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 piping_piper wrote:

Ravenwing are tough, and become almost invincible if you don't keep your opponent honest. Not saying he's cheating, but it's hard to tell from your posts if you both understand all the loopholes.

Ah well, if someone cheats everything can become next to invincible that is already tough. But RW can be dealt easily with many armies if they come prepared to deal with such a threat. In a tournament enviroment is not nearly always the case as its all about matchups.

Even my mates CSM list with 3 Heldrakes and 3 Sicarans could grind an RW list to dust with ease.

 Runic wrote:


Even my mates CSM list with 3 Heldrakes and 3 Sicarans could grind an RW list to dust with ease.

Even? As if this was just some random list he always run that shows that even a weak list can beat RW?! really?!! This is tailor made kill bikes list as is. This proves absolutely nothing.

 Lobukia wrote:
Even? As if this was just some random list he always run that shows that even a weak list can beat RW?! really?!! This is tailor made kill bikes list as is. This proves absolutely nothing.

It does well against a ton of things, and he runs it actively. What you claim is simply incorrect. It destroys many things beside bikes, including Dark Eldar, Gladius Strike Forces, Eldar Jetbike Spam, most horde style armies among other things. Even against a Decurion it is quite good.

It is exactly that, a list he always runs, it isn't tailor made, and instead of proving nothing it proves quite a bit, actually. Especially that you can beat other armies with CSM, a claim so many say is untrue. ( This will ofcourse be followed by comments such as "well ofcourse if you take those units" - what did you expect, Mutilators? )

Might be a spam build, but what isn't these days, that if something is irrelevant. It's a solid allround list that can deal with multiple threats, and if you add some allied Daemons with some Screamers and a Grimoire Herald it really gets going ( or perhaps Nurgle flies. )

My KDK like to munch on Ravenwing, their tasty.

Khorne's Skull cannon, while its true the Ap is laughable( they could at least gave it AP4), its still a STR 8 Ignore cover ordinance.

Shoot at the Darn Speeder thingy that give the +2cover save, since the thing only has a 5+ cover, and the rest of them becomes more squishy, also to benefit from this cover save, they need to be thightly packed, wich is nice.

Each of my models have nearly as much attacks that ravenwings units as models, with FC its a piece of cake.

Hounds from a Gorepack is like a real thorne in their side, to many wounds, for their firepower too high WS.

They stomp necrons hard. We have access to 3 ignore cover options, one of which is single use.

zerosignal wrote:
They stomp necrons hard. We have access to 3 ignore cover options, one of which is single use.

Why are you acting as if the Assault Phase doesn't exist? Necrons have one of the best assault units in the game - Wraiths. Use them.

Again, and I said this before, most people in this thread are trying to beat Ravenwing at their own game. They have crazy good Jink saves. You could either pay out the nose for Ignores Cover, or you could just charge them and maul them in assault.

I find a 5-man squad or two of LOTD with plasma cannon, meltagun and plasma pistol can knock decent holes in Ravenwing units. AP2 and ignores cover, along with decent resistance to return plasma fire.

If you have to list tailor that doesn't really prove anything. I do encourage my opponents to do so just for the challenge though.

 Necroagogo wrote:
I find a 5-man squad or two of LOTD with plasma cannon, meltagun and plasma pistol can knock decent holes in Ravenwing units. AP2 and ignores cover, along with decent resistance to return plasma fire.

Shouldn't you use a Plasma Gun instead of a Meltagun for this purpose though?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Why are you acting as if the Assault Phase doesn't exist? Necrons have one of the best assault units in the game - Wraiths. Use them.

Again, and I said this before, most people in this thread are trying to beat Ravenwing at their own game. They have crazy good Jink saves. You could either pay out the nose for Ignores Cover, or you could just charge them and maul them in assault.

Everyone has convinced themselves the assault phase no longer exists despite some of the most powerful units in a large number of Codex's being either pure melee or primary melee units

GAdvance wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Why are you acting as if the Assault Phase doesn't exist? Necrons have one of the best assault units in the game - Wraiths. Use them.

Again, and I said this before, most people in this thread are trying to beat Ravenwing at their own game. They have crazy good Jink saves. You could either pay out the nose for Ignores Cover, or you could just charge them and maul them in assault.

Everyone has convinced themselves the assault phase no longer exists despite some of the most powerful units in a large number of Codex's being either pure melee or primary melee units

Because many of said units die like slime in the shooting phase. There are a few that don't, and they get spammed to death. 7th ed has tried very hard to take assault out of the game, that's for sure.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

zerosignal wrote:
They stomp necrons hard. We have access to 3 ignore cover options, one of which is single use.

Why are you acting as if the Assault Phase doesn't exist? Necrons have one of the best assault units in the game - Wraiths. Use them.

Again, and I said this before, most people in this thread are trying to beat Ravenwing at their own game. They have crazy good Jink saves. You could either pay out the nose for Ignores Cover, or you could just charge them and maul them in assault.

Oh, I did, but they died in a hail of twin-linked plasma, typhoon missiles and multi-melta shots; by the time they made combat, Black Knights and Sammael made short work of the remainder.

Black Knights with Librarian and Sammael support are strong in assault.

Also, charging that unit means taking a bunch of missiles and melta shots in overwatch at BS2 (some kind of support formation rule).

 Necroagogo wrote:
I find a 5-man squad or two of LOTD with plasma cannon, meltagun and plasma pistol can knock decent holes in Ravenwing units. AP2 and ignores cover, along with decent resistance to return plasma fire.

Why wouldn't you use a combi grav and plasma gun with that?

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Necroagogo wrote:
I find a 5-man squad or two of LOTD with plasma cannon, meltagun and plasma pistol can knock decent holes in Ravenwing units. AP2 and ignores cover, along with decent resistance to return plasma fire.

Why wouldn't you use a combi grav and plasma gun with that?

I go with the meltagun for help with cracking armour, if needed. Plasma pistol on the sarge over combi-grav as I hope he'll be around long enough to get more than one turn of shooting off.

Has anyone used triple-vindicators (vanilla marines) against Ravenwing? I'd imagine a S10 AP2 Ignores Cover 7" pie plate would put a pretty serious hurting on them.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Has anyone used triple-vindicators (vanilla marines) against Ravenwing? I'd imagine a S10 AP2 Ignores Cover 7" pie plate would put a pretty serious hurting on them.

The thing about that is, you're dedicating 360 points to kill one unit, once you kill the first Vindicator that's 240 points wasted. Better Heavy Supports would be Siciaran Battle Tank or Whirlwind Scorpius w/ Battle of Keylek

 Runic wrote:

It is exactly that, a list he always runs, it isn't tailor made, and instead of proving nothing it proves quite a bit, actually. Especially that you can beat other armies with CSM, a claim so many say is untrue. ( This will ofcourse be followed by comments such as "well ofcourse if you take those units" - what did you expect, Mutilators? )

Yeah it proves that you can beat other armies with CSM when you spam Heldrakes and spam sicaran tanks from IA13. Of course this doesn't prove that you can actually beat other armies with the CSM codex itself, which is pretty tough in higher powered metas. Personally I prefer to call my codex useful if I can rely on more than a single unit from it AND not need to pull in a supplemental list from Forge World to be solid. Don't get me wrong, I love my IA13 units, but it is irritating that they are kind of necessary to succeed with CSMs in anything but a low powered meta.

 Skriker wrote:

 Runic wrote:

It is exactly that, a list he always runs, it isn't tailor made, and instead of proving nothing it proves quite a bit, actually. Especially that you can beat other armies with CSM, a claim so many say is untrue. ( This will ofcourse be followed by comments such as "well ofcourse if you take those units" - what did you expect, Mutilators? )

Yeah it proves that you can beat other armies with CSM when you spam Heldrakes and spam sicaran tanks from IA13. Of course this doesn't prove that you can actually beat other armies with the CSM codex itself, which is pretty tough in higher powered metas. Personally I prefer to call my codex useful if I can rely on more than a single unit from it AND not need to pull in a supplemental list from Forge World to be solid. Don't get me wrong, I love my IA13 units, but it is irritating that they are kind of necessary to succeed with CSMs in anything but a low powered meta.

Runic casts "Divination".
It's super-effective!

 Psienesis wrote:

 Skriker wrote:

 Runic wrote:

It is exactly that, a list he always runs, it isn't tailor made, and instead of proving nothing it proves quite a bit, actually. Especially that you can beat other armies with CSM, a claim so many say is untrue. ( This will ofcourse be followed by comments such as "well ofcourse if you take those units" - what did you expect, Mutilators? )

Yeah it proves that you can beat other armies with CSM when you spam Heldrakes and spam sicaran tanks from IA13. Of course this doesn't prove that you can actually beat other armies with the CSM codex itself, which is pretty tough in higher powered metas. Personally I prefer to call my codex useful if I can rely on more than a single unit from it AND not need to pull in a supplemental list from Forge World to be solid. Don't get me wrong, I love my IA13 units, but it is irritating that they are kind of necessary to succeed with CSMs in anything but a low powered meta.

Runic casts "Divination".
It's super-effective!

He divined that someone would shoot holes in his series of nonsensical posts? What a wizard!

When you post about spamming two units that are known to be lethal against jinking bikes and insinuate that proves Ravenwing can be easily beaten, and you claim this list proves CSM are competitive when one of your two spammed units isn't even in CSM, you can expect a heaping dose of criticism. The smartest thing you can do at that point is predict someone will shoot you down.

The Heldrake is a Codex: CSM unit. Allies and Add-ons (sounds like it's own RPG... ) is how the game is intended to be played these days, is why GW keeps pumping out all these "optional" books and dataslates and what-not.

So what we have here is a CSM list making use of resources available to CSM units, both in fact and in fluff. No one bitches when IG uses IA resources, or Codex: Tau use FSE, or CWE use Harlies.

Why the butthurtedness when someone builds something out of C:CSM and its available side-products that seems to work?

Oh, I'm not butthurt at all. Just pointing out how uninformative* the comment was and how utterly predictable (and correct) the immediate rebuttal was.

*Uninformative because a spam list that may as well be tailored to beat Ravenwing tells us nothing about whether it is easy or common for other TAC lists to beat Ravenwing, AND uninformative because a spam list whose cornerstone is a powerful Forgeworld unit in triplicate doesn't tell us a whole lot about whether CSM is a competitive codex. I will at least grant that it's better than running AdMech with Flesh Tearers drop pod taxi service and claiming BA is a competitive dex based on the experience, and it's nice that someone out there is enjoying using CSM, but come on. You can't spam the hell out of a few units, lean heavily on Forgeworld, come up with a mid-tier list, and then smugly poo-poo the general consensus that the codex is crap tier without someone rightly calling you out.

I recommend 6 Helturkeys and nothing else. Enjoy the backlash of hate you will get.

Martel732 wrote:

GAdvance wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Why are you acting as if the Assault Phase doesn't exist? Necrons have one of the best assault units in the game - Wraiths. Use them.

Again, and I said this before, most people in this thread are trying to beat Ravenwing at their own game. They have crazy good Jink saves. You could either pay out the nose for Ignores Cover, or you could just charge them and maul them in assault.

Everyone has convinced themselves the assault phase no longer exists despite some of the most powerful units in a large number of Codex's being either pure melee or primary melee units

Because many of said units die like slime in the shooting phase. There are a few that don't, and they get spammed to death. 7th ed has tried very hard to take assault out of the game, that's for sure.

Assault is way more likely in 7th than in 6th, maelstrom objectives push units out into positions that are closer to the centre of the board

I'll start by saying that I'm still fairly new to the game so please forgive if my statements prove to be horribly incorrect...

I play both Grey Knights and Dark Angels but I have yet to pit them against one another (based on this thread, I will likely grab a friend and do this now). From my experience, Black Knights have great survivability (obviously) and are great in close combat. However, in CC they cannot jink. And Grey Knights, unless all equipped with force staves for some reason, will always have AP3 so they'll ignore their armour saves. Now of course with Black Knights having toughness 5 and GK termies and such having strength 4 it's a bit more difficult to wound. However, when it does wound it's an instant death (assuming there are no apothecaries in the unit).

Is the issue getting into close combat? Because from my experience, Black Knights want to be in close combat. Otherwise, assuming they jink all the time (which they likely are) they're shooting very poorly. Even with twin linked plasma. So from what I see, you either get them in CC and have a decent fight, or make them avoid CC and having them shoot BS1 plasma talons over and over.

On a final note, if you DS GK in shouldn't it fairly easy to get into CC? Even if the squad isn't wiped out, surely enough Black Knights will die to help lighten the load.

Black Knights are great in CC - but you almost never want to get into CC with GK unless you've got AP2 at a higher initiative/hidden in unit, can tarpit, or have enough bodies to get wounds through.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Black Knights are great in CC - but you almost never want to get into CC with GK unless you've got AP2 at a higher initiative/hidden in unit, can tarpit, or have enough bodies to get wounds through.

Fair enough. But with the same initiative and AP3 most of the time, wouldn't it be worth getting in there to see what damage can be done? With the exception of the huntermaster who might have an AP2 power axe, surely the GK can do some damage while maintaining their numbers. This is of course assuming it's Terminators in close combat.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
My KDK like to munch on Ravenwing, their tasty.

Khorne's Skull cannon, while its true the Ap is laughable( they could at least gave it AP4), its still a STR 8 Ignore cover ordinance.

Shoot at the Darn Speeder thingy that give the +2cover save, since the thing only has a 5+ cover, and the rest of them becomes more squishy, also to benefit from this cover save, they need to be thightly packed, wich is nice.

Each of my models have nearly as much attacks that ravenwings units as models, with FC its a piece of cake.

Hounds from a Gorepack is like a real thorne in their side, to many wounds, for their firepower too high WS.

Dark shroud also has a 2+ cover save re-roll


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote:
I'll start by saying that I'm still fairly new to the game so please forgive if my statements prove to be horribly incorrect...

I play both Grey Knights and Dark Angels but I have yet to pit them against one another (based on this thread, I will likely grab a friend and do this now). From my experience, Black Knights have great survivability (obviously) and are great in close combat. However, in CC they cannot jink. And Grey Knights, unless all equipped with force staves for some reason, will always have AP3 so they'll ignore their armour saves. Now of course with Black Knights having toughness 5 and GK termies and such having strength 4 it's a bit more difficult to wound. However, when it does wound it's an instant death (assuming there are no apothecaries in the unit).

Is the issue getting into close combat? Because from my experience, Black Knights want to be in close combat. Otherwise, assuming they jink all the time (which they likely are) they're shooting very poorly. Even with twin linked plasma. So from what I see, you either get them in CC and have a decent fight, or make them avoid CC and having them shoot BS1 plasma talons over and over.

On a final note, if you DS GK in shouldn't it fairly easy to get into CC? Even if the squad isn't wiped out, surely enough Black Knights will die to help lighten the load.

you got a point, GK are great in CC but the mobility of bikers allows you to dodge every single fights and choose you own battle. Being lock 1 turn means you can hit and roll and start shooting at full WS. Mobility is killing GK because their shooting is simply bad... Ravenwing does very good vs 90% of the game. Jink anything, choose your charges, unlock yourself, shoot again, hammer of wrath..... The only way i did win vs Ravenwing is by playing a Thunderwolf army, which was so easy haha But melee oriented armies are very rare !

 GoliothOnline wrote:
I recommend 6 Helturkeys and nothing else. Enjoy the backlash of hate you will get.

I would play against that list all day long, it would be an 8 hour day of 480 1-minute long games ending with having win-loss ratio of 480-0.

6 flyers and nothing else auto-loses at the end of turn 1; just like any army where you reserve everything and have no way to come out of reserves first turn.

 PaulTheFirewoodSalesman wrote:
I'll start by saying that I'm still fairly new to the game so please forgive if my statements prove to be horribly incorrect...

I play both Grey Knights and Dark Angels but I have yet to pit them against one another (based on this thread, I will likely grab a friend and do this now). From my experience, Black Knights have great survivability (obviously) and are great in close combat. However, in CC they cannot jink. And Grey Knights, unless all equipped with force staves for some reason, will always have AP3 so they'll ignore their armour saves. Now of course with Black Knights having toughness 5 and GK termies and such having strength 4 it's a bit more difficult to wound. However, when it does wound it's an instant death (assuming there are no apothecaries in the unit).

Is the issue getting into close combat? Because from my experience, Black Knights want to be in close combat. Otherwise, assuming they jink all the time (which they likely are) they're shooting very poorly. Even with twin linked plasma. So from what I see, you either get them in CC and have a decent fight, or make them avoid CC and having them shoot BS1 plasma talons over and over.

On a final note, if you DS GK in shouldn't it fairly easy to get into CC? Even if the squad isn't wiped out, surely enough Black Knights will die to help lighten the load.

Black Knights don't want to be in CC with terminators your right on that one, however for cost they'll utterly maul the terminators by just driving away and shooting the, and unless the terminators have ap3 they probably wont even need to jink

Getting into combat is the real problem, you need a Landraider or similar to do so and then your investing 400 points into killing one maybe two units of MSU black Knights, it's very difficult, a nemesis dreadknight withthe shunt is probably the best GK unit for dealing with BK

Well, if you stuff them into the Redeemer, that could melt at least two squads of BKs or other Bikers (POTMS + 2 Flamestorm Cannons = ), though it would definitely be expensive.

Big thing is, it would be immune to all the Plasma stuff but the Grav would do nasty things to it quite quickly.