Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
CSM and BA are the two worst codices in the game, imo. This makes Tyranids above those two by definition.

I know BA aren't super good, but at least they have a more coherent book than Nids. In a casual setting, BA can do very well. So I'd put them at least on the same tier as Tyranids.

Tyranids played properly will stomp all over the BA. BA may be coherent, but the 7th ed codex destroyed every power build from 5th, and gave nothing in return. No librarian conclave, no grav cents, not a single defining marine unit from 7th ed. We are the loyalist CSM. In fact, CSM might be a bit better.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Dude you are taking this too seriously, no need to Tyranids are doing better than CSM at tournaments indeed. This is a problem with both books though, with helldrakes nerfed and most other CSM choices sub par. Tyranids are only doing good because of the brainleech devourers, it is actually a codex:brainleech. Sometimes having more mediocre units overall is better than having one good unit and all the rest sucking. Believe me I would know, I have way too many tyranids than I can fit in a list yet still I look at my shelves and find my options ridiculously limited.

It is also worth to notice that CSM is a 2012 book with 3 formations and Tyranids are a 2014 book with 3 extra full model/rule releases mid-end 2014 and a total of 20ish or so formations. The fact that they are still comparable for the worst army in the game should go a long way into telling you why I think CSM have more options.

....uhh, wut? How am I taking this too seriously? I'm having a conversation with you, that is all.

And CSM have the same amount of terrible units. Kharn, Lucius, heck even Abbadon is sub-par at best, Regular marines are meh, cultists are only good as plague zombies, which requires you to bring Typhus, who's expensive. Their Land Raider is terrible, as well as Khorne Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Possessed, Warp Talons, Terminators, Mutilators, Defilers, Helbrutes, and Daemon Princes. Bikes are only decent because of MoN, but are still meh. Spawn are okay, if you spam them, and even then, meh. Heldrakes are still good, but they won't carry your army like they did in 6th. Raptors are only good because they can take Meltaguns. Havocs are Devastators with absolutely no shooting buffs whatsoever, and no ATSKNF. Plus they cost about the same. Oblits are good, but are still LD8 with no fearless.

I would totally be on board with agreeing with you if, in fact, CSM actually had a handful of sub-par units. At this point, I hope someday they can live up to those expectations, but as it stands, there is so much useless stuff in that codex it's baffling.

", and no ATSKNF"

That's a buff in many circumstances.

Martel732 wrote:
", and no ATSKNF"

That's a buff in many circumstances.

On a heavy weapons team? If devastators run away, they can auto-regroup and fire their Grav weapons at full BS the next turn. Havocs (minus the fact that they can't take grav weapons) will be useless for a whole turn.

So yeah, it is a blessing, sometimes. Not in the case of a heavy weapons team.

The difficulty in determining the worst codex seems to come from there being multiple definitions of the meaning of "worst".

The tyranids have one strong build and the rest of the codex is beyond garbage.

CSM have overpriced specialised units that have no synergy.

BA have no defining traits and lack special toys even vanilla marines get.

DE have no characters and die in a light breeze.

What it means to be the worst gets tossed around with evidence such as ally abuse for BA and DE and mono-build flyrants for 'nids being thrown in as evidence that these codexes are not the worst. I think these codexes should all just be classified as "bad" and we can get back on topic.

Also, when is ATSKNF ever a hindrance?

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
", and no ATSKNF"

That's a buff in many circumstances.

On a heavy weapons team? If devastators run away, they can auto-regroup and fire their Grav weapons at full BS the next turn. Havocs (minus the fact that they can't take grav weapons) will be useless for a whole turn.

so yeah, it is a blessing, sometimes. Not in the case of a heavy weapons team.

True, not for a heavy weapon team, but haven't used a devastator is a very long time.

Martel732 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
", and no ATSKNF"

That's a buff in many circumstances.

On a heavy weapons team? If devastators run away, they can auto-regroup and fire their Grav weapons at full BS the next turn. Havocs (minus the fact that they can't take grav weapons) will be useless for a whole turn.

so yeah, it is a blessing, sometimes. Not in the case of a heavy weapons team.

True, not for a heavy weapon team, but haven't used a devastator is a very long time.

Well, in your case I don't blame you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 the Signless wrote:
I think these codexes should all just be classified as "bad" and we can get back on topic.

Agreed.

Maybe 4 X lascannon devs work in some lists. They have good firepower/pt but bad durability/pt. But I like heavy weapons on things like attack bikes that keep up with the rest of the units.

"Also, when is ATSKNF ever a hindrance?"

I usually want my units swept so I can shoot the enemy more. I don't run BA as an assault army, because feth assault in 7th. However, real codices do have some assault units like TWC and so I'd like to be able to shoot them on my turn guaranteed. I can't do that if they are locked up with a stupid tactical squad because one loser survived.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Hes trying to argue its just as broken as Eldar, if not moreso, therefore people should stop complaining about Eldar.

What hes missing is that Nova GT has a different meta than the game at large, in that they use what can really only be described as house rules in an attempt to balance the game, and as such its not really comparable to the games he plays with his friends.

Also, its an 1850pt tournament, so 'the rest is all scouts' means that almost 500 points of the list was invested in scouts, which I dont think anyone will really complain about (scouts are good, but not broken).

Beyond that, he also doesn't mention that the list is constructed from *THREE* Detachments, whereas Eldar cheese comes from a standalone codex.

I wouldn't try to argue that eldar aren't op but the fact that the list was made from 3 detachments doesn't matter surely? SM of all variants effectively have a giant book made up from all chapters which makes this possible. It's just the rules.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Hes trying to argue its just as broken as Eldar, if not moreso, therefore people should stop complaining about Eldar.

What hes missing is that Nova GT has a different meta than the game at large, in that they use what can really only be described as house rules in an attempt to balance the game, and as such its not really comparable to the games he plays with his friends.

Also, its an 1850pt tournament, so 'the rest is all scouts' means that almost 500 points of the list was invested in scouts, which I dont think anyone will really complain about (scouts are good, but not broken).

Beyond that, he also doesn't mention that the list is constructed from *THREE* Detachments, whereas Eldar cheese comes from a standalone codex.

I wouldn't try to argue that eldar aren't op but the fact that the list was made from 3 detachments doesn't matter surely? SM of all variants effectively have a giant book made up from all chapters which makes this possible. It's just the rules.

Except you have to fork over the $$ to get said rulebooks. Nope.

 ColdSadHungry wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Hes trying to argue its just as broken as Eldar, if not moreso, therefore people should stop complaining about Eldar.

What hes missing is that Nova GT has a different meta than the game at large, in that they use what can really only be described as house rules in an attempt to balance the game, and as such its not really comparable to the games he plays with his friends.

Also, its an 1850pt tournament, so 'the rest is all scouts' means that almost 500 points of the list was invested in scouts, which I dont think anyone will really complain about (scouts are good, but not broken).

Beyond that, he also doesn't mention that the list is constructed from *THREE* Detachments, whereas Eldar cheese comes from a standalone codex.

I wouldn't try to argue that eldar aren't op but the fact that the list was made from 3 detachments doesn't matter surely? SM of all variants effectively have a giant book made up from all chapters which makes this possible. It's just the rules.

For convenience and costs sake its really better to have it all in one codex.

Some tournaments cap lists as 'single source' I.E. you can only build a list from a single codex, some go further and say 'single detachment' meaning you can build your list from only a single formation, or a single CAD, or a single 'Decurion' style formation, no allies, etc. In these formats, Eldar reigns supreme.

Single source. I like that. It shuts up the IoM haters, at any rate.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Some tournaments cap lists as 'single source' I.E. you can only build a list from a single codex, some go further and say 'single detachment' meaning you can build your list from only a single formation, or a single CAD, or a single 'Decurion' style formation, no allies, etc. In these formats, Eldar reigns supreme.

I dunno, in that setting, I feel like Necrons might put up a decent fight. Especially since a lot of tourneys limit the number of GCs and SHVs you can take.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Single source. I like that. It shuts up the IoM haters, at any rate.

Solo 2016!

Single source also stop the Skitarii from stealing all the Flesh Tearer's drop pods.

 krodarklorr wrote:


Solo 2016!

I have legitimately never played a game using more than one codex at time (well aside from one or two odd times where I played some orks as Blood Axe mercenaries to supplement a Space Marine Scout force). So I support this. It does bone a couple factions like Inquisition though.

And yes I do remember your thread

Yo Martel! I'd like to see a BA take on that Thunderdome list. Park about 1000pts of ICs in a 15-strong DC squad and just abuse the hell out of Invis, Forewarning, and Sanctuary.

Weight of fire will plink off Invis and 3+/3++/5+++. You can multiassault Scatterbikes and wreck WKs with ID weapons and Quickening. If your DC squad gets chewed up, just pawn your ICs off to a second squad you keep in reserve. You won't get T5 or 2+ Jink but maybe it's a worthwhile tradeoff for FNP and a bigger squad.

It's power-gamey to the max but I'd enjoy seeing your Eldar buddies get suprised for a a change

Yoyoyo wrote:
Yo Martel! I'd like to see a BA take on that Thunderdome list. Park about 1000pts of ICs in a 15-strong DC squad and just abuse the hell out of Invis, Forewarning, and Sanctuary.

Weight of fire will plink off Invis and 3+/3++/5+++. You can multiassault Scatterbikes and wreck WKs with ID weapons and Quickening. If your DC squad gets chewed up, just pawn your ICs off to a second squad you keep in reserve. You won't get T5 or 2+ Jink but maybe it's a worthwhile tradeoff for FNP and a bigger squad.

It's power-gamey to the max but I'd enjoy seeing your Eldar buddies get suprised for a a change

Somehow I don't see this working at all, but then again I have no clue what a thunderdome is either.

It was just a massive biker deathstar unit based off T5, invisibility, hit and run, a rerollable 2+ Jink and multiassault.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/1st-Aaron-Aleong-NovaOpen-2015.pdf

Sammael
DA Chaplain on bike
RW Command Squad on Bikes
Wolf Guard Battle Leader on TWM
3x Iron Priests on TWM
3x Biker Librarians (Conclave)
Rune Priest Biker

So that's 10 ICs (1183pts) and 295pts of Command Squad. They did have FNP through an Apothecary though.

BA have no good way to get invis.

Martel732 wrote:
BA have no good way to get invis.

Without allies that is, again leading back to the IoM Battle Bros shenanigans.

I think that the vanilla codex with 3 ML2 Librarins with Jump packs could get it pretty easily though.

I'm talking mono-BA. I'm always talking mono-BA. Units that aren't in C:BA don't exist to me when I'm talking C:BA.

If we're using vanilla units at all, we might as well have a vanilla list, because BA adds nothing to them.

That's ultimately a flawed argument for a mono-build. You could take 3x RG Librarians with Jump in a Conclave. Stick them with 45x Death Company for T1 Shrouded/Stealth and psychic buffs. It's a decent idea.

2x BA Librarians w/JP, ML2 - 210pts
45x DC - 900pts and some upgrades
1x Dante - 220pts
2x Scouts - 110pts
1x RG Conclave (3x ML2 Librarians w/JP) - 315pts

With Misfortune and Prescience your 15x DC can put down a WK in a single turn. With Invisibility, 18x Scatterbikes kill ~1.3 DC in one turn of shooting. ONE. If he's got two Farseers, you have more WC. With 500 points free, what's left that's going to hard counter you? Maybe Seer council but you get a 4+ DTW on any debuff from a Warlock.

But you're apparently telling me, this "might as well be a Vanilla list"?

Yoyoyo wrote:
That's ultimately a flawed argument for a mono-build. You could take 3x RG Librarians with Jump in a Conclave. Stick them with 45x Death Company for T1 Shrouded/Stealth and psychic buffs. It's a decent idea.

2x BA Librarians w/JP, ML2 - 210pts
45x DC - 900pts and some upgrades
1x Dante - 220pts
2x Scouts - 110pts
1x RG Conclave (3x ML2 Librarians w/JP) - 315pts

With Misfortune and Prescience your 15x DC can put down a WK in a single turn. With Invisibility, 18x Scatterbikes kill ~1.3 DC in one turn of shooting. ONE. If he's got two Farseers, you have more WC. With 500 points free, what's left that's going to hard counter you? Maybe Seer council but you get a 4+ DTW on any debuff from a Warlock.

But you're apparently telling me, this "might as well be a Vanilla list"?

Don't bother trying to point out perfectly valid arguments to Martel, as far as he's concerned, because he chooses to play his army like it's still 5th edition, it's GW's and everyone elses fault for playing 7th!

Experiment 626 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
That's ultimately a flawed argument for a mono-build. You could take 3x RG Librarians with Jump in a Conclave. Stick them with 45x Death Company for T1 Shrouded/Stealth and psychic buffs. It's a decent idea.

2x BA Librarians w/JP, ML2 - 210pts
45x DC - 900pts and some upgrades
1x Dante - 220pts
2x Scouts - 110pts
1x RG Conclave (3x ML2 Librarians w/JP) - 315pts

With Misfortune and Prescience your 15x DC can put down a WK in a single turn. With Invisibility, 18x Scatterbikes kill ~1.3 DC in one turn of shooting. ONE. If he's got two Farseers, you have more WC. With 500 points free, what's left that's going to hard counter you? Maybe Seer council but you get a 4+ DTW on any debuff from a Warlock.

But you're apparently telling me, this "might as well be a Vanilla list"?

Don't bother trying to point out perfectly valid arguments to Martel, as far as he's concerned, because he chooses to play his army like it's still 5th edition, it's GW's and everyone elses fault for playing 7th!

Indeed, I get that impression from him a lot.

I can't help myself! I enjoy arguing with him

While arguing if IG or BA are worse can be fun, the fact that to play some of the factions you either have to play them other armies or use FW is not a good thing. At least imo. If an eldar or necron player can build an eldar army or a necron army and play with it, so should a IG or BA player. But right now playing any of those comes down to, why try to support suck with good stuff, when you can support good stuff with good stuff.

Makumba wrote:
While arguing if IG or BA are worse can be fun, the fact that to play some of the factions you either have to play them other armies or use FW is not a good thing. At least imo. If an eldar or necron player can build an eldar army or a necron army and play with it, so should a IG or BA player. But right now playing any of those comes down to, why try to support suck with good stuff, when you can support good stuff with good stuff.

Both IG & BA's can play decently well enough on their own outside of cut throat 'Tournament' styled lists. CSM's less so due to everything about them being slightly over costed & their options being highly limited, but still, as long as your opponent isn't being a complete toolbag you can have some good fun games.

Using the "you can take allies" argument runs into a flaw because any army can be allied with anything. If allies are included into the discussion, it can be argued that CSM and non-flyrant tyranids are now OP because they can ally in a wraithknight and scatterbikes while also taking the skyhammer.

While some ally combinations do work better (such as the mentioned Librarians + Death Company or the DA + SW that seems to be making its rounds in Dman's threads), it is not evidence that supports a codex's power level.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
That's ultimately a flawed argument for a mono-build. You could take 3x RG Librarians with Jump in a Conclave. Stick them with 45x Death Company for T1 Shrouded/Stealth and psychic buffs. It's a decent idea.

2x BA Librarians w/JP, ML2 - 210pts
45x DC - 900pts and some upgrades
1x Dante - 220pts
2x Scouts - 110pts
1x RG Conclave (3x ML2 Librarians w/JP) - 315pts

With Misfortune and Prescience your 15x DC can put down a WK in a single turn. With Invisibility, 18x Scatterbikes kill ~1.3 DC in one turn of shooting. ONE. If he's got two Farseers, you have more WC. With 500 points free, what's left that's going to hard counter you? Maybe Seer council but you get a 4+ DTW on any debuff from a Warlock.

But you're apparently telling me, this "might as well be a Vanilla list"?

Don't bother trying to point out perfectly valid arguments to Martel, as far as he's concerned, because he chooses to play his army like it's still 5th edition, it's GW's and everyone elses fault for playing 7th!

Paying to win is not to everyone's taste. Neither is diluting your preferred army into a beard for a stronger one. While your example list is interesting it would require me to buy another book. Once I've done that then I suddenly have a lot of options available. A lot of BETTER options. Suddenly the BA portion starts shrinking until there is nothing left but red marines. If you're going to use the SM Codex why bother using the BA's at all? I play Blood Angels because I want to play Blood Angels. It would be nice if GW wanted me to play Blood Angels too. They don't they want me to. They want me to play the Imperium of Man, so I can purchase a dozen codexes and related models. Some players have bought into that BS. Just because I refuse to, does not mean I'm living in the past.

If I want to win I can always throw my Eldar down and make the other player cry. What I want is to play my Blood Angels against any other army and have it decided by player skill. Not his wallet.