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@OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
Now, I will say that is broken, it should realistically be about 10points more per model. but again its not more efficient then Scatbikes because you can't spam them. 1 unit of those is great but I can focus fire it or do something to make it less scary, but 5 units of scat bikes killing my Green tide by turn 2.....
1. They can be spammed if a Necron player wanted them to be.
2. How are 5 units of scatter laser bikes destroying 12 void shields in 2 turns, and 100 wounds of Orks as well?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/17 20:37:21
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Now, I will say that is broken, it should realistically be about 10points more per model. but again its not more efficient then Scatbikes because you can't spam them. 1 unit of those is great but I can focus fire it or do something to make it less scary, but 5 units of scat bikes killing my Green tide by turn 2.....
1. They can be spammed if a Necron player wanted them to be.
2. How are 5 units of scatter laser bikes destroying 12 void shields in 2 turns, and 100 wounds of Orks as well?
hold on while I go check my codex....yep no, Green tide does not include a Void shield.
Im sure some insane tourny list includes one for purposes of abusing the rules but thats not how I play.
and yeah anything can be spammed. And I can say I want to take 1000 orks boyz free because reasons/house rules.
If you want to play semantics please don't use me as your opponent because I don't care to fence with words when my intent was perfectly clear.
I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all
Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: @OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I hate Space Marines with a bloody massive passion and I still believe that Eldar are so damn overpowered that they make other armies a mere joke in the wind.
Tell me, if you are such an expert, just how the hell a 12" ignores terrain move + boost + 12" special snowflake move 3+ armour save 2+ jink save S6 AP5 4 shot BS4 T4 unit costing a mere 27 points, available in 10 snowflake blobs and classed as a troops choice is fair?
Or how about a GMC which can go toe to toe with two Imperial Knights and win and will rape (sorry mod) ANY damn unit that gets within its LOS and who's only real weakness is Grav, a type of weapon available to only one army in the entire game, can cost less than an Imperial Knight?
Or how Wraithbrigade lists can essentially make a mockery of everything by paying a whopping 10 points to allow them to be bringing D flamers which invalidate just about everything else on the table?
Oh and BTW I play IG, not Marines or any derivative so that ammunition is usless.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
Does Nova ever publish all the lists, or at least the top X lists, on their site? I feel like that's something more tournaments should do, is publish lists so others can do some analysis.
I'd rather play against any eldar list under ITC rules than ever play against a deathstar like this that literally can't be wounded under NOVA rules because they ruled out anything that can hurt it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/17 21:08:53
Tinkrr wrote:Does Nova ever publish all the lists, or at least the top X lists, on their site? I feel like that's something more tournaments should do, is publish lists so others can do some analysis.
Now, I will say that is broken, it should realistically be about 10points more per model. but again its not more efficient then Scatbikes because you can't spam them. 1 unit of those is great but I can focus fire it or do something to make it less scary, but 5 units of scat bikes killing my Green tide by turn 2.....
1. They can be spammed if a Necron player wanted them to be.
2. How are 5 units of scatter laser bikes destroying 12 void shields in 2 turns, and 100 wounds of Orks as well?
hold on while I go check my codex....yep no, Green tide does not include a Void shield.
Im sure some insane tourny list includes one for purposes of abusing the rules but thats not how I play.
and yeah anything can be spammed. And I can say I want to take 1000 orks boyz free because reasons/house rules.
If you want to play semantics please don't use me as your opponent because I don't care to fence with words when my intent was perfectly clear.
Alright, you can go on ignore then. You make a statement that something more optimal beats your unoptimal thing, but refuse to listen to why your unoptimal thing is bad when the options to optimize it exist. You deserve what you get.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote:@OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
Nailed it here. People who play Codex: Scatbikers and D-weapons have the choice of winning disgracefully or being mocked for losing with a list that truly can "Take All Comers". Fortunately, not everyone plays Eldar in that fashion. The competitive scene just happens to be full of them because they're the easiest road to winning.
Sheit27 wrote:I'd rather play against any eldar list under ITC rules than ever play against a deathstar like this that literally can't be wounded under NOVA rules because they ruled out anything that can hurt it.
The genius of that list is twofold:
1. It spends plenty on non-deathstar units to score objectives well.
2. The deathstar itself is mobile enough and has enough bodies to pull of a gigantic multi-assault on the opponent (which is what ended up happening at the top table).
It also doesn't hurt that you can hit it and can't hurt it effectively with any weapon in the game. I agree with you in that I still wouldn't play it, even under ITC rules. I'd rather face a War Convocation with Blood Angels taxi service, and that says a lot.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote:@OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
Nailed it here. People who play Codex: Scatbikers and D-weapons have the choice of winning disgracefully or being mocked for losing with a list that truly can "Take All Comers". Fortunately, not everyone plays Eldar in that fashion. The competitive scene just happens to be full of them because they're the easiest road to winning.
Yeah, the #2, 3 and 6 placing lists at the NOVA Open were Eldar jetbike spam armies of various sorts. Warlock Conclaves and min sized triple scatterlaser Windriders galore.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: @OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I hate Space Marines with a bloody massive passion and I still believe that Eldar are so damn overpowered that they make other armies a mere joke in the wind.
Tell me, if you are such an expert, just how the hell a 12" ignores terrain move + boost + 12" special snowflake move 3+ armour save 2+ jink save S6 AP5 4 shot BS4 T4 unit costing a mere 27 points, available in 10 snowflake blobs and classed as a troops choice is fair?
Or how about a GMC which can go toe to toe with two Imperial Knights and win and will rape (sorry mod) ANY damn unit that gets within its LOS and who's only real weakness is Grav, a type of weapon available to only one army in the entire game, can cost less than an Imperial Knight?
Or how Wraithbrigade lists can essentially make a mockery of everything by paying a whopping 10 points to allow them to be bringing D flamers which invalidate just about everything else on the table?
Oh and BTW I play IG, not Marines or any derivative so that ammunition is usless.
The is a whole range of Eldar hate involves everything from reasonable concerns to ridiculous ones. I haven't suggested some things aren't OP. My default, when I played regularly, was to avoid spamming stuff that was widely complained about, but I would still have to listen to stupid complaints about the little I brought. Heaven forbid you take one starcannon back in third. Because spamming was OP you couldn't take them at all without the whine fest exploding into a cacophony. I cite back to an older edition because that was when I was active but the same thing happens now. One single Wave Serpent in 6th and OMG you cheesy TGG WAAC eldar player. A single squad of scat bikes now same thing. Basically Eldar players are asked to not even dabble a tiny bit into their cool shinies. So while there are reasonable complaints to be made, some take those complaints to absurd degrees.
Then those biases can persist for multiple codexes after nerfs have been implemented. Wraithlords were nerfed in fourth but take one in fourth and hear complaints about what happened in third. Play a list that never wins because it has a critical flaw despite some powerful models and hear complaints the whole game by an opponent who is winning easily.
I see posts in this thread and others that basically say all Eldar players are stupid because they can't win if the codex is nerfed and only win without nerds due to being OP. It is basically suggested that merely by playing Eldar you must be a cackling fool.
The ire goes far beyond the rational into the realm of histerical witch hunting. Meanwhile somehow some people manage to achieve success against Eldar and have the mindset of "whatever I can beat them", then low and behold they do. Of course that can only be because that particular Eldar player was no good. Every data point suggesting that critiques may be slightly overblown is ignored and dismissed.
With all of that said, I'm not happy with the current dex. I'd love to field a foot wraith army but hate the Wraithknight so the formation is out. The current dex doesn't offer a satisfactory way to do this. Spamming scatbikes? No thanks, not my thing. Pathfinders won't synergize well and I don't want as many guardians as guard. There is no option for guard as your troops without the damned Wraithknight. I get scytheguard guard are really nasty, but wouldn't be dark eldar in them in (despite being a past dark eldar player in 4th/5th so if I went that route it isn't like I would be just collecting to abuse without history there). Anyway the dex is problematic for people who like the army cause they think it's cool because they have to out up with a lot of crap and try to contort their army to not piss people off and even then you may still have to put up with abuse.
And while we are contextualizing our collections, I currently have more Orks, Nids (no flyrants) and Marines than Eldar.
Many of the best players I know are Eldar players. The codex just makes them neigh unbeatable. The power units aren't crutches for them; they are scalpels.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: @OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I hate Space Marines with a bloody massive passion and I still believe that Eldar are so damn overpowered that they make other armies a mere joke in the wind.
Tell me, if you are such an expert, just how the hell a 12" ignores terrain move + boost + 12" special snowflake move 3+ armour save 2+ jink save S6 AP5 4 shot BS4 T4 unit costing a mere 27 points, available in 10 snowflake blobs and classed as a troops choice is fair?
Or how about a GMC which can go toe to toe with two Imperial Knights and win and will rape (sorry mod) ANY damn unit that gets within its LOS and who's only real weakness is Grav, a type of weapon available to only one army in the entire game, can cost less than an Imperial Knight?
Or how Wraithbrigade lists can essentially make a mockery of everything by paying a whopping 10 points to allow them to be bringing D flamers which invalidate just about everything else on the table?
Oh and BTW I play IG, not Marines or any derivative so that ammunition is usless.
The is a whole range of Eldar hate involves everything from reasonable concerns to ridiculous ones. I haven't suggested some things aren't OP. My default, when I played regularly, was to avoid spamming stuff that was widely complained about, but I would still have to listen to stupid complaints about the little I brought. Heaven forbid you take one starcannon back in third. Because spamming was OP you couldn't take them at all without the whine fest exploding into a cacophony. I cite back to an older edition because that was when I was active but the same thing happens now. One single Wave Serpent in 6th and OMG you cheesy TGG WAAC eldar player. A single squad of scat bikes now same thing. Basically Eldar players are asked to not even dabble a tiny bit into their cool shinies. So while there are reasonable complaints to be made, some take those complaints to absurd degrees.
Then those biases can persist for multiple codexes after nerfs have been implemented. Wraithlords were nerfed in fourth but take one in fourth and hear complaints about what happened in third. Play a list that never wins because it has a critical flaw despite some powerful models and hear complaints the whole game by an opponent who is winning easily.
I see posts in this thread and others that basically say all Eldar players are stupid because they can't win if the codex is nerfed and only win without nerds due to being OP. It is basically suggested that merely by playing Eldar you must be a cackling fool.
The ire goes far beyond the rational into the realm of histerical witch hunting. Meanwhile somehow some people manage to achieve success against Eldar and have the mindset of "whatever I can beat them", then low and behold they do. Of course that can only be because that particular Eldar player was no good. Every data point suggesting that critiques may be slightly overblown is ignored and dismissed.
With all of that said, I'm not happy with the current dex. I'd love to field a foot wraith army but hate the Wraithknight so the formation is out. The current dex doesn't offer a satisfactory way to do this. Spamming scatbikes? No thanks, not my thing. Pathfinders won't synergize well and I don't want as many guardians as guard. There is no option for guard as your troops without the damned Wraithknight. I get scytheguard guard are really nasty, but wouldn't be dark eldar in them in (despite being a past dark eldar player in 4th/5th so if I went that route it isn't like I would be just collecting to abuse without history there). Anyway the dex is problematic for people who like the army cause they think it's cool because they have to out up with a lot of crap and try to contort their army to not piss people off and even then you may still have to put up with abuse.
And while we are contextualizing our collections, I currently have more Orks, Nids (no flyrants) and Marines than Eldar.
The problem isn't that you take 1 unit that is considered OP as hell, its that the entire Codex is head and shoulders above everyone else so you don't ever need to take those units to play a friendly game. Sure if you go to a tourny then go balls to the wall. Can you name me one codex (besides necrons possibly) that has almost ZERO bad units in it?
Ork codex has trash littering it all over, Codex IG has all sorts of garbage (Its IG not fething AM). But Eldar? realistically maybe howling banshees, but even they are ok compared to other units.
I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all
Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders
Its ironic that we are sitting here, discussing how a list can win tournaments. So much for L2P. The sooner we accept 40k is a noskill armylist building "game", the sooner we can move on to a game which requires actual skill, like warmahordes and infinity
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I wish eldar players would stop with the space marine strawman. You currently are far more hated than them, not because of any spez muhrenz, but because for 7 editions, 25 years in a row, you've been the #1 most overpowered codex, gathering the cheesiest, most WAAC players, making up a playerbase of the most obnoxious TFGs.
With the current codex, I think everyone would agree that any eldar player that can lose with it is plain dumb. There is no excuse you can come out with, to lose playing with eldar.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/18 01:18:36
Martel732 wrote: Many of the best players I know are Eldar players. The codex just makes them neigh unbeatable. The power units aren't crutches for them; they are scalpels.
^This. Just because someone plays a certain army doesn't mean anything about them and their skill level.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
Ghazkuul wrote: Because they told him he wasn't allowed to bring 3 wraithknights and 30-40 Scat bikes.
That's basically what is happening. Unfortunately casual players aren't so lucky...they have to be their own "bad cop" to keep out OP armies.
The absolute best Player as far as sportsmanship and humor/fun in my area is an Eldar Player and he is without a doubt the BEST player to play against. He will specifically tailor his list to fight you, and by that I mean he won't bring Cheese ever and will play some of hte worst units in the codex to make it a fun game. If you bring some major cheese he might pull out some Scat bikes, but otherwise they are 1/3 Heavy weapon bikers.
That's the kind of tabletop gamer I want to be. Pleasant attitude, plays games like the objective is for both sides to have fun.
Sadly, I still have significant traces of power gamer in me that look at things like the 2011 "Uriah-bomb" and giggle with glee.
Martel732 wrote: Many of the best players I know are Eldar players. The codex just makes them neigh unbeatable. The power units aren't crutches for them; they are scalpels.
^This. Just because someone plays a certain army doesn't mean anything about them and their skill level.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hes trying to argue its just as broken as Eldar, if not moreso, therefore people should stop complaining about Eldar.
Also because its an Imperial army and frankly from my experience on here and stores around the US if its an Imperial army then it "cant be" overpowered.
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
Martel732 wrote: Many of the best players I know are Eldar players. The codex just makes them neigh unbeatable. The power units aren't crutches for them; they are scalpels.
^This. Just because someone plays a certain army doesn't mean anything about them and their skill level.
40k has skill?
*Yawn*
Go back to the warmahordes section, hope it's not too hard to find, it is tiny after all.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: @OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I hate Space Marines with a bloody massive passion and I still believe that Eldar are so damn overpowered that they make other armies a mere joke in the wind.
Tell me, if you are such an expert, just how the hell a 12" ignores terrain move + boost + 12" special snowflake move 3+ armour save 2+ jink save S6 AP5 4 shot BS4 T4 unit costing a mere 27 points, available in 10 snowflake blobs and classed as a troops choice is fair?
Or how about a GMC which can go toe to toe with two Imperial Knights and win and will rape (sorry mod) ANY damn unit that gets within its LOS and who's only real weakness is Grav, a type of weapon available to only one army in the entire game, can cost less than an Imperial Knight?
Or how Wraithbrigade lists can essentially make a mockery of everything by paying a whopping 10 points to allow them to be bringing D flamers which invalidate just about everything else on the table?
Oh and BTW I play IG, not Marines or any derivative so that ammunition is usless.
The is a whole range of Eldar hate involves everything from reasonable concerns to ridiculous ones. I haven't suggested some things aren't OP. My default, when I played regularly, was to avoid spamming stuff that was widely complained about, but I would still have to listen to stupid complaints about the little I brought. Heaven forbid you take one starcannon back in third. Because spamming was OP you couldn't take them at all without the whine fest exploding into a cacophony. I cite back to an older edition because that was when I was active but the same thing happens now. One single Wave Serpent in 6th and OMG you cheesy TGG WAAC eldar player. A single squad of scat bikes now same thing. Basically Eldar players are asked to not even dabble a tiny bit into their cool shinies. So while there are reasonable complaints to be made, some take those complaints to absurd degrees.
Then those biases can persist for multiple codexes after nerfs have been implemented. Wraithlords were nerfed in fourth but take one in fourth and hear complaints about what happened in third. Play a list that never wins because it has a critical flaw despite some powerful models and hear complaints the whole game by an opponent who is winning easily.
I see posts in this thread and others that basically say all Eldar players are stupid because they can't win if the codex is nerfed and only win without nerds due to being OP. It is basically suggested that merely by playing Eldar you must be a cackling fool.
The ire goes far beyond the rational into the realm of histerical witch hunting. Meanwhile somehow some people manage to achieve success against Eldar and have the mindset of "whatever I can beat them", then low and behold they do. Of course that can only be because that particular Eldar player was no good. Every data point suggesting that critiques may be slightly overblown is ignored and dismissed.
With all of that said, I'm not happy with the current dex. I'd love to field a foot wraith army but hate the Wraithknight so the formation is out. The current dex doesn't offer a satisfactory way to do this. Spamming scatbikes? No thanks, not my thing. Pathfinders won't synergize well and I don't want as many guardians as guard. There is no option for guard as your troops without the damned Wraithknight. I get scytheguard guard are really nasty, but wouldn't be dark eldar in them in (despite being a past dark eldar player in 4th/5th so if I went that route it isn't like I would be just collecting to abuse without history there). Anyway the dex is problematic for people who like the army cause they think it's cool because they have to out up with a lot of crap and try to contort their army to not piss people off and even then you may still have to put up with abuse.
And while we are contextualizing our collections, I currently have more Orks, Nids (no flyrants) and Marines than Eldar.
The problem isn't that you take 1 unit that is considered OP as hell, its that the entire Codex is head and shoulders above everyone else so you don't ever need to take those units to play a friendly game. Sure if you go to a tourny then go balls to the wall. Can you name me one codex (besides necrons possibly) that has almost ZERO bad units in it?
Ork codex has trash littering it all over, Codex IG has all sorts of garbage (Its IG not fething AM). But Eldar? realistically maybe howling banshees, but even they are ok compared to other units.
This is one of those complaints about the Eldar codex that makes absolutely no sense to me. Every codex should have every unit as a viable option. That the Eldar codex is close to this is not a bad thing in any way. To complain about that is to succumb to irrational envy. The problem is that other codexes lack internal balance. If the Eldar codex had a bunch of crap units that wouldn't fix the other units in the other codexes. Complaints about stuff being OP I get and calls for them to be brought back in line make total sense. They have too many fieldable (not OP, just fieldable) units as a complaint though.
Martel732 wrote: Many of the best players I know are Eldar players. The codex just makes them neigh unbeatable. The power units aren't crutches for them; they are scalpels.
^This. Just because someone plays a certain army doesn't mean anything about them and their skill level.
40k has skill?
Yep it sure does!
Not that Id expect you to know though, its a common misconception that even many veteran players of the game seem to ignore sometimes.
Plus you seem to be new around here, so I am assuming your new to the hobby as well too so I understand the confusion.
Of course Id be an idiot if I just told you L2P ,and forget about it. You have to design your strategy at the list building stage and then practice with it...alot.
Also learning your armies rules by memory, and basics like terrain, tank shocking, multi-charging etc can give you more time to think of tactics mid-game instead of making sure that your following the rules correctly and constantly referencing the rulebook.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/18 01:59:13
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
kburn wrote: Its ironic that we are sitting here, discussing how a list can win tournaments. So much for L2P. The sooner we accept 40k is a noskill armylist building "game", the sooner we can move on to a game which requires actual skill, like warmahordes and infinity
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I wish eldar players would stop with the space marine strawman. You currently are far more hated than them, not because of any spez muhrenz, but because for 7 editions, 25 years in a row, you've been the #1 most overpowered codex, gathering the cheesiest, most WAAC players, making up a playerbase of the most obnoxious TFGs.
With the current codex, I think everyone would agree that any eldar player that can lose with it is plain dumb. There is no excuse you can come out with, to lose playing with eldar.
Or the Eldar player is a decent guy who deliberately doesn't use the best available stuff to be sporting. Are you saying that it is stupid to be sporting or that every single thing in the Eldar codex is so powerful that is impossible to make a list bad enough to lose unless you are stupid.
Some do dislike Eldar for their fluff/appearance/etc. Just because some are that way doesn't mean all are and conversely just because some aren't doesn't mean all aren't. There is something about Eldar beyond the quality of codexes makes some players lose any sense of reasonableness in their dislike and it was there long before 25 years of supposed brokenness. (The 25 years thing is a bit of hyperbole I think).
I wonder if Warmachine forums have characters there too, who are like: "Warmachine has no skill! Play chess!"
The draw of 40k is aesthetics and goofy emergent storytelling, not high-level tournament play. 40k has Fish of Fury and Leafblowers and rerollable 2+ hijinks, not Grandmasters.
The competitive history of this game is essentially one massive red flag telling you not to take it too seriously.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: @OP. Near as I can figure. If Eldar win, they are OP. If they lose its because the Eldar player is stupid. If they are nerfed and can't win, again the Eldar player is stupid. So as an Eldar player you have two choices, win because of your OP codex, (it can't possibly be because you are good as Eldar players aren't) or lose because you are a stupid player who needs an unfair crutch to win.
With all that, Eldar players have from time to time fanned the flames of Eldar distaste, and less in your face I'm awesome you suck sort of grandstanding might quell the rage a bit.
It'll likely always be there though because some people dislike Eldar for reasons that go beyond gameplay. Even if they were bottom tier for years there would I think remain people who dislike them because of their fluff nature and because Spehz Muhreens.
I hate Space Marines with a bloody massive passion and I still believe that Eldar are so damn overpowered that they make other armies a mere joke in the wind.
Tell me, if you are such an expert, just how the hell a 12" ignores terrain move + boost + 12" special snowflake move 3+ armour save 2+ jink save S6 AP5 4 shot BS4 T4 unit costing a mere 27 points, available in 10 snowflake blobs and classed as a troops choice is fair?
Or how about a GMC which can go toe to toe with two Imperial Knights and win and will rape (sorry mod) ANY damn unit that gets within its LOS and who's only real weakness is Grav, a type of weapon available to only one army in the entire game, can cost less than an Imperial Knight?
Or how Wraithbrigade lists can essentially make a mockery of everything by paying a whopping 10 points to allow them to be bringing D flamers which invalidate just about everything else on the table?
Oh and BTW I play IG, not Marines or any derivative so that ammunition is usless.
The is a whole range of Eldar hate involves everything from reasonable concerns to ridiculous ones. I haven't suggested some things aren't OP. My default, when I played regularly, was to avoid spamming stuff that was widely complained about, but I would still have to listen to stupid complaints about the little I brought. Heaven forbid you take one starcannon back in third. Because spamming was OP you couldn't take them at all without the whine fest exploding into a cacophony. I cite back to an older edition because that was when I was active but the same thing happens now. One single Wave Serpent in 6th and OMG you cheesy TGG WAAC eldar player. A single squad of scat bikes now same thing. Basically Eldar players are asked to not even dabble a tiny bit into their cool shinies. So while there are reasonable complaints to be made, some take those complaints to absurd degrees.
Then those biases can persist for multiple codexes after nerfs have been implemented. Wraithlords were nerfed in fourth but take one in fourth and hear complaints about what happened in third. Play a list that never wins because it has a critical flaw despite some powerful models and hear complaints the whole game by an opponent who is winning easily.
I see posts in this thread and others that basically say all Eldar players are stupid because they can't win if the codex is nerfed and only win without nerds due to being OP. It is basically suggested that merely by playing Eldar you must be a cackling fool.
The ire goes far beyond the rational into the realm of histerical witch hunting. Meanwhile somehow some people manage to achieve success against Eldar and have the mindset of "whatever I can beat them", then low and behold they do. Of course that can only be because that particular Eldar player was no good. Every data point suggesting that critiques may be slightly overblown is ignored and dismissed.
With all of that said, I'm not happy with the current dex. I'd love to field a foot wraith army but hate the Wraithknight so the formation is out. The current dex doesn't offer a satisfactory way to do this. Spamming scatbikes? No thanks, not my thing. Pathfinders won't synergize well and I don't want as many guardians as guard. There is no option for guard as your troops without the damned Wraithknight. I get scytheguard guard are really nasty, but wouldn't be dark eldar in them in (despite being a past dark eldar player in 4th/5th so if I went that route it isn't like I would be just collecting to abuse without history there). Anyway the dex is problematic for people who like the army cause they think it's cool because they have to out up with a lot of crap and try to contort their army to not piss people off and even then you may still have to put up with abuse.
And while we are contextualizing our collections, I currently have more Orks, Nids (no flyrants) and Marines than Eldar.
The problem isn't that you take 1 unit that is considered OP as hell, its that the entire Codex is head and shoulders above everyone else so you don't ever need to take those units to play a friendly game. Sure if you go to a tourny then go balls to the wall. Can you name me one codex (besides necrons possibly) that has almost ZERO bad units in it?
Ork codex has trash littering it all over, Codex IG has all sorts of garbage (Its IG not fething AM). But Eldar? realistically maybe howling banshees, but even they are ok compared to other units.
This is one of those complaints about the Eldar codex that makes absolutely no sense to me. Every codex should have every unit as a viable option. That the Eldar codex is close to this is not a bad thing in any way. To complain about that is to succumb to irrational envy. The problem is that other codexes lack internal balance. If the Eldar codex had a bunch of crap units that wouldn't fix the other units in the other codexes. Complaints about stuff being OP I get and calls for them to be brought back in line make total sense. They have too many fieldable (not OP, just fieldable) units as a complaint though.
You missed the entire point I was trying to make. Let me state it another way. When your codex has nothing BAD in it it makes you TFG when you TAKE one of the most OP things in your codex. Why do Eldar players NEED to take the Scatter Lasers on every Bike or take the D-scythes or the D-cannon Wraith Knight when you can have BS5 Guardians and AP0 Firedragons and Warlock Battery Packs for your farseer to cast invis on everything.
I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all
Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders
Ghazkuul wrote: Why do Eldar players NEED to take the Scatter Lasers on every Bike or take the D-scythes or the D-cannon Wraith Knight when you can have BS5 Guardians and AP0 Firedragons and Warlock Battery Packs for your farseer to cast invis on everything.
I'd like to see a "when cheese fails" 40k show where scatterbike spammers and the like get what's coming to them. It would be do a lot to lighten the mood around here
Ghazkuul wrote: Why do Eldar players NEED to take the Scatter Lasers on every Bike or take the D-scythes or the D-cannon Wraith Knight when you can have BS5 Guardians and AP0 Firedragons and Warlock Battery Packs for your farseer to cast invis on everything.
I'd like to see a "when cheese fails" 40k show where scatterbike spammers and the like get what's coming to them. It would be do a lot to lighten the mood around here
I still remember the old meme with the guy sitting on a swing set facepalming that said:
Brought 6 Helldrakes... still lost.( or something along those lines)
I haven't been able to find it recently though.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
Dman137 wrote: Unit is 1391pts and is;
Wolf lord w/TWSSTH with 2 wolves
3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each.
6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary
Chaplain on bike
3 level 2 librarians on bikes
28 models.
This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts
(Grabs Popcorn)
400 points of scouts is a lot more than what people would consider normal, and definitely worth mentioning. It wasn't necessarily this list that won NOVA. It was the usual suspects of 2+ re-rollable, Invisibility, and a really good player that knows how to use their list to counter their opponent.
NOVA does not use Highlander comp; it restricts how many sources from which a player can build their army. Personally, I disagree with some of NOVA's house rules (multi-trackers work in overwatch, blasts affect all levels, no nerf to invisibility) and feel like their ban on all superheavies goes too far and their changes to D-weapons don't go far enough. I prefer the ITC FAQ, and don't know enough about the Adepticon, LVO, and BAO rules to comment on them. What NOVA's missions boiled down to was traditional objectives for the primary and limited kill points (i.e. choose this unit and score a point if you kill it) for secondary. The ban on superheavies basically meant that a deathstar of some sort would take the win.
Do you know why Eldar have not been curbstomping every tournament since their new book was released? It's because of two simple reasons. First, many TO groups have adopted or changed their house rules in ways to specifically nerf Eldar. They had to do it to let other armies have a fighting chance. Second, many tournament Eldar players are guilty of relying too much on certain units as a crutch for their own deficiencies in the generalship department. Everyone who plays competitively knows exactly what kind of list Eldar are going to bring and has prepared counter-strategies to deal with Eldar. By the lists you've posted in the Army Lists section (especially this gem: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660633.page) OP, you're as guilty of this as anyone.
TL;DR Eldar aren't winning tournaments because people nerf them in house rules and many Eldar players cover up their ineptitude by spamming the same OP and broken units that are the subject of those nerfs.
did you see the player pack, the tables were covered in LOSBT and having a unit that's T5, 3+ cover save re-rolling, invisible, casts everything on a 2+, fearless the buffs go on and on and your telling me that this guy is a amazing player.? The list plays it self lol turbo boots up, multi-charge and then last turn spilt off into 9 units and grab objectives. Yeah real tactical genius lol
Well he is an amazing player and has the track record to back it up. He beat the two best daemon players in the country which is saying a lot as daemons are-were the top build over even eldar. He had two rhinos so it couldn't be all scouts but go on I love to follow along.
Dozer Blades wrote: Well he is an amazing player and has the track record to back it up. He beat the two best daemon players in the country which is saying a lot as daemons are-were the top build over even eldar. He had two rhinos so it couldn't be all scouts but go on I love to follow along.
Maybe one of those was the same player that "cheated" against Dman137 at Adepticon.
You are the most orkish person I've ever met. And I mean that as a compliment.
6000+
2500
2000
2000
I aren't think that. 
~3000 (Fully Painted)
Coming Soon!
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
5000 
