero rights or input to know the identity of a transgendered student and zero rights to determine how the school applies the legal law, which if there is discrimination legislature in place means they use the gender-identified bathroom. I bet half of you guys complaining already live in a place where the laws allow transgendered students to use gender identified locker rooms and they are currently using them and no one knows because the kids don't actually mind it, no one is raping or peeping and the school is protecting the transgendered students identity.

NYC schools has gender identity locker rooms. Thousands of kids in NYC seem to get by every day. No one is raping or peeping. No one is wearing wigs to pull 80s style teenage pranks. No people have provided any evidence of harm to anyone. It is like this all over the country in the multiple states with mandatory anti discrimination laws.

It is not ignorant or sexist. But thank you for your wrong opinion.

It assumes girls have a comfort zone. It assumes they should be in charge of their comfort zone. It assumes a penis shouldn't be hanging out in a school girl locker room. That's all.

That... seems rather strange, considering how most people appear to raise their children, though it's not entirely wrong.

That is to say, many people will bathe their young children (5 and younger, for example) together, regardless of their gender, but then later separate them because it's "improper" (or whatever other reasons they provide... some of them are... of dubious validity).

As you mentioned issues with body-image... that's a societal problem, not a biological or psychological one (rather, it is a psychological issue caused by social issues). If we did not spend so much time telling girls that they *must* look a certain way or they're not beautiful, and instead promoted healthy living and acceptance of bodies in all shapes and sizes, this problem would disappear inside of 3 generations. Boys, too, though they are not *quite* so inundated with mass media demanding they look and dress a certain way.

We would also have less problems if we disassociated the concept of nudity from sexuality. The two are not synonymous. However, our society was founded by the Puritan Pilgrims, and for some unknown reason we continue to perpetrate their social mores in the most repressed parts of our national psychology.

Somewhat relevant. Isabella Bennet is one third of the singing automaton internet sensations Steam Powered Giraffe. She was born a boy and achieved some internet fame in SPG whilst privately struggling with her gender identity. When she transitioned, her stage persona transitioned, too. Isabella has been quite open about her experiences and there are several interviews for your perusal.

Here she is singing solo about the subject:



And here is some early Steam Powered Giraffe:



It's abundantly clear that many guys ITT are wholly un-educated on this subject. Trans persons are not freaks, accidents or deviants. They are people trying to living their life, just like you and me.

Of course while the Earth was bickering and warring, and quarreling about, well, everything, the giant galactic star goat came and ate it, population and all!

 stanman wrote:
As adults we tend to be much more comfortable looking at the opposite sex but that's because we are much more sexually mature and forget how we perceived things before or during puberty.

We also tend to underestimate the maturity of teens and preteens while talking up our own.

 dogma wrote:

 stanman wrote:
As adults we tend to be much more comfortable looking at the opposite sex but that's because we are much more sexually mature and forget how we perceived things before or during puberty.

We also tend to underestimate the maturity of teens and preteens while talking up our own.

o

Yea, I'll wholeheartedly disagree with that, especially as it pertains to teen body image.

As a barely-still-19YO myself, I'd say it's a mix of both. Teens are immature, but nowhere as immature as many people seem to think. At the very least the people I knew weren't, but then again I am a raving lunatic, so this might be complete nonsense I'm spouting.

EDIT: also, seriously, can the OP please change the "ver" to "Over". It's annoying me so much.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

EDIT: also, seriously, can the OP please change the "ver" to "Over". It's annoying me so much.

He identifies as being anti-grammar. It's his thing. Don't judge!

If you're reading this thread, please read through this post that explains basic trans concepts. It's really good, and it's essential to the discussion.

This should be no surprise, considering what happened earlier in the year:

https://www.yahoo.com/health/woman-barred-from-planet-fitness-gym-after-113265872887.html

But yeah, it is weird to present the need of the transwoman to feel safe as somehow more important than the ciswomen who need to feel safe as well.

 cincydooley wrote:

Yea, I'll wholeheartedly disagree with that, especially as it pertains to teen body image.

I know plenty of adults that have severe issues with body image, sexuality, and taking a mature position on either; often both.

Not only do we need to be polite (which you are all doing better), but we need to consider if a post is worthwhile or spam before posting it. Keep that in mind guys and girls.

I think the best place to look at how to integrate trans into a society would be to look at Samoan society, they even regard there to be 3 genders, although I think we'll need 27 to fit in LGBTWTFOMGBBQ

 VorpalBunny74 wrote:
This should be no surprise, considering what happened earlier in the year:

https://www.yahoo.com/health/woman-barred-from-planet-fitness-gym-after-113265872887.html

But yeah, it is weird to present the need of the transwoman to feel safe as somehow more important than the ciswomen who need to feel safe as well.

I'm not saying I agree with the resolution of the case but there is a general principle to be considered, which is that discriminated against minorities often are less safe than the majority group and therefore they may need to be given special consideration for the sake of social justice.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I'm not saying I agree with the resolution of the case but there is a general principle to be considered, which is that discriminated against minorities often are less safe than the majority group and therefore they may need to be given special consideration for the sake of social justice.

This is just my personal opinion, but I only consider children, the elderly, and the disabled as requiring special consideration and protection. They're the most vulnerable members of society.

('disabled' of course including mental illness)