Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Chongara wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


It's a girls' bathroom because we say it's a girl's bathroom.

Why do we say it is a girls' bathroom? Because it is for girls.

So you are saying its reasonable and expected for a penis to walk into a girls bathroom for all the girls to see?

No, absolutely not. What I am saying is that the reasons why we are against that are due to social prejudices resulting from sexual hangups, not because boys catch cooties from seeing a girl's pubis, or girls get pregnant from seeing a boy's penis.

Well of course not, don't be silly. But what if they touch a towel that was used to dry a penis? That's a one way ticket baby city. It's just a risk you can't take, especially since once one girl gets pregnant they rest are sure to catch it. Once that stuff goes airborne, it just doesn't stop until you've got a whole nursery full of little ones.

The only solution might be to take off and nuke the site from orbit.

It's spelled "babby" and, above, we have an otherwise clear description of how they get formed.

 Chongara wrote:

We all know the word here is being used to mean "To aggressively cause harm" here with the harm is societal and emotional, which is a mostly appropriate application of the word even if it falls outside the usual general usage. Let's not play semantics because we want to spring a "Gotcha!" on it not involving punching anyone in the face.

No gotcha, I just personally don't associate "violence" with non physical harm. I can see why it would be used that way with your explanation.

I would agree that continuously insisting to call a transgender person the wrong pronoun would be likely to cause harm, which is why I said it's extremely wrong and rude.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Chongara wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


It's a girls' bathroom because we say it's a girl's bathroom.

Why do we say it is a girls' bathroom? Because it is for girls.

So you are saying its reasonable and expected for a penis to walk into a girls bathroom for all the girls to see?

No, absolutely not. What I am saying is that the reasons why we are against that are due to social prejudices resulting from sexual hangups, not because boys catch cooties from seeing a girl's pubis, or girls get pregnant from seeing a boy's penis.

Well of course not, don't be silly. But what if they touch a towel that was used to dry a penis? That's a one way ticket baby city. It's just a risk you can't take, especially since once one girl gets pregnant they rest are sure to catch it. Once that stuff goes airborne, it just doesn't stop until you've got a whole nursery full of little ones.

The only solution might be to take off and nuke the site from orbit.

Are you really willing to take the 33% chance it'll just cause send the pregnancy cloud into the jet stream and go global? Can you really stand the the thought of having to put all the poor fathers through hearing the news their daughter is pregnant? That's just the kind of news that ruins your evening ball game, whatever country you're in or whatever sport you may be watching and I'm sure it's the championships a lot of places too. The risk just too big. Also it might kind of effect the girls who get pregnant too, if you wanna dig into the details.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Actually most of these defects have physical traits (with XXX women being the exception), of course some are more severe than others. But the blogger is still very incorrect about chromosomes. A Y is still going to be male, and no Y is still going to be female, no matter the combination. To argue otherwise shows what kind of person this blogger is (a hint, not someone to listen to).

The Intersex Society of North America disagrees with you, as does wikipedia and, apparently, medical science.

Thanks for reading the link, by the way.

As I said there are anomalies as there are with everything.

So now we have genes on the Y that can turn females with XX chromosomes into males and genes on the X that can turn males with XY chromosomes into females… wow! Maleness and femaleness are NOT determined by having an X or a Y, since switching a couple of genes around can turn things upside down.

XX male syndrome occurs when there has been a recombination in the formation of the male gametes, causing the SRY-portion of the Y chromosome to move to the X chromosome. When such an X chromosome contributes to the child, the development will lead to a male, because of the SRY gene.

So in other words, Y is always present in males except an incredibly small minority. But even then the "SRY portion of the Y (see... the Y here) to move to the X chromosome... will lead to a male".

Pretty simple right? Just your article seems to try twist it to make out Y and X means nothing when talking about sex... when in fact it pretty much means everything. XX males still have Y in them.

I read the blog yesterday, slept on it, and then replied today after another painful read.

 Chongara wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


It's a girls' bathroom because we say it's a girl's bathroom.

Why do we say it is a girls' bathroom? Because it is for girls.

So you are saying its reasonable and expected for a penis to walk into a girls bathroom for all the girls to see?

No, absolutely not. What I am saying is that the reasons why we are against that are due to social prejudices resulting from sexual hangups, not because boys catch cooties from seeing a girl's pubis, or girls get pregnant from seeing a boy's penis.

Well of course not, don't be silly. But what if they touch a towel that was used to dry a penis? That's a one way ticket baby city. It's just a risk you can't take, especially since once one girl gets pregnant they rest are sure to catch it. Once that stuff goes airborne, it just doesn't stop until you've got a whole nursery full of little ones.

But i agree Kill. its this way in the US because the US has some strange hangups about sexuality. However it doesn't mean you should take a sledge to the established bathroom system especially such an institutionalized country.
though like my first post i wouldnt mind unisex bathrooms at all. maybe the horrable body image of everyone seeing everything will make people start working out more

 Swastakowey wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Actually most of these defects have physical traits (with XXX women being the exception), of course some are more severe than others. But the blogger is still very incorrect about chromosomes. A Y is still going to be male, and no Y is still going to be female, no matter the combination. To argue otherwise shows what kind of person this blogger is (a hint, not someone to listen to).

The Intersex Society of North America disagrees with you, as does wikipedia and, apparently, medical science.

Thanks for reading the link, by the way.

As I said there are anomalies as there are with everything.

So now we have genes on the Y that can turn females with XX chromosomes into males and genes on the X that can turn males with XY chromosomes into females… wow! Maleness and femaleness are NOT determined by having an X or a Y, since switching a couple of genes around can turn things upside down.

XX male syndrome occurs when there has been a recombination in the formation of the male gametes, causing the SRY-portion of the Y chromosome to move to the X chromosome. When such an X chromosome contributes to the child, the development will lead to a male, because of the SRY gene.

So in other words, Y is always present in males except an incredibly small minority. But even then the "SRY portion of the Y (see... the Y here) to move to the X chromosome... will lead to a male".

Pretty simple right? Just your article seems to try twist it to make out Y and X means nothing when talking about sex... when in fact it pretty much means everything. XX males still have Y in them.

It's not saying they "mean nothing." It's saying that the picture of "women are XX, men are XY" is not actually the biological reality, which is actually much more complicated.

It also seems awfully complicated to check their chromosomes every time you want to adress someone.

Seems easier to just call them what they want to be called.

If they want to be called a dragon I might refuse...

 Chongara wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

When you act like her gender is conditional, what you are saying is the gender of all trans people is conditional on whether you feel they are acting appropriately. That is an act of violence against all trans people and it is not OK.

Extremely rude and wrong, yes, but an act of violence? I am curious as to how?

We all know the word here is being used to mean "To aggressively cause harm" here with the harm is societal and emotional, which is a mostly appropriate application of the word even if it falls outside the usual general usage. Let's not play semantics because we want to spring a "Gotcha!" on it not involving punching anyone in the face.

Just to add, trans people are murdered at a far higher rate than the general population, commit suicide a staggering proportion of the time (like close to 50%), and are at extreme risk of living in poverty. From the best available evidence, this is all caused by prejudice against trans people.

When people invalidate trans people's identities, act like they are just insane and freakish and wrong, hurting them not just emotionally, but socially, creating a culture where they are dismissed and ostracised, they are building the conditions that cause trans people to be murdered, to commit suicide, to be harassed out of their jobs, to not be hired at all.

ETA: I want to add also that almost all the murdered trans people are trans women, and a very disproportionate number of the murdered trans women are people of colour.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
If they want to be called a dragon I might refuse...

I identify as a A-10 warthog and i demand to be acknowledged as such

 d-usa wrote:


You use "her" for the same reason people shouldn't be called bigots, because it's disrespectful and not polite.

Also you use "her" because if you don't you are being disrespectful to every other transgender person reading this thread.

Maybe you can use "her" just so that you can feel like you can be a bigger and better person than the disrespectful penis owner.

Wrong. It's that arrogance that causes a lot of confusion that then leads to anger. If you want to identify as something different than what you are, then YOU are asking a favor FROM others. You ask THEM to behave differently just because YOU want it to be that way. Forcing your decision on others and ignoring their very own judgement just because YOU want it that way is wht's incredibly arrogant and rude here. If he wants to be called a she, then ask people to do so. If they do, great for you, if they don't, it's their decision and you either have to respect it or be hyper hypocrite.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
We don't address people by their sex, we address them by their gender. That's why, for example, I don't need to look in your pants to know what to call you.

Who is "we"? As in you? a group you are part of? or are you trying to claim "we" as society as a whole? Because there's thousands of years of western history that used sex as a basis for addressing people as their gender. (sex=gender). You may disagree with it, but that doesn't invalidate the view of people who see it that way.

How do you determine what to address me as if you don't first make an assumption based on outwardly apparent physical sex?

Clothes don't determine ones gender nor are they always reflective of their physical sex. About the best you can do is take your best guess based on their physical features and toss either a he or she verbage out there and make a correction if the person asks to be addressed otherwise.

Sometimes you just can't tell. ("It's Pat" comes to mind)

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Actually most of these defects have physical traits (with XXX women being the exception), of course some are more severe than others. But the blogger is still very incorrect about chromosomes. A Y is still going to be male, and no Y is still going to be female, no matter the combination. To argue otherwise shows what kind of person this blogger is (a hint, not someone to listen to).

The Intersex Society of North America disagrees with you, as does wikipedia and, apparently, medical science.

Thanks for reading the link, by the way.

As I said there are anomalies as there are with everything.

So now we have genes on the Y that can turn females with XX chromosomes into males and genes on the X that can turn males with XY chromosomes into females… wow! Maleness and femaleness are NOT determined by having an X or a Y, since switching a couple of genes around can turn things upside down.

XX male syndrome occurs when there has been a recombination in the formation of the male gametes, causing the SRY-portion of the Y chromosome to move to the X chromosome. When such an X chromosome contributes to the child, the development will lead to a male, because of the SRY gene.

So in other words, Y is always present in males except an incredibly small minority. But even then the "SRY portion of the Y (see... the Y here) to move to the X chromosome... will lead to a male".

Pretty simple right? Just your article seems to try twist it to make out Y and X means nothing when talking about sex... when in fact it pretty much means everything. XX males still have Y in them.

It's not saying they "mean nothing." It's saying that the picture of "women are XX, men are XY" is not actually the biological reality, which is actually much more complicated.

Its not though, because it's not what the Y looks like, but what is contained in the Y that matters. If a Male has XX he still has XY because one X has the Y contents in it to make him Male. It's not complicated at all. And to top it off this is a minor defect and not a general rule of the population. The Y, even if during the creation of the child, the Y mixes with an X... still creates a male. Why? Well because of the Y (well the SRY) really. There is no way to go around it.

A male with XX does not have XX chromosomes he has X and then a and X with the Y in the X. Females do not have a Y in their second X.

Has someone here studied genetics academically? Because all sources besides transgender ones say Y = Male and it is also what I was educated to believe and what my kids will be educated to know as well but if it is not true by some long shot I would like to know from an unbiased source.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 d-usa wrote:


You use "her" for the same reason people shouldn't be called bigots, because it's disrespectful and not polite.

Also you use "her" because if you don't you are being disrespectful to every other transgender person reading this thread.

Maybe you can use "her" just so that you can feel like you can be a bigger and better person than the disrespectful penis owner.

Wrong. It's that arrogance that causes a lot of confusion that then leads to anger. If you want to identify as something different than what you are, then YOU are asking a favor FROM others. You ask THEM to behave differently just because YOU want it to be that way. Forcing your decision on others and ignoring their very own judgement just because YOU want it that way is wht's incredibly arrogant and rude here. If he wants to be called a she, then ask people to do so. If they do, great for you, if they don't, it's their decision and you either have to respect it or be hyper hypocrite.

They aren't "asking to be addressed as something different to what they are." They are asking you to address them as what they are. Their gender isn't any more chosen than yours.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

And you don't stop calling someone "she" because she has a hysterectomy, and you don't stop calling someone "he" if he's infertile, because those things are irrelevant to a person's gender.

First, I'm not talking about gender I'm talking about sex. Second your examples are irrelevant to what I said. I didn't say you are a man only if you can impregnate. All who can impregnate are men, but not all men can impregnate. Same concept with women. If you can impregnate, you are a man. You may feel like a woman, but you are a man. If you can be impregnated, you are a woman, though yes not all women can be impregnated.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I would like to link to this post explaining trans people reasonably briefly again because it is important for people to understand it to participate meaningfully in the discussion.

Also, misgendering people is actually not very Polite.

Well that blogger tried to make out having extra chromosomes is normal and people with extra chromosomes are misgendered (I think women with 3X chromosomes are the only case where having extra chromosomes does not physically deform you). The blogger is also unable to understand why most people are men and women and not something else (nobody understands why men are men and women are women in 99.99% of cases apparently).

I would take anything this blogger says with a grain of salt. I didn't know down syndrome was a gender...

I mean come on:

Chromosomes, too, vary. If you thought “XX” and “XY” were the only two possible combinations, you have some serious googling to do. In addition to variations like XXY, XXYY, or X, sometimes cis people find out that they are genetically the “opposite” of what they though they were– that is, a ‘typical’ cis man can be XX, a ‘normal’ cis woman can be XY.

People with Y always come out male, people with no Y always come out female (with obvious incredibly rare anomalies, but anomalies happen with everything). All the Chromosomes the person wrote about above are... deformities and still conform to Y = Male (in various combinations all ending in deformity except XY) and Female = XX (anything else also has physical deformities except XXX).

Some of them are pretty rare and some aren't, with incidences of e.g. one in five hundred. Some of these "defects," again, are people who do not even know they have any kind of condition at all. You have interacted with them and never known it.

Actually most of these defects have physical traits (with XXX women being the exception), of course some are more severe than others. But the blogger is still very incorrect about chromosomes. A Y is still going to be male, and no Y is still going to be female, no matter the combination. To argue otherwise shows what kind of person this blogger is (a hint, not someone to listen to).

If you've been reading the posts in this thread, androgen insensitivity syndrome has already been mentioned. It means that the XY individual will develop (in most cases) genitals and secondary characteristics which would be assigned female. It affects 1 in 20000 births, which makes it somewhat rare, but its still a large number of people when one considers the fact that the population is around 7 billion.

So 'Y always comes out male' only works if you define Y as always being male. Which is circular.

 stanman wrote:

How do you determine what to address me as if you don't first make an assumption based on outwardly apparent physical sex?

I would look at someone, see what they look like and address them as that. They would then accept this or tell me "I'm actually [...]". Whereupon I would go "Sorry, didn't realise", and address them as that from then on.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

They aren't "asking to be addressed as something different to what they are." They are asking you to address them as what they are. Their gender isn't any more chosen than yours.

Nonsense. Your extremely strong bias aside, they want to be adressed differently than what you would call them based on what they are. You look / sound like a woman, you get adressed as one. Vice versa for male. You are either born a man or a woman and anything else is pure fantasy. Gender is a social construct that some people feel to have in order to feel more comfortable - which is fine as long as you don't tread around like a walrus in an underwater porcelain store. Respect goes both ways. Trying to shove your own agender (hah!) down people's throats without consent is about as disrespectful as you can be. If you want to be different, then, by all means, do so. Don't force yourself on others, though, and expect to be treated as you want just because you ask it to be that way.

If anyone nicely asked someone else to adress him / her as she / he, then I doubt that most people would not conform. It's that "OH MY GOD YOU CIS-SCUM DON'T RESPECT MAH FEELINGZ IMMA POST DAT ON TUMBLR ASAP" attitude that poisons the entire debate / issue, more than any tea party member ever could.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 d-usa wrote:


You use "her" for the same reason people shouldn't be called bigots, because it's disrespectful and not polite.

Also you use "her" because if you don't you are being disrespectful to every other transgender person reading this thread.

Maybe you can use "her" just so that you can feel like you can be a bigger and better person than the disrespectful penis owner.

Wrong. It's that arrogance that causes a lot of confusion that then leads to anger. If you want to identify as something different than what you are, then YOU are asking a favor FROM others. You ask THEM to behave differently just because YOU want it to be that way. Forcing your decision on others and ignoring their very own judgement just because YOU want it that way is wht's incredibly arrogant and rude here. If he wants to be called a she, then ask people to do so. If they do, great for you, if they don't, it's their decision and you either have to respect it or be hyper hypocrite.

They aren't "asking to be addressed as something different to what they are." They are asking you to address them as what they are. Their gender isn't any more chosen than yours.

They're still only the opposite sex in their mind. Just because you are convinced you are something doesn't mean its true.

Society has decided that its harmless to think you are the opposite sex, and on the spectrum of mental problems it is harmless, especially since we can actually change some of the physical characteristics. But till that happens, its only in your mind. And your mind =/= reality. If it was, people with mental disorders wouldn't be out of touch with reality. Just because someone with Alzheimers thinks its currently 50 years in the past doesn't make it so.

You may indeed think you are a female. And you can get your body altered to fit that belief. But till that happens, and IMO even then, you really aren't a female. You are a man who thinks he is a women.

 MrDwhitey wrote:

 stanman wrote:

How do you determine what to address me as if you don't first make an assumption based on outwardly apparent physical sex?

I would look at someone, see what they look like and address them as that. They would then accept this or tell me "I'm actually [...]". Whereupon I would go "Sorry, didn't realise", and address them as that from then on.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

They aren't "asking to be addressed as something different to what they are." They are asking you to address them as what they are. Their gender isn't any more chosen than yours.

Nonsense. Your extremely strong bias aside, they want to be adressed differently than what you would call them based on what they are. You look / sound like a woman, you get adressed as one. Vice versa for male. You are either born a man or a woman and anything else is pure fantasy. Gender is a social construct that some people feel to have in order to feel more comfortable - which is fine as long as you don't tread around like a walrus in an underwater porcelain store. Respect goes both ways. Trying to shove your own agender (hah!) down people's throats without consent is about as disrespectful as you can be. If you want to be different, then, by all means, do so. Don't force yourself on others, though, and expect to be treated as you want just because you ask it to be that way.

If anyone nicely asked someone else to adress him / her as she / he, then I doubt that most people would not conform. It's that "OH MY GOD YOU CIS-SCUM DON'T RESPECT MAH FEELINGZ" attitude that poisons the entire debate / issue, more than any tea party member ever could.

Again, your gender is just as chosen (and just as real) as theirs. They are just men and women, too.

If you tell me your name is Mike, then I will call you Mike. I won't call you Bob just because I think you look like a Bob, or a jerk because I think you are acting like a jerk, or Donald because you sound like a Donald.

You tell me your identity, I refer to you as that identity.

Super simple stuff really.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 d-usa wrote:


You use "her" for the same reason people shouldn't be called bigots, because it's disrespectful and not polite.

Also you use "her" because if you don't you are being disrespectful to every other transgender person reading this thread.

Maybe you can use "her" just so that you can feel like you can be a bigger and better person than the disrespectful penis owner.

Wrong. It's that arrogance that causes a lot of confusion that then leads to anger. If you want to identify as something different than what you are, then YOU are asking a favor FROM others. You ask THEM to behave differently just because YOU want it to be that way. Forcing your decision on others and ignoring their very own judgement just because YOU want it that way is wht's incredibly arrogant and rude here. If he wants to be called a she, then ask people to do so. If they do, great for you, if they don't, it's their decision and you either have to respect it or be hyper hypocrite.

She is identifying as what she is (a girl). Your argument runs on the predicate that gender=sex, which is being left behind by most of society. You can hold onto it if you like, but its going the way of the dodo.

'Forcing the decision on others' is like forcing them to use the name you introduce yourselfself by. Sure, you can call a person whatever the hell name you want, but if you expect an answer when you call Fred 'Dick' you'll be dreadfully surprised when what you get is a kick in the teeth.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Again, your gender is just as chosen (and just as real) as theirs.

Sure it is. They just chose to identify with a different than their natural gender. It's your very own personal opinion, not more, not less.

 d-usa wrote:
If you tell me your name is Mike, then I will call you Mike. I won't call you Bob just because I think you look like a Bob, or a jerk because I think you are acting like a jerk, or Donald because you sound like a Donald.

You tell me your identity, I refer to you as that identity.

Super simple stuff really.

I got beaten to the punch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

Again, your gender is just as chosen (and just as real) as theirs.

Sure it is. They just chose to identify with a different gender than their sex.

fixed that little slip up for you

 d-usa wrote:
If you tell me your name is Mike, then I will call you Mike. I won't call you Bob just because I think you look like a Bob, or a jerk because I think you are acting like a jerk, or Donald because you sound like a Donald.

You tell me your identity, I refer to you as that identity.

Super simple stuff really.

Names aren't comparable to your sex. Names are chosen, your sex is not.

 d-usa wrote:
If you tell me your name is Mike, then I will call you Mike.

I remember popping out of my mom's vagoo and everyone was like "That's a Mike! It's a Mike!"

I remember popping out of my mother and everyone screaming "That's a straight, a straight!"

 Grey Templar wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 d-usa wrote:


You use "her" for the same reason people shouldn't be called bigots, because it's disrespectful and not polite.

Also you use "her" because if you don't you are being disrespectful to every other transgender person reading this thread.

Maybe you can use "her" just so that you can feel like you can be a bigger and better person than the disrespectful penis owner.

Wrong. It's that arrogance that causes a lot of confusion that then leads to anger. If you want to identify as something different than what you are, then YOU are asking a favor FROM others. You ask THEM to behave differently just because YOU want it to be that way. Forcing your decision on others and ignoring their very own judgement just because YOU want it that way is wht's incredibly arrogant and rude here. If he wants to be called a she, then ask people to do so. If they do, great for you, if they don't, it's their decision and you either have to respect it or be hyper hypocrite.

They aren't "asking to be addressed as something different to what they are." They are asking you to address them as what they are. Their gender isn't any more chosen than yours.

They're still only the opposite sex in their mind. Just because you are convinced you are something doesn't mean its true.

Society has decided that its harmless to think you are the opposite sex, and on the spectrum of mental problems it is harmless, especially since we can actually change some of the physical characteristics. But till that happens, its only in your mind. And your mind =/= reality. If it was, people with mental disorders wouldn't be out of touch with reality. Just because someone with Alzheimers thinks its currently 50 years in the past doesn't make it so.

You may indeed think you are a female. And you can get your body altered to fit that belief. But till that happens, and IMO even then, you really aren't a female. You are a man who thinks he is a women.

We are truly fortunate then, because most of society, most psychologists and the legislators in both of our countries think that what you think is tosh.

So after we got names checked on the bad analogies list, go ahead and add sexual orientation to it!