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Dman137 wrote:goobs is all you guys will ever be

And that's my new signature!

Dman137 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
so your try to say that lictor shame and this list are examples of skill.? Lmao you really need to look up what WAAC player is because that's what this player is and also those daemon players are the same thing

Lawlz.

Lictors? Lictors actually do require thought and tactics to use effectively. I was honestly surprised when someone won a GT using that list (thought it still had 5 Flyrants, I believe). Also, Daemons need to combine certain units and characters to get stupid combos, so you need to somewhat know what you're doing.

Eldar players do the following:

1. Ask yourself what you need to kill this turn.
2. Point your unit(s) at it.
3. Kill it.
4. Rinse and repeat.

Yeah lots of skill taking flyrants and mawlocks oh and 2++ re-roll yep sounds like great tactics lmao do you honestly even play the game or just sit there and complain.? Every event in the last year if not 2-3 years has been won by a WAAC player, and if you can't see that then idk what to tell you

Point to another unit in the Tyranid codex that is useable at a high-end competitive event. I'm genuinely curious as to what you would say.

master of ordinance wrote:Dman, the reason that you are labelled WAAC is because you constantly insist that Scatbikes and Wraithbrigade are not OP despite all the evidence contrary and then accuse others of being noobs who need to L2P because they cant beat you, despite having nothing that comes even close to the power of your units.

You then also insist that increasing the Wraithknight to even 400 points - where as it should be at least 550 - and taking only 1 in 3 heave weapons on your bikes - when in all honesty 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 would be fair - are stupid sugestions from butthurt players and will nerf these units too much to be playable.

You also regularly (from what you have written) take Scatbike spam and Wraithbrigade too casual games.

You ARE a WAAC player.

Quoted and Exalted for truth.

"WAAC" isn't a type of list, it's an attitude. From what you have posted in this thread and others, Dman137, you fit both that definition as well as a certain other three-letter acronym.

Eh, that makes no sense? How does pointing out to Dman why he is considered a WAAC player mean that I am some eejit who thinks they are funny?

Ooh ooh, the Mucolid! Lots of lists take them, must be pretty OP right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eh, that makes no sense? How does pointing out to Dman why he is considered a WAAC player mean that I am some eejit who thinks they are funny?

Honestly, I don't know, I was hoping UD would give something with a bit more flavour.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Ooh ooh, the Mucolid! Lots of lists take them, must be pretty OP right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eh, that makes no sense? How does pointing out to Dman why he is considered a WAAC player mean that I am some eejit who thinks they are funny?

Honestly, I don't know, I was hoping UD would give something with a bit more flavour.

A little something I came up with for my friends when we were discussing NOVA:

Six Flying Hive Tyrants: 1440 points. One unit of Mucolid Spores: 45 points. The look on an Eldar cheesemonger's face when your Mawloc eats a unit of their precious Scatbikers: Priceless. Some things in Warhammer 40,000 you just can't kill. For everything else, there's Mawlocs.

 Frozocrone wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eh, that makes no sense? How does pointing out to Dman why he is considered a WAAC player mean that I am some eejit who thinks they are funny?

Honestly, I don't know, I was hoping UD would give something with a bit more flavour.

Nope sorry, I cant help you there

isnt it the point that imperium of man is in essence one side, so elder, crons, tau, all need to be much stronger stand alone, plus isnt that just supported in the story, all really is needed is some rules to super cheese swarms for orks and nids and all is well.
Personally im cool with it but then i could have fun with no points lol and thats probably more the exception.

on a unrelated note wtf is wrong with camping scouts??! surely that is the point.

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
isnt it the point that imperium of man is in essence one side, so elder, crons, tau, all need to be much stronger stand alone, plus isnt that just supported in the story, all really is needed is some rules to super cheese swarms for orks and nids and all is well.
Personally im cool with it but then i could have fun with no points lol and thats probably more the exception.

on a unrelated note wtf is wrong with camping scouts??! surely that is the point.

No the fluff about nids is that in a planetary defense there is 20000 pts of Nid attackers vs 2000 pts of anything else defenders. This is , surprisingly enough, translated pretty accurately in the codex that is hands down the worst codex in the game and it was still in 6th edition, only tournaments won't allow the tyranid player to actively represent this by playing more points than his opponent.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
isnt it the point that imperium of man is in essence one side, so elder, crons, tau, all need to be much stronger stand alone, plus isnt that just supported in the story, all really is needed is some rules to super cheese swarms for orks and nids and all is well.
Personally im cool with it but then i could have fun with no points lol and thats probably more the exception.

on a unrelated note wtf is wrong with camping scouts??! surely that is the point.

No the fluff about nids is that in a planetary defense there is 20000 pts of Nid attackers vs 2000 pts of anything else defenders. This is , surprisingly enough, translated pretty accurately in the codex that is hands down the worst codex in the game and it was still in 6th edition, only tournaments won't allow the tyranid player to actively represent this by playing more points than his opponent.

Uh, CSM are worse. Tyranids are bad, definitely. CSM are worse....

 krodarklorr wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Zognob Gorgoff wrote:
isnt it the point that imperium of man is in essence one side, so elder, crons, tau, all need to be much stronger stand alone, plus isnt that just supported in the story, all really is needed is some rules to super cheese swarms for orks and nids and all is well.
Personally im cool with it but then i could have fun with no points lol and thats probably more the exception.

on a unrelated note wtf is wrong with camping scouts??! surely that is the point.

No the fluff about nids is that in a planetary defense there is 20000 pts of Nid attackers vs 2000 pts of anything else defenders. This is , surprisingly enough, translated pretty accurately in the codex that is hands down the worst codex in the game and it was still in 6th edition, only tournaments won't allow the tyranid player to actively represent this by playing more points than his opponent.

Uh, CSM are worse. Tyranids are bad, definitely. CSM are worse....

Sorry but not even close. Here is why:

Tyranids have only one ranged ap2 weapon in the whole codex, and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids do not have a single ap3 ranged weapon in their whole codex.
Tyrnaids have only one 2+ save in the whole codex and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids have only one invulnerable save in the whole codex, only a named MC can take it and it works only when in hth.
Tyranid weapons that shoot more than 24" are: Venom Cannons, strangler weapons, spore mine launchers and rupture cannons. Of these only the rupture is a non blast and neither of these has an ap greater than 4.
Tyranids don't have a single eternal warrior in the whole codex. Not even Swarmlord.
Tyranids have only ONE independent character in the whole codex and it costs 125 pts naked. It cannot take anything to make it move 12" like a bike or a juggernaut or jump packs, it cannot take any armor improvement, no ap2 weapon whatsoever, no invulnerable save.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that has psykers and cannot take ANY rulebook powers whatsoever. They are also the only army to be excluded from Daemonology powers because reasons.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that do not even have a single desperate ally.
Up until 6th edition Tyranids weren't even allowed to buy fortifications or weapon emplacements.
Tyranids are the only army in the game with no access to any kind of AV model.
Tyranids can have only 3 units with the equivalent of assault grenades in the game. 2 of the 3 are T4 models with a 5+ armor.
Tyranids are the army that have close combat dedicated MC's with weapon skill 3 and ini 2.
Tyranids are the only army in the whole game that have a blanket rule that's a blatant nerf. CSM do have a useless rule in SnP Rubrics, but at least it lets them charge after double tapping. Instinctive behavior is a nerf banket rule for no reason whatsoever that was left over from 5th edition. Necrons lost their own blanket nerf (auto lose at 25% models) because stupid fluffy rules are a thing of the past. But nop, Tyranids got to have their own stupid rule stick.
Tyranids still have pyrovores. I think this last one settles it.

I can go on forever. Things you consider staple in every other books like 2+ armors, ap3/2 weapons, long range weapons, invul saves, bikes etc, Tyranids just don't have them. Tyranids are the only army that lacks identity in the game. Nothing knows what it is supposed to do. Tyranids can't have shooting goodness (range, volume of fire, str, ap, ignore cover, melta etc) because "they are not a shooting based army" and they don't have any HtH goodness either (the whole army just loses hands down to anything with a powerfist). At least CSM have an identity and they have some really good units (helldrakes, demon princes, obliterators, plague marines, nurgle spawns). All Tyranids have is the Flyrant, and I'm pretty sure it was a design team's error, they never thought it would actually become a useful model.

And take into account that CSM codex is 2012, it is only natural that it is outdated. Tyranids codex is a 2014 one. There is simply no excuse for the Tyranid codex.

Meanwhile Lictor shame beats jetbike eldar and most other armies easily.

topaxygouroun i wrote:


Sorry but not even close. Here is why:

Tyranids have only one ranged ap2 weapon in the whole codex, and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids do not have a single ap3 ranged weapon in their whole codex.
Tyrnaids have only one 2+ save in the whole codex and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids have only one invulnerable save in the whole codex, only a named MC can take it and it works only when in hth.
Tyranid weapons that shoot more than 24" are: Venom Cannons, strangler weapons, spore mine launchers and rupture cannons. Of these only the rupture is a non blast and neither of these has an ap greater than 4.
Tyranids don't have a single eternal warrior in the whole codex. Not even Swarmlord.
Tyranids have only ONE independent character in the whole codex and it costs 125 pts naked. It cannot take anything to make it move 12" like a bike or a juggernaut or jump packs, it cannot take any armor improvement, no ap2 weapon whatsoever, no invulnerable save.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that has psykers and cannot take ANY rulebook powers whatsoever. They are also the only army to be excluded from Daemonology powers because reasons.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that do not even have a single desperate ally.
Up until 6th edition Tyranids weren't even allowed to buy fortifications or weapon emplacements.
Tyranids are the only army in the game with no access to any kind of AV model.
Tyranids can have only 3 units with the equivalent of assault grenades in the game. 2 of the 3 are T4 models with a 5+ armor.
Tyranids are the army that have close combat dedicated MC's with weapon skill 3 and ini 2.
Tyranids are the only army in the whole game that have a blanket rule that's a blatant nerf. CSM do have a useless rule in SnP Rubrics, but at least it lets them charge after double tapping. Instinctive behavior is a nerf banket rule for no reason whatsoever that was left over from 5th edition. Necrons lost their own blanket nerf (auto lose at 25% models) because stupid fluffy rules are a thing of the past. But nop, Tyranids got to have their own stupid rule stick.
Tyranids still have pyrovores. I think this last one settles it.

I can go on forever. Things you consider staple in every other books like 2+ armors, ap3/2 weapons, long range weapons, invul saves, bikes etc, Tyranids just don't have them. Tyranids are the only army that lacks identity in the game. Nothing knows what it is supposed to do. Tyranids can't have shooting goodness (range, volume of fire, str, ap, ignore cover, melta etc) because "they are not a shooting based army" and they don't have any HtH goodness either (the whole army just loses hands down to anything with a powerfist). At least CSM have an identity and they have some really good units (helldrakes, demon princes, obliterators, plague marines, nurgle spawns). All Tyranids have is the Flyrant, and I'm pretty sure it was a design team's error, they never thought it would actually become a useful model.

And take into account that CSM codex is 2012, it is only natural that it is outdated. Tyranids codex is a 2014 one. There is simply no excuse for the Tyranid codex.

Right. I use units such as Warriors, Biovores, Trygons, Carnifexes, Swarmlord, and avoid spamming Mawlocs and Flyrants. You know what happens? I've defeated Tau, Eldar, CSM, Space Marines, Harlequins, Astra Militarum, and Daemons on numerous occasions. You obviously just don't know what to do with Tyranids to make them work.

I'm not arguing Tyranids are good, not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm stating they have a lot more they can pull off with their codex, and CSM have very little outside of a few very specific builds (usually allying with Daemons, or pure Nurgle lists), which still don't stack up well.

 krodarklorr wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:


Sorry but not even close. Here is why:

Tyranids have only one ranged ap2 weapon in the whole codex, and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids do not have a single ap3 ranged weapon in their whole codex.
Tyrnaids have only one 2+ save in the whole codex and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids have only one invulnerable save in the whole codex, only a named MC can take it and it works only when in hth.
Tyranid weapons that shoot more than 24" are: Venom Cannons, strangler weapons, spore mine launchers and rupture cannons. Of these only the rupture is a non blast and neither of these has an ap greater than 4.
Tyranids don't have a single eternal warrior in the whole codex. Not even Swarmlord.
Tyranids have only ONE independent character in the whole codex and it costs 125 pts naked. It cannot take anything to make it move 12" like a bike or a juggernaut or jump packs, it cannot take any armor improvement, no ap2 weapon whatsoever, no invulnerable save.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that has psykers and cannot take ANY rulebook powers whatsoever. They are also the only army to be excluded from Daemonology powers because reasons.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that do not even have a single desperate ally.
Up until 6th edition Tyranids weren't even allowed to buy fortifications or weapon emplacements.
Tyranids are the only army in the game with no access to any kind of AV model.
Tyranids can have only 3 units with the equivalent of assault grenades in the game. 2 of the 3 are T4 models with a 5+ armor.
Tyranids are the army that have close combat dedicated MC's with weapon skill 3 and ini 2.
Tyranids are the only army in the whole game that have a blanket rule that's a blatant nerf. CSM do have a useless rule in SnP Rubrics, but at least it lets them charge after double tapping. Instinctive behavior is a nerf banket rule for no reason whatsoever that was left over from 5th edition. Necrons lost their own blanket nerf (auto lose at 25% models) because stupid fluffy rules are a thing of the past. But nop, Tyranids got to have their own stupid rule stick.
Tyranids still have pyrovores. I think this last one settles it.

I can go on forever. Things you consider staple in every other books like 2+ armors, ap3/2 weapons, long range weapons, invul saves, bikes etc, Tyranids just don't have them. Tyranids are the only army that lacks identity in the game. Nothing knows what it is supposed to do. Tyranids can't have shooting goodness (range, volume of fire, str, ap, ignore cover, melta etc) because "they are not a shooting based army" and they don't have any HtH goodness either (the whole army just loses hands down to anything with a powerfist). At least CSM have an identity and they have some really good units (helldrakes, demon princes, obliterators, plague marines, nurgle spawns). All Tyranids have is the Flyrant, and I'm pretty sure it was a design team's error, they never thought it would actually become a useful model.

And take into account that CSM codex is 2012, it is only natural that it is outdated. Tyranids codex is a 2014 one. There is simply no excuse for the Tyranid codex.

Right. I use units such as Warriors, Biovores, Trygons, Carnifexes, Swarmlord, and avoid spamming Mawlocs and Flyrants. You know what happens? I've defeated Tau, Eldar, CSM, Space Marines, Harlequins, Astra Militarum, and Daemons on numerous occasions. You obviously just don't know what to do with Tyranids to make them work.

I'm not arguing Tyranids are good, not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm stating they have a lot more they can pull off with their codex, and CSM have very little outside of a few very specific builds (usually allying with Daemons, or pure Nurgle lists), which still don't stack up well.

I do not believe you in the slightest. Especially the part where you are beating Eldar with Trygons and Swarmlord. If you do, good for you. But you don't unless your opponents are on the 200 storm guardian footslogging plan.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:


Sorry but not even close. Here is why:

Tyranids have only one ranged ap2 weapon in the whole codex, and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids do not have a single ap3 ranged weapon in their whole codex.
Tyrnaids have only one 2+ save in the whole codex and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids have only one invulnerable save in the whole codex, only a named MC can take it and it works only when in hth.
Tyranid weapons that shoot more than 24" are: Venom Cannons, strangler weapons, spore mine launchers and rupture cannons. Of these only the rupture is a non blast and neither of these has an ap greater than 4.
Tyranids don't have a single eternal warrior in the whole codex. Not even Swarmlord.
Tyranids have only ONE independent character in the whole codex and it costs 125 pts naked. It cannot take anything to make it move 12" like a bike or a juggernaut or jump packs, it cannot take any armor improvement, no ap2 weapon whatsoever, no invulnerable save.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that has psykers and cannot take ANY rulebook powers whatsoever. They are also the only army to be excluded from Daemonology powers because reasons.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that do not even have a single desperate ally.
Up until 6th edition Tyranids weren't even allowed to buy fortifications or weapon emplacements.
Tyranids are the only army in the game with no access to any kind of AV model.
Tyranids can have only 3 units with the equivalent of assault grenades in the game. 2 of the 3 are T4 models with a 5+ armor.
Tyranids are the army that have close combat dedicated MC's with weapon skill 3 and ini 2.
Tyranids are the only army in the whole game that have a blanket rule that's a blatant nerf. CSM do have a useless rule in SnP Rubrics, but at least it lets them charge after double tapping. Instinctive behavior is a nerf banket rule for no reason whatsoever that was left over from 5th edition. Necrons lost their own blanket nerf (auto lose at 25% models) because stupid fluffy rules are a thing of the past. But nop, Tyranids got to have their own stupid rule stick.
Tyranids still have pyrovores. I think this last one settles it.

I can go on forever. Things you consider staple in every other books like 2+ armors, ap3/2 weapons, long range weapons, invul saves, bikes etc, Tyranids just don't have them. Tyranids are the only army that lacks identity in the game. Nothing knows what it is supposed to do. Tyranids can't have shooting goodness (range, volume of fire, str, ap, ignore cover, melta etc) because "they are not a shooting based army" and they don't have any HtH goodness either (the whole army just loses hands down to anything with a powerfist). At least CSM have an identity and they have some really good units (helldrakes, demon princes, obliterators, plague marines, nurgle spawns). All Tyranids have is the Flyrant, and I'm pretty sure it was a design team's error, they never thought it would actually become a useful model.

And take into account that CSM codex is 2012, it is only natural that it is outdated. Tyranids codex is a 2014 one. There is simply no excuse for the Tyranid codex.

Right. I use units such as Warriors, Biovores, Trygons, Carnifexes, Swarmlord, and avoid spamming Mawlocs and Flyrants. You know what happens? I've defeated Tau, Eldar, CSM, Space Marines, Harlequins, Astra Militarum, and Daemons on numerous occasions. You obviously just don't know what to do with Tyranids to make them work.

I'm not arguing Tyranids are good, not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm stating they have a lot more they can pull off with their codex, and CSM have very little outside of a few very specific builds (usually allying with Daemons, or pure Nurgle lists), which still don't stack up well.

I do not believe you in the slightest. Especially the part where you are beating Eldar with Trygons and Swarmlord. If you do, good for you. But you don't unless your opponents are on the 200 storm guardian footslogging plan.

Nope, I've beaten MSUs of all Shuricannon bikes (my friend group likes to refrain from using scatter lasers, though I think Shuricannons are worse in some cases), and one of my friends always brings Aspect Shrines with Warp Spyders, Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers, Dire Avengers, with the occasional Avatar of Khaine thrown in. In fact, my Swarmlord in one combat killed the Avatar of Khaine and a Wraithlord, and a next turn wiped out all of his Wraithguard.

Choose to believe me if you want, but I've done very well with my "normal" lists of Tyranids, more-so than my girlfriend has with Nurgle marines.

Nidz are really sucking hind tit now.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eh, that makes no sense? How does pointing out to Dman why he is considered a WAAC player mean that I am some eejit who thinks they are funny?

Maybe because he didn't know what the word meant?

 krodarklorr wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:


Sorry but not even close. Here is why:

Tyranids have only one ranged ap2 weapon in the whole codex, and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids do not have a single ap3 ranged weapon in their whole codex.
Tyrnaids have only one 2+ save in the whole codex and only one specific MC can take it.
Tyranids have only one invulnerable save in the whole codex, only a named MC can take it and it works only when in hth.
Tyranid weapons that shoot more than 24" are: Venom Cannons, strangler weapons, spore mine launchers and rupture cannons. Of these only the rupture is a non blast and neither of these has an ap greater than 4.
Tyranids don't have a single eternal warrior in the whole codex. Not even Swarmlord.
Tyranids have only ONE independent character in the whole codex and it costs 125 pts naked. It cannot take anything to make it move 12" like a bike or a juggernaut or jump packs, it cannot take any armor improvement, no ap2 weapon whatsoever, no invulnerable save.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that has psykers and cannot take ANY rulebook powers whatsoever. They are also the only army to be excluded from Daemonology powers because reasons.
Tyranids are the only army in the game that do not even have a single desperate ally.
Up until 6th edition Tyranids weren't even allowed to buy fortifications or weapon emplacements.
Tyranids are the only army in the game with no access to any kind of AV model.
Tyranids can have only 3 units with the equivalent of assault grenades in the game. 2 of the 3 are T4 models with a 5+ armor.
Tyranids are the army that have close combat dedicated MC's with weapon skill 3 and ini 2.
Tyranids are the only army in the whole game that have a blanket rule that's a blatant nerf. CSM do have a useless rule in SnP Rubrics, but at least it lets them charge after double tapping. Instinctive behavior is a nerf banket rule for no reason whatsoever that was left over from 5th edition. Necrons lost their own blanket nerf (auto lose at 25% models) because stupid fluffy rules are a thing of the past. But nop, Tyranids got to have their own stupid rule stick.
Tyranids still have pyrovores. I think this last one settles it.

I can go on forever. Things you consider staple in every other books like 2+ armors, ap3/2 weapons, long range weapons, invul saves, bikes etc, Tyranids just don't have them. Tyranids are the only army that lacks identity in the game. Nothing knows what it is supposed to do. Tyranids can't have shooting goodness (range, volume of fire, str, ap, ignore cover, melta etc) because "they are not a shooting based army" and they don't have any HtH goodness either (the whole army just loses hands down to anything with a powerfist). At least CSM have an identity and they have some really good units (helldrakes, demon princes, obliterators, plague marines, nurgle spawns). All Tyranids have is the Flyrant, and I'm pretty sure it was a design team's error, they never thought it would actually become a useful model.

And take into account that CSM codex is 2012, it is only natural that it is outdated. Tyranids codex is a 2014 one. There is simply no excuse for the Tyranid codex.

Right. I use units such as Warriors, Biovores, Trygons, Carnifexes, Swarmlord, and avoid spamming Mawlocs and Flyrants. You know what happens? I've defeated Tau, Eldar, CSM, Space Marines, Harlequins, Astra Militarum, and Daemons on numerous occasions. You obviously just don't know what to do with Tyranids to make them work.

I'm not arguing Tyranids are good, not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm stating they have a lot more they can pull off with their codex, and CSM have very little outside of a few very specific builds (usually allying with Daemons, or pure Nurgle lists), which still don't stack up well.

I would have to agree with this notion. I play both Tyranids and CSM and I do not struggle as much with my 'nids. The Tyranids have much better synergy then CSM. They have more tricks and the ability to utilize said tricks. Now if you use IA:13, that's a different story.

 Suicidal.Simian wrote:

I would have to agree with this notion. I play both Tyranids and CSM and I do not struggle as much with my 'nids. The Tyranids have much better synergy then CSM. They have more tricks and the ability to utilize said tricks. Now if you use IA:13, that's a different story.

What you mean to say is that Tyranids have synergy. Period. CSM lack very much so in this regard.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Suicidal.Simian wrote:

I would have to agree with this notion. I play both Tyranids and CSM and I do not struggle as much with my 'nids. The Tyranids have much better synergy then CSM. They have more tricks and the ability to utilize said tricks. Now if you use IA:13, that's a different story.

What you mean to say is that Tyranids have synergy. Period. CSM lack very much so in this regard.

Tyranids have synergy? Tyranids have the exact opposite from synergy. They need to work one for the other to avoid killing themselves, not to gain any kind of benefits. This is not called synergy, this is called desperate measures. Neither tyranids nor CSM have synergy. CSM though do have specialized units that perform well in a single field. You want to screw MEQs? Helldrakes + rubriks. Want to screw cover saves? Helldrakes and noise marines. Want to screw mid-armor? Autohavocs and forgefiends. Want fast hth army? Nurgle bikers, spawns + juggerlord, khorne raptors + icon, maulerfiends. Want to open AV13-14? Predators/oblits. Want to go elite? Termicide + oblits. Want to go horde? Plague zombies. Want to hold objectives? Plague marines. If you know what you want to do, CSM can give you the units to do it. The problem with CSM is that these units are far too expensive to be able to cover multiple cases. Tyranids on the other hand have zero idea what they are supposed to be doing. You want to play fast close combat? You are stuck wiht t4 units with 5+ armor and no grenades. You want durable close combat? Good luck getting there on your 6" move monsters and even if you do, good luck beating the enemy with Ws3, Ini 2 and 3 attacks on your 120+ pt monster. You want to screw MeQs? Brainleech. Want to screw cover saves? Brainleech. Want to screw mid armor? Brainleech! Want to screw av13-14? Too bad, you are out of luck. When the answer to everything is "Brainleech", then you got yourself a bad, bad codex.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Meanwhile Lictor shame beats jetbike eldar and most other armies easily.

In one tournament format, where invisibility is nerfed and everything is about maelstrom missions

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Suicidal.Simian wrote:

I would have to agree with this notion. I play both Tyranids and CSM and I do not struggle as much with my 'nids. The Tyranids have much better synergy then CSM. They have more tricks and the ability to utilize said tricks. Now if you use IA:13, that's a different story.

What you mean to say is that Tyranids have synergy. Period. CSM lack very much so in this regard.

Tyranids have synergy? Tyranids have the exact opposite from synergy. They need to work one for the other to avoid killing themselves, not to gain any kind of benefits. This is not called synergy, this is called desperate measures. Neither tyranids nor CSM have synergy. CSM though do have specialized units that perform well in a single field. You want to screw MEQs? Helldrakes + rubriks. Want to screw cover saves? Helldrakes and noise marines. Want to screw mid-armor? Autohavocs and forgefiends. Want fast hth army? Nurgle bikers, spawns + juggerlord, khorne raptors + icon, maulerfiends. Want to open AV13-14? Predators/oblits. Want to go elite? Termicide + oblits. Want to go horde? Plague zombies. Want to hold objectives? Plague marines. If you know what you want to do, CSM can give you the units to do it. The problem with CSM is that these units are far too expensive to be able to cover multiple cases. Tyranids on the other hand have zero idea what they are supposed to be doing. You want to play fast close combat? You are stuck wiht t4 units with 5+ armor and no grenades. You want durable close combat? Good luck getting there on your 6" move monsters and even if you do, good luck beating the enemy with Ws3, Ini 2 and 3 attacks on your 120+ pt monster. You want to screw MeQs? Brainleech. Want to screw cover saves? Brainleech. Want to screw mid armor? Brainleech! Want to screw av13-14? Too bad, you are out of luck. When the answer to everything is "Brainleech", then you got yourself a bad, bad codex.

Again, I'm not saying Tyranids ave a good codex. Quite the opposite. I'm just saying I have dominated with my casual Nids, whereas everyone I know who plays CSM have not.

You've also mentioned all of the things that suck in the nid book, but have failed to mention anything that is decent. Tervigons are good Synapse nodes. And before you say anything, Synapse provides army-wide Fearless, which is very good. They also spawn free models, if even once per game, it's free models. Keep it next to Venomthropes for a 3+/2+ cover save and give it Regen, you're good to go. Tyrannofexes are pretty good, especially with E-grubs or Shreddershard beetles and the Acid Spray. Mawlocs are obviously good. Biovores are stupid good, especially in the formation. Exocrines, while short ranged, have a 6 shot plasma gun, or a large blast plasma cannon without the gets hot. Venomthropes for army-wide 3+/2+ cover, and giving your gaunts a 5+ cover in the open makes them annoying to deal with. Warriors provide a good synapse unit, are difficult to remove if played right, and will shred most other infantry in CC. Devilgaunts are hilarious. Give them Outflank with your Hive Tyrant and laugh. Also works with a Tervigon so you can start spawning an army in their deployment zone. Lictors, while I personally don't like them, have great synergy with units such as Mawlocs and Rippers. The Hive Crone is pretty nice, with it's S8 Vector strike and Template weapon. Then, the new models, the Toxicrene is rather scary, especially when dropped in the new Tyrannocyte.

Call it as you will, Tyranids have a lot more decent units than CSM do. And I reiterate, if you think they're that bad, you are either playing in a waaaaaay too competitive meta (and I feel sorry for you), or you need to reevaluate how you're playing this game.

Dman is the most specialist kind of special we have within the ocmmunity: Hes the kind of special that is so convinced of his own self-superiority that when 95% of the forum is telling him hes wrong, he takes it as a reaffirmation of how correct he is, because only Dman is intelligent enough to see things for what they are. Only Dman is clearsighted and level headed enough to fairly analyze balance. Only Dman knows better, but fear not, because Dman is a kind and loving benefactor, he will lead us unwashed masses of heathens and lepers to a deeper understanding of the game, he will show us the error of our ways and set us on the true path.

Dman, in case there was any doubt in your mind, that post was sarcastic, you've got a lot to learn, stop pretending otherwise.

 krodarklorr wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Suicidal.Simian wrote:

I would have to agree with this notion. I play both Tyranids and CSM and I do not struggle as much with my 'nids. The Tyranids have much better synergy then CSM. They have more tricks and the ability to utilize said tricks. Now if you use IA:13, that's a different story.

What you mean to say is that Tyranids have synergy. Period. CSM lack very much so in this regard.

Tyranids have synergy? Tyranids have the exact opposite from synergy. They need to work one for the other to avoid killing themselves, not to gain any kind of benefits. This is not called synergy, this is called desperate measures. Neither tyranids nor CSM have synergy. CSM though do have specialized units that perform well in a single field. You want to screw MEQs? Helldrakes + rubriks. Want to screw cover saves? Helldrakes and noise marines. Want to screw mid-armor? Autohavocs and forgefiends. Want fast hth army? Nurgle bikers, spawns + juggerlord, khorne raptors + icon, maulerfiends. Want to open AV13-14? Predators/oblits. Want to go elite? Termicide + oblits. Want to go horde? Plague zombies. Want to hold objectives? Plague marines. If you know what you want to do, CSM can give you the units to do it. The problem with CSM is that these units are far too expensive to be able to cover multiple cases. Tyranids on the other hand have zero idea what they are supposed to be doing. You want to play fast close combat? You are stuck wiht t4 units with 5+ armor and no grenades. You want durable close combat? Good luck getting there on your 6" move monsters and even if you do, good luck beating the enemy with Ws3, Ini 2 and 3 attacks on your 120+ pt monster. You want to screw MeQs? Brainleech. Want to screw cover saves? Brainleech. Want to screw mid armor? Brainleech! Want to screw av13-14? Too bad, you are out of luck. When the answer to everything is "Brainleech", then you got yourself a bad, bad codex.

Again, I'm not saying Tyranids ave a good codex. Quite the opposite. I'm just saying I have dominated with my casual Nids, whereas everyone I know who plays CSM have not.

You've also mentioned all of the things that suck in the nid book, but have failed to mention anything that is decent. Tervigons are good Synapse nodes. And before you say anything, Synapse provides army-wide Fearless, which is very good. They also spawn free models, if even once per game, it's free models. Keep it next to Venomthropes for a 3+/2+ cover save and give it Regen, you're good to go. Tyrannofexes are pretty good, especially with E-grubs or Shreddershard beetles and the Acid Spray. Mawlocs are obviously good. Biovores are stupid good, especially in the formation. Exocrines, while short ranged, have a 6 shot plasma gun, or a large blast plasma cannon without the gets hot. Venomthropes for army-wide 3+/2+ cover, and giving your gaunts a 5+ cover in the open makes them annoying to deal with. Warriors provide a good synapse unit, are difficult to remove if played right, and will shred most other infantry in CC. Devilgaunts are hilarious. Give them Outflank with your Hive Tyrant and laugh. Also works with a Tervigon so you can start spawning an army in their deployment zone. Lictors, while I personally don't like them, have great synergy with units such as Mawlocs and Rippers. The Hive Crone is pretty nice, with it's S8 Vector strike and Template weapon. Then, the new models, the Toxicrene is rather scary, especially when dropped in the new Tyrannocyte.

Call it as you will, Tyranids have a lot more decent units than CSM do. And I reiterate, if you think they're that bad, you are either playing in a waaaaaay too competitive meta (and I feel sorry for you), or you need to reevaluate how you're playing this game.

I did say things that are good about Tyranids, I said "Brainleech" multiple times

Tervigons are very, very, very bad. You pay 195 pts for a naked footslogging MC with a 3+ save. You also take away one of your HQ slots, which means one less flyrant. Then you propose a venomthrope (45) and regeneration (30) that make up for a 270 pts investment and a HQ + elite slot that will get you some durable backfield synapse and a total of 10-15 naked termagants. This is not how good armies are made, bro. If you want to make into Troop you have to pay extra tax of 120 pts minimum for 30 naked termagants that are completely useless, or add 15 devourers on top to make the unit useful (60 pts) and a Hive commander on your flyrant to make they termagant blob actually come in range (15 pts). Overall a 475 point plan to get a one-use-only semi-ranged dakka unit and some backfield synapse. No way, thanks. I'm not even discussing the fact that if the tervigon dies it will kill way more than the termagants it spawned the whole game.

Tyranofexes are good for an all comers list. More so if podded. Only for all comer lists though. There is a reason the only tournament list is pentyrant. Mawlocs are the only other unit that it's good apart from the flyrant. 2 good units out of a whole codex =/= a good codex. Biovores are a mediocre artillery unit, wyverns and thunderfire cannons are on top of the list, biovores are way below that. Exocrine is a MC that could shoot 2 weapons yet it only has one. It is also BS3, medium ranged and the only ap2 shooting in the whole book. And 170 pts for an ap2 pieplate or 3 plasma hits is not a good bargain no matter how you look at it. Warriors are most definitely NOT difficult to remove "if played right" and most definitely NOT beat anything in hth unless you pay 3 times the points fo your target unit, and then it's still arguable. Warriors are the laughingstock of the game for god's sake. Anything Tau, blastmasters, hive guards, powerfists, perfect timing dark reapers, you name it. Heck, 4 krak missiles will kill the venomthrope and then I can drop a str 8 pieplate (or a forgefiend) to collect me some tyranid tears. Lictors do not have synergy with mawlocs as you need to have your lictors on the ground turn one AND within 6" of the enemy and actually have the enemy NOT move their army more than 6" away from the lictors AND have the lictors survive 1-2 turns of shooting and/or hth to maybe roll your 3+ and make a mawloc drop. If that's your idea of synergy, then I am most definitely glad I am not playing in your area. As for the Toxicrene, it was good, became instantly useless when the WK turned into a GC and besides it's the only thing in the whole game that can commit suicide in a single dice roll. Way to go, toxicrene. It is also fun to mention that Toxicrene along with the drop pods are not codex units. If you add them to the comparison is like adding crimson slaughter to the CSM codex and then it's a completely different conversation.

I could see an argument for LAN, tyrranofexes and shrikes being kind of good in semi-competitive games. Anything above that, just no. And Tervigons/warriors are just abysmal, you are losing all credibility if you are including them as "tyranid good units".

As for the advice, my meta is mixed. We do have plenty of Tau, couple of gladius marines, various fluffy marine players with triple land raiders, 1 eldar / iyanden/harlequin player (has 3 complete and different painted armies :O), 2-3 Guard players, 2-3 Tyranids, 1 decurion Necron, a lot of imperial knights etc etc. Glad to see how your "good units" are going to perform here. Maybe YOU should re-evaluate what the game actuall involves rather than me re-evaluating my Tyranid game.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

I did say things that are good about Tyranids, I said "Brainleech" multiple times

Tervigons are very, very, very bad. You pay 195 pts for a naked footslogging MC with a 3+ save. You also take away one of your HQ slots, which means one less flyrant. Then you propose a venomthrope (45) and regeneration (30) that make up for a 270 pts investment and a HQ + elite slot that will get you some durable backfield synapse and a total of 10-15 naked termagants. This is not how good armies are made, bro. If you want to make into Troop you have to pay extra tax of 120 pts minimum for 30 naked termagants that are completely useless, or add 15 devourers on top to make the unit useful (60 pts) and a Hive commander on your flyrant to make they termagant blob actually come in range (15 pts). Overall a 475 point plan to get a one-use-only semi-ranged dakka unit and some backfield synapse. No way, thanks. I'm not even discussing the fact that if the tervigon dies it will kill way more than the termagants it spawned the whole game.

Tyranofexes are good for an all comers list. More so if podded. Only for all comer lists though. There is a reason the only tournament list is pentyrant. Mawlocs are the only other unit that it's good apart from the flyrant. 2 good units out of a whole codex =/= a good codex. Biovores are a mediocre artillery unit, wyverns and thunderfire cannons are on top of the list, biovores are way below that. Exocrine is a MC that could shoot 2 weapons yet it only has one. It is also BS3, medium ranged and the only ap2 shooting in the whole book. And 170 pts for an ap2 pieplate or 3 plasma hits is not a good bargain no matter how you look at it. Warriors are most definitely NOT difficult to remove "if played right" and most definitely NOT beat anything in hth unless you pay 3 times the points fo your target unit, and then it's still arguable. Warriors are the laughingstock of the game for god's sake. Anything Tau, blastmasters, hive guards, powerfists, perfect timing dark reapers, you name it. Heck, 4 krak missiles will kill the venomthrope and then I can drop a str 8 pieplate (or a forgefiend) to collect me some tyranid tears. Lictors do not have synergy with mawlocs as you need to have your lictors on the ground turn one AND within 6" of the enemy and actually have the enemy NOT move their army more than 6" away from the lictors AND have the lictors survive 1-2 turns of shooting and/or hth to maybe roll your 3+ and make a mawloc drop. If that's your idea of synergy, then I am most definitely glad I am not playing in your area. As for the Toxicrene, it was good, became instantly useless when the WK turned into a GC and besides it's the only thing in the whole game that can commit suicide in a single dice roll. Way to go, toxicrene. It is also fun to mention that Toxicrene along with the drop pods are not codex units. If you add them to the comparison is like adding crimson slaughter to the CSM codex and then it's a completely different conversation.

I could see an argument for LAN, tyrranofexes and shrikes being kind of good in semi-competitive games. Anything above that, just no. And Tervigons/warriors are just abysmal, you are losing all credibility if you are including them as "tyranid good units".

As for the advice, my meta is mixed. We do have plenty of Tau, couple of gladius marines, various fluffy marine players with triple land raiders, 1 eldar / iyanden/harlequin player (has 3 complete and different painted armies :O), 2-3 Guard players, 2-3 Tyranids, 1 decurion Necron, a lot of imperial knights etc etc. Glad to see how your "good units" are going to perform here. Maybe YOU should re-evaluate what the game actuall involves rather than me re-evaluating my Tyranid game.

*shrug* Stop playing Tyranids then, if you're going to do nothing but complain about them. I won't even bother talking tactics with you, as it's pointless. Your mind is made up. Fact of the matter is, I have people that can vouch for my Tyranids, and I've had a lot of success with them, even against lists that nids struggle against (Tau, I'm looking at you). Do I want them to get a new codex? Of course, I reeeaaally don't like this current codex, especially with the 7.5 ed. power creep.

P.S. Every list I run includes Warriors, and they always do well. Heck, I'll go as far as to say I'll run a Tyranid Prime with them occasionally, and he's taken on things like Chaos Lords and Ork Warbosses, and come out on top every time. I also build my list around at least a 30 man unit of Termagaunts. You wanna know what's killed Warp Spyders, Fire Dragons, Talos Pain Engines, shredded Space Marines, and killed a Terminator Chaos Lord in one go? Termagaunts. Wanna know what's killed Terminators in overwatch? Termagaunts.

Also, you lose all credibility if you diss things like Warriors but think Shrikes are okay. Seriously, they're terrible.

Dude, really. Shrikes move 12". They pay less for upgrades (adrenal, flesh hooks, toxin sacs). Again, they move 12". If you play melee warriors and do well but you think shrikes are bad I really can't say anything more. How do you get your warriors into hth EVER? Are people actually walking non-strength 8 low armor melee units into your footslogging warriors? Really, enlighten me, how exactly do you beat Tau with warriors? What list does your opponent play? Do they have a single pathfinder/drone team and a skyray? Because that's all it takes to kill your warriors from 36" away no less. What list do you play? Because there is not a single one army that can deal with tyranid warriors better than Tau can. honestly, without any kind of trolling intention, how do you do it?

Also, I can dig that you could beat chaos lords with a tyranid prime. It is extremely difficult, but I could argue it's doable. Maybe the lord isn't nurgle and riding a bike. Maybe it's not khorne and riding a juggernaught holding a demon axe. Maybe it's a footslogging, non terminator armor chaos lord. So maybe you could kill one. But Ork Warbosses have 2+ armor and str 10. You are just bullshitting big time.

And no thanks, I have no intention to stop playing with my Tyranids. I have quite the fun playing with them and mind you, I only own 3 flyrants and one of them doesn't even have guns, so I am really playing all the colors of the rainbow when it comes to tyranids. I do own every single model multiple of times and I have played with them for the biggest part of the last 4-5 years.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Dude, really. Shrikes move 12". They pay less for upgrades (adrenal, flesh hooks, toxin sacs). Again, they move 12". If you play melee warriors and do well but you think shrikes are bad I really can't say anything more. How do you get your warriors into hth EVER? Are people actually walking non-strength 8 low armor melee units into your footslogging warriors? Really, enlighten me, how exactly do you beat Tau with warriors? What list does your opponent play? Do they have a single pathfinder/drone team and a skyray? Because that's all it takes to kill your warriors from 36" away no less. What list do you play? Because there is not a single one army that can deal with tyranid warriors better than Tau can. honestly, without any kind of trolling intention, how do you do it?

Also, I can dig that you could beat chaos lords with a tyranid prime. It is extremely difficult, but I could argue it's doable. Maybe the lord isn't nurgle and riding a bike. Maybe it's not khorne and riding a juggernaught holding a demon axe. Maybe it's a footslogging, non terminator armor chaos lord. So maybe you could kill one. But Ork Warbosses have 2+ armor and str 10. You are just bullshitting big time.

And no thanks, I have no intention to stop playing with my Tyranids. I have quite the fun playing with them and mind you, I only own 3 flyrants and one of them doesn't even have guns, so I am really playing all the colors of the rainbow when it comes to tyranids. I do own every single model multiple of times and I have played with them for the biggest part of the last 4-5 years.

Yes, Shrikes move 12". If you're going to run a fast melee unit, might as well take Raveners, because they can take mostly the same upgrades and have Fleet built in. Shrikes also die to Bolt guns. Also, my Warriors get into combat because of things like Drop pod lists, Deep Striking Howling Banshees, and of course, Orks and CSM running at me. And yeah, a Chaos Lord on a bike with MoN (how my girlfriend runs him) is easy for my Tyranid Prime. I equip him with Boneswords, so a single 6 and the Chaos Lord is gone. As for the Warboss? Most people don't bring him in Mega Armor. Most people bring him with a bunch of Nobz in a Trukk of Battlewagon, or run him on a bike. Either way, he has a 4+ armor, and the Prime strikes before him, again, only needing a single 6 and he's dead.

And that's not the mindset you need to be in with Tyranids. "Aaak, this army can easily deal with this unit!". Yes, Tau can deal with Warriors. But they can't deal with Warriors when a Flyrant, Mawloc, Trygon, and outflanking Termagaunts are all right in their face. In the meantime, my Biovores eat their infantry alive with sheer volume of wounds. Pathfinders really aren't an issue, as we have plenty of flying templates to deal with them.

Your information is not correct. Raveners cannot take any biomorphs, so no adrenal glands, no flesh hooks, no poison. It is wierd, I agree, but they cannot. Only thing raveners can take is rending claws. They are slightly faster than the shrikes, but then again they suffer from Feed IB with leadership 6. Shrikes are synapse, fearless and Ld 10. Also, flesh hooks. It makes all the difference in the world.

Shrikes do die to boltguns, only they have a lot of wounds to compensate for it. Shrikes die to str 8 most of the time, and every army has it in abundance.

As for the nurgle chaos lord. If you are running boneswords and your girlfriend is running her 12" moving chaos lord without a sigil of corruption into your tyranid prime then she is doing it really really wrong. The chaos lord you are describing is faster than your tyranid prime, it should have no reason whatsoever to run itself in there, it can just ignore your warrior unit and shoot it with autohavocs/forgefiend instead. Or the casual vindicator blast. Ork warbosses in battlewagons can still take 2+ armor. Ork warbosses with 4+ armor in trukks have no place in the game and killing them with your 145 pt Tyranid prime means little to nothing, as the accompanying boyz will slaughter your unit anyways, unless you are bringing 9 warriors where you get to pay 500+ pts in a footslogging unit and orks do actually have lootaz.

Tau will have no problem whatsoever with the list you mentioned. A trygon does nothing until turn 3, outflanking termagants do nothing until turn 2 and then you can just park your Riptides in the flanks and mostly ignore them. In the very last, Tau has interceptor against your termagants. A Mawloc is nice against missilesides only if they spread them to the maximum 2" cheesing (see Broadside - Drone - Broadside - Drone - Broadside, deployment like this) you only get to hit 1 of them, and that's supposing you roll a hit in the first place. A flyrant is a flyrant, one skyray will kill one flyrant or a unit of missilesides will do even without markerlight support. He can save your warriors for turn 2-3 because they are not reaching anything Tau with their 6" movement. Biovores are the only thing that can threaten fire warriors/ drones but then again, skyrays can fire str 8 ap3 no cover shots without even needing LoS from 72" away. Good riddance, biovores.

I really really think your playing group is on the very very soft side. That's not a bad thing in the slightest, it just makes you see good units where they do not exist.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Your information is not correct. Raveners cannot take any biomorphs, so no adrenal glands, no flesh hooks, no poison. It is wierd, I agree, but they cannot. Only thing raveners can take is rending claws. They are slightly faster than the shrikes, but then again they suffer from Feed IB with leadership 6. Shrikes are synapse, fearless and Ld 10. Also, flesh hooks. It makes all the difference in the world.

Shrikes do die to boltguns, only they have a lot of wounds to compensate for it. Shrikes die to str 8 most of the time, and every army has it in abundance.

As for the nurgle chaos lord. If you are running boneswords and your girlfriend is running her 12" moving chaos lord without a sigil of corruption into your tyranid prime then she is doing it really really wrong. The chaos lord you are describing is faster than your tyranid prime, it should have no reason whatsoever to run itself in there, it can just ignore your warrior unit and shoot it with autohavocs/forgefiend instead. Or the casual vindicator blast. Ork warbosses in battlewagons can still take 2+ armor. Ork warbosses with 4+ armor in trukks have no place in the game and killing them with your 145 pt Tyranid prime means little to nothing, as the accompanying boyz will slaughter your unit anyways, unless you are bringing 9 warriors where you get to pay 500+ pts in a footslogging unit and orks do actually have lootaz.

Tau will have no problem whatsoever with the list you mentioned. A trygon does nothing until turn 3, outflanking termagants do nothing until turn 2 and then you can just park your Riptides in the flanks and mostly ignore them. In the very last, Tau has interceptor against your termagants. A Mawloc is nice against missilesides only if they spread them to the maximum 2" cheesing (see Broadside - Drone - Broadside - Drone - Broadside, deployment like this) you only get to hit 1 of them, and that's supposing you roll a hit in the first place. A flyrant is a flyrant, one skyray will kill one flyrant or a unit of missilesides will do even without markerlight support. He can save your warriors for turn 2-3 because they are not reaching anything Tau with their 6" movement. Biovores are the only thing that can threaten fire warriors/ drones but then again, skyrays can fire str 8 ap3 no cover shots without even needing LoS from 72" away. Good riddance, biovores.

I really really think your playing group is on the very very soft side. That's not a bad thing in the slightest, it just makes you see good units where they do not exist.

You can say what you will, the original point of this argument is that Tyranids (while not good, as I've stated) are better than CSM in a casual environment as well as any competitive environment. Yeah, if you're playing casual nids against people who spam Missilesides, Riptides, and Skyrays, you're gonna have a bad time. But that's not what this game is about, in my opinion. I play in a group of good players, that specifically field what they think is cool and refrain from cheddar builds. In this environment, my Nids thrive, which is enough for me to enjoy them. The minute you look at tournaments or pick-up games is the minute you throw balance out the window (which can be said for most armies, not just Nids). So say what you want, the original argument is that Tyranids are better than CSM, and I'm sure everyone will agree with me.

CSM and BA are the two worst codices in the game, imo. This makes Tyranids above those two by definition.

Dude you are taking this too seriously, no need to Tyranids are doing better than CSM at tournaments indeed. This is a problem with both books though, with helldrakes nerfed and most other CSM choices sub par. Tyranids are only doing good because of the brainleech devourers, it is actually a codex:brainleech. Sometimes having more mediocre units overall is better than having one good unit and all the rest sucking. Believe me I would know, I have way too many tyranids than I can fit in a list yet still I look at my shelves and find my options ridiculously limited.

It is also worth to notice that CSM is a 2012 book with 3 formations and Tyranids are a 2014 book with 3 extra full model/rule releases mid-end 2014 and a total of 20ish or so formations. The fact that they are still comparable for the worst army in the game should go a long way into telling you why I think CSM have more options.

Martel732 wrote:
CSM and BA are the two worst codices in the game, imo. This makes Tyranids above those two by definition.

I know BA aren't super good, but at least they have a more coherent book than Nids. In a casual setting, BA can do very well. So I'd put them at least on the same tier as Tyranids.