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Ahh, the glory days of 5th Edition when Da Boyz were runnin' rampant all over! People would hear I play Orks, and start guffawing and complaining about Nobz and Moar Boyz. I'd then proceed to place things on the table like a Warphead, 3 full units of Flash Gitz, and a few trukks with Meganobz in them. People would start laughing and pointing and calling me names, and not letting me play any Warhammer games. Well they did actually, but people thought i had something wrong with me. Then I'd slap them silly, and people learned to fear the Flash Gitz.

Preceding that, I did play the Green Tide and Nobstar lists, and not only was it easy to play...but most people would get upset. While it is my goal to crush my enemies, drive them before me and hear the lamentations of their women...I think in a social (non tournament) setting there is a bit of a social contract to play a fun game. I didn't like seeing people roll their eyes when they heard I was playing Orks. I decided to play my favorite units (FLASH GITZ!) and get really, really good at them.

So I built an entirely Converted/Forge World Death Guard army. People complained about Heldrakes and Nurgle Bikers.

I then decided to start a Necron army. I think we know where thats come around to now.

So Adepticus Mechanicus came out. OMG I can make a Skitarii Army and include a Knight Titan and Giant Robots and...oh. People hate the War Cohort...even though it plays out in my minds eye the Mechanicus novel.

So, here I sit tinkering a bit with my Ork army again. I really hate the new Mob Rule...and can I compete against Invisible and Fortuned Wraithknights with Orks? I got clobbered with it playing a fine tuned Necron list. I was the only one that even got close to wounding it, I made it take a FNP roll a couple of times.

My final thought, is that 40K is a mess. I tinker every so often with the Admech and Orks, but the wind's really gone out of my sails. I'm way more excited about Malifaux and Frostgrave. Here is to hoping for a CSM book that isn't awful or they redo the Ork codex. Hopefully they make the Clans matter.

I'm a guard player and I can see this becoming a reality situation inside the next twelve months. I can see us being granted a particular overpowered mechanized formation. If this were to happen I think I would be much more inclined to play pick up games. However as I usually only play in a small friendly group, I wouldn't run broke un-fluffy lists at all as they only make for one sided boring games. However, I would enjoy it if my regular fluffy units were given a small helpful boost.

I'd accept the power, and purge xeno scum!!


FOR THE GLORY OF THE EMPEROR!!

 Melissia wrote:
... how do you think you would react?

The hype for your army builds up, some really cool ideas for new units, you get hopeful for new rules, etc... then bam-- you realize that your codex is the most broken thing in 40k, at least until the next release. There's plenty of brokenness if you just play powerful units and ignore the lore, but even playing a lore-friendly army you'll still be more competitive than the rest of the game. And at the same time, everyone hates you for the army you play, even if you've been playing it for a very long time.

Will you stop playing the army out of protest? Will you keep playing, but try to tone it down? Will you keep playing as a lore-friendly army? Will you abuse the hell out of it?


edit: And just to be clear, this isn't intended to be yet another thread where people whine about Eldar. It's a hypothetical question about every other army instead.

I don't want my main 40k army (Guard) to be as OP as Eldar. I want Guard to be able to take on most lists and have a reasonable chance of winning without major ally shenanigans. If I could have that with the 7th ed Codex I'd be cool with that.

But if it did come to that... I'd enter a tournament and shout at Eldar/Necron players "WHO'S DYING NOW?!".

 Melissia wrote:
... how do you think you would react?

The hype for your army builds up, some really cool ideas for new units, you get hopeful for new rules, etc... then bam-- you realize that your codex is the most broken thing in 40k, at least until the next release. There's plenty of brokenness if you just play powerful units and ignore the lore, but even playing a lore-friendly army you'll still be more competitive than the rest of the game. And at the same time, everyone hates you for the army you play, even if you've been playing it for a very long time.

Will you stop playing the army out of protest? Will you keep playing, but try to tone it down? Will you keep playing as a lore-friendly army? Will you abuse the hell out of it?


edit: And just to be clear, this isn't intended to be yet another thread where people whine about Eldar. It's a hypothetical question about every other army instead.

I'd probably react the same way I did with my Eldar, which is to largely set them aside. I started collecting my Eldar at the tail end of 4E, and built and played it mostly during 5E. Unfortunately, as 6E came around and the new Eldar codex came out, an army with half a dozen Wave Serpents and scatterlasers galore was not something most people wanted to deal with and not something I really wanted to play and exploit, but didn't really want to buy enough new stuff to make a different army, and so largely just shelved the army, and the 7E book basically has done nothing to make me want to take it back out very often.

I have a difficult time seeing where it would be possible in the same ways, if say, my CSM's were suddenly made absurdly overpowered, I have a feeling I wouldn't own the broken stuff anyway, nor would it fit into my Iron Warriors army (my initial gut feeling would be that it would likely be some sort of Cult/Marked or Daemon unit). If this were not the case however, I have enough CSM stuff however that I can build a large variety of stuff, unlike my Eldar (despite having 4K points of Eldar, it's mostly lots of the same stuff). and probably would just build armies avoiding the most egregious stuff. Likewise with my IG and DKoK, I really run them based around a singular principle in each, in that I typically look simply to fit as many tanks in as possible just because I like tanks in my "codex" IG army, and my DKoK army I just fill it with as many Grenadiers as I can because I like the models. I have a difficult time seeing either becoming absurdly broken as they're not candidates to receive any absurd resiliency benefits nor ridiculous firepower upgrades the way say, Jetbikes or Wraithguard received, but again, would largely build the armies around the same concepts and avoiding the most egregious broken items.


TL;DR build lists around avoiding particularly egregious units/weapons/formations/etc.

No army has ever been as powerful as people "say" Eldar are. Including Eldar, currently.

The internet is just wrong. Eldar aren't even the top army in 40k right now by actual metrics.

It's just the typical hyperbolic crying and gnashing of teeth that forums like this are built upon.

I'd probably try and make it a good fight for my opponent with my orks. After curb stomping my buddy who I can't beat once or twice. I need to win a few out of our 20+ games in the last few months after all. In all seriousness I'd try to have fun while letting my opponent do the same. After all that is why I play in the first place.

14 ppm Helbrutes. Could totally see this happen.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
No army has ever been as powerful as people "say" Eldar are. Including Eldar, currently.

The internet is just wrong. Eldar aren't even the top army in 40k right now by actual metrics.

It's just the typical hyperbolic crying and gnashing of teeth that forums like this are built upon.

What metrics do you use to judge that? They certainly seem to consistently place very highly, particularly as far as armies that aren't composed of things from multiple different armies go.

Also keep in mind, there a vast difference between tournament play and pickup play. Most tournaments have limits on detachments, houserules on things like D weapons and Invisibility, and dramatically modified missions, just about all of which impact Eldar more than most others, and they still do very well.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
No army has ever been as powerful as people "say" Eldar are. Including Eldar, currently.

The internet is just wrong. Eldar aren't even the top army in 40k right now by actual metrics.

It's just the typical hyperbolic crying and gnashing of teeth that forums like this are built upon.

Nah, your right. Scatbikes and Wraith Brigade are nothing at all, no problemo.

I rub my hands together and cackle in merchant like glee.

 master of ordinance wrote:
But, as with all Guard players I deserve it. It is about time that we had our turn in the spotlight.

...must not have been playing the game very long, leaf blower and hobby killer were disastrous IG lists.

As someone who has already experienced this phenomenon, I would play the "OP" army less often.

I loved playing my Grey Knights, until GW took away half of my options. Sure, the GK got some strong stuff, but the idea of playing essentially the same list every time is dreadfully boring to me.

And then my Necrons got awesome. To give some perspective, my Necrons consisted almost entirely of Warriors, Immortals, Destroyers, and Scarabs. I did have a pair of nightscythes and spiders, but that was largely it, because my collection consisted of the old 2E metals (proud to say I can field a full phalanx of metal warriors). And now even that has become powerful, due to the greater resilience Necrons have now. So, once again, I get bored with the army.

Fortunately, I still have many other armies I can use to keep me interests you in the game.

 Lobukia wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
But, as with all Guard players I deserve it. It is about time that we had our turn in the spotlight.

...must not have been playing the game very long, leaf blower and hobby killer were disastrous IG lists.

Aah, yet another poor deluded soul that believes that the Leaf Blower was the result of a pure guard codex. The Imperial Guard codex at that time was, on its own, only average. It was the abilities granted by allying with several inquisitorial units that took the Guard and ramped them up to the Leaf Blower level. I can assure you, as one whom did not take Inquisitorial allies at the time, that the Imperial Guard on their own at the time where only an average levelled army.

When I say spotlight I mean that a pure Imperial Guard army will be a viable choice again, for the first time in ages.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Aah, yet another poor deluded soul that believes that the Leaf Blower was the result of a pure guard codex. The Imperial Guard codex at that time was, on its own, only average. It was the abilities granted by allying with several inquisitorial units that took the Guard and ramped them up to the Leaf Blower level. I can assure you, as one whom did not take Inquisitorial allies at the time, that the Imperial Guard on their own at the time where only an average levelled army.

When I say spotlight I mean that a pure Imperial Guard army will be a viable choice again, for the first time in ages.

The actual leaf blower was also a 2500 point list, and didn't scale down very well.

I'm not sure I'd call it a non-pure IG list. The Inquisitor Lord from Demonhunters helped against deep strikers, but that was a nasty codex when it came out. I won plenty of tournaments with a pure IG list in those days.

I've been here with my Eldar army plaguing 3.5 to early 5th. I avoided spamming things people said we're OP. Also picked up dark eldar who were a bottom of the barrel army with a severely outdated codex. Had fun with both and won regularly with both. Would rather handicap myself a bit and give my opponent less reason to cry cheese than take full advantage of the best options, and annoy the opponent.

--

How long does something have to be OP before it stops being ok to field it?

And do new players have to pay a tax of sorts by playing something that underperforms for years before it is ok to play something powerful? You know, really wallow in a lousy codex for years thereby earning the right to play something OP and rub it into everyone else's faces. After all you suffered so it is ok now. How long before it is ok to do this?

Following up on that. If you are in the it is ok that I'm OP now because I payed my dues club, do you only get to make those who made you suffer suffer, or is it ok to make the new guy who mistakenly chose the formerly OP choice suffer? You know, make him pay for the sins of his fathers so to speak.

--

If you take your lumps without complaint when you're down I don't see a problem with doing your thing when you are up (though I applaud those who exercise restraint). If you grumble the whole time you're down, then revel when you're up, there is a whiff of hypocrisy in the air.

Bearing in mind it already happened, I'll let you know what I did.

Since my opponents are my friends or my relatives, I just ask them what they think is over the top, and build my army in such a way as to mitigate the cheese. Highlander army composition helps with this. I like my opponents and want them to have a good time, so I don't feel any shame in ditching some of the OP stuff, if it's all in the name of fun for all, what does it matter?

Obviously it's not a solution that can work for everyone, not everyone gets the luxury of regular opponents they are friends with, but it works for me!

 Polonius wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Aah, yet another poor deluded soul that believes that the Leaf Blower was the result of a pure guard codex. The Imperial Guard codex at that time was, on its own, only average. It was the abilities granted by allying with several inquisitorial units that took the Guard and ramped them up to the Leaf Blower level. I can assure you, as one whom did not take Inquisitorial allies at the time, that the Imperial Guard on their own at the time where only an average levelled army.

When I say spotlight I mean that a pure Imperial Guard army will be a viable choice again, for the first time in ages.

The actual leaf blower was also a 2500 point list, and didn't scale down very well.

I'm not sure I'd call it a non-pure IG list. The Inquisitor Lord from Demonhunters helped against deep strikers, but that was a nasty codex when it came out. I won plenty of tournaments with a pure IG list in those days.

Aye, that too. If you didnt want to face it then just playing a game below the stupid levels of points was usually enough.

Dozer Blades wrote:Honestly I have no sympathy for eldar players. The codex is grossly overpowered and there are no bad units. Go ahead and power game but don't expect anyone to say it's cool.

Eldar have grossly overpowered units, but are not overpowered as a whole. The "no bad units" complaint is a result of the Eldar having some of the best internal balance in the game, ans other armies severely lacking in that regard.

DarknessEternal wrote:No army has ever been as powerful as people "say" Eldar are. Including Eldar, currently.

The internet is just wrong. Eldar aren't even the top army in 40k right now by actual metrics.

It's just the typical hyperbolic crying and gnashing of teeth that forums like this are built upon.

Eldar may not be winning lots of major tournaments, but they still commonly place in the top eight or top five. At this year's NOVA, Eldar came in second. The reason they haven't been doing so well is because everyone knows what the tournament Eldar list looks like, and the really good players are able to counter and play around them. Unfortunately, not everyone is Nanu or Pajamapants.

Well, I play vanilla Marines in a Gladius, which is widely regarded as some level of OP here on dakka, but I don't use the demi-company, I don't get free transports, I don't use grav centurions, and I don't have a beatstick HQ.

I take three squads of bolter scouts in land speeder storms, I take 4 librarians in a conclave (admittedly a powerful formation) but they are all in power armor with no bling except for a combi-weapon, and my squads are 5 man and they go in drop pods so it's not like they're difficult to kill. I top it off with a couple stormtalons and a stormraven low on upgrades. The list is in my signature for the curious.

I think it's a fluffy and fun but competitive list and I've never had any complaints about it. The only time an opponent hems and haws at it is if they don't have any flyers of their own or if they don't have skyfire - but I'm always willing to give 1 or 2 of their units free skyfire for the game. I'm here to have fun, not crush people. I'm the kind of guy who will literally unexpectedly tell my opponent they can Deep Strike a unit not on their actual list that they have in their case in turn 3 or 4 if the game is going poorly for them. If we don't both have fun, then why the hell are we playing?

master of ordinance wrote:I would take my Imperial Guard and bathe in the salty tears of victory.

That's the spirit.

Dozer Blades wrote:Honestly I have no sympathy for eldar players. The codex is grossly overpowered and there are no bad units. Go ahead and power game but don't expect anyone to say it's cool.

And I have no sympathy for haters. If facing a casual opponent I play soft lists, if I face a known hater or problem player. I will unleash the cheese covered in gravy over a bed of french fries.

DoomShakaLaka wrote:I'd accept the power, and purge xeno scum!!

FOR THE GLORY OF THE EMPEROR!!

As a Xeno Scum I would face the challenge bring on the Mon keigh!

DarknessEternal wrote:No army has ever been as powerful as people "say" Eldar are. Including Eldar, currently.

The internet is just wrong. Eldar aren't even the top army in 40k right now by actual metrics.

It's just the typical hyperbolic crying and gnashing of teeth that forums like this are built upon.

Someone with a different view who can see the bigger picture.

TheCustomLime wrote:

I don't want my main 40k army (Guard) to be as OP as Eldar. I want Guard to be able to take on most lists and have a reasonable chance of winning without major ally shenanigans. If I could have that with the 7th ed Codex I'd be cool with that.

But if it did come to that... I'd enter a tournament and shout at Eldar/Necron players "WHO'S DYING NOW?!".

It is that kind of rubbing it in attitude that is unhealthy for the game. I take an evil pleasure in playing vicious lists against players like that. Everyone is bitching at Eldar but roles reversed would enjoy it playing an OP Codex. Yet they point the finger at Eldar players. The hypocrisy is incredible. I used to be more of a mellow player but that rampant attitude is what drives me to push back hard.

Next painting project. A Wraithknight giving the finger with a banner that says "Haters can suck the D"

being that I've never used formations, grav spam, or anything else regarded as broken in the marine dex, I figure I will be fine. then again, I'm the guy that used 3 assault squads minimum since 5th, ao I'm probably not a good way to judge this.

I ran suboptimal units all the time in 3rd and 5th because sometimes I COULD. In 6th and 7th, there has been no room for thematic lists or lists that deviate from the most efficient units possible for BA.

Never lost to Tau. Devastator cent-stars ram them into the ground with Hurricane Bolters and sheer GRAV before they shoot and podding Vanguards/'porting Assault Terminators is a favourite of mine against Orks.

Also, Chaplain Cassius is my Tyranid-burna, despite sucking so much, Initiative 6 is sweet.

Mahreens are pretty op as is

Since the question says if it was as op as people think eldar are.... you WOULDN'T be able to 'turn it down'
Basic units "Gah! OP not playing!"
Transports "Too op, no!"

Pretty much everyone here knows damn well that they would gladly accept the new codex changes and play them normally,because this is the new way that WH40K is going, everything will be apoc style and VERY strong, because this will boost model sales.

Would never get to use it. If Sisters became the most-OP Codex, the world would end moments after it rolled off the digital presses.

For Eldar I just didn't buy the new codex because it not only would have turned my army into D weapon spam, but would have made my army invalid to play because my army is ghost warriors and doesn't exactly match what is in the ghost warriors detachment in the new codex, and I cannot use wraithguard as troops anymore so couldn't even combine it with a CAD to keep playing my army. So I would have been just as screwed as my friends.

With DA I won't pull the double demi-company BS to get a ton of free razorbacks and overwhelm my friends, nor will I spam Ravenwing and I will keep focusing on Deathwing with them.

It is not hard to not be a dick just because your codex gets some overpowering stuff. Even eldar can be toned down if you want to do so. My group makes it easy because I have the biggest collection of everyone and everyone else is limited to 1 or 2 small armies, so our power creep is pretty minimal anyway and it is relatively easy to keep it that way.

I already do it to an extent with my Tau. I don't run Riptides and focus more on FIre Warriors, Hammerheads, Pathfinders, and Crisis Suits (feels like the fluff's bread and butter units). If Tau became even more powerful then I would go even more fluffy or make self imposed limiting factors like turning any Str D into Str 10 or not running "Taucurion" (or whatever the OP thing for Tau is) against weaker armies. My #1 goal is to match the power of my army with the power of my opponent so its a roughly fair fight and enjoyable for everyone.

Have been there (Q2 2013). I took 1 year before starting to proxy a Riptide, just to see if it was needed. Not so much.

If the new codex comes close to the new Eldar... people in my group will start to lax the ban on Eldar stuff - as we already have a SM player who loves his new codex (which is a bit less stronger than Eldar).But the Gk, Tyranids and DE players will complain a lot

Looks like I'll skip a couple months without using the good stuff until they are used to the codex

I play Dark Eldar primarily. I might feel a little guilty, but it wouldn't stop me from crushing everyone and ruling the local tournament scene with an iron fist.

It would be nice to have a codex so powerful that I would have room to experiment.