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 Gamgee wrote:
They have nothing in common with Japan. At all. Imperial Japan has much more in common culturally with the Imperium of Man. I mean suicide attacks, worship of an Emperor, love of mecha, sisters of battle waifu crap.

The Tau have more in common with the Classical Greek Republic, Star Trek Federation, and Brave New World all shmushed together. Tau aren't even communist their utilitarians.

Visually they are Asian looking. That's about it.

Edit
Oh they've also been given a Japanese/Asian accent in the games as well.

....The Imperium is nothing like the Imperial Japanese Empire. It's literally the Holy Roman Empire in SPAAAACE.

IG has ignores cover on any infantry squad they want at any time (I use it for 5 Lascannons from my blob). Also on a Leman Russ variant and Wyverns. Skyfire/interceptor on hydras, and Aegis line/other fortifications.

Inquisition has Coteaz, who you can add just by himself to any imperial unit by himself for 100 points. Basically grants interceptor on top of 2 warp charges in any discipline.

Eldar I don't know about interceptor, but I know they have skyfire on swooping hawks and their plane as well as tons of ignores cover.

Cult Mechanicus has a formation for Ignores cover Grav/Plasma, a relic for interceptor on everything, and both on the skiitari's crazy Icarus array tank. and they can turn level two Markerlights on their entire army (twice per game). Skiitari can do that 3 times per game.

Grey knights have interceptor on a bunch of stuff, a plane for flyers, and ignores cover super-flamers.

Those are not uncommon rules, dude.

The Ignores Cover is an order and requires you to be within range of an officer and to pass a Leadership test.

The Leman Russ variant that ignores cover is strength 6 AP 4 and can only reach to 36". It is also extremely expensive and can only snapfire its other weapons.

Wyverns are not a bad unit

Hydras are an anti air vehicle. Almost every faction has an AA platform. Tau just get it on almost everything.

Aegis can be used by anyone. Try again.

Inquisitor Coteaz. A 100 point upgrade to give a single unit interceptor. Compared to the Tau "lolz intercept everything"

Eldar are not even Imperial.

Mechanicus is Mechanicus and thats a formation, you have to take things to get it, you dont just get it automatically. You may also have noted that I specifically mentioned non Adeptus Mechanicus and non Space Marine stuff - stop judging us all by two armies.

Grey Knights... They have a flyer. Wow.

If you are having trouble with tau not moving, you need more terrain. You should also play maelstrom missions. If they are hunkering down in a corner, then stay out of line of sight and win on objectives. It may be boring once or twice, but if you don't make them change their strategy to win games, you won't ever see a different list.

Also, why not include the space marines, admech, and knights? How about the fact that I.G., space wolves, grey knights, and blood angels all have divination?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If you are having trouble with tau not moving, you need more terrain. You should also play maelstrom missions. If they are hunkering down in a corner, then stay out of line of sight and win on objectives. It may be boring once or twice, but if you don't make them change their strategy to win games, you won't ever see a different list.

Also, why not include the space marines, admech, and knights? How about the fact that I.G., space wolves, grey knights, and blood angels all have divination?

Stay out of LOS huh? what about those wonderful missile pods that don't have to have LOS to fire. And the PLETHORA of ignores cover they get.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Anyway, some of the Tau hates comes from their hypocritical actions. They say everything is for the Greater Good and they seem like good guys on the outside, but once you get past that they're just as ruthless and twisted as every other faction. The difference is the other factions aren't trying to make apologies or cover up what they do. They do what they do because they must. The Tau are no different, they just hide their smut under shiny clean armor and honeyed words.

But isn't that part of their appeal? As I thought part of their earlier criticism was that they were allegedly not 'grimdark' enough for 40K.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 pumpinchimp wrote:
I like Tau because they are the most Sci-Fi of the factions.

What do you mean by "most sci fi?" Maybe in a Star Trek space opera or Orweillian Dystopia sense. But if you like Jack Vance Dying Earth style techno-barbarism then Space Marines are most sci fi. Weird Tales Magazine classic 60s paperback pulp scifi? Reach for AdMech. More of a near future Enders game/Starship Troopers scifi fan? IG is the most sci fi. Star Wars space monks with hand wavey tech? Back to Marines. Heinlein robots and cyborgs mixed with some classic early 50s Death Rays and Doom Engines and Heat Beams? Necrons are most sci fi.

40k is a big big place. So is sci fi.

40k actually falls under the fantasy genre (science fantasy to be specific), not sci fi. (sci fi does not allow supernatural elements). That is also why the Tau stand out so much, as they are the only faction without supernatural themes.

I'd guess that's one reason why they were added. If I wanted to have psykers in my lists I'd play Eldar or most other codexes- the Tau and Black Templars are that middle finger at Harry Potter 40K.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Ignores Cover is an order and requires you to be within range of an officer and to pass a Leadership test.

The Leman Russ variant that ignores cover is strength 6 AP 4 and can only reach to 36". It is also extremely expensive and can only snapfire its other weapons.

Wyverns are not a bad unit

Hydras are an anti air vehicle. Almost every faction has an AA platform. Tau just get it on almost everything.

Aegis can be used by anyone. Try again.

Inquisitor Coteaz. A 100 point upgrade to give a single unit interceptor. Compared to the Tau "lolz intercept everything"

Eldar are not even Imperial.

Mechanicus is Mechanicus and thats a formation, you have to take things to get it, you dont just get it automatically. You may also have noted that I specifically mentioned non Adeptus Mechanicus and non Space Marine stuff - stop judging us all by two armies.

Grey Knights... They have a flyer. Wow.

Tau ignores cover requires them to hit with (2 or 3 I don't remember) Markerlights, or on missile pods which are I believe AP5.

They don't get Interceptor/Skyfire on everything, it's an upgrade for a couple of their suits and/or tanks. On a riptide, for instance, they can choose two upgrades which can be extra guns or skyfire/interceptor.

100 points for a dude in artificer armor with a demonhammer two psychic levels in any discipline who grants interceptor to everyone is a fuckin bargain. There's only really one or two units worth granting interceptor in an army anyway. You wanna pay 200 points to put interceptor on your whole tau list be my guest I'll just laugh at you.

Since when does IG give a flying Frick about tau anyway? What, is he gonna pay 150 points to fire one BS4 S10 shot at you a turn? Oooh, scary. Nuke his pathfinders with a wyvern turn one and roll over him.

Big Ass and Medium Arse Mechs?-Check!

Samurai like shoulder pads?-Check!

Goes by a Brothers of Arms/Warrior Code that uses blades?-Bushido-Check!

As Advance Tech that no one have?-Check!( like all the anime where japanese tech is involved).

As "Shaolin/Taoiste Monks" authoritative figures?-Check!

Heavely Inspired by Japanese and Anime culture?-Double Check!

Is that a Problem?-fething nope, it only makes them different from the rest of the 40k galaxy, wich is cool.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I don't know.. considering how they were depicted in DoW and all of the huge mecha suit that are available and coming out for Tau I would say the anime comparison is warranted.

But this is part of the problem. Originally Tau were Mech, not MechA. Humanoidform battlesuits were only one aspect of Tau war machine. Now, they're becoming Mecha cliche this and Gundam that. It's just lame, no imagination, lets just design new ever bigger battlesuits!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SDFarsight wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Anyway, some of the Tau hates comes from their hypocritical actions. They say everything is for the Greater Good and they seem like good guys on the outside, but once you get past that they're just as ruthless and twisted as every other faction. The difference is the other factions aren't trying to make apologies or cover up what they do. They do what they do because they must. The Tau are no different, they just hide their smut under shiny clean armor and honeyed words.

But isn't that part of their appeal? As I thought part of their earlier criticism was that they were allegedly not 'grimdark' enough for 40K.

Exactly. Tau are space opera Human cliches projected to an alien race:

-Short-lived and physically weak but dynamic and ambitious
-have grown enormously in power in only short time
-very innovative, high technology
-not "warrior born" but nevertheless quite adept in ways of war
-preach their naive ideology to everyone whilst knowing nothing about dark secrets of the Galaxy.

It is part of why people find Tau annoying: they are designed to be. It's like role reversal from Humans vs Romulans (or Minbari or...)

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If you are having trouble with tau not moving, you need more terrain. You should also play maelstrom missions. If they are hunkering down in a corner, then stay out of line of sight and win on objectives. It may be boring once or twice, but if you don't make them change their strategy to win games, you won't ever see a different list.

Also, why not include the space marines, admech, and knights? How about the fact that I.G., space wolves, grey knights, and blood angels all have divination?

Stay out of LOS huh? what about those wonderful missile pods that don't have to have LOS to fire. And the PLETHORA of ignores cover they get.

SMS are a single weapon system, and are not really that cost effective. We have them on our HS tanks and our overpriced DT. They are nice, but not a game changer.

Ignore cover should be -1 per token, I agree, but that's what LOS blocking terrain is for until that gets fixed. Besides, pathfinders are pretty easy to take out, TBH. They will be standing still at 36", and they have the same defense as gaurdsmen. They die to a stiff breeze. Now they can turtle in cover, but that also severely limits their effectiveness. Markerlights are very effective when in the right position, but they are also not too hard to avoid/kill.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Big Ass and Medium Arse Mechs?-Check!

Samurai like shoulder pads?-Check!

Goes by a Brothers of Arms/Warrior Code that uses blades?-Bushido-Check!

As Advance Tech that no one have?-Check!( like all the anime where japanese tech is involved).

As "Shaolin/Taoiste Monks" authoritative figures?-Check!

Heavely Inspired by Japanese and Anime culture?-Double Check!

Is that a Problem?-fething nope, it only makes them different from the rest of the 40k galaxy, wich is cool.

Exactly! Tau battlesuits have more than a passing resemblance to Gundam, and IIRC Farsight is a reference to one of their characters; but that doesn't mean that you have to be a Hello Kitty-loving "wiaboo" to play them. And it's not like the other 40K armies don't have historic/pop culture references of their own. See: Necron warriors, Vindicator tank, Ragnarok tank, Inquisition, Commissars, Death Corps of Krieg, Force Weapons, I could go on..

Alcibiades wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 pumpinchimp wrote:
I like Tau because they are the most Sci-Fi of the factions.

What do you mean by "most sci fi?" Maybe in a Star Trek space opera or Orweillian Dystopia sense. But if you like Jack Vance Dying Earth style techno-barbarism then Space Marines are most sci fi. Weird Tales Magazine classic 60s paperback pulp scifi? Reach for AdMech. More of a near future Enders game/Starship Troopers scifi fan? IG is the most sci fi. Star Wars space monks with hand wavey tech? Back to Marines. Heinlein robots and cyborgs mixed with some classic early 50s Death Rays and Doom Engines and Heat Beams? Necrons are most sci fi.

40k is a big big place. So is sci fi.

40k actually falls under the fantasy genre (science fantasy to be specific), not sci fi. (sci fi does not allow supernatural elements). That is also why the Tau stand out so much, as they are the only faction without supernatural themes.

Arguably, any setting with FTL travel is fantasy.

If we are going to be technical, Science Fiction is a sub-section of the larger Fantasy genre.

Backfire wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I don't know.. considering how they were depicted in DoW and all of the huge mecha suit that are available and coming out for Tau I would say the anime comparison is warranted.

But this is part of the problem. Originally Tau were Mech, not MechA. Humanoidform battlesuits were only one aspect of Tau war machine. Now, they're becoming Mecha cliche this and Gundam that. It's just lame, no imagination, lets just design new ever bigger battlesuits!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SDFarsight wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Anyway, some of the Tau hates comes from their hypocritical actions. They say everything is for the Greater Good and they seem like good guys on the outside, but once you get past that they're just as ruthless and twisted as every other faction. The difference is the other factions aren't trying to make apologies or cover up what they do. They do what they do because they must. The Tau are no different, they just hide their smut under shiny clean armor and honeyed words.

But isn't that part of their appeal? As I thought part of their earlier criticism was that they were allegedly not 'grimdark' enough for 40K.

Exactly. Tau are space opera Human cliches projected to an alien race:

-Short-lived and physically weak but dynamic and ambitious
-have grown enormously in power in only short time
-very innovative, high technology
-not "warrior born" but nevertheless quite adept in ways of war
-preach their naive ideology to everyone whilst knowing nothing about dark secrets of the Galaxy.

It is part of why people find Tau annoying: they are designed to be. It's like role reversal from Humans vs Romulans (or Minbari or...)

That's an interesting take on it. When I first saw the Tau I thought they have a narrative equivalent to America being:

-relatively short history and the old powers not expecting its rise.
-Technologically advanced
- Wants to spread "democracy". (Yes the Tau aren't democratic, but their government is certainly more inclusive than the Imperium).

Like how the Tyranids are a narrative equivalent to the Mongol invasion during the middle ages- the established religious fighting gets disturbed by an outsider who comes in vast numbers from outside the known world.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
(sci fi does not allow supernatural elements)

Yes it does, haven't you ever seen a scifi story with psychic powers or magic guns? Even stuff like Mass Effect or Star Trek has "impossible" (supernatural) elements such as Element Zero and the transporter/replicator technology. Unless you're trying to say that the only true scifi is scifi so hard that it's a history textbook?

 j31c3n wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
(sci fi does not allow supernatural elements)

Yes it does, haven't you ever seen a scifi story with psychic powers or magic guns? Even stuff like Mass Effect or Star Trek has "impossible" (supernatural) elements such as Element Zero and the transporter/replicator technology. Unless you're trying to say that the only true scifi is scifi so hard that it's a history textbook?

Indeed, and let's not forget Star Wars.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If you are having trouble with tau not moving, you need more terrain. You should also play maelstrom missions. If they are hunkering down in a corner, then stay out of line of sight and win on objectives. It may be boring once or twice, but if you don't make them change their strategy to win games, you won't ever see a different list.

Also, why not include the space marines, admech, and knights? How about the fact that I.G., space wolves, grey knights, and blood angels all have divination?

Stay out of LOS huh? what about those wonderful missile pods that don't have to have LOS to fire. And the PLETHORA of ignores cover they get.

SMS are a single weapon system, and are not really that cost effective. We have them on our HS tanks and our overpriced DT. They are nice, but not a game changer.

Twin-linked Smart Missile Systems are also the standard loadout on Broadsides, which commonly get fielded with HYMP.

So, 4 shots at S7 AP4 which with Markerlights can Ignore Cover and 4 shots at S5 AP5 which can ignore LoS restrictions and have Ignores Cover as standard on a platform that can be upgraded to have a Support System and 2x Missile Drones--which grant you an additional pair of S7 AP4 shots per Missile Drone.

Ignore cover should be -1 per token, I agree

Negative. That's still patently ridiculous with the availability of Markerlights.
Yeah yeah yeah, I know--"Markerlights still have to hit!". But that's all they have to do in order to provide the benefit they grant you.
Look at the Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus combination stuff. There is a single Ignores Cover weapon(Gatling Rocket Launcher on the Icarus Array) and a few ways to subtract from Cover Saves, which are squad upgrades(the Omnispex subtracts 1 from the Cover Saves of any target a Skitarii squad is firing at and is basically mandatory) or weapons only available on certain platforms(in Skitarii the only option for the Heavy Phospher Blaster is the Onager Dunecrawler--which also provides the Icarus Array).

Luminagen weapons which set your target on fire don't grant Ignores Cover, excepting a specific formation("Elimination Maniple" grants Ignores Cover to the Kataphron Destroyers within the Formation when the Kastelan Robots have successfully wounded the targets). They require you not only to hit with a BS3 platform but also cause an unsaved Wound with the weapon.

I've suggested elsewhere, more or less tongue in cheek, to make Markerlights cost points or other nonsense but the reality of it is that at best?
They should be causing -1 to a Cover Save, adding +1 Ballistic Skill, and instead of the silliness of continually stacking?
Markerlights should add additional range to weapons being fired at the target alongside of rerolling failed To Hit or To Wound rolls. Not "Ignores Cover". Never that, never for what Markerlights are.

I also put forward the idea that the Blacksun Filter should grant a -1 to Cover Saves, stackable with the Markerlight bonus, meaning that your mandatory Blacksun Filter on your various Suits suddenly becomes a heck of a lot more useful.

but that's what LOS blocking terrain is for until that gets fixed. Besides, pathfinders are pretty easy to take out, TBH. They will be standing still at 36", and they have the same defense as gaurdsmen. They die to a stiff breeze.

They certainly do.

But they have a 36" range. So it requires weapons that have an inordinately higher range to effectively deal with them. Those weapons usually are also the things that get used for, say, killing Suits.

Or it requires a Deep Striking unit, which can get exposed to the Early Warning Override and shot to crap before it ever gets to do anything.

Now they can turtle in cover, but that also severely limits their effectiveness.

"Turtling in cover" in no way severely limits their effectiveness, with the exception being if you've Gone to Ground or you kept them inside of your deployment zone or deployed them in a poor place.

A first turn of the first round of the game when being deployed with the long sides as deployment zones versus short sides as deployment zones with multiple units of Pathfinders deployed in a forward position, coupled with Broadsides toting HYMPs and Riptides Novaing can be as obnoxiously destructive as any Drop Pod or Skyhammer or whatever list potentially can be.

Markerlights are very effective when in the right position, but they are also not too hard to avoid/kill.

Riiiiiiiiight, because a 36" range "if it hits you're boned" weapon is "not too hard to avoid".
To put it rather politely?
Look at a single Realm of Battle tile. That's 24 inches. Markerlights have range on a tile and a half for anyone playing on RoB.

So that's a tile and a half of "I can't go there unless I get really lucky and he whiffs out his shooting from these units"(which is ALWAYS the first unit to fire from any Tau player I've fought) because otherwise the other units in the army can utilize those Markerlight Tokens to boost up their BS or get Ignores Cover against the target unit.

the_scotsman wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Ignores Cover is an order and requires you to be within range of an officer and to pass a Leadership test.

The Leman Russ variant that ignores cover is strength 6 AP 4 and can only reach to 36". It is also extremely expensive and can only snapfire its other weapons.

Wyverns are not a bad unit

Hydras are an anti air vehicle. Almost every faction has an AA platform. Tau just get it on almost everything.

Aegis can be used by anyone. Try again.

Inquisitor Coteaz. A 100 point upgrade to give a single unit interceptor. Compared to the Tau "lolz intercept everything"

Eldar are not even Imperial.

Mechanicus is Mechanicus and thats a formation, you have to take things to get it, you dont just get it automatically. You may also have noted that I specifically mentioned non Adeptus Mechanicus and non Space Marine stuff - stop judging us all by two armies.

Grey Knights... They have a flyer. Wow.

Tau ignores cover requires them to hit with (2 or 3 I don't remember) Markerlights, or on missile pods which are I believe AP5.

They don't get Interceptor/Skyfire on everything, it's an upgrade for a couple of their suits and/or tanks. On a riptide, for instance, they can choose two upgrades which can be extra guns or skyfire/interceptor.

100 points for a dude in artificer armor with a demonhammer two psychic levels in any discipline who grants interceptor to everyone is a fuckin bargain. There's only really one or two units worth granting interceptor in an army anyway. You wanna pay 200 points to put interceptor on your whole tau list be my guest I'll just laugh at you.

Since when does IG give a flying Frick about tau anyway? What, is he gonna pay 150 points to fire one BS4 S10 shot at you a turn? Oooh, scary. Nuke his pathfinders with a wyvern turn one and roll over him.

Well, let us see shall we? We in the Guard used to be the gunline army of the game, then this thing happened. Some wee-a-boo space commies came along and stole our gunline meta. But we still had our tanks. Then the wee-a-boo space commies brought a whole gak-ton of anti armour stuff that they could pack into their wee-a-boo space suits. Then they brought these things called Marker Lights which basically invalidated everything that we in the Guard have save wise and allowed them to shoot the hell out of us. Then they brought this big ass super mecha suit which is just about unkillable unless we bring a Shadowsword.
Then they complained that they where not good enough.
Yes, the super space commies army with better weapons than us and far more flexibility and manoeuvrability complained that they where not good enough and needed more mary sue models to make them better.

Your suits can take skyfire and/or interceptor? Sweet. We get one - ONE - unit with Skyfire and it is overpriced for what it does.
Wyverns? How the actual feck are they supposed to get within range without being nuked off the table? Eradicators? Well, theres a laugh for you. And it is hardly just one shot anyway, it is more like a ton of BS 5 ignores cover shots.

 SDFarsight wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Big Ass and Medium Arse Mechs?-Check!

Samurai like shoulder pads?-Check!

Goes by a Brothers of Arms/Warrior Code that uses blades?-Bushido-Check!

As Advance Tech that no one have?-Check!( like all the anime where japanese tech is involved).

As "Shaolin/Taoiste Monks" authoritative figures?-Check!

Heavely Inspired by Japanese and Anime culture?-Double Check!

Is that a Problem?-fething nope, it only makes them different from the rest of the 40k galaxy, wich is cool.

Exactly! Tau battlesuits have more than a passing resemblance to Gundam, and IIRC Farsight is a reference to one of their characters; but that doesn't mean that you have to be a Hello Kitty-loving "wiaboo" to play them. And it's not like the other 40K armies don't have historic/pop culture references of their own. See: Necron warriors, Vindicator tank, Ragnarok tank, Inquisition, Commissars, Death Corps of Krieg, Force Weapons, I could go on..

Nah Tau isn't gundam, they're macross.

Spetulhu wrote:

DaPino wrote:
I
Also, Markerlights. feth markelights. They're the dumbest pieces of wargear any army has. It just gets rid of certain tactical elements entirely.

But it adds the tactic where you kill those soft Markerlight units so they can't buff the Riptide. They have 4+ armor at the most and die when hit by a stiff breeze. Or possibly a heavy flamer.

bs. Targetting enemy key units is already a tactic, regardless of the existence of markerlights.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Baldeagle91 wrote:Oh ffs OP.... it's called banter.

You know how everyone says guard use flashlight and can't hit the side of a barn, like how we call ultrasmurfs space marines, like how we pick on necron and eldar players, like how we pick on etc etc etc.

It has gone way past 'banter'. People are unironically hateful of Tau. You can see here and in other threads regarding the new codex. But it's quite amusing to see some people almost frothing in anger about Tau stuff. It makes no sense... to become irate about non-real stuff.

DaPino wrote:
Also, Markerlights. feth markelights. They're the dumbest pieces of wargear any army has. It just gets rid of certain tactical elements entirely.

markerlights make the most sense, of all Tau arsenal. Even we use nowadays.
http://www.jenoptik.com/us-military-compact-laser-rangefinder

Hating markerlights, but not Divination, makes no sense.

A rangefinder equipped with a laserlight does not suddenly make every building between you and the target disappear as long as you can draw line of sight to it. And it doesn't allow you to better aim at a target you couldn't aim at in the first place (e.g. flyers). Nor does it make you more accurate when you're shooting wildly because something is storming at you (overwatch). A range finder fired from another unit, that's obviously in another location, would not even help you be a better marksman.

And even if all of those were the case, it does not matter one bit. You want to know why? Because this is a game and it should not be compared to the real world. If an element deprives the game of depth, then it does not matter how much sense it would or wouldn't make in the real world, it is still bad for the game. And since multiple armies rely on cover saves to be even remotely decent, I do consider markerlights to be such an element.

Has Tau-hate even existed since 5th ed?
Been playing since 4th and the only time I ever noticed 'Tau-hate' was during 5th.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Has Tau-hate even existed since 5th ed?
Been playing since 4th and the only time I ever noticed 'Tau-hate' was during 5th.

People were furious when a new army was released instead of other dexes being updated. Can't recall what edition this was but tau have been hated since release.

 master of ordinance wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Ignores Cover is an order and requires you to be within range of an officer and to pass a Leadership test.

The Leman Russ variant that ignores cover is strength 6 AP 4 and can only reach to 36". It is also extremely expensive and can only snapfire its other weapons.

Wyverns are not a bad unit

Hydras are an anti air vehicle. Almost every faction has an AA platform. Tau just get it on almost everything.

Aegis can be used by anyone. Try again.

Inquisitor Coteaz. A 100 point upgrade to give a single unit interceptor. Compared to the Tau "lolz intercept everything"

Eldar are not even Imperial.

Mechanicus is Mechanicus and thats a formation, you have to take things to get it, you dont just get it automatically. You may also have noted that I specifically mentioned non Adeptus Mechanicus and non Space Marine stuff - stop judging us all by two armies.

Grey Knights... They have a flyer. Wow.

Tau ignores cover requires them to hit with (2 or 3 I don't remember) Markerlights, or on missile pods which are I believe AP5.

They don't get Interceptor/Skyfire on everything, it's an upgrade for a couple of their suits and/or tanks. On a riptide, for instance, they can choose two upgrades which can be extra guns or skyfire/interceptor.

100 points for a dude in artificer armor with a demonhammer two psychic levels in any discipline who grants interceptor to everyone is a fuckin bargain. There's only really one or two units worth granting interceptor in an army anyway. You wanna pay 200 points to put interceptor on your whole tau list be my guest I'll just laugh at you.

Since when does IG give a flying Frick about tau anyway? What, is he gonna pay 150 points to fire one BS4 S10 shot at you a turn? Oooh, scary. Nuke his pathfinders with a wyvern turn one and roll over him.

Well, let us see shall we? We in the Guard used to be the gunline army of the game, then this thing happened. Some wee-a-boo space commies came along and stole our gunline meta. But we still had our tanks. Then the wee-a-boo space commies brought a whole gak-ton of anti armour stuff that they could pack into their wee-a-boo space suits. Then they brought these things called Marker Lights which basically invalidated everything that we in the Guard have save wise and allowed them to shoot the hell out of us. Then they brought this big ass super mecha suit which is just about unkillable unless we bring a Shadowsword.
Then they complained that they where not good enough.
Yes, the super space commies army with better weapons than us and far more flexibility and manoeuvrability complained that they where not good enough and needed more mary sue models to make them better.

Your suits can take skyfire and/or interceptor? Sweet. We get one - ONE - unit with Skyfire and it is overpriced for what it does.
Wyverns? How the actual feck are they supposed to get within range without being nuked off the table? Eradicators? Well, theres a laugh for you. And it is hardly just one shot anyway, it is more like a ton of BS 5 ignores cover shots.

because there can only be 1 type of shooting army ?
everything in the tau list has skyfire ? laugh when you don't bring any fliers as they wasted a buttload of points and critical slots for something that now has no effect , unless your letting people list tailor against you , which would be dumb

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
If you are having trouble with tau not moving, you need more terrain. You should also play maelstrom missions. If they are hunkering down in a corner, then stay out of line of sight and win on objectives. It may be boring once or twice, but if you don't make them change their strategy to win games, you won't ever see a different list.

Also, why not include the space marines, admech, and knights? How about the fact that I.G., space wolves, grey knights, and blood angels all have divination?

Stay out of LOS huh? what about those wonderful missile pods that don't have to have LOS to fire. And the PLETHORA of ignores cover they get.

SMS are a single weapon system, and are not really that cost effective. We have them on our HS tanks and our overpriced DT. They are nice, but not a game changer.

Twin-linked Smart Missile Systems are also the standard loadout on Broadsides, which commonly get fielded with HYMP.

So, 4 shots at S7 AP4 which with Markerlights can Ignore Cover and 4 shots at S5 AP5 which can ignore LoS restrictions and have Ignores Cover as standard on a platform that can be upgraded to have a Support System and 2x Missile Drones--which grant you an additional pair of S7 AP4 shots per Missile Drone.
Wow I'm absent minded today. And yes, the HYPM is OP, we agree on that.

Ignore cover should be -1 per token, I agree

Negative. That's still patently ridiculous with the availability of Markerlights.
Yeah yeah yeah, I know--"Markerlights still have to hit!". But that's all they have to do in order to provide the benefit they grant you.
Look at the Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus combination stuff. There is a single Ignores Cover weapon(Gatling Rocket Launcher on the Icarus Array) and a few ways to subtract from Cover Saves, which are squad upgrades(the Omnispex subtracts 1 from the Cover Saves of any target a Skitarii squad is firing at and is basically mandatory) or weapons only available on certain platforms(in Skitarii the only option for the Heavy Phospher Blaster is the Onager Dunecrawler--which also provides the Icarus Array).

Luminagen weapons which set your target on fire don't grant Ignores Cover, excepting a specific formation("Elimination Maniple" grants Ignores Cover to the Kataphron Destroyers within the Formation when the Kastelan Robots have successfully wounded the targets). They require you not only to hit with a BS3 platform but also cause an unsaved Wound with the weapon.

I've suggested elsewhere, more or less tongue in cheek, to make Markerlights cost points or other nonsense but the reality of it is that at best?
They should be causing -1 to a Cover Save, adding +1 Ballistic Skill, and instead of the silliness of continually stacking?
Markerlights should add additional range to weapons being fired at the target alongside of rerolling failed To Hit or To Wound rolls. Not "Ignores Cover". Never that, never for what Markerlights are.

I also put forward the idea that the Blacksun Filter should grant a -1 to Cover Saves, stackable with the Markerlight bonus, meaning that your mandatory Blacksun Filter on your various Suits suddenly becomes a heck of a lot more useful.

Need I remind you that it has always been like that. It works like that. I mean, you can cap the BS to 5, that's reasonable, but just making them worse that they have ever been for no adiquite reason is ridiculous

but that's what LOS blocking terrain is for until that gets fixed. Besides, pathfinders are pretty easy to take out, TBH. They will be standing still at 36", and they have the same defense as gaurdsmen. They die to a stiff breeze.

They certainly do.

But they have a 36" range. So it requires weapons that have an inordinately higher range to effectively deal with them. Those weapons usually are also the things that get used for, say, killing Suits.

Or it requires a Deep Striking unit, which can get exposed to the Early Warning Override and shot to crap before it ever gets to do anything.
Anything with equivalent or better range you mean, especially those who can shoot after moving. And if you head at them with unimporant units, you can distract them for your more valuble units, and take some out in the process.

Now they can turtle in cover, but that also severely limits their effectiveness.

"Turtling in cover" in no way severely limits their effectiveness, with the exception being if you've Gone to Ground or you kept them inside of your deployment zone or deployed them in a poor place.

A first turn of the first round of the game when being deployed with the long sides as deployment zones versus short sides as deployment zones with multiple units of Pathfinders deployed in a forward position, coupled with Broadsides toting HYMPs and Riptides Novaing can be as obnoxiously destructive as any Drop Pod or Skyhammer or whatever list potentially can be.
If they just stay in one place, it is very possible to stay out of their range or out of line of sight, especilly as it's a heavy weapon. It's what I do, and it works for me. And the important parts of that are riptide and HYMP things that are OP. So of cource they are even more powerful when buffed.

Markerlights are very effective when in the right position, but they are also not too hard to avoid/kill.

Riiiiiiiiight, because a 36" range "if it hits you're boned" weapon is "not too hard to avoid".
To put it rather politely?
Look at a single Realm of Battle tile. That's 24 inches. Markerlights have range on a tile and a half for anyone playing on RoB.

So that's a tile and a half of "I can't go there unless I get really lucky and he whiffs out his shooting from these units"(which is ALWAYS the first unit to fire from any Tau player I've fought) because otherwise the other units in the army can utilize those Markerlight Tokens to boost up their BS or get Ignores Cover against the target unit.

Hardly. Only if the firepower aimed at you is powerful enough to wipe the unit completely. And other than things that are OP (riptide, HYMP) that usualy mean multiple units, in which case you just allowed your units in the corssfire between 3+ units. It's pretty obvious when that happens.

kambien wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Ignores Cover is an order and requires you to be within range of an officer and to pass a Leadership test.

The Leman Russ variant that ignores cover is strength 6 AP 4 and can only reach to 36". It is also extremely expensive and can only snapfire its other weapons.

Wyverns are not a bad unit

Hydras are an anti air vehicle. Almost every faction has an AA platform. Tau just get it on almost everything.

Aegis can be used by anyone. Try again.

Inquisitor Coteaz. A 100 point upgrade to give a single unit interceptor. Compared to the Tau "lolz intercept everything"

Eldar are not even Imperial.

Mechanicus is Mechanicus and thats a formation, you have to take things to get it, you dont just get it automatically. You may also have noted that I specifically mentioned non Adeptus Mechanicus and non Space Marine stuff - stop judging us all by two armies.

Grey Knights... They have a flyer. Wow.

Tau ignores cover requires them to hit with (2 or 3 I don't remember) Markerlights, or on missile pods which are I believe AP5.

They don't get Interceptor/Skyfire on everything, it's an upgrade for a couple of their suits and/or tanks. On a riptide, for instance, they can choose two upgrades which can be extra guns or skyfire/interceptor.

100 points for a dude in artificer armor with a demonhammer two psychic levels in any discipline who grants interceptor to everyone is a fuckin bargain. There's only really one or two units worth granting interceptor in an army anyway. You wanna pay 200 points to put interceptor on your whole tau list be my guest I'll just laugh at you.

Since when does IG give a flying Frick about tau anyway? What, is he gonna pay 150 points to fire one BS4 S10 shot at you a turn? Oooh, scary. Nuke his pathfinders with a wyvern turn one and roll over him.

Well, let us see shall we? We in the Guard used to be the gunline army of the game, then this thing happened. Some wee-a-boo space commies came along and stole our gunline meta. But we still had our tanks. Then the wee-a-boo space commies brought a whole gak-ton of anti armour stuff that they could pack into their wee-a-boo space suits. Then they brought these things called Marker Lights which basically invalidated everything that we in the Guard have save wise and allowed them to shoot the hell out of us. Then they brought this big ass super mecha suit which is just about unkillable unless we bring a Shadowsword.
Then they complained that they where not good enough.
Yes, the super space commies army with better weapons than us and far more flexibility and manoeuvrability complained that they where not good enough and needed more mary sue models to make them better.

Your suits can take skyfire and/or interceptor? Sweet. We get one - ONE - unit with Skyfire and it is overpriced for what it does.
Wyverns? How the actual feck are they supposed to get within range without being nuked off the table? Eradicators? Well, theres a laugh for you. And it is hardly just one shot anyway, it is more like a ton of BS 5 ignores cover shots.

because there can only be 1 type of shooting army ?
everything in the tau list has skyfire ? laugh when you don't bring any fliers as they wasted a buttload of points and critical slots for something that now has no effect , unless your letting people list tailor against you , which would be dumb

I never said that.
However all the Tau army does is take what the Imperial Guard's primary tactic and do it better. They castle and when anything gets close they just jump away and fly off. Getting within effective range is damn near impossible and assaulting them is an utter joke.

There are ways to fix that, and it should be fixed (cannoticaly it's the exact opposite of tau tactics). The number one thing is to make our DT not stupidly expensive.

 master of ordinance wrote:

kambien wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The Ignores Cover is an order and requires you to be within range of an officer and to pass a Leadership test.

The Leman Russ variant that ignores cover is strength 6 AP 4 and can only reach to 36". It is also extremely expensive and can only snapfire its other weapons.

Wyverns are not a bad unit

Hydras are an anti air vehicle. Almost every faction has an AA platform. Tau just get it on almost everything.

Aegis can be used by anyone. Try again.

Inquisitor Coteaz. A 100 point upgrade to give a single unit interceptor. Compared to the Tau "lolz intercept everything"

Eldar are not even Imperial.

Mechanicus is Mechanicus and thats a formation, you have to take things to get it, you dont just get it automatically. You may also have noted that I specifically mentioned non Adeptus Mechanicus and non Space Marine stuff - stop judging us all by two armies.

Grey Knights... They have a flyer. Wow.

Tau ignores cover requires them to hit with (2 or 3 I don't remember) Markerlights, or on missile pods which are I believe AP5.

They don't get Interceptor/Skyfire on everything, it's an upgrade for a couple of their suits and/or tanks. On a riptide, for instance, they can choose two upgrades which can be extra guns or skyfire/interceptor.

100 points for a dude in artificer armor with a demonhammer two psychic levels in any discipline who grants interceptor to everyone is a fuckin bargain. There's only really one or two units worth granting interceptor in an army anyway. You wanna pay 200 points to put interceptor on your whole tau list be my guest I'll just laugh at you.

Since when does IG give a flying Frick about tau anyway? What, is he gonna pay 150 points to fire one BS4 S10 shot at you a turn? Oooh, scary. Nuke his pathfinders with a wyvern turn one and roll over him.

Well, let us see shall we? We in the Guard used to be the gunline army of the game, then this thing happened. Some wee-a-boo space commies came along and stole our gunline meta. But we still had our tanks. Then the wee-a-boo space commies brought a whole gak-ton of anti armour stuff that they could pack into their wee-a-boo space suits. Then they brought these things called Marker Lights which basically invalidated everything that we in the Guard have save wise and allowed them to shoot the hell out of us. Then they brought this big ass super mecha suit which is just about unkillable unless we bring a Shadowsword.
Then they complained that they where not good enough.
Yes, the super space commies army with better weapons than us and far more flexibility and manoeuvrability complained that they where not good enough and needed more mary sue models to make them better.

Your suits can take skyfire and/or interceptor? Sweet. We get one - ONE - unit with Skyfire and it is overpriced for what it does.
Wyverns? How the actual feck are they supposed to get within range without being nuked off the table? Eradicators? Well, theres a laugh for you. And it is hardly just one shot anyway, it is more like a ton of BS 5 ignores cover shots.

because there can only be 1 type of shooting army ?
everything in the tau list has skyfire ? laugh when you don't bring any fliers as they wasted a buttload of points and critical slots for something that now has no effect , unless your letting people list tailor against you , which would be dumb

I never said that.
However all the Tau army does is take what the Imperial Guard's primary tactic and do it better. They castle and when anything gets close they just jump away and fly off. Getting within effective range is damn near impossible and assaulting them is an utter joke.

I thought that they're just stronger in different ways. For example the Imperial Guard don't have to choose between anti-tank or anti-infantry fire, they can just place down S8/9 large blast ordinance templates because reasons.

Edit: I forgot there is the over-charge on the ion cannon, but even that needs to take a Gets Hot test.

I think Tau should never get more than -1 to cover and give up overwatch to intercept or skyfire.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I think Tau should never get more than -1 to cover and give up overwatch to intercept or skyfire.

... Why?

For the purpose of general external balance.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
They have nothing in common with Japan. At all. Imperial Japan has much more in common culturally with the Imperium of Man. I mean suicide attacks, worship of an Emperor, love of mecha, sisters of battle waifu crap.

The Tau have more in common with the Classical Greek Republic, Star Trek Federation, and Brave New World all shmushed together. Tau aren't even communist their utilitarians.

Visually they are Asian looking. That's about it.

Edit
Oh they've also been given a Japanese/Asian accent in the games as well.

....The Imperium is nothing like the Imperial Japanese Empire. It's literally the Holy Roman Empire in SPAAAACE.

Say what you will anime fan.

@Some othe rguy
Also to anyone who says Science Fiction is fantasy go to any school or literary course and say that. I fething dare you. Let's see how long you last.

There are types of science fiction that blend elements of fantasy into them and are called space operas or science fantasy. However there are hard science fiction which is based on speculative science of today. If you try and argue that even hard science fiction is "fantasy" because the events are fictional then every single book would be labeled fantasy since everything is made up except for history textbooks.

But I assume your not some sort of illiterate and can tell the difference between a genre classification and the real life definition of what a story is without getting the two confused. I hope. I've been wrong before though. Otherwise we would call any book a fantasy book with your logic. Because your confusing two different uses of the word fantasy.