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Ideally, abolish the Ecclesiarchy and Cult Mechanicus, make scientific advancement a major priority, and make non-aggression pacts and military alliances with certain well-intentioned Xenos races, especially the Eldar.

In practice, both the Ecclesiarchy and Cult Mechanicus are off limits. Both have so much power, any attempt to eliminate them would result in a civil war, and the lack of belief would bolster Chaos by weakening the Emperor and leaving people open to other faiths, such as with Lorgar. As a result, scientific advancement cannot occur while the Cult Mechanicus exists, and pacts with Xenos cannot occur while the Imperial Creed dictates people should abhor them.

So, pragmatically, if I had the time, I would seek to engineer a new religion that slowly merged both dominant religions, and sought to eliminate the damaging elements of them. Religion is a necessary bulwark against Chaos and a force of unity for Humanity in the 40k universe, so creating a progressive religion that had a Tau-like philosophy that was open to aliens and technology would be the way to go

I'd go about this with the help of the Inquisition and the Officio Assassinorum, by bribing, blackmailing, intimidating and even assassinating the upper echelons of both religions, and installing my own pawns in key positions. The hope would be that after a couple of generations you have something along the lines of the Christian reformation, that had a major contribution to the success of the European rennaissance, with the hope reviving the Imperium in a similar way.

This is a change however that would take centuries. Possibly even a millennium, and there's likely not enough time.

Also - lots of psychopaths in this thread that I'm glad will never hold any real power in the actual world!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
A lot of these ideas strike me as efforts to cause another Horus Heresy.

This isn't a historical reenactor's website is it?

We aren't debating about how many rivets should be on a Astartes Mk. 7's Model 38 power pack's right nozzle so this is probably not a reenactor's site.

I'd open a dialog with the Ethereals to negotiate some sort of long-term cultural exchange and peace treaty. They need to understand the true dangers of Chaos, and my Imperial Guard needs pulse rifles and hover-tanks to replace the worthless gak they currently use.

I'd send an army to Hito to reclaim the STC there. With the above technological advances, it'd be time to prepare a surprise for Abaddon's upcoming 13th Black Crusade- I'd have enough ships waiting to kill the fether once and for all.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I'd open a dialog with the Ethereals to negotiate some sort of long-term cultural exchange and peace treaty. They need to understand the true dangers of Chaos, and my Imperial Guard needs pulse rifles and hover-tanks to replace the worthless gak they currently use.

I'd send an army to Hito to reclaim the STC there. With the above technological advances, it'd be time to prepare a surprise for Abaddon's upcoming 13th Black Crusade- I'd have enough ships waiting to kill the fether once and for all.

Yea, but the Imperium is xenophobic, small steps first bro. Else you'd be disposed of. Arch-highlord or not. Which is why I proposed reform and restructuring, to remove power bases and attain loyalty for myself, or at least realign loyalties to my interests. So my plan is better Its superior.

Abuse my power to live a lavish life and enjoy all the perks which come with immortality - or damn near it.

 LumenPraebeo wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I'd open a dialog with the Ethereals to negotiate some sort of long-term cultural exchange and peace treaty. They need to understand the true dangers of Chaos, and my Imperial Guard needs pulse rifles and hover-tanks to replace the worthless gak they currently use.

I'd send an army to Hito to reclaim the STC there. With the above technological advances, it'd be time to prepare a surprise for Abaddon's upcoming 13th Black Crusade- I'd have enough ships waiting to kill the fether once and for all.

Yea, but the Imperium is xenophobic, small steps first bro. Else you'd be disposed of. Arch-highlord or not. Which is why I proposed reform and restructuring, to remove power bases and attain loyalty for myself, or at least realign loyalties to my interests. So my plan is better Its superior.

I'm sure I can find at least one world in the millions the Imperium has that isn't xenophobic. Trust me on this, I have a plan.

Step 1- Flatten 13th Black Crusade.
Step 2- ?
Step 3- Profit

The only way to flatten the 13th Black Crusade is with weapons that didn't exist in the Imperium when Abaddon sacked Cadia before the retcon. A few million pulse rifles, a few hundred hovertanks... all of a sudden, we're holding Cadia until the Navy establishes space superiority, and then I have that fether trapped on Cadia, and I can kill him. No more Abaddon=no more unified Chaos. I win Warhammer 40k.

I will also get the Carcharodons in on throwing back the 13th Crusade right from the get-go. I'll just have to make sure they know to not blow up Cadia.

I don't know, there was that one inquisitor, Quixros? Maybe? Who was replicating the cadian pylons. Mass produce that technology and ithe good game against chaos. Totally sealing the maelstrom and eye of terror would severely limit their influence in the material universe.

Invest in developing better gear for Guardsmen.

Invest in sentinel tech. Make sentinel faster and have stonger front armor and give better guns.

Make Sentinel Platoons an army choice.

Make a Voltron Sentinel where 5 sentinels can combine to make 1 Super Heavy. Possibly a bit smaller than 1 Imperial Knight.

Make more vehicles modular so they can combine to make 1 big vehicle.

 Filch wrote:
Invest in developing better gear for Guardsmen.

Invest in sentinel tech. Make sentinel faster and have stonger front armor and give better guns.

Make Sentinel Platoons an army choice.

Make a Voltron Sentinel where 5 sentinels can combine to make 1 Super Heavy. Possibly a bit smaller than 1 Imperial Knight.

Make more vehicles modular so they can combine to make 1 big vehicle.

Can we do transformers next?

MarsNZ wrote:
I'd stop pouring resources into Space Marines, a hugely wasteful and rather unproductive use of valuable resources that could be more efficiently used elsewhere. I'd expand other branches such as the Sisters, the Imperial Guard and of course the Navy. I'd also ditch the xenophobia angle and try to get some kind of cooperation going with other civil races such as Tau and Eldar. I'd also legalise gay marriage and marijuana.

You do realize that Space Marines are 90% self-sufficient, don't you?They have Techmarines, who are usually known to forge weapons and armour, as well as Bolt Shells. They get things like Rhinos and Space Craft from the AdMech, but, if the Blood Angels are anything to go by, they're more than capable of constructing their own tanks and vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, in the virtually impossible event that I were to, somehow, gain more power than even Goge Vandire had, I would, of course, reform the religions within the Imperium of Man. This would done over a period of centuries, perhaps even millenia. Of course, I would also need to be an Alpha-plus Psyker with Emperor-level control of his powers, but still.

First of all, I would attempt to reduce the xenophobia within the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition. I would do so by acquiring as many powerful Pskers as I could, and then using them to psychically implant the same dreams into the upper echelons of the Ecclesiarchy. The first one would be one of Sanguinius walking up to said powerful Ecclesiarch, flanked by Eldar, and saying ," the time has come. Embrace the Emperor's true vision of glory. We need the Xenos, for this is the will of the Emperor". The second one would be of a great battle between Chaos and a combined force of Astartes and dozens of lesser Xeno species, while Ferrus Manus raises his mace up into the air, and screams "FOR THE EMPEROR!!!", and everyone, even the Xenos, take up the warcry. The third would be of a bunch of Jokaero working on the Golden Throne, and then, miraculously, the Emperor turns his gaze upon the dreamer, and booms his voice into their minds,"This is the way and the future. The xenos can be used, and use them you must." There would be dozens, and, eventually, hundreds of these kinds of dreams being implanted into all kinds of members of the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition. As the years wore on, this would lead to eventual softening of the "purge the Xenos" mentality. Eventually, we would conquer, not exterminate, the lesser Xenos, use their technology, and become all the mightier for it.

The reformation of the Cult Mechanicus would be brought about in a similar manner. One dream could be of the Emperor designing a new class of Titan, as his voice booms into the mind of the dreamer,"This is the way and the future. Progression, or-" the dream turns into a vision of Mars covered in ruins and dead Tech-Priests,"- destruction." Another one would be a Primarch using Xenos tech and saying something deep and meaningful about Xeno tech, etc. etc.

The next big change would be to bring about Imperial Legions, once more. I would modify the Codex Astartes, so that each Chapter becomes a Legion of 20k, with more ships, more tanks, and subservient Guard Auxiliaries (max. 2 regiments to a Legion). This way, the Legions would be actually capable of conquering a planet, instead relying wholly upon Surgical Strikes (this way, the in-fluff idiocy of using Astartes as linemen would be 1% less retahded).

Oh, yeah, I'd also increase the size of each Regiment to 50k-100k bodies to drown my foes in. I'd also make them a part of a Division, with each of the 10 constituent Regiments working together, in the same Sector(s).

As I'm sure you gathered from my initial reformations, I would also begin making alliances, trade treaties, and mutual defense pacts with all manner of lesser (and greater) Xeno empires. If at all possible, I would also replicate the Necron Pylons found on Cadia, in order to shut off the major Warp Storms.

If, by some miracle, I actually succeeded in doing all of this without getting assassinated, I would also create a Republican standard on Civilized Worlds. Any worlds with, say, greater than 100 Mil. people on it would be required to vote for a Senate and an Executive Representative (President, Prime Minister, or other equivalent) to govern them. These Representatives would then be capable of being voted into Sub-Sector, Sector, and Segmentum-level representation. It would, by no means, be a perfect system of government, but it would improve standards of living by sheer virtue of Governors wanting their constituents to remain their constituents.

Because I have meta knowledge, I raid the Adpetus Mechanicus world that has a functioning STC on with the might of multiple Space Marine Chapters. While the STC goes about building the Imperium a new fleet of Capital Ships to begin a second Great Crusade against the Orks, Tyranids, and Chaos, I'd conscript many Custodes to become my personal bodyguards, and if not them, some Grey Knight Paladins. Then I'd go about trying to standardize gak and simply creating paths of reliable communication between Adepts.

Disband some of the Assassin Cults for heresy, and reform the others to become something akin to a SINGLE organization like the CIA or Mossad, specializing in both intelligence gathering and assassination. Information will be shared with every single branch of the Imperium as soon as they can be reached, a military cannot function if some parties are in the dark.

Tell the mechanicus to shove it and hand over their over secrets or meet the firepower of my exponentially increasing fleet. Mandate the creation of more Skitarii and their usage as an offensive military force, start augmentation programs that may even turn Guardsmen into proto-space marines with enough bionics slapped on. Spread critical blueprints across the Imperium to ensure they can't be fragged by invading Xenos.

Finally, use cloning to mass produce Space Marines. Don't settle until the Imperium has at least a billion new Astartes, perhaps even more. Use the same training and indoctrination as the Dark Angels- using hypnotherapy to program them so you can even verbally command them with the right codes and control their minds. Staff the new swarm of Chapters on the continually expanding fleet with new armies of Skitarii and Guardsmen, and set sail in every direction.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 Filch wrote:
Invest in developing better gear for Guardsmen.

Invest in sentinel tech. Make sentinel faster and have stonger front armor and give better guns.

Make Sentinel Platoons an army choice.

Make a Voltron Sentinel where 5 sentinels can combine to make 1 Super Heavy. Possibly a bit smaller than 1 Imperial Knight.

Make more vehicles modular so they can combine to make 1 big vehicle.

Can we do transformers next?

Looking back. Sentinels are too small and cost so little to be considered super heavy vehicle tru combing. 5 Armored Sentinels cobbled together would be the size of a Dread Knight and cost just as much with 200pts base with 5 multi lasers. You can then upgrade other guns accordingly.

I was thinking

a SHV with 8 guns which come from 10 sentinels. 16 HP from 8 Sentinels while the other 2 are foots.

j am Thinking what if one sentinel forms the left Torso and one Sentinel forms the right torso. 2 guns inbetween them to form a core for a co-axel turret. 40x2 form armoured Sentinel chasis Making the body 80pts.

Next are the arms. The Upper Shoulder formed by 1 Armored Sentinel and the lower hand is formed by 1 more sentinel. There would be 2 guns. 1 attached to the upper shoulder and one more on the Hand (make this hand sentinel with 4 legs so it looks like a hand) Again 40x2 for 2 Armored Sentinels with 2 MultiLasers.

Same thing for the other arm. 80pts

Next are the Legs. 2 Armored Sentinels. However only the upper leg gets a gun. The lower sentinel replaces the gun slot for jet boosters. 80pts for multi laser configuration.

So you get this

ws3 bs3 s5 FV12 sv10 rv10 i3 a3 hp16 SHV Jumper Base Cost 400pts (edit: decided on 320pts instead)
2 Torso Guns
2 Shoulder Guns
2 Fore Arm Guns or Close Combat Weapons.
2 hip guns
Each Foot sentinel has rocket boosters for jumping.
Optional 9th gun is carapace mounted.

Special rules:
invincible behemoth
move thru cover
smash (3 hits at S5 ap2? or single S10 ap2 hit)
Relentless
Hammer of Wrath
strike down (abuse here!)
Independent Firing
Combined Arms: Treat multiple gun shooting into 1 phase like 3 plasma cannons stacking 3 templates into one unit.

Instead of 1 massive gun like an IK. You get 8 regular heavy or special Guns. So you can have any combo of Autocannons, heavy bolters, missiles launchers, lascannons, heavy flamers, plasma cannons. Book keeping can be complicated or simple. All guns are independent firing. It has s5 in cc but perhaps an upgrade option of a Dreadnaught Close Combat weapons can purchased to double the str to 10. Sorry no Str D in cc. It still gets stomp attacks at str d though.

Because it is a SHV Walker, It gets Invincible Behemoth. It ignores crew shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed, immobilized. Can not be exploded but when a 7 on the damage table occurs it would lose d3 hp. The 16 hp it gets will help balance out the weak fv12 and side and rear av10. It gets no Ion Shield. It can get camo netting which confers 6+ cover.

I feel like this would be a great anthesis to the IK.

The whole idea was to get Guardsmen into more Sentinels and wage war inside of those. Once nearly all guards men have an abundance of Armored Sentinels then those Sentinels can be upgraded to combine into a SHV like a megazord or voltron.

Stock at 320pts it would have 8 multi laser out 24 s6 ap 6 shots.
...It still underperforms compared to 6 Scat bikes at 162pts...and can be glanced by said scat bikes...

However, spending 5pts per missile launcer you can get 8 Missile Launchers and fire 8 Krak Missiles for 40 pts more in total. Now that is comparable to the Castigators gun.

Spending 5 pts per ac then you get 8 ac and 16 shots of s7 ap4 to possibly kill flyers.

Spending 10pts per plasma cannons would get you 8 small blast templates and even if you get hot, you get a 4+ and you have plenty hp.

Or 8 lascannons

Special Upgrade : Gun Kata Protocols : 20pts allows the Mega Sentinel to replace its base attack 3 with any non blast or template or ordance shooting attacks as if there were in close combat point blank shots.

We can also have a risky Mega Scout Sentinel with av10 all around for 40pts less putting it at 280pts yet carrying 8 guns.

... and after 25,000 years of research into building that monstrosity, you learn it's still taken out by a single infantryman with a melta-bomb.

Also, this is the fluff forum, points values and the like do not exist as in-universe concepts.

I for one find it disturbing how many people want to outright destroy the Inquisition, remove the Cult Mechanicus, and do X to the Imperial Creed. In the grim darkness of the far future, what keeps Humanity alive is not Spess Mehreens, nor heroic guardsmen, but fanaticism.

Take, for example, the Inquisitor. His job is to root out heresy, to protect people from knowledge of the greatest threat to intelligent life ever. without his efforts, and others like him, there would be no Imperium. It is the same for the Ecchlesiarchy and the Machine Cultists.

Ruling the Imperium in a traditional sense is nigh-on-impossible. even the big E couldn't do that.

If you gained power even over the high lords, then pimp out your chair, get the bitchen-est armour, and prepare for the most depressing time of your life.

Xafilah wrote:
I for one find it disturbing how many people want to outright destroy the Inquisition, remove the Cult Mechanicus, and do X to the Imperial Creed. In the grim darkness of the far future, what keeps Humanity alive is not Spess Mehreens, nor heroic guardsmen, but fanaticism.

Agreed. But modifications to make an imperfect system slightly more perfect wouldn't hurt.

 Psienesis wrote:
... and after 25,000 years of research into building that monstrosity, you learn it's still taken out by a single infantryman with a melta-bomb.

Also, this is the fluff forum, points values and the like do not exist as in-universe concepts.

Invincible Behemoth special rule causes any explosion results to instead cause d3 hp losses. A Mega Sentinel with 16 hp would need about 6 melta bomb explosions.

The main idea was to just get every guardsmen into a sentinel. Make sentinels abundant and so numerous that sentinels be the go to army force instead of marines.

 Filch wrote:


The main idea was to just get every guardsmen into a sentinel. Make sentinels abundant and so numerous that sentinels be the go to army force instead of marines.

When have Marines ever been the go-to army force? That's the oceans of Guardsmen that you're thinking of.

What j meant was that Marines are the Rapid Response team. It would be great if a majority of Guardsmen on site can jump into a sentinel and fight like a space marine. The sentinel seems to be a cheap and easy to maintain walker with unsophisticated controls and systems. These walkers are all terrain, can hop, etc. Maybe it cant climb stairs like the big walker in Robocop, but I am sure it can find another way by adding rocket boosters or make better hydraulics to allow high and long jumps.

Unlike complicated gene manipulation to create a Space Marine, a guardsmen can hop into the seat of a sentinel and deliver heavy weapons unlike a 2 man heavy weapons team. If they can upgrade the legs to walk faster then they can nearly keep up with bikes. Something like the 3+ movement like the dune crawlers.

Unlike sophisticated and painful mechanicum augmentation, the Guardsmen can get a tighter Sentinel to be like a mobile suite with advance sensor arrays and non surgery robotic limbs. No painful surgery needed. He just needs a hand on the joystick and the other on the console with one foot on a gas pedal and brakes so he can operate this small light weight agile chicken walker.

The sentinel can kick at str5, much stronger than a guardsmen, has 2 hp, can carry a marine gun. Can be glanced by str4 guns but immune to str3. Compared to 3 marines with weak bolters or 8 guardsmen with flashlights the stock multi laser is stronger and will never run from combat and will always be stuck in.

Perhaps they can create a special Power Foot to kill tough enemies Or create a special close combat limb to add more attacks. Some thing simple like the spike arm in battle bots. Get some ap3 weaponry would be great.

The sentinel chasis has a great potential to change how guardsmen wage war.

What if there was a sentinel variation that traded 1hp for front and side av11? Now you can have a platoon. Have one become a sergeant to challenge out the enemy power fist or meltabomb and win. Marines with str4 would never be able to hurt a av11 walker jn combat.

Just to point out again, we're strictly talking fluff here, so please stop using the values of game rules to justify anything, because it simply doesn't hold up to what the things we're talking about are supposed to be capable of.

 Filch wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
... and after 25,000 years of research into building that monstrosity, you learn it's still taken out by a single infantryman with a melta-bomb.

Also, this is the fluff forum, points values and the like do not exist as in-universe concepts.

Invincible Behemoth special rule causes any explosion results to instead cause d3 hp losses. A Mega Sentinel with 16 hp would need about 6 melta bomb explosions.

The main idea was to just get every guardsmen into a sentinel. Make sentinels abundant and so numerous that sentinels be the go to army force instead of marines.

The "A Melta-Bomb Turns BaneBlades into Puddles of Slag" (AMBTBBiPoS) rule, as defined in the fluff for Baneblades and melta-bombs, and 40k in general, states that a weapon is only as destructive as its Cool Factor. If a Melta-bomb is used against the wall of some nameless building to attack some faceless mooks inside it, then it just blows a hole in the wall, maybe.

If the melta-bomb is carried by a Named Character on foot, without the benefit of heavy support and is charging a vehicle manned by his/her Nemesis? That melta-bomb will cause the deaths of worlds, *especially* if Our Hero is injured and/or dies in the resulting explosion.

'He who defends everything, defends nothing'
The Imperium tries to defend everything and that will eventually kill it. That must be remedied imo.

Therefore I would:

1. Increase the tithes of the outer 2/3rds of the Imperium by a significant margin (to a barely sustainable level) and then devote all of those resources and men to reinforcing, fortifying and defending the inner 1/3rd of the Imperium.

2. Recall all military forces from the outer 2/3rds of the Imperium, Guard, Space Marines, Sisters etc. (leaving behind skeleton PDF forces to slow down xenos/chaos and act as police in effect). These forces will then be reassigned to defending the inner 1/3rd.

3. I would not defend or respond to invasions in the outer 2/3rds of the Imperium but will use the Imperial Navy and Officio Assasinorum to enforce tithe demands (if systems try rebelling).

4. I would plant exterminatus level weaponry on as many planets as I can in the outer 2/3rds of the Imperium. If a planet is lost to the enemy, it would be detonated and they would not reap the rewards of their conquest.

5. I would arm every man, woman and child (from a trainable age) within the core 1/3rd of the Imperium so that even if an enemy managed to breach the enhanced fortifications of the core, the populace can assist in defence and sell their lives as dearly as possible.

6. I would create and dispatch ark ships to other galaxies (the nearest galaxy is 2.5 million ly away which is 25x the diamater of our galaxy which fluff-wise can be crossed in about 3 years so the nearest galaxy is only 75 years away by warp). Thus attempting to ensure the survival of the human species just in case.

Hopefully that would be a good start for ensuring the future of the Imperium and especially the human species.
TLDR - Sacrifice the outer 2/3rds of the Imperium to ensure the survival of the inner 1/3rd.

I would try to get the mechanicus to work together to build a better communications system. Tell the assassinorum "hey, you know the tau? i don't want them to have leaders." seriously, assassin battalions. then, take a huge ass fleet, tons of sororitas and grey knights, black templars to boot, and five fething crusades worth of guardsmen, and bombard chaos planets near the eye. if possible, assault the eye itself, just to at least throw them off. weaken the ecclessiarchy. launch lots of exterminatus at tyranid and ork held planets. try to bolster the inquisition.

 Otto Weston wrote:
'He who defends everything, defends nothing'
The Imperium tries to defend everything and that will eventually kill it. That must be remedied imo.

Therefore I would:

1. Increase the tithes of the outer 2/3rds of the Imperium by a significant margin (to a barely sustainable level) and then devote all of those resources and men to reinforcing, fortifying and defending the inner 1/3rd of the Imperium.

2. Recall all military forces from the outer 2/3rds of the Imperium, Guard, Space Marines, Sisters etc. (leaving behind skeleton PDF forces to slow down xenos/chaos and act as police in effect). These forces will then be reassigned to defending the inner 1/3rd.

3. I would not defend or respond to invasions in the outer 2/3rds of the Imperium but will use the Imperial Navy and Officio Assasinorum to enforce tithe demands (if systems try rebelling).

4. I would plant exterminatus level weaponry on as many planets as I can in the outer 2/3rds of the Imperium. If a planet is lost to the enemy, it would be detonated and they would not reap the rewards of their conquest.

5. I would arm every man, woman and child (from a trainable age) within the core 1/3rd of the Imperium so that even if an enemy managed to breach the enhanced fortifications of the core, the populace can assist in defence and sell their lives as dearly as possible.

6. I would create and dispatch ark ships to other galaxies (the nearest galaxy is 2.5 million ly away which is 25x the diamater of our galaxy which fluff-wise can be crossed in about 3 years so the nearest galaxy is only 75 years away by warp). Thus attempting to ensure the survival of the human species just in case.

Hopefully that would be a good start for ensuring the future of the Imperium and especially the human species.
TLDR - Sacrifice the outer 2/3rds of the Imperium to ensure the survival of the inner 1/3rd.

You do realize that half of the Segmentum Ultima (the important half) is within the "outer 2/3rds" of the Imperium, yes?

The Imperium exists as a series of islands (where each island is a human-occupied star system) in a vast sea of darkness, linked only by stable Warp Routes that connect each system to its neighbors. In the spaces between an Imperial System and its next "closest" neighbor might exist a hundred stars belonging to a Xeno empire the Imperium has never encountered, simply because the known Warp Routes don't go there. It's not contiguous human-held worlds and space-fortresses from Terra all the way to the galaxy's edge, it's just simple "X marks the spot" points on a black field labeled "Astra Incognita" and "Here, there be dragons".

 Otto Weston wrote:
'
TLDR - Sacrifice the outer 2/3rds of the Imperium to ensure the survival of the inner 1/3rd.

The Imperium doesn't work that way. It's not a nation with defined borders, but an archipelago that has numerous hostile forces within its own borders. Tyranids attack from above the galactic plane, Craftworlds drift through Imperial space, Dark Eldar attack from anywhere, Ork planets are everywhere, as is the likeliehood that Tomb Worlds are.

Also, how would you stop rebellion? Assassinations? Really? Do you know how large 2/3rds of the Imperium is? 666,000 worlds, conservatively. Including trillions of citizens and billions of soldiers. These include Forge Worlds and Hive Worlds that contribute vast amounts to the economic health of the Imperium at large. You wouldn't just lose 2/3rds of your production, but 2/3rds of your forces.

Even if your plan worked, your enemies would simply take these worlds and strengthen themselves. Imagine 2/3rds of the Imperium turning to Chaos for salvation due to abandonment from the Imperium. I'm sure the Tau would also step up protection for nearby worlds and take them in. If you don't have the forces to defend those worlds, you certainly don't have the forces to put down rebellions.

Totally unworkable and flawed plan, that would essentially lead to the suicide of the Human race.

Does anyone else either sign up with or disprove of my plan to save the Imperium by killing Abaddon in a 13th Black Crusade trap?

It's largely pointless.

Chaos is like the mafia. Kill a leader, and another rises up to take their place, as there's thousands just waiting to do so. He isn't the Emperor, or even Horus. There's nothing about him that would cause a collapse in the morale or structure of the Chaos Space Marines.

One theory is also that he's beneficial as the leader of the CSMs as he's arguably incompetent at fighting the Imperium, with his only real skill being somehow clinging onto his position. Kill him, and you risk replacing him with someone worse.

Hierophant wrote:
It's largely pointless.

Chaos is like the mafia. Kill a leader, and another rises up to take their place, as there's thousands just waiting to do so. He isn't the Emperor, or even Horus. There's nothing about him that would cause a collapse in the morale or structure of the Chaos Space Marines.

One theory is also that he's beneficial as the leader of the CSMs as he's arguably incompetent at fighting the Imperium, with his only real skill being somehow clinging onto his position. Kill him, and you risk replacing him with someone worse.

That theory is contradicted by the actual background so it should probably be disregarded. Chaos is in a way largely meritocratic (save for the occasional spawndom); if Abaddon was incompetent he would have been killed either through treachery or open battle (with either other traitors, Loyalists (or even xenos)).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Hierophant wrote:
It's largely pointless.

Chaos is like the mafia. Kill a leader, and another rises up to take their place, as there's thousands just waiting to do so. He isn't the Emperor, or even Horus. There's nothing about him that would cause a collapse in the morale or structure of the Chaos Space Marines.

One theory is also that he's beneficial as the leader of the CSMs as he's arguably incompetent at fighting the Imperium, with his only real skill being somehow clinging onto his position. Kill him, and you risk replacing him with someone worse.

That theory is contradicted by the actual background so it should probably be disregarded. Chaos is in a way largely meritocratic (save for the occasional spawndom); if Abaddon was incompetent he would have been killed either through treachery or open battle (with either other traitors, Loyalists (or even xenos)).

Plus, didn't each Black Crusade have a specific goal in mind; like, none of them was actually meant to completely destroy the Imperium until the 13th?

Chaos certainly is not a meritocracy. It's actually a system ruled by patronage. If the Gods don't favour you, or provide you with boons, then you're nothing.

You could argue that the Gods reward merit, but bear in mind if Abaddon's function (knowingly, or not) is likely to keep the Imperium harried without ever actually causing it to collapse. If so, then he's doing a great job. He has merit in his lack of ability to seal the deal. And it isn't as if the Gods are not known for their plots, or using people for their own ends.

The fluff has stated many times that it is not in the interest of Chaos to see the Imperium, and therefore Humanity, collapse, as it's the source of most of its power. The aims of CSMs differ, but they're just pawns. Abaddon is just a pawn. What he wants doesn't matter. What he does (or doesn't do) is what's important to the Gods.

And a 10,000 year plan is a pretty crap plan. There's nothing in it at all that justifies the length, though that could of course simply be down to bad writing. Even then, it doesn't remove the central point, which is that removing Abaddon would simply open the position to someone else. Abaddon, without his gifts, is not anyone special. Hell, even the fluff portrays him as petty and insecure, and he regularly gets disrespected by all manner of other warband leaders and Traitor Primarchs.

Put a ton of resources into killing him, and Honsou, or someone else, gets a promotion and all his Chaos gifts. Nothing has really changed. Nobody really cares about Abaddon (does anyone in Chaos care about anyone else?), and his death would simply cause a series of promotions, nothing more. No morale collapse, nothing.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
I'd open a dialog with the Ethereals to negotiate some sort of long-term cultural exchange and peace treaty. They need to understand the true dangers of Chaos, and my Imperial Guard needs pulse rifles and hover-tanks to replace the worthless gak they currently use.

To be honest we all know what happened the last time the Tau accepted the offer of cultural exchange....